Nixon, Pamplin & Bull on Antitrust regulation and Federal Trade Commission

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I want to stand right up and sit down right here.

This way.

I mean, with a bunch of mayors, I never get through.

How's Georgia?

All right, all right, all right.

It's a great company.

I remember the years that I knew her.

She was a friend.

So forth.

So, go on, go on.

Pearson, thank you.

Ten years ago.

Yeah, I got it.

There's a few things I wanted to say.

Sure.

So what happened to the president?

Well, we got some problems, as you know.

We got the Congress sticking up because they don't want to keep the budget in.

What else can we do?

Would you like some coffee or tea or iced tea or Pepsi-Cola?

That's what I'm going to say.

I can't really be happy that way.

No, I think you're exactly right.

Cut back on it.

Two or three things I thought might be of interest to you, since I was speaking at one.

This happened sometime back, I just wanted to tell you about it.

The Federal Trade Commission made a case against Georgia, which said it was out a few years ago.

Since you got in?

I think it was, yes, since you got in.

It's all been worked out now, and of course it's hard.

I just want to mention to you that I think it's wrong.

I think it's wrong for the country.

I would say most of the things they do are wrong, in my opinion.

This is what they tell us.

They sold me on him as a succeed migrator who can't be any very well.

The minute we got him in, I could see what was going on.

He was one of these crusader men.

Understand, I want to enforce the law, but I don't want to punish people.

That's what burns me up with them.

That's probably what happened to you, isn't it?

Well, it was a little worse than that.

Really?

Yeah.

See, we developed Southern Pan-Fly over in the south.

So we came in and built the first mill.

worked all the drugs out of it, and we felt it did a wonderful product.

So after we did that, we started expanding in the south and built a lot of plants.

Well, the result of our building these plants, and then the house was doing a lot of vintage, you know, the price of timber moved up.

It moved up quite considerably.

Well, we got blamed by a lot of small people for running the price of timber up.

And that's what brought the case up.

They complained because we were running the price of timber up.

Well, they really didn't have a case against us.

We built every plywood plant ourselves.

And it really was for the good of the country.

We could see how the room was going on.

We'd be shocked.

So the only way they could bring a case was to say that we had all the, we acquired Timber.

And in acquiring Timber, we had the principal basis for plywood plants in the south.

And we own less than 1% of the tunnel, but that's the basis they brought the case on.

And of course, they're trying to make law.

They weren't forcing it.

But after we got into it, we let them put on their case, and then we worked out a solution that we felt wouldn't hurt us, and it'd be something they would buy.

And so we did work out that we would spin off a separate company we thought it was anti-civid.

and put a group of flywheel planes and other operations into it and spun it off to our stopboards.

We felt that way we wouldn't have had our employees on our stopboards in doing it.

Well, it's worked out all right, but they had to hurry.

During the time we were tied up with them, we quit expanding.

And so that made this flywheel a lot tighter than it would have been if we'd been permitted to go right ahead.

But when you quit expanding, you lose your momentum.

And a lot of your people get dissatisfied because you're not moving forward and all that.

And so as a result, we lost about two years.

We're just going back now.

So if we hadn't of done it, we would have had a lot more flower production than what we had.

And wouldn't, price prices wouldn't have gone up in time.

But this is a case of not, there wasn't any threat of a monopoly.

We made more than half a dish instead of less.

All of the factories were listening to the small cup.

Not that you shouldn't do it.

But they were not as efficient.

And they had to go to this problem.

I mean, it's not because you make a tree go twice as far.

Well, what happens, too, is that they were listening to these smaller producers.

And we're not taking the long view.

And everybody is concerned these days about the timber prices and all that business.

You know what I mean?

If they take the long view, they realize the most important thing is to get that supply.

That's right.

It's like cutting back on oil.

Do you cut an iron thing back too far and keep it back and never come back?

That's right.

So it's foolish.

After we got into it and started working with them, they were very cooperative.

I mean, we didn't have any trouble once we got into it.

And I think they could see that maybe they did make a mistake.

And we didn't have any trouble working that way.

And they've been very cooperative since then.

So, I mean, I felt walled around.

They've been very cooperative.

Yeah.

What we are trying to do, as a matter of fact, is what this last election is about.

I'm sure these are things that don't follow up yourself.

I think it's good that you're talking to some of your colleagues.

They look at programs and all those things are important.

They're important in the short run.

law firm as far as this country is concerned, and in their relations as far as the business, particularly the big business is concerned.

You've got to think of the courts, who's going to be in those courts, as they consider.

You've got to think also of the administrative agencies, which are the courts.

That's what we're calling it in that case.

An airline is going to worry about the CAB.

the uh you've got to worry about federal trade and perhaps several others and uh and so what we are doing i i'm really spending a lot of time on those commissions because i'm trying to get the very frankly i

or whatever, I don't care, radical right or left, I don't care.

