Nixon, Dean & Bull on Watergate hearings and Executive privilege

DeanGood morning, sir.
NixonHi, John. All right. Well, I wanted to talk to you about this meeting this morning. [unintelligible] you must've. Did you talk to Kleindienst yet?
DeanNo, I did not. I want to plan these to another question [unintelligible].
NixonYeah. You have to perfectly understand that you will call him, give him instructions, and that he will call you, and so forth and so on. I just don't want Kleindienst to go you know, like Baker, like Ervin, trying to run one into the wall [unintelligible].
DeanWell, get us Make any deals, I think, would be our, uh the worst thing we could do with this crowd. Because, uh you know, they're they're not uh the same kind of politicians you're used to dealing with. You've got to be very firm with these guys, or we may not end up with anything.
NixonAnd as I said, always backed up as if my posture of seeming just the one that they took. Kleindienst wants to back all the way, you know, because, you know, we ought to back and have have them up there in executive session. Well, now,
Nixonyou go hold up an executive session, we still got a problem, because what they did of uh Well, I can't think of the guy's name. But I'm thinking of that because it'll go into camera, and they'll already question them. They'll leak it anyway. And that's going to be far worse than having This crap bothers us at the moment, but that's far worse. Because hell, haul them up there, bullyrag them around the damn place.
NixonAnd always bully. Don't worry. You know what they did to Arthur Goldberg when they [unintelligible] Rodgers, and all the other people, you know. Oh, uh,
Nixonoh, I sent some notes out on uh, I had a couple of yellow pages and something that I received from that fellow, the teacher's stand. I'm not going to play with these yellow pages. You can take them out with you, though. Let's see if I can find them. The senate, I told them, this senate guy,
NixonSo, we see, uh, I think you'd better have a good, hard, uh, face-to-face talk with him, and say, "Look, we've talked this thing over and, uh, you raise the point, but seeing how you can't be executive sessions, because, you know, he's liable to throw it out there and then grab it.
DeanThat's right, and, as I mentioned yesterday, he is meeting with Sam Ervin and Baker in this joint session. And it's probably one of the first things that, uh That's what he's going to discuss.
NixonExecutive session, and not only the one, but the main Ervin point is now: what about executive privilege? Now, we hadn't conceded yet, though, had we?
DeanNo, it's not. So that I am surprised to have Kleindienst
NixonWell, you've got to have a talk with him, and say, "We've talked about these matters, and so forth, and this is where it is." Now, the urbanization, I mean, er, of course, I know that they had written interrogatories, which they will never they'll probably accept. But it makes his position to be reasonable to the public. Right.
DeanThat's what you have in mind.
NixonCorrect. The other possibility is the is the one that er, er, er, not Ervin's suggestion, you can add of, uh, to agree that the ranking, uh, the chairman and ranking member could uh, question under, basically the same,
Nixonunder very restricted uh, limited areas, something like that.
DeanBe coming down here, say?
NixonThey come here and they ask the questions.
DeanI think I think that's a uh If we can't get written interrogatories, that's still a serious precedent to deal with, though. If they come down here and start questioning people, I think the issues will have to be so narrowed for even that situation.
NixonYeah.
DeanAnd that's what it will involve: a narrowing of the issues to where what information, say, a Haldeman might have, or an Ehrlichman might have, that the committee needs to be completing its report, or its investigations.
NixonYeah. Well, we will say that we will ask we will suppose you would do written interrogatories under oath, and then answer the questions.
DeanThe public can see, you're not withholding any information, and you're not using the shield of the president.
NixonNo, they say, well, you talked to Kleindienst, I praise his three [unintelligible] damn, he's forgotten it. So, go back and read the first chapter of 6 questions, and tell them about it. Uh, you know, very well, as I said, espionage against the nation, not against the party.
NixonFBI, Hoover himself, who was a friend of mine, who even then said, "Sorry, I've been ordered not to cooperate." And they didn't give us one goddamned thing. I conducted that investigation,
Nixontwo stupid little committee investigators, but they were tenacious. One an ex-fireman, the other the FBI, it was good, decent, but they didn't know anything [unintelligible]. And, uh, we got it done.
DeanMm-hm.
NixonWell, we broke that thing. The FBI then got the evidence that you actually See, we got the typewriter. We got the We got the all of Pumpkin Papers. We got all that ourselves.
DeanFunny thing, they won't-
NixonThe FBI didn't cooperate. The Justice Department didn't cooperate. The administration would not answer questions, except, of course, for cabinet officers being like uh, brought him down and so forth and so on.
DeanFunny, when the shoe's on the other foot, how they look at things, isn't it?
NixonIt is. Well, and, as I said, the New York Times, and the Washington Post, and all the rest, said this was a great, they said that it was a congressional prerogative to carry on this investigation.
DeanSo, the real question There's now and now.
NixonSo, they, uh, having been through that, they can talk to Ervin, and I feel that, you know, I think that is, I always feel that they may not, they thought that it was wrong to test the actions and all this other matter. But, I mean, we ought to cooperate, and I'm trying to find an area of cooperation, and here it is.
NixonNow, you see, the Ervin the Baker theory is that he wants to have a big slam-bang thing for a week, and he thinks after that the whole thing will fall off. And he's right about that, even, but he's pointing to having a big slam-bang thing for a week, and bring all the big shots up right away.
NixonWell, the big shots he could bring out, he could bring up Stans. They've got to put him on, they've got to put Mitchell on. And he'd like to, of course, follow the girl closely.
DeanI understand that, uh, Bob and you have talked about running Stans out as sort of a stalking horse on another toast.
NixonWell, that's not my idea. That's, I guess, Moore or somebody-
DeanI think it was my idea, as a matter of fact. And I think it could diffuse be one diffusing factor in the hearings. Uh, Stans would like to get his side of the story out. He is not in any serious problem ultimately. It could be rough and tumble, but Maury is ready to take it.
DeanAnd, uh, it would be a mini hearing, no doubt about it. But this further detracts from, uh, the Ervin-
NixonA mini hearing, that's true. Except knowing the press are trying to come up [unintelligible] you know, like they did. They sold several of these stories to Colson and Haldeman about four times.
DeanOh, I know that.
NixonNow, that they, I just wonder if that doesn't do that. Did they sell? Thanks, Sam. They gave him a I see somebody that afternoon, the Vesco affair, that's really hardly news. Cause I read the first episode story, read Colson, I read that through carefully, and I got the Times, read it. The Times had, in the second paragraph, that the money had occurred returned.
DeanThat is correct. It had returned.
NixonThat's right, and the other said Arizona.
DeanTypical.
NixonWell, but, my guess is, as far as that transaction's concerned, you see it was after he got the money after the 10th. But I don't think they've blotted out that Sears got it before.
DeanWell, it was delivered Well, for all purposes, the the, uh, donor Sure.
NixonNever, never, never.
DeanOh, it, eh- Uh, I think we have a good, strong case, that the donor had relinquished control over the money, and constructive possession of the money was in the hands of the Harrison, the Finance Committee and Sears and that and the like, so that there's no, uh-
NixonHow did they get my brother into it, Eddie?
