Conversation 864-009

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How are you?

I'm taking a little more careful look at myself.

And then, mostly sun.

I mean, I had some, from the forest and a little game.

Then I keep up with the sun.

It was harmless, wherever it comes from.

It was chasing the sun.

It was a very different success.

How long have you lived in California?

Oh, ever since I have been, I've been four times to Florida and once to California.

uh three days each floor uh the fellow downstairs

How does that stop?

How do you ever try?

Well, I don't want to do it myself.

I said I never tried.

I never heard you say that.

I just told you the other day that Fina was trying to get along with a drug.

Maybe she's been trying.

That's a lie.

That's why I had you.

I said, you know, you're supposed to be and you have the same, same plane.

He has a, he has a, he has a, he has a, he has a, he has a,

You know, the trouble is that we all drink gallons of the damn stuff from coffee and tea.

I try to catch myself because, you know, I don't know if it affects me anymore.

It does give a little lift in the morning.

But I don't think anything affects the sleep.

I can, for example, take an afternoon nap.

They are not involved.

That's making a difference.

And sleep, it depends on other things.

It depends on whether you're closer.

That's right.

But you know, I had thought, I had once thought that you could drink.

I don't, fortunately, I do not drink coffee at meals.

I've never touched any other stuff.

I don't drink it, for example, after dinners.

So maybe that makes a difference.

But the sleep, you just...

If you need it, you sleep.

If you don't, you don't sleep.

Sometimes you do need it, you don't sleep.

But that's the thing.

I mean, it's how fast, how hard these rules turn out to be.

I didn't know what I had to do, but you have any problems.

I think to sleep is the hardest thing.

It's the hardest thing.

The more you need it, the less you get.

Let me say that I had, uh, as you know, I had, uh, been following your, your, uh, talks with various people around here with very great interest and concern.

And, uh, I'm distressed to be, uh, I haven't been able to reach out to something that you could, uh, that you'd be, you know, you felt the chief.

The only thing is that John's going to get a belt, of course, on the stuff that I have done.

I heard, I heard that they have, what, what?

I can see your, I can see your, and I don't want to try to change your mind,

It doesn't make that much difference if the individual has the ability to, you know, what you have, to a certain degree, do something.

Just the fact that she wants to sugar-free.

Oh, I'm sorry.

He brings it around.

I'm aware of all the reasons that the State Department is not interested in the whole matter of substance.

But it's not only what it has to do with the matter of basically passing the sign.

Just as I think Russ probably made the right decision in going over to NATO, because I don't know if it will help him very much, but I guess on the top, rather than simply sitting here running the cost-of-living council.

And frankly, he's being very, what do you say, cynical about it in the future.

But he'll learn about it.

And he'll come back after, if he decides to run, which I hope he does, I think he will make the decision to come back into that new year.

He'll decide perhaps to run or whatever.

And that was in January, a few months ago.

Now, in your case, can you say first, I mean,

I don't think that I would do that for this reason.

And I think you then get into a miserable primary with some SOB, and you shouldn't do that.

You should run on the basis where it's handed to you.

And by that, where you get the nomination, well, unless it's just a pure gun.

And that's why if, that if you could go on, let me say, a tracer, or a tracer is the best job.

But I don't know whether Heidi is, like... That's Heidi now, yes.

But, but isn't, has she really been there a long time?

Is she planning to go again?

Oh, I'm sure.

I think that this is... That's significant.

I don't know if there are some sources.

I haven't talked to him about that specifically.

And you know, I don't know what he's trying to do.

He's certainly making it very hard to govern.

Very hard.

I frankly think if you could put him in a job, he ought to be in the Senate.

He doesn't feel as crass as he can be.

I think he could be wrong about that.

The problem that he has with the governor, which you've got to realize, is great.

and I'm cutting the hell out of him.

He's going to have the most miserable life.

Governor, well, Reagan's talked to me.

And I told Bob, Bob knows what he's talking about.

I've been talking to him all morning.

And Bob sees it.

I realize it.

He doesn't think of Reagan.

really cares for the governorship that he thinks Reagan wants to control the delegation.

If a governor is elected, even a Reineke, that Reagan might have a right, or someone that could be brokered, and he's probably right.

Now, with that in mind, therefore, Bob feels that Reagan wants to run this as money, let her take it with me, and Reagan gets the delegation, and that Reagan also is not interested in winning the Senate.

Because whoever, now my view on Bob's thing is that if Bob runs for governor, I want to talk to you about it, because you'll be talking to him, everyone's talking to Bob, and he's still, I think, wavering a bit.

At least he said he would not move until he talked to you again, and I asked him to pay him.

What he should have considered is whether...

He wants to go for governor and probably take on Reagan, which he would have to do.

I would say, first, if he goes for governor, then he's got to run on Reagan's record.

And I think that he could follow his father's belief in the law of the record.

You know what I mean?

He's going to have to defend it.

If he doesn't defend it, the Reagan people will come to pieces.

Now, I've been through this.

The Eisenhower record.

Now, it was a good record.

You're just, your hands are tied behind your back.

And I would imagine that they, if anything, now maybe the Reagan thing will be good enough to bottle, could scope and handle.

The other thing he has to bear in mind is that he has a primary for governor and he wouldn't have one for the Senate.

Now we'll, someday.

Because we'll support him, of course, I'll support him.

Whichever he goes for, he knows that.

Reagan, of course, was asking whether I'm going to

If it really comes down to the crunch, is that Mr. President, this party of ours is in the health state of California.

It was a Warren party, and then it was a Knight party, and then it was a Nolan party, and then it was Richard Nixon's party, and it was great.