When a person's on a commission, he should be there as a judge.

He should not be there as an advocate.

That's my view.

I mean, a commission is basically a court, in a sense, right?

And for him to be there, a lot of these people go on these commissions, and they think it's that they, therefore, have the responsibility.

made new law.

They're not going to take it, but they're going to interpret the old man, the same through the court.

That's why, you know, I had to fight the Senate on it.

And finally, I got four good judges.

We got Dr. Blackman, Dr. Brown, and Dr. Powell.

And if something happens to you, I'm afraid not much of somebody else will get one more than the last five.

That's right.

Well, I just want to say, it's the appointments we make to these commissions and the courts are more important to match this country than a whole lot of other communities in the United States.

Because they go on forever.

That's right.

Exactly.

No, I think that's wonderful.

Take federal power.

There's another one.

You know, the way that federal power campaigns has drug its feet on, I mean, these things like, well, I like the price of natural gas and so forth.

So that seems to be the price.

But by reason of keeping that price too low,

not enough natural gas to produce, and as a result, you've got an energy crisis, right?

Yeah, exactly.

And we've got to get people, I've been trying to get people on these pictures, and they're having a fight.

It's a lousy job.

Yeah.

You can still pay maybe $30,000, $40,000, I don't know, but you have to pay.

You usually can't find,

So we're working on it, I can assure you.

Yeah, I know.

But it's not easy.

And I appreciate that, too, and everybody else does.

I mean, for example, the IRS.

Our problem there is, frankly, is not the director.

We always have good directors.

But the bureaucracy in the IRS is just absolutely full.

and accountants and so forth, and many of them that go clear back to their narrative and deal, and they're out there to do in, frankly, our times.

Yeah.

I don't want any special treatment for now, but I don't want to be treated equally in China.

Right.

And, yeah, so I think you should know that that's one of the reasons since the election I've been spending so much time on finance.

We're trying to clean this government up, get rid of some of

not for the purpose of more power, but for the purpose of getting a fair shake for the business interests of the other exchange countries.

There's a couple of other things I might mention.

One is the Japanese hog export being out on the West Coast, where I'm very familiar with.

Oh, yeah, the hog.

Oh, yeah.

What's your position on that?

We never exported a lot of hogs.

So we export some.

And I think it's good, because the Japanese are often the customers of us.

I'm from West Coast.

There's a lot of trading going on, and it's good business.

And we started exporting logs, and we let them integrate.

Logs went down, sawmills in Japan.

Well, it's not bad to let them build up and utilize that often for the road back to London.

If they don't use our logs, they'll be using someone else's.

Now, if we weren't in this housing boom, you wouldn't hear anything about it much.

But in this housing boom, of course, all the home builders are going to think about it, but it's not going to give them one stick more of lumber.

Because if you don't use logs, they will take lumber for the time being.

So it's going to end up going to Japan anyway.

And really, since they do have it integrated, for some reason, they'll take more of the logs than they'll the lumber.

Like if a log, they'll pay $200 for a log, but if you make it in a lumber, they won't pay you but $150 for the lumber.

It's a beautiful situation.

Now, I guess they must feel that if they take that log and carry it in the inventory and they can make it in the size number they want, when they want it.

That's the only thing I can figure out.

But for some reason, they're just paying more for logs when I think it's done good business.

And I think we need the dollars.

I think the reason that they are concerned about it, I suppose, is that it creates a shortage and pushes up the price.

Well, that's what they're hollering about, but I don't think really that's true, because it's going to all speak its own level.

They don't get it from us, they don't get it from Canadians.

We are importing a lot of Canadians, and I think we've got to look at it as one overall market.

And they buy a lot of thoughts, they buy a lot of chips, and they buy a lot of things.

Now, we are exporting some logs, and we'd like to continue doing it, because like I said, we can get so much more while we're going in logs, and we can't have made it in the other one.

And we have a restriction on them that you can't export government timber except to the extent of a small percentage.

It's just private.

that's being exported.

The big exporters went out, and then you drop down to a whole lot of small ones, and we don't export a lot.

But I think it's a good thing to keep...

I've heard this all night.

It comes up.

I can see the, frankly, biggest learning for us is the foreign exchange.

There's damn little Japanese buyouts.

It's all logs, it's all wheat.

Well, it's raw material.

Their market is just so welcome to us.

They're awful big chip buyers.

We've got excess chips on the West Coast.

That's the byproduct of making lemon and lime.

Oh, is that why chips are known?

Yeah, our chips.

See, they take it over and make pop out of it.

Oh, yeah.

And they have big buyers of chips.

If they weren't buying them, we'd have better money.

And right now, there's excess on the west side.

Some of them are being burned up right now because there's enough being burned up right now.

But this lemon flower block would be as good as it is.

And this building going on, it's made of large excess.

So they've been awful good customers.

And we do a lot of business with them.

And it gets to you.

I mean, I already have up to what day?