DeanI'll tell you how they That was That was sheer sandbagging of of your brother. Here's what they did. They called him down here in Washington.
Nixonput a hell of a burden, because he he almost agrees to it, and then to what happens to the people, especially kind of a libel to accuse somebody of a crime or dash, kind of silly business. Would that [crosstalk] That's right.
DeanHe he does, and he's a victim of circumstances, of innuendo, of false charges. Uh he has a darn good chance of winning that libel suit he's got against Larry O'Brien.
NixonHas he?
DeanHe That's right.
NixonGood.
NixonThat's why Larry filed on counter suit.
DeanThat's right.
NixonI see Ziegler was disturbed at the newsmen, at the named newsmen. That disturbed you?
DeanIt didn't disturb me at all. No, sir. I've I talked to Ron at some length about it the other night. I said, "Ron, first of all, you can be rest assured that the White House was not involved in that decision." Said, "Ron, [crosstalk] Not civil. Civil deposition.
NixonSounds from a lawyer. You know, it's it's civil deposition. It's not prosecution.
DeanNo, it's civil deposition, and uh
Deanuh
Deanit's not that we haven't reached the newsmen uh yet, and that's way down the road, if for some reason they refuse to testify on some given evidence.
DeanWhat they're trying to establish is the fact that uh Edward Bennett Williams law firm passed out an amended complaint that libel stands
Deanbefore it was into the court process, so it was not privileged,
Deanand the newsmen are the people who can answer that question. Also they're trying to find out
Deanhow Larry O'Brien and Edward Bennett Williams made statements to the effect
Deanthat this lawsuit was
Deannot really to The first lawsuit they brought against the committee was not really to establish any invasion of privacy, but rather they were harassing
Deanthe uh uh the committee, they made But they made this off the record to several newsmen.
NixonYeah.
DeanAnd we know they did this.
NixonIf this was a trumped-up lawsuit, and therefore, that proves also malice and
DeanIt It makes the abuse of process uh case that we have against them on a counter-suit. And the lawyers made a very conscious and good decision to to proceed with the suits. They're going to have have this information, and it doesn't bother me that uh they subpoenaed nine or 10.
NixonWell, a hell of a lot of people don't give one goddamn about this issue of suppression of the press, and so forth. We know what we're trying to do with them, and they'd all squeal about this. It's amusing to me when they say that's why Ziegler I watched the network, and they weren't
NixonUh and I thought they were restrained. What the Christ do they want them to do, go through the '68 syndrome?
NixonThere were 8 to 1 against us. There are only 3 to 1 against us this time in Watergate every afternoon.
NixonYou know, truly, it's it's sickening that these guys, these guys have always, they have always figured, well, the press has our side, and we, we, we received in the nonsense, and so on. But not no more.
NixonColson's sure made a move in Toronto, I wondered whether you know, like this or that, but it did did affect you.
DeanWell, you know, Colson's threat of a lawsuit that was was printed in Evans and Novak had a very sobering effect on several of the national magazines. They are now checking before they print a lot of this Watergate
Deanjunk
Deanthey print with the press office, trying to get a confirmation, denial, comments, or calling individuals involved. And they have said as much as they're doing it because they're afraid somebody is going to bring a libel suit on them. So it did have a sobering effect.
DeanWell, people may be honest if we can uh remind them that they can't print anything in the [crosstalk]
NixonSuit is first though, uh for civil suit for libel. It is tough in the it's impossible. [chuckle]
DeanYes, sir. It is.
DeanYou have to establish, one, malice or reckless disregard. Uh
DeanThose are both very difficult [crosstalk] to prove.
NixonYeah. Malice is impossible, practically.
NixonHe's got to get that information, reckless disregard, you know, maybe.
DeanTough.
NixonThat's a bad decision.
DeanMr. President, it really is a bad decision.
NixonAlabama. What's the name of that?
DeanNew York Times v. Sullivan, and then [crosstalk] came out of out of the South in the civil rights.
NixonYes. Sullivan. Brought about some some guy that uh yeah, police chief or something. Anyway,
NixonI remember reading at the time, Christ, they were suing Life, you know, for the hills. When Life was guilty itself.
NixonIt went, the Supreme Court 4 to 3.
NixonThere were a couple of people, you know, 5 to 4, 5 to 3 and 1/2.
Dean[laughter] Basically uh
NixonWell, this whole panel, therefore, it shouldn't stand uh, we must uh we must uh support and work on that. Just so you understand,
NixonI think you better go over and get in touch with Dick, and say, you keep it in your hands. Don't say the president's insisted, Well,
Nixonmy guess it's going to be me in the end. But I, I'd say for this is the position that you've got to take, Ervin, a fight he can't get out of, Baker.
NixonI don't want them to think that you can turn that. I took that position to Baker today. Because Baker is a smoothly. He'd prefer, well the president didn't say, it's not that we haven't told him. Dick should say, all right, they studied it. They recommended that the president's approved.
NixonRight?
DeanYes, sir. I I I think that's absolutely on all fours. And uh how about our dealings with Baker under normal Congressional Relations, uh vis-a-vis Timmons and Baker? Should we have
DeanTimmons making uh dealing with Well,
NixonWell, Baker did he objected to uh, something about, it's a curious thing about that,
Nixonthat uh Harlow had been pretty big cap called in here urging and trying to influence who would be on his staff. Jesus Christ, uh I don't know why Harlow did that. If he did,
NixonI don't, but if he did, I don't know why Baker would resent it, but nevertheless, he's
DeanI don't know how to read Howard Baker. I just don't
NixonI have the impression that Baker didn't want to talk to anybody with White House.
DeanOkay, I think that's one we just have to monitor, and that's one we'll have to know an awful lot about it, so.
NixonListen, good luck. Timmons told Baker that if he wants to talk to he wants to get anybody, he don't have to talk to Timmons. Course Timmons is a party district too, and Harlow can call him. And I talked to Thurmond,
Nixonand you're the man. And you're available, but leave it that way, you're available to talk to him about everything, but nobody else. How's that sound to you?
DeanGreat. That sounds good.
NixonYou tell Timmons that he's he's in conversation. That's it. We're not pressing him. We don't care. We're not to Baker.
NixonWhat's the full committee now?
DeanI would suspect if we're going to get any insight into what that's that special committee's going to do, it's going to be through the Gurney's. I don't know about Weicker uh where he's going to fall out on this thing.
NixonYeah, he'll, he'll, he'll be Whatever that
DeanI think
NixonWeicker, in the line with Weicker is Gray. Uh Gray has got to shape up there. Handle himself well, too. Do you think he will?
DeanI do. I think Pat is uh Pat is tough. He goes up this morning, as you know. Uh he's um he's ready. He's very comfortable in all the decisions he's made,
Deanand uh I think he'll be good.
NixonUh he's close to Weicker, that's what I mean.
DeanYes, he is. And uh so, Gray has a beat there, yes.
NixonAnd Gray, Gray has a beat there, yes.
NixonOne rather amusing thing about this Gray thing, is that uh uh uh, and I know this would come later. Constantly they say Gray, political crony, personal crony of the president's.
