On March 13, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon, H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman, and John W. Dean, III met in the Oval Office of the White House from 12:42 pm to 2:00 pm. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 878-014 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
Our judge called me home last night and, no, an ambassador, he said, I just, you know, I didn't even want to do it, but I just, before we move on bail, I just thought I ought to make the point that I know him awfully well.
He is one of the nicest and one of the dumbest guys around.
And he has not well bought us in the trade, Paul Miller,
And I played golf with him.
He's been trying to get a job, get out of the paper.
He was very unhappy with me last flight.
He's been trying to get a job for a long time.
Paul and I have been trying to help him on it.
But he said, I just probably know what you're doing.
I'm putting you on a journey.
He said, what we need there is a guy like Ingersoll or Rush.
And Bill is not an Ingersoll or a Rush.
He completely agrees we should put a business
I know that I'd like to.
I'd like to.
Okay.
The problem is, as soon as we put the ones in in life, we lose the seat for one we need.
He said also, he was surprised at the Keating idea because he's so old, but he says, I think he'll basically be a good ambassador.
The one I think we call the drop corner.
Yeah, absolutely.
He said, I don't oppose it at all.
The only problem you've got there is the ravine.
a point of point of telling me that the president had assured Mrs. Rubin that the next ambassador to Israel would be a professional.
Bullshit.
And she raised a fight with a posse, I guess you could say.
Don't worry.
That's a pure, pure, it's not what I figured because it was never, they were very good at that, never.
But we don't want a professional there.
A professional would screw us up.
I don't know what Tom does.
I have no way of
I've met him, and he's a nice guy, but I have no way of knowing whatever he's got.
And he'd be dumb.
That's what I'm having to check it out.
That's, Phil just put it, finally, he's just, he's just blanked out.
What did we find that gave that job to her to give up?
They haven't given it yet.
Remember, that's a place that one of our, one of our business doesn't make a shit who goes there, really.
None at all.
That's a hell of a job, too.
I don't think they'll want it.
He's such a dang nice guy, he'd probably be a bitch right now.
Who knows if he's done or not, I'm not sure.
I'm never sure.
I have no way of judging what Bill's motives were in any way.
Well, I don't know.
Because it came through.
And they probably presumed it did, although I told them it was not, that this was yours.
I said this came out of a Simon Nelson race.
No, no, that's a key excuse.
Sure.
It came through.
It's just an idea of a good, solid guy.
He might not be repeating that, but I believe that, so I don't argue with you.
Should I talk to Henry?
Because he was going to talk to Dale.
He may have already offered up a job.
He's always going to have to sit.
There's a complication on your side.
Yeah, there's a complication on it.
We have to move on.
We've got to hold out on it until we see what the situation is with the Germans and the soldiers and somebody else.
I don't know whether we can get off of it or not.
You should be testing immediately to know that he's over here still.
I guess that's what you want.
Finally got to Christian, they just got back from staying.
And he said they didn't spend the whole weekend talking about it.
I mean, why not?
He says, John feels very strongly that you ought to do it in Houston, that he doesn't want a high profile.
I gave him the arguments the other way, and he says, well George said I agree with you, and it is helpful to get this back because I've got to read them, and I think you're right.
And I think John's wrong.
I think he's kidding himself.
He's trying to be cute about it, playing it low.
And it just isn't a low profile thing.
And I mean, I totally appreciate a little advance notice, because it would help us to be sure some people .
and talked to Dan, and he's all set to crank up the machinery, and he's going to talk to Christian.
He activated that one, you know, sort of one separate little book.
Christian said their feeling was that any welcoming statements from Republicans would be very worthwhile.
Really?
Oh yeah, he said John should be welcome to the Republican Party.
I was pressed to let him, yeah.
But then he said that what you should not do is try to use that as the trigger for an overt effort to move other people over, because you won't get enough to make it look good.
And it'll look like you tried something and failed.
He said you can't stop something.
I wouldn't go nowhere with him anyway.
Rose said, we will work on it.
I just don't want to make it look like there's a massive drive, because it won't.
And how does a massive drive, which didn't totally concur, said he had to use it for something.
Oh, yeah.
I said, I do be sure to line up hope for that field.
I mean, I want, you know, I've got a little bit of what I want to have, so.
to get an announcement out very soon.
Or maybe should I stay a Thursday in my first conference?
Not a bad idea, I can say without a doubt.
Did anything come out of your conversation with this guy yesterday as to change any of the plan or have anything to do with it?
I wish I didn't have a brief in the State Department, and I would do it, primarily.
