Conversation 870-007

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That's right.

And walk out, you know, the mayors of Detroit, Columbus, Ohio, and the rest.

So I come in and say, thank you very much, and I'll answer your question.

What the hell do I come for?

But anyway, that's my problem.

Louie Loftus, he wants to do it before Congress.

He's probably going to move quickly and try to beat John.

He's still in that comic on the switch.

Everybody dead is fine.

The court thinks that it's urgent.

I'm apparently not sure why they pulled him off of the road.

Somebody said, not because he doesn't, he's forever present.

I think he should do it after 74.

Switch after 74.

I said, you delayed it.

I said, the horse will let the fire.

That's right.

Perkins is an interesting guy to keep.

I need an okay tonight on that.

Undersecretary of HUD, which we had a candidate all set on, this guy William Sutton, that we've had to drop it because he's going to go, his firm is up before a grand jury on an alleged SEC violation, and he's going to be questioned if he even could be indicted, although it's almost impossible.

But they're dropping him, and Jim Lynn very much wants to go, and our people all agree with Lloyd Hyde.

Jesus Christ.

Okay.

On the grounds, Liz, well, I thought, he's doing it on the grounds of using it for city relations.

You know, trying to keep the waters where you were well aware of the fact that you're not making any calls for us.

I thought that Liz would be able to run the park.

Yeah, he's the manager of the school of ice and all that.

He hasn't, so there's other folks in there who are going to do all that.

I won't be much.

We will make points as far as using it.

You did a hell of a job on the campaign.

I don't think you can give it that.

I guess you have to restore it.

If it comes up, just to say, other capitals should make a suggestion.

I can provide their departments the answer, you know.

I did these because of some of the things that were wrong.

I don't want to go through that hard.

Yeah, I'm on your mind.

I think that I'm coming more and more often.

Maybe we have to grab this thing.

Okay.

Well, not too much stuff in there.

hours a day.

I think it's productive.

But I rather think that we're sort of overdoing it.

And you've got to do some of the non-productive stuff.

But you shouldn't get smacked up in a day like this.

Because you've gone now full tilt from 8.30 this morning until 6 o'clock tonight.

And now you only have an hour off.

And you've got to get some thoughts together, right?

And then you've got another three hours.

I agree it's going to be tougher on Mario.

I know he did a hell of a job on us, but I'm just not going to do it anymore.

It's not actually exciting.

Yeah.

And you get these two done, and then the normal flow, we've got to keep working them in on the other end.

But that's all.

You know, everybody's like a sponge.

I guess what really happens is that

I had to get an assistant secretary to get some more.

You know what I mean?

Each one of the events is very worthwhile.

As to whether any, as to whether perhaps we ought to turn it.

This is probably each one sets a whole chain of motion.

Every one of the things you would do, you'd be glad to do, but at the time you do them all, it's too much time.

I thought we got to order.

John is pushing now, but there's a question for him.

One of the fields that I should go to when we start out is

for the country's regional meetings and press briefings and so forth and so on.

I think those goddamn things were not winners.

John disagrees.

He thinks we got lost.

He looked at the press briefings and all the rest and so forth and so on and so on, et cetera.

But I am not of the view, I'm just not of the view that I should do it.

I think, hey, we

to go out and attack people for that purpose.

It's pretty big.

Do I have to go out there to take these goddamn cabinet officers out with me?

No, but you probably do have to do something.

True.

That is publicly visible.

That put your office, that I think it can't be from here.

I just wonder why not, through the agony of Chicago and, you know, and having to shake hands with all of them.

I wouldn't go through the press briefings.

Maybe something out in the country in a different way.

But I don't know what it is.

The press briefings, I don't think they were going to get into that.

And you see, I think what John is saying, you know, this is what we did before.

You see, you know, it was not like it was different.

That's right.

Do go again.

It ain't novel.

It ain't there.

I've met these people before.

They've seen it before.

We've taken that show to the road.

Ain't no problem.

I guess the whole problem is the lack of leadership.

We have a catapulted work ship.

We have a congressman.

