{"conversationCode":"864-005","tapeNumber":864,"conversationNumber":5,"identifier":"37-wht-conversation-864-005","startDateTime":"1973-02-27T21:21:00.000Z","endDateTime":"1973-02-27T21:36:00.000Z","startDate":"27-Feb-1973","startTime":"4:21 PM","endDate":"27-Feb-1973","endTime":"4:36 PM","dateCertainty":"certain","timeCertainty":"certain","participants":"Nixon, Richard M. (President); Flanigan, Peter M.; Raimondi, Luigi; White House photographer; Sanchez, Manolo;","description":"On February 27, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon, Peter M. Flanigan, Luigi Raimondi, White House photographer, and Manolo Sanchez met in the Oval Office of the White House from 4:21 pm to 4:36 pm. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 864-005 of the White House Tapes.","locationCode":"OVAL","recordingDevice":"Oval Office","latitudeEstimated":38.8974,"longitudeEstimated":-77.0374,"chronCode":"5.4","chronRelease":"Fifth Chronological Release: Part IV","chronReleaseDate":"8-Dec-2010","aogpRelease":null,"aogpSegment":null,"lastModified":"2015-07-27T17:04:10.235Z","findingAid":"Conversation No. 864-5\n\nDate: February 27, 1973\nTime: 4:21 pm-4:36 pm\nLocation: Oval Office\n\nThe President met with Luigi Raimondi and Peter M. Flanigan; members of the press and the\nWhite House photographer were present at the beginning of the meeting.\n\n       Greetings\n              -Congratulations\n\n       Photo session\n              -Seating arrangement\n\n       Departure for Rome\n              -Time\n\n       Diplomatic reception\n\n       [Photograph session]\n\f                                              -6-\n\n                   NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM\n\n                                                              Conversation No. 864-5 (cont’d)\n\nManolo Sanchez entered at an unknown time after 4:21 pm.\n\n       Refreshments\n\nSanchez left at an unknown time before 4:36 pm.\n\n       American young people\n             -Maturity\n             -Level of education\n             -Awareness\n             -Commitment\n             -Hopefulness\n\n       Catholic Church\n              -Future\n              -Visits to Diocese, bishops\n                      -Confidence\n              -Debates\n                      -Doctrine\n                      -Traditional, modern\n                      -Metaphysics\n                      -Relativism [?]\n                              -Truth\n\n       Vietnam\n             -Message for pope\n             -Conclusion of war\n\n       World problems\n             -Peace\n             -Latin America\n                    -Role of Church\n                           -Advocacy of social change\n                           -Association with radical political causes\n\n       US cardinals\n             -Cardinal James F. E. McIntyre\n\f                                          -7-\n\n            NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM\n\n                                                  Conversation No. 864-5 (cont’d)\n\n               -Reactionary\n               -Conservative\n       -Cardinal Francis Spellman\n       -Cardinal Terence Cook\n       -Cardinal John Krol\n       -Attitudes toward change\n               -Avoidance of radicalism\n\nCatholic Church\n       -Force of stability\n       -Radicals\n               -Use of Church\n                       -Destruction\n               -Response of Rome\n       -Effects of radicalism\n\nLatin America\n       -US role\n              -Moderate\n       -Radical reformers’ visits to US\n              -Encouragement, help\n       -Southern hemisphere\n              -Moderate US role\n       -Vatican role\n              -US as example\n              -Political orientation\n\nVatican\n       -Relations with US\n       -Contacts with US\n               -Exchange of information\n\nCatholic schools\n       -President’s role\n       -Tax bill\n              -Wilbur D. Mills\n              -Russell B. Long\n                      -Support\n\f                                              -8-\n\n                    NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM\n\n                                                             Conversation No. 864-5 (cont’d)\n\n               -Budget\n               -[Pope Paul VI] Giovanni Battista Montini\n               -President’s success compared with John F. Kennedy\n                      -Role of Protestant\n\n       Farewells\n             -Kindness\n             -Wish for more meetings\n\n       Gifts\n               -Cuff links\n                       -Seal\n                       -Attire\n\n       Rome\n\nRaimondi and Flanigan left at 4:36 pm.","filename":["864-005.mp3"],"tapeStart":"","tapeEnd":"","participantsList":["Nixon, Richard M. (President)","Flanigan, Peter M.","Raimondi, Luigi","White House photographer","Sanchez, Manolo"],"prevCode":"864-004","nextCode":"864-006","transcript":[{"start":26.2,"end":26.28,"text":"Oh!"