I mean, that's the way for me to do it, rather than getting a speech.
I would be authorized, I would do it, and maybe I would petition to do a little, but I mean, I think that they would prefer to hear me give them the word, or, of course, I could give them the original answer, absolutely.
I could go over and make the numbers I need, go and give them an hour's briefing, and I'm just doing it.
here's the world, here's what's happening, here's what we're going to do.
That's a good idea, because they're going to be out talking this out to their service in the same sense as any other group, and they're going to not be in money, have a hell of a lot of success.
There must be no press.
See, this is something that I would not have.
No goddamn press, no text available.
I will make it available to them on an extracurricular basis, and I'm not going to hide one.
I'm not sure that we should have the press in an evening affair, and I'll tell you why.
I don't want the press to grab most people.
You know, Ali, Stephen Denton, and Reisner were well controlled.
I can see they're under enormous emotional stress.
And these guys, if the press gets up to them, something could be said to their wives.
They don't know.
They'll go zero right in on a few bad ones there.
And I think that would be just the wrong thing.
I don't know how you can do it without having the press.
I think they have the press come and say, we're keeping them away from them.
Just have them cut the entertainment.
I don't want the press to make it.
That's the point.
And if you let them throw the entertainment, you have a problem.
Because they will make it.
We can sure do it.
It's a private party.
I don't want to exploit it.
Put it that way.
Why not?
And I'll just say it that way.
It's like a stag party.
It's their party.
It's not for anybody else.
They're not going to be any taller than Bob or anything else.
You know what I mean?
That's it.
It goes completely to the other thing.
And that way, I keep the press from doing that.
It is their party.
It's not going to be private.
It's not going to be televised.
We're not going to be exploiting them.
This isn't done for publicity.
It's done solely for that.
That's all I have to say.
I know what's going to happen.
I know the press will get out of these guys.
Yeah.
And, and, and go to some bad servers.
On opposite pages, maybe I should... No, I don't think it does.
I mean, it's one thing that greatly does concern me, because if they were being able to mind their stuff and do everything, and they teach, they're both going to college, go to college, go to high school, go to basketball, they're going to be in Nashville, one of the southern assholes, they've got a television program and so forth.
These guys have got too much of a story to tell.
They have a very way, too much of a story to tell.
I don't know who the hell even got a hold of them.
I don't, don't send the scope around and ask him if he has some kind of comprehension of this guy.
What do you have in mind?
Well, we've got to go to the, to our first thing here and then from here to the, what do you, to the shields and that kind of stuff?
And say, now look, with regard to these people, I think, I think the odds are the odds, the top people show the scope around them, who they are, the shields and so forth.
And say, look, here they are.
I think we welcome some advice as to what to do and what not to do.
You know what I mean?
They've got an enormous number of things.
Good God, they're going to have to question the right folks.
Well, they're going to have to.
They're going to have to question the whole television program.
They'll get it done.
I mean, some will exploit them.
Some will want to pay them.
Some will not.
They won't know what to do about that.
i just wanted to be i mean i just think it's just wrong for somebody to get there so let's have them put them up there like a couple of months
I don't think everybody will look at them.
I don't want the dinner here.
They'll probably want to show them off someplace else.
Every event that happens, we'll have to have a P.O.W.
People are aggressive.
I'm not going to do it.
I'm not going to have an event to show them off.
They will.
The roller derby, the football games, the basketball playoffs.
I figured I'd have a P.O.W.
The other thing is that I do think
I do think that you might think of one thing, because I think you might have got a little bit of a cue, and thought that I can't come to the radio for it, because I'm in trouble.
But I think the ideal thing would be to have them come to the church, and have their own first call.
Does that sound pretty good?
Because they're a hell of an asset.
How does that sound to you, first of all?
Yeah, because that's a national event.
I think they should be on some national events.
They're very impressive.
Like, they'll be asked to go on, I don't know, let's see, on the cataracts or whatever, so they're going to get murdered.
Yeah.
By the voters.
By the voters, she's murdered.
I don't want them exposed to that.
I've asked a ton of questions.
I just wanted to handle it.
I wanted somebody to be on top of it with the Defense Department.
The Defense Department, they say, are going to let the job .
I thought of this, and I haven't mentioned it to them, I just asked them what they were doing, and I could see that they're doing it, and these are big shots, but he's got some little guys, and we've got Barry, we've got that, and you two meeting, the BFW meeting, Raffle, you know, great, he'll be on LMS, and the guys don't think they like it at first, because they're getting some attention, and then they realize that they're getting caught up, and they're being neck and screw about it, so I think that
But if you get somebody to handle it here, they should go cover it.