He should be helping us out.

Yeah, they've got a massive plan to ruin the whole certification.

I think they'll get other people out to get a lot of money out of that.

Let me ask you about this hand exercise tonight.

I'm just thinking of the fact that

The other thing is that I did a report like, you know, in the Anderson area.

I did a report like, you know, in the Anderson area.

The other thing is that it was changed that.

But anyway, I really think that we ought to go there.

Take a leisurely time shaking hands with them.

But I think when we shake hands with them, that they should not go right into the table.

What I'm getting at is it takes, you know, like 20 minutes to shake hands.

Yeah, but he's standing up.

I would say that after that shake-hand cocktail, it's just...

We can do that.

We've done that.

And then you wait for the line to be about three-fourths done.

And then you have everything in the track.

Because it only takes, especially with men, it only takes a few minutes to get it.

And also if you could put somebody over there to help preserve the goddamn thing in reasonable speed and time.

I don't want to rattle too much, because here's why I make it.

What I don't want to do, I looked over the list, Bob, and I don't want to get caught afterwards individually by these guys, right?

I think I should go over, I think I should sit through the whole damn evening.

You know what I mean?

Turn me over by 8, 8.30, 9 o'clock.

I should get up, I should talk, and I should leave.

You agree or not?

I sure did.

Say, John, every coffee occurs, and I know that many of you cannot...

I wouldn't say because you, when you get into the disorganized part of the brandy afterwards, that's when you're having trouble.

That's when some guy, when you're going to get cornered, that wouldn't kind of understand you.

I just like 30 minutes.

Yeah, that's going to happen.

Yeah.

They're not going to like it as well.

Oh, Jesus.

Look, they're at the White House.

They get a chance to talk to you in the land with those stolen lines.

Yeah.

Who's going to be able to handle that?

Who's going to?

So you think we can get by this?

Maury, you know, he is a tenacious follower.

Yeah, that's all right.

That's the main thing.

I just told him to stay and talk a little while.

Don't ask.

I mean, just don't get into it.

I won't do that.

Just...

When you're leaving, don't say, I've got to go upstairs or anything like that.

Just walk out and go.

Tell us.

Half of them won't know you're gone.

They'll think you're in the other room.

They'll think you're not in the room.

Yeah, we can talk about doing something.

I don't know.

I just don't know how our role should be played.

Well, we're...

I don't... What I want you to know is I am not...

I am not sold on the idea of going out and doing the same thing with the regional companies.

See, it's this gentleman's idea, and I've never even heard it from any staff people to understand that you cannot do exactly the same thing.

You talk about, yeah, it's exactly what I raised your hand with.

And that's the tendency.

They always go back to it.

something we've already done instead of looking for something different to do.

There has to be, just like that was a new thing to do, there's got to be a new thing to do now.

I do think you need something visible.

The president does something on this, but you don't have to plot all over the country.

The media reading is not the answer.

Those were for ourselves.

We're trying to butter up the local media, which we don't need to do anymore, I mean, for election purposes.

We're trying on endorsements and the editorial support business while we want editorial support.

We've done that.

Well, let's think about it.

I don't like to do anything.

Then, I told John, I said, you just sort of scheduled for the next three weeks to talk me on how we're going to do it.

And he looked impressed.

I mean, you know, I also told him that we can't do it unless, you know, you just take a day job somewhere else.

He said, we are going to take something else out.

Like, for example, now we won't see the majors and the majors.

These other people have heard of them.

We're going to get them out of this.

We're going to get them out.

You know, sometimes, Bob, when you're talking about these schedules, I think that you could take the guys from now on and let them see what you see.

What do you do then?

I have.

What would you leave out of those?

What do they say?

What they say is, well, next week you have...

Well, you have Wednesday cleared.

I said, well, yeah, there's a reason for that.

It's not so that you can add more things.

It's so that you can get ready for all the other things you've got to do.

And get caught up on the things you can't plan ahead.

They want me not to go to Florida for three days.

No.

That's not.

That there's.

I think the brewery operation has failed.

The client may have to change it and get somebody else.