Oh, you bet.

I know.

They're the toughest people to work with.

You can always count on that.

That's right.

You should catch him.

That's right.

He's just very honorable.

Yeah.

And they have all these dollars over there, and they'd like to do a lot more with the United States.

I'm going over there in about a couple weeks to talk to all the trading companies to see what their ideas are over the next four or five years, what they would like to do.

And what they'd like to do is get into the joint ventures over here.

I don't know to what extent that would be good for the country, but...

I think that's very important.

I think it's good.

Keep it in the free world.

Yeah.

Well, we're going to see them all in a couple weeks.

We've got to find a way to kind of see them all.

Thinking, you know, next full five years.

Good business relations.

Yeah.

It's very important to us.

Yeah.

We always encourage you to come out there.

That's good.

The third thing I'm going to mention about the railroad, Pennsylvania in particular, and we've been concerned about that.

One of our vice presidents has been trying to

organize our shippers and try to help in that situation, and we've been working on that.

And one of the things that really bothers us is the labor situation, this fellow there.

Oh, my goodness.

It's, uh, I wish there was some way to straighten that thing out, but it's gone.

Well, we go through that.

Yeah.

I think that's one of the chief things wrong with it, and if we let it go there, it'll go over into the other industry.

get worse, and now since it's one world and we're competing with, not only because of the United States, but because it's in Japan and because it's everywhere else, you've got to have fishing operations.

And really, there's no place today to talk about that.

Elsewhere, we're going to lose out.

And if you get that thing straightened out,

get rid of it.

As you know, we've fought that big time and time again.

It's the labor situation.

I remember years ago, I worked with Roger Bala in 1959.

He was a school's guy.

He was on the one side of the contract for labor.

Law was standard in that case.

It was not the numbers.

He said we could get a change in the work rules.

Yeah, the work rules would come out.

Boy, they knew it was going to be an argument.

Yeah.

Basically, they're spending a lot of money on the railroads.

Yeah.

That's true.

I know.

I'm quite aware.

See, it makes it difficult for us to get it out.

If you've got the railroads and we haven't got that idea.

And once the government of some of them came out saying, okay, we're going to do away with it, even to the extent of doing away with it through attrition.

I don't see where our union is going to go on with that.

We're working on it.

I talk to them about that.

Sometimes they listen, sometimes they don't.

Well, you've done a good job overall.

We're trying not to keep it going all the while.

I'm not asking for too much weight.

It's very exciting.

Their members say, well, of course, you know, they're going to help.

Why shouldn't we get more?

Now, actually, the rate of inflation, even with food prices in, is still going at about a 3% level.

You know, if there's a food price thing, you think, well, you're in some kind of, you know, this year.

So that's the weight of the pre-economy, isn't it?

Yeah.

It's always the one I'm talking about.

Well, you know, that doesn't bother me particularly.

If the weight is low, I'm going to go over it.

So now we have real production.

In a real way, it should really go up a little bit.

Sure.

To be in a good economy.

We've got to be catching at least inflation in any country in the world.

I know.

It always amuses me that the Europeans squeal about their concern about the American inflation.

My God.

Yeah.

What are they talking about?

Japan is higher.

Germany is higher.

England is higher.

Yeah.

Italy is higher.

France is higher.

They don't win for the same way.

Japan, wages go up by 15% a year.

Well, that's all right, so long as, I mean, so long as things are in balance.

If your real wage is going up, I think it's healthy.

If your real wage is going down, well, then you're out.

And I think you've got to keep, I don't know, like, percentages.

Oh, these people, God, that's the worst of the country.

Just like these POWs, that's what they remind everybody of when they come back.

Yeah.

And good for the American people to see that.

That's right.

I see, as I understand it, a problem there is to get problems off the receptionist.

And if we can get the problems that had to be done, you know, it's a total problem.

I think you guys are going the right way.

The state value of cutting out these programs is not to do with this.

It's tough, but we've got a force that the Congress may overrule us on some, but if we can't do it, it'll never be done.

No.

It'll just continue to grow.

That's right.

Collapse.

And just like what you've said, a lot of money will just go away most of it.

Well, I appreciate the chance to talk to you.

Thank you for your help.

I wish you well.

Well, thank you.

I have a different philosophy than many that have been in this office.

President Eisenhower, of course.

I think what's good for business is good for the country.

I think so.

And a lot of other guys know that now.

Yeah.

George and Amy, Frank, Ben Simmons, you know, they're tough partners, but they don't want business to go down.

No.

They want it to go up.

No.

No, I think that's true.

Right.

I think that's true.

Well, I appreciate it.

Good to see you as well.

It's my best for all the board members and so forth.

That door looks like it goes out.

I need a room.

Thank you.

Nixon, Pamplin & Bull on Antitrust regulation and Federal Trade Commission

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Nixon Library Finding Aid

Also recorded on March 6, 1973

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