NixonDo you know that I have never seen him socially?
DeanIs that correct? All right, he's
NixonI think I think he's been to a couple White House dinners.
DeanRight.
NixonI never see Pat Gray. Well, the press has got him meeting you at a social function and and uh right from there back in
Dean47, I think, or something, I've read.
NixonMaybe Radford had a party or something.
DeanSomething like that, yeah.
NixonThat's all. And well, that's I know Gray's a is somebody that I that I know only as a, he was the he was Radford's assistant. Used to attend NSC with the group, so I met him. He's never been socially, J. Edgar Hoover on the other hand, I've seen socially at least 100 times.
NixonHe and I were very close friends.
DeanIt's curious the way the press is [crosstalk]
NixonAin't that funny? My Hoover wasn't my crony and friend, he was supposed to be closer to Lyndon Johnson than actually, although Johnson used him more, but Pat Gray apparently [unintelligible]
DeanRight.
DeanWell, it might have been uh a lot of blue chips to the late director, I think we'd have been a lot better off during this whole Watergate thing if he'd been alive, because he knew how to handle that bureau,
NixonOh.
Deanand how to keep them in bounds. Uh It was
NixonWell, Hoover would have fought.
NixonHe would have fought. That's the point. He'd have fired a few people. He'd have scared them to death. Hell, he's got files on everyone of them [unintelligible].
DeanThat's right.
NixonBut now, at the present time, the bureau is leaking like a sieve. They're making in and Gray isn't.
NixonThat stuff's not coming from the bureau, that's so wouldn't tell us enough.
NixonProbably, how could it be coming from anybody else?
NixonCan't come in that raw deposition, can it?
DeanNo, it just would not.
NixonIt's not out of the deposition, is it?
DeanNo.
DeanJust Well, they're getting they're getting raw data. They're getting the raw what they call 302 forms, which are the summaries of the interviews.
NixonYeah.
NixonYeah.
NixonWell, could you could do, handle it that way, I think that's the best thing to do.
NixonYou have to wonder, really, Colson, who's got the brass balls, or brass balls
Nixonshould fight the suit. I like I understand, I know that Colson, Colson's got a lot of vulnerabilities. In terms of people that he knew, and so forth and so on. And, certainly [unintelligible] I mean on a narrow issue.
DeanWell, Chuck and I talk about this. He he could possibly win a suit and-
NixonCan he win it?
Dean-lose the war. For this reason: the counter-discovery in a libel action has no bounds. They can just come in and depose him on everything he's done at any point in time, and-
NixonI get it. Yeah.
Dean-that'll, that'll be out. That'll be out.
NixonRight.
DeanHe's got a good one, and-
NixonWell, then stand and be the suer. He is the suer.
Dean-he may well prevail. Or, it may well be the device to force a settlement of all these other suits we've got out there. You know, we've got 14 million dollars worth of suits against us, and we've got seven, or, 10 against-
NixonWell, Christ, they ought to get together and drop them.
DeanThat's what we're trying to get accomplished, yes. They're just costing, they're causing everybody problems and, and, and-
NixonThat's right, that's right. They've got problems and we've got [unintelligible]. Now, do you see this Vesco thing coming up? Burns my tail, because I, I raise hell on Colson on this, didn't do anything about it. Well, I guess he couldn't. But what in the name of God, again, did he get into our investigation of their financial activities? Jesus Christ, they borrow, they cancel debts, they borrow money from the damn.
DeanIt's, it's still going on, Mr. President. They're looking- McGovern's stuff is in such bad shape. It's another unfortunate thing, the GAO comes in to audit us-
NixonYeah.
NixonDid the Washington Star say that?
DeanThey-
NixonYeah.
Dean-they, they, they find all the documents, so they're able to make, make it look sensational. Well, they have now, but if, you know, gets about that much [whispers] coverage [/whispers] in the paper. They can't even figure out what McGovern's done, the books are in such a mess, but you haven't seen them saying anything yet, and that's one of the things that hopefully will-
NixonBring out, the hearings?
Dean-bring out as to what a mess this was, and-
NixonHow are you going to bring it out if you can't bring it out in these hearings?
DeanWell, I think, I think we will. I think an independent sort of media-type will bring it out. Chuck is going to be of aid when he's out there not connected with the White House. Little bits of tidbits can be dropped to Chuck. Chuck will still have his channels to flick things out, sure. And-
NixonSure.
NixonThat's what- in my view, I, Colson, it's hard for him to leave, because he loves the action and the rest. But Barker is a financial, Barker, Davis and so forth, is everybody you can think of. Colson can be more valuable out than in, because, basically, in, he just reached the point where he was, he was too visible.
DeanThat's a liability, yeah.
NixonAnd, and outside, I mean he can start this and that. He's a hell of a proud citizen and ashamed of God damn, please.
DeanRight. That's, that's right. I think Chuck can be of great aid in this thing, and I think he'll, he'll do it.
NixonNow, another thing, to recap, you will talk to, uh, Kleindienst about the paper. If that can, tight as he can, I doubt that much can be done there. Kleindienst, so that Kleindienst knows that this has been decided, that's it.
DeanYeah. Yeah.
NixonAnd he'll say, "Well, they won't take it." Which is fine, it's so ridiculous. Go on the written interrogatory, thing.
DeanWe should see. Your, your view would be not to give any further ground, huh?
DeanI'd say hope, you know, you, you, you, you initially hold the line. As far as you go, if it becomes apparent that it's necessary for informational purposes, to repeat, the Pre- the President's not going to hide any information, he's, you're not going to hide any information. And this can be given in a sworn statement, through an, an interrogatory: "Send your questions down, they'll be answered.
NixonRight, right.
NixonYeah.
DeanWe won't hide the information, but we won't change that, the nature and the ability of the President to make decisions, to operate internally, and the like, because you have a political circus going."
NixonOkay. I just happen to view that no one will still think everybody should go off and testify. But at least you head and talked with him. I do want you to look into the case, though. I think that got a bad rap, this, this man, goddammit. What's it called?
DeanYes, sir, I am.
DeanI'm doing that. I talked to Clark yesterday. I talked to him last night, again. He's on this as hot and heavy as can be, and-
NixonYeah, yeah.
NixonWell, does he think he got a bad rap?
DeanHe does. He thinks he's got a bad rap. And I, you know-
NixonMaybe he had. He didn't follow the rules. That's, that's what's sure. Rule, rule, rule- but when a, when a bureaucrat takes it upon himself to go out and, and go way beyond the pale in terms of attacking the- they shoot themselves, pose as a Congressman or Senator in one of his administrative assistants, well, that's- hell would he do? He could fire him once, right?
NixonNow, there's another part of the, the great public center is called upon to be the savior. Congress is, of course, [unintelligible] its, its- but, yes, they're so enormously frustrated that they're, the law, I think, I think that's a lot of that. Too bad,
Nixonbut they become irate because they're so dangerously responsible. It's really sad, though.
DeanIt is. Yes, sir, I spent some years on the Hill myself, and one of the things that I've always noticed was the inability of the- of the Congress to, to deal effectively with the Executive Branch. Because, one, they don't, they never provide themselves with adequate staff. Another, had quite adequate information available. Uh-
NixonWell, now they've got huge staffs, though, compared to what we have.