Oh, I haven't even heard the name of it.
I'm not sure.
Who can do it?
Oh, the wrong speaker can do it.
That's Rob.
You know, handle out of there and go there.
This is really impressive because they trust.
But his appearances, I think it's more a partner than that type of people.
A lot of us get to look at it.
His appearances are, his appearances.
They're being invited to learn about the intersection.
That's
Did you raise a question about Colson as a consultant?
No, I didn't.
The thought was, well, if the consultant is not doing any consulting, does he want to continue protection solely for the purpose of executive protection?
One of those things is.
kept down in that personnel office and nothing's done on it.
Well, Chabon doesn't have quite the same problems appearing at Colson Well.
You have the same problems as Chabon appearing at Bridgesville.
Well, that would be such an obvious problem to have both of those consultants.
That would work.
I think he's right.
That you can't make Chapman, that's all right.
We've already said he's not God.
Yeah.
Because we wanted the separation.
The question is, are you thinking of letting, as of now, the way they've interpreted executive privilege is that you're not going to let Chapman testify anyway.
Because it applies to executive privilege.
It applies to the former people in relation to matters while they were here.
And the problem area is that.
That same thing.
He's concerned about what he's doing.
Colson's concerned about what he's doing from now on.
He would apply the consulting thing to what, to if you recall, regarding actions taken now.
That's right.
That relate to, what are the actions?
He could be out stirring up, you know, counter news attacks and things of this nature.
Correct.
Correct.
No, no, but he's consulting.
He said, you know, a wide-open consultancy doesn't mean he consults with you.
Your idea is just to put this in the drawer and keep it in the drawer and not decide that it would be a consultant without pay.
Not even tell Chuck.
Well, just tell Chuck something.
Put something in the drawer and just say, where is it?
I will tell him.
He's not saying anything.
The point would be to date it back last Saturday so it's
Continuous.
That is consultant B stopped at the present time, but he's still available for those consulting various problems.
Right.
I'm a consultant.
Yes.
We have some of those.
There are a lot of those.
Well.
Yeah.
Uh, before going into that, uh, uh, I was wondering about that, about that little, uh, uh, jackassery about some kid that was, you know, penetrating a piece of wood, which, of course, is a perfectly proper crush.
I don't think it worked.
I mean, well, I would expect that Wheeler had only penetrated that one.
The only, the only problem there, the president didn't get paid.
Uh, he was paid, uh, by Jack.
He was paid by personal track of another person over there who in turn was taken out of expense money.
When the ultimate source of money invested quickly would be amortization, it was pre-April 7th money.
There could be some potential embarrassment for Ken Reese along the way.
Oh, word of man.
So he is, but I think it's a confined situation.
Obviously it's something that's going to come up with the urban hearings, but...
It's not another new Liddy Hunt operation.
Well, it's such a shit-ass little thing.
Oh, it is.
It is.
I mean, what happened to the kid?
Did he just decide to be a hero?
That's right.
He apparently chatted about it around school.
And the word got out, and he got in front of it, and he knew he chatted about it.
And so there he was.
It's absurd.
It is.
He didn't do anything illegal.
Apparently, you haven't been able to do anything online.
Well, I have, sir.
No, to the .
No.
I have all of the information that we have finished, that we've collected.
There is some there.
And I've turned it over to Baruti.
Baruti is having a speech drafted for Barry Goldwater.
And there's enough material there to make a rather sensational speech, just by why the hell isn't somebody looking into what happened to President Nixon during his campaign?
Look at these events.
How do you explain these?
We're in the interest of these questions.
There's enough of a thread.
And I've pulled all the information.
Well, the senator then should also present it to the Urban Committee and demand that that be included.
He is a senator.
What I'm working on there is a letter to Senator Urban saying, this has come to my attention, why shouldn't this be a part of the billboard?
And he can spring out of 64 and then quickly to 72.
Why didn't the fire department do it before?
Just that was enough stuff.
It couldn't have been anybody paying attention.
For example, the investigation was supposed to continue.
That's very important.
If they're going to go to a gallery, there's a whole bunch of stuff hanging there.
The record you were talking about is too bad.
I know.
That's part of the problem.
That will be an issue that we have.
There is a crew working on it also.
Do you need any IRS or something else?
No, thank you.
There is no need at this hour for anything from IRS, and we have a couple sources over there that I can go, I don't have to fool around with the only lawyers or anybody we can get right in and get what we need.