And as the United States Senator, there's virtually nothing you can do about it as a governor.

You can't.

This is the only chance.

And if we don't

If we don't open up that party of ours in California, we not only are going to be the minority party in registration, we're going to be in, we're going to be totally ineffective.

We're going to be no threat to anybody in any second.

Give them congressional legislative grace with it.

I really don't want to.

I never have.

I think you know, Mr. President, people for years have talked to me about it.

I never have wanted to.

I really don't.

I think I'd be a lousy candidate.

I don't think I could be a lousy candidate.

I think you could do it.

I think you'd be a very good candidate.

Well, anyway, but I think, I just don't know how the cookie's crumbling out there at the moment.

And I'm staying out of it.

Bob's got to get his mind down.

I just hate to see him in that fight.

A regular pattern is a rough, rough customer, in my opinion.

What I don't know is he's rough.

I don't think it's so much that.

But there's some people around him.

He's got to sell him.

He's got very rough guys.

What are they going to do?

President, I think Bob's going to be in a rough fight with Ronald Reagan no matter what he does.

10%.

Absolutely.

But he said no.

I disagree with him.

Reagan told me he would support Bob for the Senate.

Oh, I felt support.

He might be supportive for Lieutenant Governor.

I can see it.

It's just that Ronald Reagan wants only one thing.

President.

He's been running for the President of the United States since 1960.

Well, to translate that, he's got to control the Republican Party in the state of California.

Or, or let Democrats continue to hold those seats or handle them, and he does that.

Well, that's what I mean.

So he's got to do one of two things.

He's either got to control who wins the governor's shift,

as a Republican, or he's got to make sure that Finch doesn't.

On the other hand, if Finch runs for the Senate, he doesn't have that problem.

Oh, yes, he does.

If Finch is lucky enough to be president.

No, he has a much lower level of testing.

Besides which, Mitch would make an absolutely wrong gun, and a pretty good sign.

That's a very good rating.

But you'd be better off just rating it.

But I'm not so sure.

I don't know.

I think it's not.

I served at HEW with Bob.

I don't know that you expect me to be as sensitive, but it's more than just that.

What everybody, I think a lot of people have lost sight of, is that when Bob was at HEW,

This whole nation of ours was in unbelievable turmoil.

The campuses were in riot.

They were rioting.

The city was burned, bombed, destroyed.

H-W-I's very nature was a microcosm of everything that was going on around this country.

And Bob was sitting on dynamite.

I don't know that anybody could have done much better.

Then, too, the press decided that Bob was an administration liberal.

Which even he never was.

So every time when he, my God, they really went to the sky.

And boy, let me tell you, when that happens, you fall, you fall like a shell.

And he was pulling hard.

I think it was the fact that Bob was such a decent man.

that he couldn't take it emotionally.

I don't actually know what I mean.

And we had to save him.

Well, the poor guy had to save him.

You know, his hands were shaking.

When I saw that, he knew that he had to get out.

And I was not surprised when he heard that it was a problem.

We must not let that happen to him again.

He looks fine now, if you noticed.

He came in and I watched him.

You see, I just watched him.

The way I understand it is what I mean.

His hand is calm.

He doesn't smoke as much.

And he has a lot of things that I don't.

I think he spoiled it for the parade.

So that's a great politician.

Well, and being down here in the state of California is not the same kind of thing.

There isn't any, there's no getting quite like that.

But that's something he said.

Is that one of the real ones?

Well, that's a real one, but it's supposed to have everything removed.

But it doesn't have to be that one.

Well, that's a problem that he's going to have to resolve.

That he's going to have to resolve.

As I told you, he knows her.

He knows that he'll have her support.

We already have this with his people, and he'll have a lot of good people.

But I just told him I don't want him to get hurt.

I don't want him to get hurt.

I don't want him to get hurt either, but I also know that Reggie is going to be happy.

Reggie is going to be happy about anything.

He doesn't want Bob Fitch to do anything but either retire or go to the private sector or get the healthy doctor.

Is it maybe an area where his wife wants this?

Both of them.

Nancy too.

Anybody who gets to meet Carol Finch.

I didn't know that.

Well, I think Maxie basically is sort of a, underneath that sort of syrupy expression, is a very, very tough guy.

But Reagan, he never could get on with anything.

God, he outpoured me.

Basically this was it, and unfortunately a whole lot of people just rolled around and kept writing and kept reminding us, still talking about it.

And this rankles something terrible.

If you look at the balance of the North Eagle, and for a lieutenant governor, but for a lieutenant governor to pull more votes, and he didn't bother along with the state legislature.

Sure.

Which Reagan?

It's when Bob left to come here that the relationships are all the pieces between their results.

There are lots of reasons for it.

What do you visualize?

I don't see, if you want to know the truth, given this last example, I think this is about century.

What was that?

It's a second century.

If you haven't let me know, I will send you the SOC, right?

Oh, yeah.

What did you get out of it?

This, uh, number one sensitive.

It was a guy with a criminal record.

He was in and out of writing.

He's a felony charge for writing and taking guns and gifts and stuff.

It's an incredible SOC.

I think it could kill him.

I'll send you the SOC.

You'll find nothing you've ever believed in.

But all the others are out.

So maybe Bob could, maybe Reagan got a horse.

I'm not, I'm, I'm quite curious whether Reagan got a horse.

Reagan told me that Reinke was the horse.

He was.

But my view, my view of Reagan is you will agree, both of you, that Reagan is a hell of a long ways from being a viable president.

I don't think he can't do this.

And this is the second time.

that one of his top aides has been in serious trouble in the state.