DeanWell, they've got huge staffs, uh, true, as opposed to what they had years ago, but they're still inadequate- inadequate to deal effectively with-
NixonGod only knows they want them. God only knows.
DeanI'm not, I'm not suggesting that I keep, but I reserve my- I have defenseless myself.
DeanI think that these hearings are going to be hot, I think they're going to be tough. Uh, I think they're going to be gory in some regards, but I'm also convinced that if everyone pulls their own oar in this thing, and although we've got various concerns, we can make it through these, and minimal people be hurt.
DeanAnd they may even paint themselves as being such partisans in an off-base that they're really doing a disservice to government itself. Frankly, I'd rather-
NixonFrankly, we would say that, perhaps, rather that they be partisan. That they get to be partisan. I rather that than, rather than for them to have the facade of fairness, all the rest. Ervin-
DeanRight. Well, it's an open thing.
Nixon-for, Ervin, by all this business about being a great constitutional lawyer, Christ, he's not- he's got, Baker told us, he's totally partisan, Ervin is. Ervin is a partisan. Most of our Southern gentlemen are-
Nixonthey are great politicians, they're just more clever than the iron burners. Just more clever.
DeanWell, I'm I'm convinced that he's shown that he's merely a puppet for Kennedy in this whole thing.
NixonKennedy?
DeanFor Kennedy. The fine hand of the Kennedys is behind this whole hearing that's going on, or is forthcoming. There's no doubt about it. When, when they considered the resolution on the floor of the Senate, I got the record out to read it. Who asked special permission to have their staff man on the floor? Kennedy brings his man, Flug, out on the floor,
Deanwhen they debated the resolution. He was the only one that did this. It's been Kennedy's push, quietly. His constant investigation, his committee using their subpoenas to get at Kalmbach and all these people, it's kept a quiet and constant pressure on the thing. I think this fellow, Sam Dash, who has been selected counsel, is a Kennedy choice.
DeanI think it's also with something we'll be able to quietly and slowly document. People will print in the press and, and the partisan cast of this thing will become much more apparent.
NixonYeah, I guess the Kennedy crowd is just laying in the bushes waiting to make their move.
NixonNow, we we talked about Johnson using the FBI. Did your friends tell, did your friends tell you later what Bobby did earlier when he was-? They protect-
DeanI, I haven't heard, but I-
NixonJohnson believed that Bobby bugged him.
DeanIt wouldn't surprise me. Bobby was a ruthless little bastard.
NixonDid the FBI does, they they tell you that that's all, they told you that in New Jersey they did use a bug out there just to tell you what's worth?
DeanDown in Atlantic Park, they had agents all over Atlantic-
NixonAnd what did the doctor say that followed Jenkins, that killer?
DeanThat's right.
NixonThe FBI had him in mind?
DeanWell, tell you about that. He used Abe Fortas and Deek DeLoach backed up by some other people in the bureau that were standing ready to go out and try to coax this doctor into examining Walter Jenkins, say the man has a brain tumor.
DeanHe was very ill, that's why the erratic behavior.
DeanAnd this doctor, uh, wouldn't bite.
NixonHe was a guy who'd never examined him before or anything?
DeanNo.
DeanWell, I you know, like I say, I haven't probed uh Sullivan to the depths on this, because I you can see, one, I want to keep it at arm's length. We make sure he is safe, but he has a world of information that uh may be available. He says
NixonHe says that what happened on the on the, you know, bugging thing, who told what to whom again?
DeanThe bugging oh, on the '68 thing, when I was trying to track down these the leaks, he said that the only place he could figure it coming from would be one of a couple sources he was aware of. Well, uh they have been somewhat discussed publicly. He said that
DeanHoover had told Patrick Coyne about the fact that this was being done. Coyne had told Rockefeller, and Rockefeller had told Kissinger. Now, I have never run it any step beyond what Sullivan said there.
DeanNow the other thing is that when the records were unavailable for Hoover, all of his logs, and Hoover tried to re reconstruct them by going to the Washington field office. He made a pretty good stir about what he was doing when he was trying to get the records reconstructed. He said at that time, it probably hit the grapevine
Deanin the Bureau, that this had occurred.
DeanNow there's no evidence of it. Uh, the records show at the Department of Justice and in the FBI, that there is no such surveillance has ever conducted.
Dean[unintelligible] what the, as far as the White House staff and reporters, like, and now the on the other person who knows, is aware of it, is Mark Felt, and we've talked about Mark Felt and uh,
NixonFelt won't say anything, though. Let's face it. No.
Dean[laughter]
NixonSuppose Felt goes out, rats, and all. They push him to the he can't do it. It's his neck, too.
DeanThat's right. He can't. He's
NixonThe guys who do that, you know, who who go out and and who's uh A person who he couldn't do it unless he had a guarantee from somebody like Time magazine, "We'll give you a job for life." Then what are they going to do, put in a job for life, everybody pretty much appalled.
NixonHe's in a very dangerous situation, this guy who's an informer. Look what it did to Chambers. Chambers is armed because he didn't give a goddamn, you know, but then,
Nixonone of the most brilliant writers in terms of, you know, Chambers, child bit, we've ever seen in this country.
NixonGot another forty tons of stuff. His great essays, God, Time about thirty years old, about the best writing he ever did. He's finished.
DeanMhm.
NixonWell, I think I I there's no Either way either way the the informer is not loved in our society, either way. That's the one thing people do so much say. Mhm. They don't say, "Oh, that son of a bitch is informant? I don't want him around." We don't want him around either.
NixonI don't Hoover to Coyne, and then Coyne to K, right?
DeanRight.
NixonWell, did Coyne say Coyne to Rockefeller, Rockefeller to Kissinger? I've known Coyne for years. I know him well, right. He's a great friend.
NixonOh, my. He was in shit far, far deeper than that. Now that's the Sullivan story. I have-
DeanNow that's the Sullivan story. I have had not I don't know if it's true, but I don't have any reason to doubt. Well, that's this gossip. Hoover told me, so and he also told Mitchell personally the incident happened.
DeanYou know are you are you talking about I was talking about the '68 uh incident that just occurred, not the '68 was the bugging of the plane.
DeanYeah. Oh, I wasn't referring to that now. When this When this Coyne to Oh, that this this was the this was the fact that the newsmen had been
Deanuh I I excuse me, I thought even grant the reference to the fact that uh, Oh. three years ago, the White House had allegedly Oh. That's that's that's not the uh-
DeanNo, the on the on the '68 incident, uh all I've been able to find out is what you told me that Hoover had told you, what he had told Mitchell.
NixonYeah.
DeanHe um, That's right. Uh,
Deanthere's one other tidbit. Kevin Phillips called Pat Buchanan the other day with a with a tidbit that uh Dick Whalen of the NSC staff had seen memorandum between the NSC and the FBI
Deanthat the FBI had been instructed to put surveillance on Anna Chennault, the South Vietnamese Embassy, and the Agnew plane.
NixonAgnew?