},{"start":52.1,"end":52.76,"text":"Thank you very much."},{"start":80.5,"end":81.17,"text":"All right."},{"start":83.33,"end":87.37,"text":"All right."},{"start":120.47,"end":121.19,"text":"Thank you very much"},{"start":149.37,"end":153.96,"text":"It was such a pleasant and satisfactory experience for me."},{"start":154.19,"end":173.02,"text":"First of all, to experience the understanding of the government and the efforts and the cooperation, it's something which, to my confidence,"},{"start":174.06,"end":176.84,"text":"Well, if you are ready to take something, all right."},{"start":177.82,"end":179.66,"text":"Or you prefer tea, tea or coffee?"},{"start":180.26,"end":180.44,"text":"Tea."},{"start":180.48,"end":180.58,"text":"Tea."},{"start":180.64,"end":186.19,"text":"We'll both have tea."},{"start":186.57,"end":200.47,"text":"It's something which is ingrained in the American people, the sense of modern spiritual values, which they always bring, they may have now."},{"start":201.63,"end":214.23,"text":"Christ, let's say, sometimes, like periods of youth, but I was telling Mr. Flanagan that youth nowadays is much better."},{"start":214.47,"end":223.59,"text":"We find it in our colleges, in our seminaries, much more serious and mature than the time of youth."},{"start":227.31,"end":243.95,"text":"that they are more dedicated, more aware and more serious, you know, that they don't see it light-heartedly, in the sense of that they really want to be sure."},{"start":244.61,"end":248.86,"text":"They want to dedicate their life, they want to know what."},{"start":251.63,"end":258.99,"text":"And once they enjoy it, they do it knowing that they are going to commit it."},{"start":259.29,"end":261.24,"text":"So there is encouragement."},{"start":263.39,"end":266.04,"text":"I am much more hopeful than when I came here."},{"start":267.38,"end":271.76,"text":"What is the future remnants of the church's development?"},{"start":272.1,"end":273.44,"text":"We discussed that on occasion."},{"start":274.9,"end":284.89,"text":"How do you see the future?"},{"start":292.71,"end":293.41,"text":"Yes, sir."},{"start":293.67,"end":309.82,"text":"In a more positive, more constructive sense, I try to be in touch with the people going around visiting the diocese divisions."},{"start":312.98,"end":327.85,"text":"Because to give them confidence that the institution is still there and is still meaning something, and their response is excellent, very faithful."},{"start":327.95,"end":333.85,"text":"I think that there have been some disorientations, darkenings."},{"start":335.24,"end":349.47,"text":"in the doctrinal level we had experienced, it was some sort of, let's say, philosophical shock or shock in the sense of conflict of mentality."},{"start":350.79,"end":356.73,"text":"From the traditional to the very modern and almost"},{"start":361.72,"end":366.83,"text":"The mentality present is something which is inconceivable."},{"start":367.13,"end":371.67,"text":"Life and thought are in constant motion without endings."},{"start":371.85,"end":374.57,"text":"They are fixed."},{"start":374.65,"end":386.2,"text":"This elimination of the metaphysical, the distinction between being and living, living and, you know, yes,"},{"start":389.76,"end":395.32,"text":"Everything is instant, it's living, it's moving, it's developing."},{"start":395.94,"end":403.01,"text":"There is no more expression."},{"start":403.39,"end":417.36,"text":"And then I had to come into it with those fixed notions and ideas and principles, which were a term of reference, of course."},{"start":417.85,"end":421.79,"text":"Now they find themselves their own goods."},{"start":422.13,"end":424.07,"text":"Their own goodness."},{"start":424.09,"end":425.53,"text":"It's something living."},{"start":425.57,"end":428.55,"text":"It's nature, you know."