There's a rub off on him.

Yes, he does.

He's got some beautiful rifles and a few other things.

And if there are two parts that are still in court, they haven't been settled.

All these court cases are going to keep dragging it up more and more and more.

I don't know, like that Florida deal.

I got there in Florida.

There used to be a room where I used to have to ask you down there the other day.

Everything, I mean, running himself to sit by me.

But it very well may be the end of his chances.

He said that, but he's stupid.

That's why he is.

He is stupid.

God.

I can answer that.

He said it's been more than that.

I mean, Bob has always had much money.

He's a good looking guy.

If running, he had been very bright.

He looks like a very good guy.

But if running, he had been very bright.

If he'd had much money to offer, he would not be Lieutenant Governor.

Robert Reagan would never have appointed somebody that was going to be anything but Charlie McCarthy sitting on his knee, his boy.

And I tell you, if he were a governor, Reagan should go running.

Oh, no way.

Well, I mean, this is something.

I'd like to be confessing.

I mean, I understand.

I'd like to be confessing.

But as Bob, as Bob was saying, Bob's always, you know, he's around the lieutenant governor, and he's made the decision.

He's been in the cabinet and everything, and now it's up to him.

He'll make the decision, but he's...

It'll be a month or two before there's any way of knowing how much he's had.

The scandal was going to happen, right?

The polls will show it.

I don't know, so.

Well, so I see that, see that could really, that could really tip off the bottom line over here.

Yes.

Well.

That was, I have to tell you.

There you go.

If Frankie doesn't dip, if this thing gets to show, I might get to the end of that.

I'm sure it's terrible.

Because Reagan can't read it legitimately.

He's already said Reagan's mad.

Everybody knows it.

He'd have an awful hard time now turning around and anointing younger or former anointers.

Then it would be so happily obvious that anybody that said it, that it wouldn't fly.

You know, it's really that he's from the Ravens.

It would be 61, 66, 66, it's gotta be 66.

What is he now, 62, 63?

Yeah, he, well he, all he keeps saying is that he would be the same age as Eisenhardt when he ran the first time.

I don't know if it was Eisenhardt.

Oh, he's crazy.

Eisenhardt was 61 the first time he ran.

Well, then he's talking about the second.

Well, no, he can't even be talking about the second.

The second.

For me, the second.

He would have been the 65th.

But the point is that this country, except for, I think you can, but it's never nominated, never elected for the first time an individual.

I just don't know.

The job kills them.

They can't take that, particularly today.

If Reagan thinks governors are, he should be here.

I'm just wondering how he can take it.

Rockefeller, I saw Eric Riddles, but I'd rather never know.

He couldn't possibly imagine it.

Rockefeller must want a city, I think.

Also, Rockefeller has been to Washington.

He's been around.

Rocky, he's going to.

There's going to be one hell of a fight.

Rocky, Ray, thank you.

And then, of course, Percy.

If I had to make a choice, please, Ray, I know right now I'm going to judge it.

I know.

Rocky...

I know I'm lost there, but if I had to make a choice between those three, I think there is a man.

Well, I'm sure we could set up a chair.

Right.

Aren't you going to keep it?

We might have 164.

What about A?

15th May.

I think you've got to go over anything over me now.

I really do.

You mean in terms of the result?

Well...

It's not that bad.

What do you hear about him now?

I mean, he has a lot of standings.

Yeah, but in...

In what way?

In the one... in the one particular group.

And he can't...

There's a lot of people in the group.

And he doesn't reach across.

He doesn't like it.

Now, we've tried so often to get him to do schools and things.

He won't do it, will he, John?

No.

And it's a little worse now than it was before.

It's not because he's a peer.

It's because he's a peer.

And I don't think we'll teach him anything.

Do you know him?

Well, you never know when you're going to see him.

What about ladies as a group?

I gather that he has a fair amount of acceptance.

Everybody says, you don't feel so bad.

Yeah, that's what I've heard.

That's what they say.

I don't see it either.

Nobody thinks the best dressed and all that.

Oh, that's what he is.

When you get ready to, whether you're a man or a woman, when you get ready to decide who you want to be the President of the United States, your President, then it isn't all that big.

Let me tell you, if it had, Mr. President, there would have been a hell of a lot bigger difference than 120,000 votes in 1960.

Well, basically, let's face it.

Goldwater can help a lot of horses.

Goldwater is a very attractive business today.

As a matter of fact, I think you can let him go.

I'll catch him tomorrow because I know he has to.

Mr. President, can I talk to you a little bit about me?

Sure, sure, sure.

This is not easy for me.

And the last thing in God's world I want to do is to make you uncomfortable.

But I feel, John knows, I feel so deeply, and the fact that I'm here, never asked before, you know I ask you,

Dear, I feel so deeply about this matter of action that I can't live with myself or my kids or a lot of other people if I don't have a chance to tell you what I feel about it.

Now I realize, oh well, John's told me how you feel about it.

And so I know that for all intents and purposes it's a closed issue.

But I want to, I have to plead with you

not to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Let me go back a little.

In 1968, you lit a fire in millions of people around this country.

And an enormous inspiration and a response that I saw in that campaign

with your call for voluntary involvement, the involvement of volunteers, the involvement in people, helping people.

And the Germans can't ever do it all.

That same thesis is so basic to this country, everything all of us have ever believed in, the history of the nation.

It is so basic to your new federalism.

Then when the election was over, and your administration started, a lot of people expected something to happen right away in this area.

And it didn't.

It was very slow, and it was months and months and months.

I know because I worked for a year and a half trying to get it on the track, trying to get it.