DeanAgnew plane. Now, and it said, and this note also said that DeLoach was the operative FBI officer. That could be, but DeLoach's memory on it is very very hazy, you know. Could have DeLoach's.
DeanNow, I talked to Mitchell about this, and Mitchell says that he's talked to DeLoach. DeLoach has in his possession, and he has let Mitchell review them, some of the files on this, uh, but they don't go very far.
DeanThey don't go very far, and it's this is DeLoach uh protecting his own hide. The uh, they are, never the It's just as well, to be candid with you.
NixonJust as well, Dean. That's right.
NixonSo Hoover told Coyne, and uh and they're told Rockefeller, this this is true. That newsmen have been, the press.
DeanThat's right.
NixonHow far did we go then? I don't have the foggiest. This was Sullivan's story as to where a leak might have come from about this current Time magazine story,
Nixonwhich we are stonewalling totally, uh Oh, absolutely.
NixonTotally. As I say, I didn't think I am aware of that, because I uh I I know of some
Nixonperfectly uh, absolutely Hurt Hoover here? we All of these were national indeed in the national security interest. Henry's back. He's just horrified to see, you know, what that was for Muskie. Mhm.
NixonSo, then they [laughter] didn't have to do it that way. [unintelligible] But at least I know that because I followed I know that he asked for it, to be done, and I assume that it was, you know, whether and how far they followed that, but that tapped to see they never publish.
NixonJust gobs and gobs of material, of gossip, and bullshit. Mhm. and far stuff, you know. God knows it's a very, very unproductive thing. I've always thought so.
NixonAt least never they've never been useful in any operation under this government.
NixonWell, is your view that we should try to get off of the '68 story?
DeanWell, I crept the thread of the '68 story when when Scott and the others were arguing that the committee up on the Hill broaden its mandate Yeah. to include other elections. They were hinting around that something occurred in '68, '64, that should be looked at.
NixonWell, Goldwater claimed he was bugged.
DeanThat's right. Now, I think that I think that that threat Did you ever think Did you say that Johnson did bug Goldwater? He did. Well, I we don't know. I don't know if he bugged him, you know. He did intelligence work up one side and down the other. from the FBI From the FBI. Uh, just up one side and down the other on Goldwater.
DeanNow I've not had a chance to talk to the Senator, and I've known the Senator for twenty years, uh, the first man in public life I ever met. Uh, Barry Jr. and I were roommates in school together. So, I and I can talk to the man. I really going to sit down with him one day, and I said, uh, say, "What
NixonWhat the hell? What What the hard evidence? That's right.
NixonThen, we can go from there and Yeah. probably reconstruct some things and, surely. so forth. I do think you've got to remember, and as you surely do, it's mainly a public relations thing, anyway. What is the situation, incidentally, with regard to the the the sentencing of our of the people, the seven? When the hell is that going to occur?
DeanThat's likely to occur, I would say could occur as early as late this week, more likely sometime next week.
NixonWhy has it been delayed so?
DeanWell, they they've been in the process of preparing the presentence report. The judge sends out probation officers to find out everybody who knew these people, and they deal with
NixonPut your name in work all of them, to break, you see.
DeanWell, there's some of that. They're using the probation officer for more than the normal probation report. They're trying to uh to have a mini investigation by the judge himself, which is his only investigative tool here. So, they have they have virtually completed now. They the US attorney who handles the the assistant
NixonYou know, when they talked about a thirty-five year sentence now, here's here's something that does not involve there were no weapons, right? There were no injuries, right? There was no success for, well, success maybe [unintelligible]. The point is the uh, that that sort of thing is just ridiculous.
NixonOne of these one of these blacks, you know, goes in here and holds up a a store with a goddam gun, and they give him two years and then probation after six months.
DeanAnd they got him out on on bond during the time that he's considering his case. These fellows cannot get out.
NixonAre they are they in jail?
DeanThey're in, well, all but one. Hunt made the the bond. Everybody else is in jail. They've got a $100,000 surety bond, which means they have to put up actual collateral, like
DeanYeah, and none of these people have a $100,000. The Court of Appeals has been sitting for two weeks or better now on a review of the bond issue and not even letting these people out to prepare their case for [unintelligible].
NixonWhat is the situation with that goddamn District Court of Appeals?
DeanNo way that's gonna change. They're gonna sit there until hell freezes over.
NixonUh, you mean on on this this issue?
DeanNo. Well, one that we got to get rid of is Bazelon. Oh, Bazelon--
NixonA majority? Bazelon? Yeah. He's just, I think he's just gonna try to wait us out.
NixonCrooked?
DeanNo, I get some people that, he's an insane man. He just uh I wish I could establish he was crooked because it I know.
DeanThat would be easier. He could be forced out. He's ready for retirement. He's just sitting to wait. I don't think he can last. For another four years, frankly.
DeanI think you'll get a shot at putting the rest that bench together. This is the wildest circuit in the whole country.
NixonYeah, but basically if we get him, does that give us a majority yet?
DeanNo, not quite. Not quite.
NixonNow, we've got MacKinnon, and we've got Robb, and uh like the FBI fellow, Wilkey, is there, too. We got four.
DeanYeah.
NixonIt's growing.
DeanWe need six, five. Or is it a nine-man court?
DeanWell, here's the thing they It's so seldom sits en banc anymore that it's it's You know, they're three-man panels, and we can beat them if we get our men on the three-man panels with frequency. For for probably 80%
Nixon[unintelligible] all these All our men can be out of here, two or three of them, that they get out for the surest of place somebody in their place, but they do that they've got to get out of here in advance, because, believe me, Congress will blow will hold up every goddamn judgeship.
DeanRemember Johnson tried that. At the end, he waited too long.
NixonHe waited too long, but I think if you I think if you've got Judge Burger, in any of them, or Brennan, they've got to move the first session.
DeanAll right, that's something that I can get in order right away, is, you know, combination of what, you know, where-- Where, where we are and that's how that it goes right to the Supreme Court, too. That's right.
NixonYou see, now if if if if Blackmun Powell, of course, is a prime candidate for that. He He's the type of guy, if his health maybe decides by God he can't do it, and then he would he says that he has to, but he'd give us the time.
DeanThat's right.
NixonNow, Powell, Burger, Blackmun are all in their sixties.
DeanIf they have any indication, or feel, we should know it, uh, so we can get a [unintelligible]--
NixonWell, so they, also so that what they want their If they want their, shall we say, influence on the court to survive, they've got to give us a chance to point those good, handy people.
NixonI can't help believe, though, that in the next three, almost four years-- and, by God, it has to be in three years. Something is going to happen to some of the members of that court. For Christ sakes,
NixonDouglas is over 70, he's got a pacemaker, and that's final, he's had that for years. Douglas is over 70, Brennan's over 70, isn't he?
DeanNo, I don't think Brennan is 70 yet. Uh--
NixonHe's in good health.
DeanGood health. Probably Thurgood Marshall. Marshall's in bad health.
NixonWell, they say that, but is he really? Has he
DeanWell, he's been The The clerks up there that I have fellow who just worked in my office, an intern here in the White House, up there, and he says Marshall is a weak man, and not in good health, honestly. The clerks chatter amongst themselves.