},{"start":429.95,"end":439.88,"text":"I think this is leveling down to a more reasonable and more realistic way."},{"start":439.9,"end":444.78,"text":"Well, I was going to suggest that you were wrong."},{"start":452.39,"end":454.35,"text":"I'm glad after all these years we finally have the war over."},{"start":454.67,"end":472.42,"text":"And now we need this to, to vote our enemies to these great problems we have in the world, which he's greatly concerned about."},{"start":472.44,"end":477.58,"text":"I would raise only one caution that worries me."},{"start":483.45,"end":507.71,"text":"Latin America and some other areas, for the church to be an advocate of social change, I think, is very constructive, because for too long, as he recognizes, as you obviously do, the church was seen as simply a bastard for reaction."},{"start":512.17,"end":539.45,"text":"that those forces must be that the church and particularly the abled people in it must not be used by those elements that are so radical that they eventually would destroy the freedoms that we're so interested in that's what worries me and I understand that I don't take the it's kind of the shall we say"},{"start":542.11,"end":552.79,"text":"I mean, I have great admiration for Colonel McIntyre, who seems to be very reactionary, but he's really not."},{"start":552.88,"end":554.03,"text":"He just gives us all."},{"start":554.05,"end":555.8,"text":"And Spelman, I do well."},{"start":556.26,"end":557.44,"text":"Koch is more in the center."},{"start":558.26,"end":559.38,"text":"Kroll, perhaps, to the right."},{"start":559.4,"end":559.58,"text":"Koch."},{"start":559.62,"end":561.36,"text":"And that's good to have diversity."},{"start":561.74,"end":564.42,"text":"But it's taking those four, those four, all alone."},{"start":565.36,"end":568.32,"text":"I think all four, each in very degrees,"},{"start":571.22,"end":588.25,"text":"would see this problem of the bust of basically having the change occur, but not allow that change to be taken over by forces that destroy the churches that have lived so long."},{"start":590.28,"end":594.17,"text":"I mean, I am a great admirer of the way"},{"start":595.53,"end":604.14,"text":"that has lived so long and has kept civilization together even in the dark ages has fallen over us as a force of stability."},{"start":604.2,"end":612.52,"text":"And now, some of the radicals come in and use it for destructive purposes."},{"start":612.58,"end":624.03,"text":"I'm not trying to suggest, and with recent presumptions, suggest what the world should do about these things."},{"start":625.26,"end":626.92,"text":"And after all, they thought about it all."},{"start":627.64,"end":641.69,"text":"But as I look at the world from my layman's point of view, it's potentially a very, very dangerous situation in some areas because these"},{"start":650.41,"end":653.38,"text":"Well, I appreciate very much your understanding."},{"start":653.42,"end":655.85,"text":"We've talked before about this."},{"start":655.88,"end":659.05,"text":"But I may, if you allow."},{"start":659.25,"end":659.53,"text":"Sure."},{"start":665.19,"end":683.32,"text":"If these churchmen, let's say, in the United States had been a real moderating influence, even in Latin America, things could have gone much more easily out of hand."},{"start":683.42,"end":690.43,"text":"If they did not find that stability or influence in the hierarchy, you know,"},{"start":693.47,"end":703.31,"text":"And I know also because they came here, many, to find encouragement and help for their own purpose."},{"start":704.38,"end":707,"text":"And they did not find it."},{"start":707.02,"end":709.34,"text":"They did not find it, no."},{"start":709.42,"end":718.94,"text":"So that's been a real motivating influence in the hierarchy of the United States in the southern hemisphere."},{"start":719.02,"end":719.78,"text":"The hierarchy, yes, yes."},{"start":720.57,"end":722.17,"text":"And I think that it will continue."},{"start":722.23,"end":730.27,"text":"And I think that the U.S. President and the government can help you."},{"start":730.29,"end":741.29,"text":"I know that you personally feel that self-confidence and trust."},{"start":741.35,"end":748.72,"text":"But for general purposes, we have in the country, in Turkey, in Afghanistan,"},{"start":750.39,"end":757.62,"text":"look very much to the hierarchy, the attitude, and the disposition of the hierarchy of the United States."