I don't blame George Romney, and I don't blame Max Fischer.

No.

They were both committed to it, but both of them too damn busy to have the time to give to it.

And neither of them gave it up?

No.

And they brought in John Shea to run.

Now, I'm going to say some specific things to you.

They brought in John Shea to run, who was a lifelong, committed African Democrat.

I watched this man operate, Mr. President.

He never wanted that to succeed.

He was the executive director of the National Red Cross.

He seemed like a natural for it.

And I never wanted that to succeed.

They just guessed it.

Yeah.

It was, listen, this is a hot, this is hot property.

Right.

So as a result, the thing stumbled on.

It's still stumbling along a little bit today.

It's never, never really got off the ground.

People began to get discouraged.

I got as I went around the country because I was identified with this whole voluntary aspect.

Then in 1971, June of 71, when you announced the creation of Ashland,

There was an enormous response of feelings among people.

There it is.

He does mean it.

Here's the focus.

Now something is going to happen.

Now I realize that not a hell of a lot has happened, but given the fact that I've only been in existence for 20 months,

And also, poor John, he had to listen to some of this twice.

Also, given the fact that there was a considerable resistance and doubt

Among those agencies that became part of it, I know because some of them came from ATW and then they came to me.

The older American programs that came from ATW, they were scared to death that they were going to suffer because of the youth programs that were in it.

And many of them came to me and talked to me and I reassured them.

I said, no you won't.

This is where you really want to get your focus and so on.

On the other hand, Peace Corps and VISTA, they weren't happy about the senior groups.

So it would take at least a year for those two groups to meddle and come to a meeting of the mind.

Now, I know how you feel about the Peace Corps and about VISTA.

I felt the same way.

I still don't know an awful lot about them, so I can't really argue for in favor of either one in their present form.

I don't suppose anybody reacted more violently than I did in 1960 when Jack Kennedy unveiled that goddamn Peace Corps, to put it mildly.

For two solid years, I spoke publicly and scurrily in ways that nobody but a woman could do.

So I understand why you feel that way about it.

God knows.

But I also believe that things have settled down enough.

I can't tell you how good, how bad it is.

The only three countries that I've seen the Peace Corps work in were three South American countries.

And they were doing incredible on the Rockefeller mission.

You know that 23 governments have privately asked you to get involved?

I don't believe it.

I see the problems you've got there, Hans, with $100 million going to the Peace Corps.

The question is, can you justify that as a foreign policy?

I've been to ISIL in Peru.

I know they were very good.

I know they were very good there.

But the real question is,

whether we can really work or whether we can be better to put that into a program here in a teacher's area or a grandparent's area or an older American's area or what have you.

My point is that I think it's an instrument of foreign policy that the Peace Corps is now causing so much difficulty in so many different countries that

I didn't know where the hell we'd send them.

We might have.

I think there are about eight that I think we could really send them to at the moment.

And that's my opinion.

But you see, we get it from the government.

No, they don't.

This is because they want to.

You see, the point is, here's what a government knows.

A government knows, well, we're going to send these people down here.

We're going to give them civil aid.

They don't know anything.

I see him in Peru, I see him in Brazil, and I see him in Uruguay.

Now, if...

If it were possible, I would say to you to change the name for all the Latin American countries.

Let me tell you a little bit about why.

There are only three presidents in the United... We've only had three presidents in the history of this nation who have really been identified with Latin America.

Monroe, Teddy Roosevelt, and Richard Nixon.

And your adaptation of Latin America goes clear back into your vice presidential phase.

One of the first things you did as president

was to send those rockets on a mission down.

And I don't know how successful they were.

I know that I learned and saw on all fours.

Yes.

But what the rest of us?

So I would be right.

But I realized at the same time that you cannot just change the name immediately, change the name of something, and change the focus.

One of the things I just didn't run with a piece for is to scatter all over the guy.

I'm going to remind you, actually, Mr. Hughes.

said something of that it didn't deal just with the Americans.

Just with the Americans.

Where they are deeply resented the most, good God, Africa.

The Far East in particular, any proud nation resents it.

And I don't know, the Latinas, I don't know.

For some reason, as I said, I've only gone to those three countries.

This is what I would do.

Either start all over again, or I would as rapidly as possible

I would let no more contracts.

I would do nothing for any place except in South America.

The South American program I would constantly refer to by that name, by that area.

And in a reasonably short time, I would let no more contracts.

Black Americans.

Now, and VISTA, I think the concept of VISTA is good.

Volunteers in service to America.

But VISTA should be a combination, you can tell I talked this out, because I was terribly excited about that job.

VISTA should be a combination of business,

private voluntary organizations, foundations, and the federal government working together.

The people that go out, the people that become involved through VISTA should be skilled people, not idealists.

And I'm not against being idealists.

They can be idealists, but they've got to have something more.

But they have to have something more to offer than just being idealists.

Because just being idealists, if you have nothing more to offer,

go into these areas, and the first thing you know, you're not really helping these people.

You're aiding and abetting them.

They're crying on your shoulder and your strength.

So this is what should happen, I think, with VISTA.

And I think in this manner, I think it could be given the Nixon imprint of the government and the private sector

What was Romney's thing at the moment?

Well, Romney's thing at the moment, the shape of that, is that George Romney has only taken, that's, that's Clemson's.

That, you know.

Well, but what Romney was in, when he, you know, this was his great idea, and I don't know, is he going to go, is he going to go on or not?

Well, I don't agree.

I know, but why would that happen?

You know, yeah.

Uh, Romney is.

He told him he would support him if he wanted.