He's got a few people who are going to put ads in the newspapers.

I don't think that the mail thing started.

They're not getting any.

At least they say they're not.

Talk to Bryce about that.

His operation failed, too.

I wouldn't want it.

Thank you.

I think you've got to work another week or so before you're going to know where you've got the mail going.

But that doesn't mean you rely on what he's got.

He's started.

That's all he's done.

Colson's never got any mail either.

Except on one or two issue things where we've really got people cranked up.

The problem with this is I don't think we have people cranked up.

I don't think...

This is a big issue in Washington.

Everybody's all excited to hear about, you know, are you going to hold up the budget and all that?

Not in the country.

I don't think you have people worried about that.

Well, if you ask people, they say they don't want to hire taxes, but I don't think you're going to find that people are really screaming about their taxes are too high.

Now, they will have taxed them, but that's...

This next six weeks is a good time to work on this when they're paying their taxes.

But both of them... What was my society's main thing to recommend after your meeting with my greater-grandfather-in-law?

That I should have the meeting with the Congressmen all night?

Well, not any continuing of that thing.

What they do feel should be done at some point, and the debate is on how and when, is that you should call in all of the ranking members with the leadership.

Bryce said it was a standard idea that you should call them in for a drink in the library and sit all around in a circle.

You should sit in the middle and you say, okay, fellas, now we've got to work together here.

We've got a lot of problems, and I'd like you to tell me, here I am.

Now just let's unload.

Let's get the decks cleared and find out what's wrong here, and then let's get to work.

And that started to carry the day for a while.

And finally, Dennis said, Bryce, that would be totally counterproductive.

It would accomplish absolutely nothing.

You'd get into the most incredible kind of nitpicking and pitching.

stuff that the president can't, first of all, can't do anything about, and secondly, if he could, shouldn't do anything about, and that actually none of us can.

You get back to old Mrs. Carl Curtis' problem, we find out, is some guy that we didn't appoint to some commission three years ago.

who we did appoint or offered an appointment to a commission he was qualified for, and he turned it down because he wants to keep his job on the Hill.

Curtis wants to get him off the Hill and wanted us to appoint him to the SEC or something, which the guy is totally unqualified for.

And that's what he's mad about.

The advertising guys around the president don't understand this.

Well, he'll go through all that kind of stuff.

And to tell you the story, that's ridiculous.

And he

argues that the other way, that we ought to go on, if we're going to do something like that, he's not at all sure it's a good idea, but he's not, he didn't argue against it because everybody else said it wasn't a good idea.

He says the way to do it is for you to come in just the other way and say, look, I've been doing some checking and I've heard some things from around the country and you folks are in trouble down the hill.

You've got a real problem and I'd like to help on it.

Now,

Let's get down to how we can solve your problem instead of asking them how to solve the president's problems.

And hit them hard.

People want this.

We've got to work together to do this.

We've got a chance here to do something right.

We've got to hang together.

They feel that you need to do one shot on the presidential level to mobilize our leadership

so-called, I took the devil's advocate role all the way through this, and they're totally negative on every point.

They don't mean that.

That's what they don't mean.

They think it doesn't help.

They think it doesn't.

And Bryce also argues that the leadership meeting pattern is not the way to do it now, that you should meet with full leadership every Tuesday morning.

Yeah, that's what we do.

For a faster planned meeting, an agended meeting,

before the leadership meeting, you should have two of them and rotate them for breakfast with you first.

And then you bring those two into the meeting and put the rest of them, and the next week you have two others.

He says that any meeting on a frequent basis with the bipartisan leadership is a very bad idea.

We don't mind.

That they will have no

that you have to have.

One on energy, one on that, one on that.

That's all we're planning.

Trade.

One on trade, one on energy.

That's all trade.

And I agree.

Why do you want a good meeting every week?

Because you're in the heat of the battle and you need to

Do you think you guys have to lose Texas as you're talking about this big mess?

John Tower, those people that need to keep in touch, need to get the orders each week, keep the fight going.

I don't think so, neither does Bill.