NixonYeah.
DeanAnd we may well get uh--
NixonMarshall, of course, you've got to put a black in, John, to beat him, John. If we can get one that isn't as bad as he is--
DeanThat'd be tough to find, but uh-- Well, I was thinking, for example, take this woman, Brown. She's one.
NixonThe other is, of course, that's why they Jewels is over here.
DeanVery, very potential. Why not [crosstalk]-- Why not pick Why not kill two birds with one stone, have a black woman?
NixonHistoric appointment. She's a good woman, and she's and nobody can say she isn't a towering figure. Who the hell is a towering figure in court?
NixonWe've, well, I would have to say Douglas has got brains. Brennan is a boob. Uh, Thurgood Marshall's a boob. Byron White is better than average. He's above average.
NixonUh, Potter Stewart's a weak man. Potter's a nice fellow, but weak, not strong. Something has happened to him since he's been here.
NixonOur own people: Blackmun, slightly above average. Burger, way above average because of administrative ability. Powell, way above average.
NixonNow that's about Rehnquist. Rehnquist who is on top.
DeanI was going to say, you know, I, I heard from people not too long ago that he he is such a delight to the Chief.
NixonWell, the Chief so so told Burger. He loves Rehnquist. He said that man's smart. That's why we've got to move to that kind of people, and, boy, I'm going to put people in next appointment, I don't care whether it's uh they're going to be young.
NixonNow, this Jewels, uh, I mean I want her really pushed, and, and swung, and everything, because if something happens to that jackass, Thurgood-- I mean, he's a nice person, but he's dumb as hell.
DeanOh, he's not He's just--
NixonHe is not a bright man. But, you know, put Jewels on. Can you imagine those bastards in the Senate voting against her?
DeanNo way. No way.
NixonNo way. And we've got her there. She doesn't have to be in court. We can move her directly directly from that job onto that court. Room after she's in there, sitting around.
DeanWell, we won't cross that bridge yet, but you never know. Tomorrow it could happen.
NixonThat's the the nature of it.
DeanIt's silly.
DeanWell, I do think it would be good for for me and and and to talk to Kleindienst about getting some sort of perspective on older judges we've appointed, and those that we have some control on, and all--
DeanAnd, oddly, friendly Southern Democratic judges that are old, who would like to see the right kind of appointments go. That's right.
NixonWe ought to have an analysis made. He ought to have an analysis made. He could work on all of this, keeping in mind, of course, that people might be here, of course, they have to be here, but he should make the analysis. You could tell him you and I talked and I don't want,
NixonI talked this again something that I'd like for him to shade of his own that I say that I order, but tell him that and he'll be delighted that I expect a report from him about every couple months. All right.
NixonAnd he and then he can come in and ask for an appointment, and tell me what the hell they're doing.
DeanThat's important, too, for the morale of Kleindienst and the morale of the-- Well, partly because he'll feel that I've been thinking about it and I thought that he ought to be a self-generating fellow on this. That's analyzing the bench, aging.
NixonTell him I don't think anybody should be in court over the age of 70. I mean, anybody, anybody, anybody.
NixonAnd so let's go. And see what we can do about getting some appointments made.
NixonHow would you like to have Teddy Kennedy appointing judges for the Supreme Court? Jesus Christ.
NixonSo, tell Dick that he'll he'll enjoy that fine, but it needs to be this very super secret thing, and confess that I got that it it occurred to me after I had talked to him. I didn't want to mention it in front of the others, and everything, but here, mention this so that he can
Nixontake it as his own project. He's that kind, and you say he can really what he can do is to branch off of my birthday statement, where I said, you know, I said we have to have
Nixonyounger people in the court, and so forth, and raised that question directly. Read all of that, so let the chief talking to him about people they've already watched tonight. I don't want him to sit with me, oh no, I just want an analysis of that district court, circuit court,
Nixonand you can say Supreme Court, and just right down the line. I got to go, will, will be ready, and in that way, rather than when somebody comes in they'll say, "Gee, we should put old Gordon Ellis's brother-in-law in the court,"
Nixonand then we respond to that. We'll make our own choice. We'll be ready. We've got to have a bank of judges, lawyers, etc., that we can throw in there.
NixonNeedless to say, our I don't think it would hurt the, I'd like to have an Italian, for instance.
NixonTry to find an honest Italian to put on the court. That's goddamn hard, but you, sometimes, can.
NixonI mean, you have an honest Italian, you find some, and they make some lectures, but they don't, you know, want to pay for something. You got to get Italians, Poles, one black we've got, no more Jews.
NixonNot needed. Did you notice, that's one thing in regard to, you know, I had enormous pressure, to appoint a Jewish on the Court, I said, "Hell no." I said, "What about, we're not being properly represented?" I said, "What are you talking about?"
NixonI said, "Who's the Chief Economic Adviser? Stein. He's Jewish.
NixonWho's the head of the Federal Reserve? Burns. He's Jewish. Who's the head of the NSC? Kissinger. He's Jewish.
NixonWho's one of the main President's, Presidential Research? Safire. He's Jewish.
NixonSee? Now, mind you, I have just, I'm far from being anti-Semitic. I'm not pro-Semitic either. I'm just pro pro-ability.
NixonOn the other hand, you have to be, in terms of minority groups, you have to be You've got to reach out and pull people in who don't quite have it, because basically, we have to remember that most of us who have been to
Nixonrecently good schools and recently good backgrounds. Or shall we say,
Nixonmost of them, there is there isn't early a false snobbishness, there's a hell of a lot of snobbishness. They don't mean it, but they just don't want, they just don't think the others can hack it.
NixonAnd goddamn it, maybe they can't hack it. Maybe they do have bad manners and maybe they do smell of garlic, and oh, I know all the problems, you see. Goddamn it, they can't hack it. On the other hand, you got to have them. That's the way this country is. Otherwise, they're going to feel left out. And the tendency that we have the same thing, we're putting Harvard men in, Yale men in,
DeanRight.
Nixonyou know, Berkeley men in, Stanford men, and let me tell you, it's a goddamned shame. I know we're trying to find others. But you, you look at the cabinet, first the Harvard School of Business. I'm part of it, but Republicans,
Nixonif anything, are worse than Democrats in terms of elitists. Basically, because we, we just don't, we only believe in competence. It's a tough business.
NixonNow, if you look at these judges and so forth and on a whole bunch, we, goddamn well, are not going to, we're gonna we're going to spread the base. And Jesus Christ, they can put a third of mush on the bench. Hell damn, we put a Jew's law firm in. There's just not, no way the Senate could deny a confirmation to a woman like that. She is,
DeanNo.
Nixonshe's clean as a whistle, she's honorable, she's uh qualified. Sure she has No, sure she hasn't been sitting on the bench or anything, but they're But that's, look at the training of some of the other great justices that have come along. They've they've been plucked from nowhere and emerged to greatness uh,
NixonWell, Frankfurter never sat on the bench. Of course, he was a great teacher, but he never sat on the bench, and he became a great judge. Anybody can quarrel about that. Look at Rehnquist who may emerge as one of the great judges, who was, you know, pulled out of an Arizona practice,
DeanThat's right.