Until this time, until this time, and that board would prove that they had raised $2 million a year from the private sector, and there would be no more federal funding.

Now, this tells me that George Romney is a hell of a long way from being sure that this thing is going to succeed.

Or it's viable.

Now, I know that this is a long day's meeting, and the members of that board spoke up.

They did everything in the world they had to do to get him to take it.

And he was at it.

What is he going to do, John?

What else?

What's his other name?

Is it John Gardner?

He was about to try to work a merger with the Eric Berger Coalition.

What happened on that?

And so far, that has not changed.

uh he's got an arrangement with me that when he's ready he's going to come in and give us

In no way is he going to take on a chairmanship of something that's going to fail.

The word in Michigan yesterday, I talked to a couple of people in Detroit who are impinging that he's fallen on his nose.

And that's the word that's around here, fallen on his nose, that he's not been able to put this together.

You know, let's face it, though, it was Romney's choice.

He was not asked for a lead.

He came in, you know, and said, I won it, you know, six months before the election.

He had this screwball idea.

I think that's too wrong.

But see, this is the thing.

This is part of the problem with the National Center for Voluntary Action.

Well, then how are we going to do that?

I'm still saying, because Romney's already got his own say that he's dreamed up this goddamn priority on his time to take charge.

And if the board of directors will do the other job for it, they'll take the title.

How can you make the National Center go?

I don't think so.

And this is one of the reasons I feel so strongly about action.

You see, that action takes the volunteer out of it.

The only thing I know of is where the 80-20 match is 20% government, 90% people.

Sure.

But I mean, it is a situation where you can describe it.

You know, the volunteers always mention about government being there.

How do you reconcile it?

Well, there's a piece of the old two-headed thing.

It's in action.

No, not this.

In action.

That's the thing I told you the other day that Chris Mould is running.

And Chris has got to go no matter what happens to him because Chris Mould is John Shady's boy.

He was in the very beginning.

Now, Mr. President, if action, I can't say how much I believe

you're not happy with, rightfully, those things can be made to be what you want them to be.

I know damn well I can do it.

I'm not the only one who can do it.

But they can be redirected, made to be what you want them to be.

Then this whole damn thing is yours.

And if action is an agency, is abolished,

This is the end.

I'm not getting overdramatic.

I'm not kidding.

This is the end of volunteerism in this administration.

It not only will be interpreted that way, but to all intents and purposes, it will be the case.

Everybody, other people will go on volunteering.

Don't misunderstand me.

People will go on doing the Red Cross drives, doing the thing that they do anyway.

But no more people are going to do it.

And most of the people that are involved in that are older people.

The young people, my little kids, are a good example of it.

They're involved in volunteer kind of things.

But they're in it for two reasons.

They're in it because they see it as part of this demonstration of new federalism.

And they're not doing it through the Red Cross.

They will not let volunteers work in one of these families.

They're not explaining it to the group.

If you abolish action, that's the last vestige, the last visible vestige of this administration, yours and this administration.

Well, this is what I thought was in the works, the abolishment of action.

If you're not going to abolish it, God, I want it.

If you're going to abolish it, I don't want it.

And I want to say to you personally.

Well, I want to say to you.

I can't begin to tell you how much you're concerned for me and the fact that you don't want me bloodied.

You don't want me involved.

Let me tell you something, Mr. President.

This thing, this whole thing at HEW, at first I was in a state of shock.

Then I was just madder than hell, given the way I found out about the area.

Then I...

I was so, I was so discouraged.

I was just wiped out.

I had just about hit rock bottom when John called me and said that you had just found out about a return.

You will never know what that return did for me.

Was that something that, I don't think the other feet were on the cattle, as I understand it.

That was something that Richardson recommended.

Well, yeah, Richardson never told me about it.

I don't think it was.

I don't know.

Well, so far, I'm the only one.

I'm not sure.

I don't think they'd change.

Well, they'd change some people.

You know, they'd let some people go.

I don't know.

I could not be the instrument of embarrassment to the men that had to run that park, nor could I become the symbol

I wouldn't do it.

I couldn't do it.

So there is no choice for me to leave AGW.

The only place in government where we do any volunteers is here.

There's still a lot of AGWs.

There's still a lot of laborers, for example, in the math department.

It's just the only place we have.

This is it.

This is your focus.

This is your visible.

This is your action.

This is your commitment.

to volunteer it.

Cap, and no misunderstanding, Cap offered me another job at HEW.

Another assistant secretary, she never knew him.

But I knew when they were creating.

With, I guess, with the authority from mine.

But Cap had no idea that I would be delighted with it.

But it's not my thing, it's not for me to sit behind the desk and run some of the programs.

Uh, besides, even if it had been, again, I was too rapidly becoming a symbol in that department of what to take over their field of good old days of, of reducing and even fixing at this point.

Yeah.

And that I cannot be, I was in the fight.

Yes.

You met, two of you met in front of the game.

Yeah.

The 21st of January.

I guess so.

I think they returned to that.

I have a special position in that department.

Sure.

And an enormous rapport with the civil service there that I can help them be.

That wasn't for Richardson because Richardson had a great security himself.

Yeah, he buried himself down there.

Great man.

And he's going to be a great secretary of defense.

He could be elected.

He should be a great senator, but I don't think he'll ever be elected.

chair, but you can't put people in that damn chair.

And basically, not only make a speech on tape television, Q&A, he just doesn't come across, does he?

You know, I love, I mean, I love his back.

His back is great.

He's got that, he's just basically a boss.

He's got character and brains and organizational ability and the rest, but there it is, there it is.

The people in that department,

from the GS-1 to the top, admired and respected L.A. British.