But I'm a lousy judge.

By the time we turn the crank, though, they'll be in here.

The top leaders would be in here every week.

And he saw that every week.

I think that's something you've got to think about, even with the leadership, that you've got to do what you did a couple of times once in a while, where you charge in and

Bank it to them for about five minutes and walk outside the door.

Let them sit there with their teeth wrapped and figure out what to do.

You can't do that very often.

I just thought that was really going to help us out.

It came up slightly to other people, other things that I would need to get out.

Oh, all the rights have to go to the state court.

What would he do about some of the other things?

Cancel them.

That's what you would come down to.

He's only, this ranking member thing, he would only do once.

No, if you have a secretary leader, he's going to be down on his feet.

And why do you do four?

And you have breakfast with him.

Do you agree with that?

I have to do that.

Yeah, well, that's his, you know, that's his social background.

They all agree, I recall.

They all agree that the thing we've got to understand is that the social route, this thing, was an essential starting point.

It was not a waste.

It wasn't an erroneous idea.

It was an absolute essential.

And it was good to do it at the beginning of the session, get that behind you.

But we've got to recognize that isn't the answer.

This is the total answer, that you also need the other stuff.

I think that the idea of a meal in the morning, it used to be worth it.

I used to have a beer or something at some time.

But it wasn't necessary.

Well, this idea seems to me, you change it.

You use two different ones each week.

And it would be a chance for each other to get to know you.

I don't think of your real close personal ties

to the president.

And I don't think so.

I have a whole bunch of references if necessary.

Put one on each side.

I don't think it's a good idea.

I've done the reference before.

It takes a half hour to three quarters of an hour and you screw around and this and that.

The best way to do it is to have them in there and do business like it.

I've got to do it my own way.

We're going to do it now.

Let's try this a while.

Scott, you work four leaders every other week and leaders every other week.

I don't know if you'll be headed every other week, every whatever, what day of the week, every Tuesday.

We're in there every third week.

We're in there every third week, four or five hours.

Yeah, if we have one, but we may not have one this week.

Maybe you didn't understand what I was saying.

I didn't mean to have one every day.

We only plan three, five hours of meetings.

For the first six months, that's all.

And you do those as you're writing on this, don't you?

I'm sure.

And otherwise, you keep trying to crack on this.

Yeah.

Wow.

What a very productive meeting, wasn't it?

Oh, yeah, it was.

They had some other good ideas.

And I'm sure you can talk about it.

It'll work for me.

What a regular meeting for us.

Yeah, he basically agreed with this.

He says, you've got to meet with the ranking Republicans.

That's important.

That I didn't agree.

He also suggested another, which was with all the members of House Appropriations, Republican members of House Appropriations.

They completely agree with concentration on the House.

The point that you can't ignore the Senate, but you...

Because you've got an endeavor .

He makes the point where he said, the reason the mood is bad has nothing to do with the White House.

It's to do with the lobbyists.

He said, the people are moving in on those guys, and they're making them uncomfortable.

And that creates the bad mood.

Good point.

He said, every special interest .

Every ox that is up there swinging.

Those guys don't like being put to the fire.

What I do about going to the country is I'm not sure that's going to change their attitudes.

You see, that's my concern.

I'm not sure that early going out, for example, and doing Detroit Economic Club had one goddamn new effect on it.

congressman from there.

That's my point.

I'm not sure that our going to Chicago and doing a regional briefing will have any effect on Midwestern congressmen and senators.

I'm just not sure it will.

John's idea is that you'd take Congressman Whitman out of it.

I'd be impressed by that.

I'd take him on the plane.

Well, or have him there.

But I don't know what that would do either, really.

Oh, I'm afraid...

Because he's talking about changing up public support.

He's changing up, I don't know.

You see, he's like, what are we trying to do?

Get editorials, get mail, all that.

But that we don't need to do.

Well, he thinks I have to do it.

Well, he's after all the crowd.

Maybe he's right.

Maybe he's just not.

Maybe he can get a reason to do it.

Maybe he has to do it.

Christ, what the hell is he doing?