Deanan assistant attorney general, suddenly he's on the Court. Right. Although he had clerked, he'd uh, That's right. Mhm. but that was the extent of it. No, I think that there's no problem there. And that's one of the great things that you'll be able to to really you affect the government for so many years to come. We haven't affected it,
NixonWe haven't. We haven't affected it as much as we we should. On the courts?
DeanNo. It's just starting to be the impact is just,
NixonJust starting.
NixonYou still think Sullivan is basically reliable?
DeanI I have nothing to judge that on other than I've watched him for a number of years. I watched him when he was working with Tom Huston on domestic intelligence. He has a desire to do the right thing.
DeanUh I've tried to, you know, stay in touch with Bill and find out what his moods are. Bill was forced on the outside for a long time. He didn't become, he didn't become bitter. He sat back and waited till he could come back in. Uh he didn't try to force or blackmail his way around uh with knowledge he had.
DeanSo I I have no I have no signs of anything but a reliable man who thinks a great deal of this administration.
NixonIn a in a view, you understand, the problem with Felt here is is gray, but I insist on Felt's being the second man, and that worried the hell out of me. And Felt, I think at the present time it doesn't. It worries me, frankly.
DeanThe future is going to be the problem. I think it is for the future because, you know, things can only get more complex over there as we move along. There's no doubt about it.
NixonWell, as he gets closer to the next election. Oh, well. What about, How does Felt look? Does he look like, Well, they call him the white mouse or the white rat over there, and uh,
Deanhe's a he has a a mousy or rat-looking face with white hair, and uh he's he's you know, he's a he's a man with some presence. He uh he's articulate, and he is a very able, crafty bureaucrat. He's been moving around for a long time.
NixonWhere'd he go Where'd he go to school?
DeanPardon?
NixonWhere'd he go to school?
DeanI don't have the foggiest notion on his background. I've really never checked into him.
NixonTell you. Um, Jewish? Not Jewish. He Good God.
DeanNo, I don't I don't believe he's Jewish, although he looks a little Jewish. That's the interesting thing.
NixonYeah. Well, I wouldn't say, I think Hoover basically, well Hoover Hoover was anti-black and he never ceased to say so. He could be Jewish. I don't, you know, it's uh, I've always wondered. I said I've wondered on that point.
NixonWell, you can't hold that against anybody, of course, but there is a there's a tendency for our for our Jewish friends in the in the media to have their ins with everybody. Kissinger leaks to them, Burns leaks to them, Safire leaks to them.
DeanMm-mm.
NixonDamn it, we all leak to our own.
DeanWell, I have to say one thing, there has never been a leak out of my office. There never will be a leak out of my office. I wouldn't begin to know how to leak even. I don't want to learn how to leak.
NixonWell, let's turn to There's a reasoned book that's come out. I haven't read the book, but I saw a review of it by Arthur Schlesinger Jr., Kennedy's Thirteen Mistakes on the Bay of Pigs, some which Arthur Schlesinger is gets clear on, or of course Frank, the greatest leaks and one of and the big and the Bay of Pigs thing,
Nixonand what happened there it goes Chester Bowles found about it. He deliberately leaked it, deliberately, because he wanted the operation to fail. Hm. And it did fail. It did fail. It's interesting. This happens all the time.
NixonWell, you can uh follow these characters to uh the uh the sentence. Right. I hate those poor guys in jail, you know, particularly McCord.
NixonHunt with his wife uh dead.
DeanWell, they haven't uh they've never indicated. They're they're hanging in tough right now.
NixonWhat the hell do they expect, though? Do they expect that they'll get clemency within a reasonable time?
DeanI think they do.
NixonWell, how's it Well, a few of us are.
DeanUh it's one of those things we'll have to watch very closely, for example. You couldn't do it You couldn't do it, say, in six months? No. No, you couldn't. This thing may become so political as a result of these hearings that it is it's it's more vendetta.
DeanYou know, it's a vendetta. This judge may may go off the deep end in sentencing and make it so absurd that uh it's clearly an injustice uh that they have been heavy, Are they going to appeal uh is there any Are there any appeals left?
DeanRight. Liddy, Liddy and McCord, who sat through the trial, will both be on appeal. Mhm. And uh no telling how long that will last.
DeanI think this is one the one of these things we just have to wait out.
NixonAnd, the President should not be commenting on this case. You agree with that, do you, John, in terms? Absolutely. Now that doesn't mean quietly we're not going to be working around the out of the city, but uh, you can rest assured that uh we're not going to be sitting quietly.
DeanI don't know what we could do.
NixonWell, I hopefully we can, Yeah, that's right. Jesus Christ. Even so, funny shapes, I don't see how our boys could have gotten but nevertheless, they did. It's It's weird.
NixonI think it's cheaper than out of a hotel, but nevertheless, What the hell did they do? What in the name of God did, shouldn't shouldn't get be trying to get intelligence? Aren't they trying to get intelligence from us?
DeanAbsolutely.
NixonDid we try to get schedules? Did we try to disrupt them? Did they try to disrupt ours? Christ, through rocks, and ran demonstrations, and shouted, cut the public address system, then the tear gas thing, what the hell was that all about? Did we do that?
DeanMcGovern had Dick Tuck on his payroll. Uh and Dick Tuck was down in Texas when you were down at the Connally ranch, set up to do a prank down there. Right. But
Nixoncame off. Did what, what? What, did Segretti ever do that came off? Not much.
DeanHe did, he did some, some humorous things. You know, for example, there'd be a fundraising dinner, and he'd invite Wayne the Wizard to fly in from the Virgin Islands to perform a magic show. And of course, he hadn't been hired. He sent
NixonYeah.
Deanhe sent invitations to all these black diplomats and, and sent limousines out and had them picked up and they all showed up and they hadn't been invited. He had 400 pizzas sent to another [unintelligible]
Nixon[unintelligible] talk of the old, the '62, 1960 and the rest, they want to say well, now, that's terrible. No, it's not terrible.
DeanI think we can keep this, the Segretti stuff in perspective because it's not that bad. Chapin's involvement is not that deep. He was a catalyst and that's about the extent of it.
NixonHe recommended him. That's right.
DeanThat's right.
NixonWhich didn't [unintelligible]
DeanThe one I think they're going to go after with a vengeance, and why I've spent some, a great deal of time with next week, a couple of days, matter of fact, getting this all in order is Herb Kalmbach.
NixonYes.
DeanHerb has got, they subpoenaed his records. And he's got records that run all over, his own personal things for the last, you know, few years. Herb has been a man who's been moving things around for more, keeping things in in tow and taking care of [unintelligible]
Nixon[unintelligible] Well, the bank records will be [unintelligible]
DeanWell, see, they've already they've already gotten to the banks that had them. And I think what we'll do is there'll be a logical, natural explanation for every single transaction.
NixonAll right.
DeanIt's just a lot of minutiae we've got to go through, but he's coming in next week and we I've told him we'll sit down and he is preparing everything, getting all of it available. And we're going to sit down with his, with Frank DeMarco
NixonRight.