Henry's funny, you know.

Henry now has it where I had it.

That was before the assignments.

And he says, I see now how you let Elliot go.

He calls me up and he talks for two and a half hours.

He's like water on a stone.

He says, how would you like to take him back?

But a great person.

Well, he has to call now.

He's just learning the department.

Oh, you know, you get these evening calls from Elliot.

And he will go on, he does it for hours.

But you know...

I once fell asleep.

Literally fell asleep at night.

Yeah, yeah.

But you know, John, it's funny to me.

That man, he was mad at me.

We had the most exciting, the most stimulating, the most thought-provoking staff meetings that I could have possibly imagined.

Sometimes it would come back shortly out of the wild when you found her.

What do you think?

Sure.

I was looking today and I noticed something in the news, sorry, to the effect that in Texas, they, uh, that the, uh, the, uh, the orange groves in a certain area, all the oranges are falling on the ground because they can't get the burgers.

They only pay an hour and a half an hour.

And they don't get that because with food stamps they can get more.

Now, not now.

People shouldn't get food stamps or they won't work.

Right?

And the law also provides

It is forced down in the regions, and then those department vectors all the time.

I must say, I come back to it all the time.

You know, my news about it.

I mean, Reagan, of course, is completely blind.

I come back to it quite a bit.

Many of them have got something better of me, don't you?

There has got to be some kind of a national floor so that you've got to have a family for trying to get along with 58 hours a month.

The national standards.

The national standards for it.

And it's got to be the same state.

The whole point is the thing about the family system.

I don't know.

Without probation,

The health of the working poor, you have to really, God, know it.

What the hell do you want to give a floor on welfare if you don't matter this?

Never.

I mean, now you've got nothing to guarantee the way that you're going to do it.

I'm going to try and tell everybody why it was not guaranteed.

The others, the founders, the rest would like action standards.

But all those backers want is to have the national standard to get the welfare off their backs.

But the working poor is the key to that.

You've got to get people an incentive to get off of that.

The key to it.

Well, there's a lot of keys to it, too.

The job training, the opportunity to learn.

Yeah.

Well, there were some great things.

There were a number of great things.

There was really a lot of things that turned up.

And I can see we're in crossfire.

We've got some of the likes of Curtis in here.

Benno made a squeal about it.

We could never see it as anything with a guarantee of angelism.

Well, that's right.

Which was very simplistic.

And we were, we were stuck with that.

And of course, basically, that's what it was.

And that's why his book so stated.

Without these other things, yes.

But given these other factors, it was no longer.

Well, I think by the time we got in the, by the time we got in all of the work requirements, it was no guarantee.

It was not.

Did you see a number with you?

That's right.

I did.

And I've been trying to, I've been trying for two and a half years to tell people it was not guaranteed.

I wasn't about rating.

I gave you some press clips.

I opened them.

Somebody else gave you a letter.

Don't do it.

Well, he wrote to me in my interview.

Yeah, I've been around a long time.

Well, I'm sure he was.

I'm sure he was.

But I didn't really burn him.

I'll send it to you, John.

I'll match it with what I have.

But in this account, in this account, a work star is not the answer either.

Well...

We're going to come up with a new formula.

Are we?

Well, I don't know.

We're going to take time to do it.

It's hard work to be honest.

Well, I'll tell you one that we've got to get as well as we can.

Getting back to your thing, let me say that it's hopefully what you have to say here.

I hate that many of what you said on this.

So let me give it some thought.

I've got to come up with something.

There's got to be other ways to pull some of this together.

But I have to say I'm sorry that Robbie's falling on his tail because we were

And I don't want to see the National Center go.

Here's all the ads they have on the football programs and restaurants.

All this is on the train.

They're doing some good.

It's still going.

It's going, but it's going for money.

The question is whether the run-in, whether the citizen end is going to take off or not.

Even if it does, that by itself is not enough.

There still has to be, there has to be a governmental involvement because what we have to do, and we can come right back to what's on these other programs.

What we have to do is to find and to force the government.

to find ways H-E-W has gone with it.

I finally got them to say this is their theme for the bicentennial.

I don't know if they're allowed to do it now, but the H-E-W theme for the bicentennial was to find every possible means of using volunteers or semi-volunteers, the kind where they only get car fares or babysitting or something.

In every one of our H-E-W posts, there has to be a region of government

Well, as I said, my purpose is not to beat you over there.

Well, the only thing I know so far that I feel is a match.

I think it's a perfect match for me if we can work this thing out together to be what you want it to be.

And that's my only concern.

But I know John.

I know my strengths.

And I know my limitations, doesn't it?

And I'm the objective of it.

I've got a whole lifetime.

of experience and know-how and knowledge and empathy in sealing the domestic area.

And I have credibility, even with the poor, the people that I've qualified, not in doing this.

I do have credibility.

Now, I'll quickly say one thing to you.

I am worried to death about our Mexican-Americans and our Spanish people, because appointments

are being changed.

They're leaving in droves.

We're going to get hit.

Oh, Christ, how we're going to get hit, John.

We're going to have a momentary.

Well, God, they're ready to go home, huh?

You mean they're leaving?

They're leaving.

They're going home.

Well, they're not being fired now.

They're going back to the far side.

Well, I have a moment for one reason or another.

And if I don't have a reason, let me also say one thing.

Sanchez, the ambassador, would you want to?

That's what matters to me.

Yeah.

All right.

Yeah.

Well, you've got a hell of a load on them.

That's right.

And we can't have this .

What is the problem, though?

What is the situation, John, with regard to their leaving?