Get his ass out there.

I don't see that he's doing too much.

He stays to you now.

Right, you made a very good point there, Steve.

I was afraid of him around.

I said, good, all right.

He's about to be doing well or anything like that.

I think what that's hard to think is that all of our people that were in the bus all trying to do something tonight, they feel kind of, kind of thwarted a little bit.

And it depresses the shit out of them to deal with the Congress.

Right?

Yeah?

I see why.

Just take a beating there.

Yeah, there.

They're not a very stimulating group to deal with.

You rush up there and just kick the shit out of them.

They never say a positive thing about anybody, but it means not one.

It's not true.

It's true.

You know what I think it would be brilliant if they could do?

For people like Sam, who crashed all night, I was never going to touch her.

Never, ever.

We are going to offer people that are not good people, people that are, people that are sick.

I can't imagine there was, but there's nothing like it when I was here.

And I don't think that we didn't actually have either Johnson's or any of those people, did we?

They may have, but they had the staff for us.

That's right, yeah.

Good luck.

So you'd be bleeding out at the end of this thing.

I'd just walk out.

That's right.

That's what I planned to do, but I just don't want to have any more.

I think we left without a chance to fully wrap the afterwards.

They don't need that chance.

They're getting into the White House.

They're getting to dinner.

Talk to each other.

Talk to the staff, people that are there.

I wouldn't stay if he tugged around.

Well, I wouldn't stay if he tugged around.

It just, yeah.

Well, one of the things we've learned is only to satisfy a few people at the state dinners and also at the state dinners and at the evenings.

We forgot the state dinners.

We've gone back to shaking hands with the other guests.

We're absolutely right.

Mainly because

We just haven't had an adequate White House staffer who could bring anybody up that didn't know how to do it.

And frankly, I always get some jackass, I mean, like a Del Webb or something like that.

Believe it or not, they had him at my table tonight.

Oh, God.

Where's he gone?

Yeah, he's gone.

See, a lot of people don't even know that he's an ass.

Well, anyway, it's the end of me.

Yep.

He's famous, that's why.

Yeah.

So they think it's important.

And now they mean well, they do well.

I think what that's part of is that all of our people have been working their butts off trying to do something to make it feel kind of, kind of forward and it depresses the shit out of them to deal with the Congress.

Right?

Now, I see why.

Just take a beating there.

Yeah, there.

You're not in a very stimulating mood to deal with.

You rush up there and just kick the shit out of him.

They never say an apology to anybody.

Not one.

It's not true.

Oh, did you want to do it with me?

You know, when I think of these brilliant things we do, for people like Sam, who crashed all night, I was never going to touch her.

I never had to touch her.

It's weird when you offer people like that.

You look at the city, you look at the community, you look at the university.

Hours and hours and hours.

It never was done for me.

I can't imagine there was.

There's nothing like it here.

Then I don't think the United States or Johnson's or any of those people did it.

They may have.

They had a staff for it.

That's right.

Okay.

Good luck.

So you'd be bleeding out at the end of this thing.

I'd just walk out.

That's right.

That's what I planned to do, but I just don't want to have any more.

I think we left without a chance to fully wrap me afterwards.

They don't need that chance.

They're getting into the White House.

They're getting to dinner.

Talk to each other.

Talk to the staff, people that are there.

I wouldn't say it'd be tucked around.

It'd just, yeah.

Well, one of the things we've learned is it'll only satisfy a few people at the state dinners and at the, also at the state dinners and at the meetings.

We've got the state dinners who, you know, have gone back to shaking hands with the other guests.

We're absolutely right in doing that.

Mainly because

We just haven't had an adequate White House staffer who could bring anybody up that didn't know how to do it.

And frankly, I always get some jackass, I mean, like a Del Webb or something like that.

Believe it or not, they had him at my table because I kind of pushed him off.

He had an honor like Jeffrey Boston.

See, a lot of people don't even know that he's an ass.

Well, anyway, it's the end of me.

Yep.

He's famous, that's why.

Yeah.

So they think it's important.

And now they do well.