},{"start":758.02,"end":771.81,"text":"Therefore, as an example, as a model almost for all the others, if we had this disorientation in this country, that would have been tragic for the country."},{"start":778.95,"end":783.21,"text":"We would hope to maintain our very close contact with the bank."},{"start":783.23,"end":799.24,"text":"And working over these next four years, which is as long as I will be here, I hope you know this will be your long end of that."},{"start":799.28,"end":804.82,"text":"But we want to, it seems as a temporal, the spiritual forces must work together."},{"start":805.85,"end":816.24,"text":"We have separation of church and state, but I know the enormous influence the Catholic Church has on the world."},{"start":816.26,"end":817.06,"text":"It's an influence for good."},{"start":817.1,"end":823.07,"text":"Our influence, we also want to be for good."},{"start":823.09,"end":827.75,"text":"And by exchange of information, I think we contribute to this world in a great deal."},{"start":827.89,"end":832.53,"text":"Should I say how much is appreciated your personal interest in the Catholic schools and the Catholic system?"},{"start":833.81,"end":840.79,"text":"We're going to put that in, incidentally, and it'll be in our tax bill in about three weeks."},{"start":840.81,"end":844.32,"text":"We've got the leaders all lined up for it."},{"start":844.92,"end":851.12,"text":"Yes, I got Mills, you know, Congress and Mills and Senator Long, and they both agreed to support it."},{"start":852.24,"end":858.64,"text":"There'll be a little fight because some of the, you know, the people, but we have it in our budget, too."},{"start":860.86,"end":861.52,"text":"Thank you."},{"start":861.6,"end":867.99,"text":"I know that the Holy Father will appreciate very much because I have spoken to him and he is so pleased."},{"start":868.87,"end":871.21,"text":"Well, it's good too that a Protestant can do it."},{"start":871.27,"end":875.33,"text":"I can't have that relationship, but a Protestant can."},{"start":875.35,"end":878.29,"text":"And so I made the promise and I'll keep the promise."},{"start":879.07,"end":880.03,"text":"Keep the school alive."},{"start":880.05,"end":880.85,"text":"I will tell you."},{"start":882.82,"end":886.48,"text":"It was a great investment to assure a great"},{"start":910.4,"end":913.9,"text":"Well, I wish we could have seen each other more often, but..."},{"start":937.63,"end":938.73,"text":"Take your complex with you."},{"start":938.95,"end":940.57,"text":"This is the seal off."},{"start":940.67,"end":941.83,"text":"Because of your."},{"start":962.44,"end":963.1,"text":"Thank you."},{"start":963.18,"end":963.86,"text":"Thank you."}],"audioDurationSec":984,"audioFiles":[{"file":"864-005.mp3","bytes":23620151,"durationSec":984.04,"bitrate":192025,"missing":false}],"audioIsShared":false,"audioProbedAt":"2026-09-18T02:20:00.696Z","aiSummary":{"text":"President Nixon met with Archbishop Luigi Raimondi and Peter Flanigan, along with White House staff and photographers, to discuss the role of the Catholic Church in addressing global issues and social change, particularly in Latin America. Key topics included concerns about radical elements potentially exploiting the Church for destructive purposes, the importance of the Church as a force for stability, and the need for moderate US influence. Nixon also informed Raimondi about upcoming legislative support for Catholic schools, expressing confidence in the Church's positive global impact and his commitment to maintaining strong US-Vatican relations.","topics":["Catholic Church","Latin America","Social Change","Radicalism","US-Vatican Relations","Catholic Schools","Stability","Moderation"],"generatedAt":"2026-09-18T02:23:04.345Z"},"findingAidSource":"nixonlibrary.gov subject log (2024-05), reslice-v2","findingAidUpdatedAt":"2026-09-18T08:44:50.564Z","topicSlugs":["catholic-church","latin-america","social-change","radicalism","us-vatican-relations","catholic-schools","stability","moderation"],"audio":["https://nixon.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/audio/864-005.mp3"],"url":"https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/864-005","nixonLibraryUrl":"https://www.nixonlibrary.gov/white-house-tapes/864/conversation-864-005","license":"Public domain (U.S. Government work). AI-generated fields (transcript, aiSummary) are provided as-is without warranty."}