I'm not aware that they're leaving in large numbers.

There haven't been many appointments made.

I know that on the massacres, we're searching for people who have so-called .

Now, some of these may have been .

Let me take it.

Successful .

Some of them may have been amputated by registration.

But the amputators are totally committed to the practice.

And we have not.

There are a whole damn few registered actions.

We have not.

Well, I have to agree.

I have to agree on a good one.

But they have credibility.

Well, actually, in all, in three areas, Mexicans, Italians, Poles, and the Eastern Europeans, three-fourths of all the YTs have to be Democrats, because only one-fourth of them are Republicans.

They're just, both of you is an unambiguous person, and Italians are Republicans, both of you, so we don't count.

That's about all.

If we stayed with what we've been doing,

If we stay in this track, they're going to leave it.

I'd say they're not going to change registrations.

A few are.

But it's a very delicate thing right now.

And I've got the votes of what?

I've got the votes out of California and Arizona.

You've got to go in Texas.

Oh, boy.

I know.

Texas is a hard one.

That finally, here was a president, here was an administration we cared about.

God, my ears were sunk if they were told this was a political.

That's right.

Well, I think it would have got me when I heard that.

No, that's all right.

I appreciate it.

Believe me, I don't know.

I'm a big Harvard grad.

I'm .

And no, Mr. President, that really isn't it.

Unfortunately, by the time we all knew what was happening, it was so late that there really wasn't anything left.

Actually, that's right.

The purpose of this page is one that I

Was it an actual job?

First mistake.

Basically, I had to slide.

I didn't know anybody reorganization.

Tell me.

Well, I couldn't believe that on the merits of the thing, they would themselves turn around.

And in any way to get them.

It isn't my way to come around and say it.

I mean, I just don't like that.

Well, I appreciate it.

I appreciate it.

Yeah, thanks, sir.

No, you can close that door.

Oh, yeah, I don't want to close that door.

She'll get you.

I know.

I don't want you to take this.

I don't want her to dislike it all your life, but I'm just done.

Oh.

Well, I love you.

I didn't mean to interrupt you.

I didn't mean to do it.

Check that political situation, let me know what it is.

I think you ought to be a candidate.

You would be very...

I'll do it.

What is your district you live in?

I don't know.

I don't know what it is.

My kids have teased me ever since.

They said, Mom, did you ever dream when you said, I'm going to be a congressman, you were going to create a president?

Yes.

No.

That's right.

I know.

Sometimes you have to.

Yeah, I know that.

I love it.

Hey.

John, I want to ask you, do you have the exact information?

I've got to check with you once again.

Okay.

Well, I think it's still one of those damn things.

But as you can see, she is strong-willed, well, and very narrow, narrow.

And frankly, a conversation on issues, she did not have a reason.

Am I right or not?

She'd be a special pleaser.

She'd be on your back.

I'm on Sonny's back.

Second point.

I don't believe so.

We shouldn't.

See, she's hardly right.

by the idea that we should in some way try to retain some support of this damn volunteerism.

I don't know how to...

I guess Robbie and Shay is what's fucked it up the most.

No, I didn't do that.

All right, fine.

Okay, let's go.

In the name of all service, how do you get the Italo-Americans and Royals and young people to have an American church?

Oh, sure, why wouldn't we?

But the other point is...

On the other thing, let me say the next thing, because we're going to take a week or so, it's what is happening here.

I hope that there are people that, Alec is, you know, such a sucker hunter.

He's just kicking his ass.

I'm not going to sit down anymore.

I don't want to do this.

I don't want it done.

I'm going to keep blacks all over the place.

I'm not going to sit down.

I'm going to keep the blacks here.

We're down.

We're running on this.

And we're bringing on women now.

But, oh, Christ, yes, we heard badly.

We heard badly.

I mean, at the very start.

Blackwood.

Well, Cato's, uh, Poles, for instance.

Yeah, very spare.

Very spare.

That's what John Olsen said.

but I'm pretty good.

But the Eastern Europeans, very poor.

Blacks, not good at all.

The Western Americans control the Blacks, but we just can't blame them.

They have some around.

One of the problems is getting acceptance for the ones that you do come up with.

And that's been some problem with the Mexican-Americans.

The things you've got that are not very damn good for the Johnsons.

You've got to put them in prison.

I mean, he just, you know, he's laughing hard at him and he's just hard on us.

And I think George may be around, he's wanting something, he may be peddling something to him.

But I'm also worried about the blacks, I understand.

I understand.

We have less Mexican-Americans than we have blacks.

I talked to Ann this morning about the Mexican-American situation.

She had several good names, and she was at work on them.

And she's got a lot of empathy with the Mexican-Americans.

She's been down that way, and she speaks the language, I know, and so forth.

So she was concerned that we didn't have any White House staff.

And I said, okay, you come up with a good one.

And we'll make room for him on the way downstairs.

She said, well, she had a couple she wanted to talk to.

And I think that would be a time to arrest her.

He's pretty, he's mediocre, very mediocre.

Can't you give him something?

Yeah, we'll give him something.

Sure, we're not going to just run into him.

I'm returning this because I don't know what she's talking about.

I'm getting rid of it, actually.

I don't know.

That's a surprise.

Sanchez, of course.

We didn't get rid of him.

We're getting an ambassador.

That's right.

He's not unhappy about that, is he?

No.

He's tickled with that.

So I'll check.

I'm going to see these guys tomorrow, and I'll ask them about the numbers.

I didn't mean to say that.

Jerry Jones is the first one.

All right, you can tell them, my God, I want to see some Mexican-Americans as a matter of fact.

They've got to have them.