Deanand see if we can't get this whole thing
NixonAny records that he has with regard to the campaign, they can they can't the records with regard to his private practice.
DeanNo, none of the private transactions. Absolutely. That is privileged materials. That's right. The the work for San Clemente and and the like that is just so far out of bounds that uh
Nixon[unintelligible]
DeanHave they asked for it? No. No. There's no indication yet.
NixonOh, well.
DeanKeep it hid.
NixonWell, it's just none of their, that's really none of their business.
DeanKalmbach is a decent boy. He'll make a good witness.
NixonI think he will. He's smart, he's been tough thus far. He hasn't, you know, he can take it. His skin is thick now. Sure it bothered him with all this press he was getting, the L.A. Times has been running stories on him all the time and and the like, local stations have been making him more of a personality. His his partners have been nipping at him. But Herb's tough now, he's ready. He's going to go through and he's going to
DeanYeah.
Nixonhe's hunkered down. He's ready to handle it. So, I'm not worried about Herb at all.
DeanOh, well. It It'll be hard for him because they'll, they'll get after him. It It It's, I suppose, the big thing is the financial transactions they were after. How did the money get to the bank in Mexico, and so forth and so on? And that can all be explained.
NixonIt can?
DeanYes, indeed. Yes, sir.
NixonThey're going to be disappointed with a lot of the answers they get, when they actually get the facts. Because the Times and the Post have such fun with innuendo,
DeanYeah.
Nixonwhen they get the facts, they're going to be disappointed.
DeanOne point, though, that you ought to, the other day at Peter I tried to get it into his thick skull. It's thick skull, I think. Tell, tell
Nixon[unintelligible]
DeanKleindienst to tell Peter to emphasize the way to have a successful hearing and fair is to run like a court, no hearsay, no innuendo. Now, you know, goddamn well, that going to sound like a good point.
NixonNo, no hearsay. Well, that's the way Nixon ran the Hiss case. As a matter of fact, some innuendo came out, of course, goddammit, no hearsay.
DeanMm-mm.
NixonWe really, we, we just got them the facts. This torch accusation say, say, "No hearsay, no innuendo."
DeanYeah.
NixonAnd, and the, and each Erwin [unintelligible] like the court there saying, "Uh, that's hearsay. I won't like it." And tell him to be, and have that counsel, the counsel for the uh for our people
DeanRight.
Nixonhe gets up there to say, "I object to that Mr. Chairman on the basis of this hearsay." [unintelligible] out in the press and some of the early articles as this thing gets keyed up, will, will Sam Ervin, the constitutional man, be a judge? Will he admit hearsay? We can probably get some think pieces out uh
DeanWell, that's it.
Nixonuh to get a little pressure on him to perform that way, or to to make it look very partisan when he doesn't, you know, when he lets all this in.
DeanI'd like to get some articles out that, "No hearsay, no innuendo." There'll be no hearsay, no innuendo, this, this is going to be, shall we say, a model for the congressional hearing,
NixonA model.
Deana model and it'll disappoint the goddamn press. There'll be no hearsay, no innuendo, no leaks.
NixonWell, are there, there are a lot of precedents. I, I've been involved in two congressional investigations. Uh one was the Adam Clayton Powell investigation when I was working over there as minority counsel on House Judiciary.
DeanMm-hm.
NixonWe didn't take hearsay. We made a strict, stuck to the facts on that. We did an investigation of the Oklahoma judges. Again, same sort of thing. We went into executive session when necessary there. I bet if we look around, we'll find respectable investigations have been conducted up there that can be held up,
DeanRight.
Nixonand some of this should be uh should be coming forth to set, you know, the stage for these hearings.
DeanWell, I'm I I'm planning a number of brainstorm sessions to with some of these media
NixonI know. It's Well, this is very important. It seemed like a terrible waste of your time. It's, no, it's, it's important in the sense that it's they're all Listen, this is a battle. They, they want to wage the battle
DeanRight.
Nixonand a lot of it's in arms frustration about losing the election. Save their party and so forth, and their party has got some problems. We, we've got problems because of theirs.
DeanMm-hm.
NixonStrauss isn't going to pull them all together. It's hungry, and from all that, well,
DeanWell, I was, you know, we've gone a long road on this thing now. I had thought it was an impossible task to hold together until after the election until things just, started scaring him. But we've made it this far. And I'm convinced we're going to make it the whole road and put the thing in, in, in, in the funny pages of the, of the history books rather than anything serious. We have to. It's got to be that way.
NixonIt'll be somewhat serious, but the main thing, of course, is also
Deanisolation of the President from this. Absolutely.
NixonBecause that, fortunately, is totally true.
DeanI know that, sir.
NixonGod Almighty. I mean, first, I had not known. And I never forget when I heard about this goddamn thing, called Bob. What in the hell is this?
DeanMhm.
NixonWhat's the matter with these people? Are they crazy?
DeanI thought they were nuts.
NixonI thought it was a prank.
DeanPrank.
NixonBut it wasn't.
DeanIt was serious.
NixonI think that our our right friends know that's true, too. They know. I think they do, too. As well as I mean, they know we're not would be involved in such shit.
DeanThey they think Colson could pull off that irony. And then, frankly, they think Colson
NixonDo they think
DeanWell, anyway, that works fine. And now I will not talk to you again until you have something to report to me.
NixonAll right, sir.
DeanUh, but I think it's very important that you have your talks with uh our good friend.
NixonShall we do that? Shall we do that?
DeanHe's the man, I told him, he's the man to make the difference. Also, point out to him that the bitch, they're reopening all of the track system. Colson's [unintelligible] stuff, and so forth,
NixonRight.
DeanAll right, that is really, really his bailiwick. Let's forget that. Remember, this was not done for the White House, it was done for the Committee to Re-Elect and Mitchell was the chairman.
NixonCorrect.
DeanThat's correct.
NixonNever liked the publicity. He's so politically oriented, Mr. Attorney General [unintelligible]
DeanThere he is. Goddamn. Baker's got to realize this and that if he allows this thing to get out, he's got a potentially ruined John Mitchell.
NixonHe won't.
DeanMitchell won't allow this though [unintelligible]
NixonWell, I think Sam, they sent. But, I don't see how he does it. My guess is that as you well know
DeanUh
Nixonthat's what they're after. That's no crap.
DeanNo, the committee is after
Nixonsomebody in the White House. They'd, they'd they'd like to get Haldeman.
DeanOr Colson.
NixonEhrlichman [unintelligible]
DeanOr possibly Dean. You know, who who knows. [laughter] Anybody they could. I'm a small fish, but uh
NixonAnybody in the White House they would. But, in your case, I think they realize you're a lawyer and hell you didn't have a goddamn thing to do with the campaign.
DeanThat's right.
NixonThat's right.
DeanWell.
NixonWe'll see.
DeanAll right, sir.
NixonGood luck.
DeanThank you.

Nixon, Dean & Bull on Watergate hearings and Executive privilege

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Nixon, Dean & Bull on Watergate hearings and Executive privilege

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Nixon Library Finding Aid

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Also recorded on February 28, 1973

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