And I want that thing examined thoroughly, unless they're guilty of a crime.

The blacks, I'm not that worried about them.

I mean, we've done enough.

I tell you, I just don't think we're going to get to them.

They don't have their hearts in one.

Because blacks are mentioned.

We'll bear down.

I've been on their backs very hard on some of these.

Well, it's a thing that I've had a chance on.

I've been over this ground, this track a dozen times.

There's no room for mystery.

I mean, it just isn't.

Yeah, I always thought, for example, one of them was, no, he reaches in and I hire some.

Sure.

That's partly perfect.

Over there we've had slightly, maybe we're talking about John or something for Secretary of the Army.

Give it to him, give it to him.

Let him be Secretary of the Army.

I mean, that's a mistake in my opinion.

I've told him about that.

He says, well, he couldn't have gotten that.

He's a nice fellow.

He's been there for four years.

He leaves.

He hasn't quite been there for four.

Well, I don't like soccer.

I don't do the highlights, do you?

I don't.

But Jesus Christ, I mean, John Warner is a great player.

Yeah.

And the job.

William, somebody says he's a great player.

Okay.

Yeah.

Sorry I was late.

I was up having a seance with your sterling leader, Hugh Scott.

What do you want?

Well, I'll tell you later, just, you know, psychotherapy, more than anything else.

Is there anything you need to worry about?

I don't know.

I don't know if he was complaining about being stigmatized.

He's got some vetoes.

We gave him an assignment to ask all men to have a couple vetoes and so on, and so he didn't want to go into that, and then he wanted to tell me about the move of the Senate.

Which is not good.

What do you think we can do about it?

Well, I wouldn't even tell you what he said.

Well, I've got the nerve.

What is it about?

He would like your personal participation in countless events.

Oh, you'll be out there?

Come up and sit down here and

And, you know, so does he realize we've done a lot about these social events and so forth?

He doesn't think that does it for now.

And he's getting prompted out by the pressure of the departments of this world and others.

Well, what do they want?

They only want attention.

They want the president.

Yeah.

Anybody else in the town would come out.

Just you.

That would be fine.

And I did have some fun.

Just before I saw Scott, I saw Stevens of Alaska.

And he said, I'm terribly disturbed by what you said to me on the phone the other day.

And he said, I wanted a chance to talk to you about it.

And I said, sure, Senator.

We were talking about his voting record.

And he said, you know, it was a terribly divisive thing for the president to have those fellows down there for that Vietnam War reception.

And a lot of us got left out.

And I said, Senator, the president didn't leave you out.

I said, eat by the people down there who voted a certain way.

And you were the one who cast your vote.

So in fact, you left yourself out.

Sure, Mr. Bisbee, but we had the people down in the state that vetoed this.

Well, I said, you know, the president cared very much who stood with him in the very hard days.

And I said, it wasn't easy for those offices to stand with him anymore.

It was easy for the president.

Well, he said, let's forget the foreign votes.

I'm with the president on the domestic.

And I said, no, as a matter of fact, your voting record is 46% for the last year.

46%?

I said, yes, sir.

Oh, he said, I was with you a lot more than that.

I said, well, I got votes the rest of the year.

So we went down to vetoes and thing, thing, thing, thing, thing.

And I said, you know, any time we're apart with a senator voting 50% of the time, that's cause for concern.

Is there, and in his case, this is really the law, I think, because Christ Almighty, God has been in this God damn high house for a very long time.

The way he argues it is, he is not asking this.

He is just reporting to me for those.

What basically do they want?

They want a big session.

Basically, they want a big session.

I'm not sure.

I can't.

We can't do that.

I want to find out.

I sit and hear them talk about this.

That's not what they want.

who, which ones, all of them.

He says the leadership, several freshmen, including Dewey Bartlett, and several little rangers like Hanson, Fannin, Young,

And I said, Sarah, what's really going on with this?

And he said, Peter, what do you mean?

And he said, well, so many of these guys are up for re-election.

And I said, well, you mark this on it.

He just was all like, no.

And he said, I mean, the middle rankers.

He said, they're scared of that.

Well, he said, well, I don't know how the pitching says you, but I hope there's sense of fear.

Well, then we can feel a lot better than that vote was.

I'm going to go back up and talk to you again.

But John, they better decide, though.

I mean, I guess our people around here have got to decide.

That's what they're going to do with my time.

I'm not going to do these goddamn job services.

And I'm not going to go to the White House because I didn't want to serve.

I didn't know what I was doing.

It's not in my mind.

We need to determine our own mind.

Either that or we have to do something about it.

As I say, it's not before you right now.

And it may be.

But I don't hold sitting around with these people and guessing about it.

We've tried that before and it's never worked well.

I'll take seriously what you told me to do here.

I'll start to work these guys some.

And let me take some additional readings on this.

Because I haven't...

They feed on each other at that point.

They feed on each other.

And then they go out and battle.

It's a hell of a time.

I think what may be the problem too is that

Not that we do too little, but we may be doing too much.

I don't know what I mean.

I mean, I mean, in terms of social and all that, you can't watch the governor going on.

I want to make very clear, I don't propose this at all, and I don't report it seriously.

I mean, Scott Snow is a junkie, and...

So why is it personally out of joint?

It is personally out of joint for some minor historical reasons, apparently.

And they don't relate to you.

They relate to a statement by the staff on a lot of the calls and that kind of stuff.

Really?

Yeah.

And Doug, he gets the district attention.

Tom, Tom asked me if I'd help him out with it.

So that's the reason they don't let me call it.

Yeah, but what's that got to do with it?

Don't worry about it.