I've been preparing the answers for the briefing book, and I just raised it to Ron.
It's my estimation for what it's worth that
probably this week, will draw more war gate questions than any other week you're likely to see.
Given the gray hearings, the new revelations about, they're not new, but they're now substantiated about Kambach and Chapin and then the press.
That Chapin directed Kambach to pay Segretti, the alleged saboteur, somewhere between $35,000 and $40,000.
There's an awful lot
of that out in the press now.
There's also the question of Dean appearing, not appearing, Dean's role.
There were more stories in the Post this morning that are absolutely inaccurate about my attorney information over to the re-election committee for some woman over there, Mrs. Hoback, signed an affidavit, gave it to Birch Bayh, said that I was brought into Martians
Bob Martin's office within 48 hours after a private interview I had with a juror confronted with it.
How did they know that?
Well, it came from internal sources over there is how they knew it.
Internal sources just told others that she was doing this.
And they just quickly filled it to the top that she was out on her own.
We had two or three of those.
Why did she do that?
She's a registered Democrat.
Why would she do that?
To this day, I do not understand what she was doing, and she was working Sands' operation.
It wasn't a good move.
In fact, that was one of our problems, was the little pocket of women that worked for Maury Sands.
No doubt about it, that was a thing that could have sailed a lot smoother without that pack.
Not that they have anything that was devastating.
Well, now, in regard to the questions, I'm sure
But it would be my opinion, though, not to dodge it just because there are many questions.
Well, it's going to be, you're probably going to get more questions this week, and the tough questions.
And some of them don't have any answers.
For example, did Haldeman know that there was a Don Segretti out there?
That question is likely.
I don't know.
He had knowledge that there was somebody in the field doing prankster type activities.
I don't think this is the way to get into a city, no we're not.
I don't want to get in the business of taking each charge and come up with a comment on it.
being considered by an investigator.
I'm not going to comment on that.
That's exactly the way I've grasped the general answer.
I just cut them off.
No, I didn't draw them.
I started breaking down.
It's like on the court thing.
I'm not going to comment on all of these questions.
I'm not going to comment on that.
That's a matter for the committee to determine.
And I'll repeat the fact that I, as far as Watergate matter is concerned, I'm not going to comment on anything else that the committee might announce.
uh the bottom line on a draft before i threw it for lunch was so if you have nothing to hide here at the white house why aren't you willing to spread on the record everything you know about it why doesn't the dean report remain public why doesn't everyone come out why does zebra stand out there and bob and leave and no comment that's that's the bottom line well you we are we will i think well of course we have
We have cooperated with the FBI in the investigation of our case.
We will cooperate with the investigation of a proper investigation by the Senate.
We will make statements.
And indeed, we have nothing to hide over here.
We have nothing to hide.
So we don't think we have to handle it.
What else do you have?
You see, I can't be in the position of basically hunkering down because you've got a lot of tough questions on Watergate and not go out and talk about other issues because it's not going to get better.
It's going to get worse.
Do you agree?
Yes, I would agree.
I think it's siphoned somewhat.
I think that's a great thing.
It takes one course one way or the other.
There will be a dead period of news on Watergate until the urban hearings start again.
This has obviously sparked the news again.
that's correct that's specifically fell out in there
If this in favor of Mr. Parcher has something to do with his involvement, Mr. Gray?
I do not.
And what about Mr. Dean?
My position is the same.
We have been cooperating with the Justice Department, with the FBI, completely, in trying to impart some information.
We are all in on this matter.
We will cooperate with the committee.
The rules, they are not in my statement on executive permission.
Great.
How about us?
Well, then you'll get a variety of questions, probably, on will you supply?
Will Mr. Hallman, Mr. Ackman, Mr. Dean go up to the committee to testify?
No.
Absolutely not.
Mr. Colson?
No.
No.
I guess so.
No, absolutely not.
No, it is a good question, but the question is not the one that...
Or somebody would take it or somebody would say that, uh, I mean, we would use our exact same perfect statement.
We would not furnish information.
Oh, no.
You said we would furnish information, but we're not going to publicly testify.
That's the position.
But we'll lean on all the rest of the information.
You'll furnish information, won't you?
Yes, indeed, I will.
Yeah.
Sure.
Well, I think, possibly, if I'd have turned... That's what I would... My view, John, is that I'd better hit it now.
You're right.
I should pray for the sake of debate, because I was having reservations, and it is a bullet pattern.
You've just got to do it, because they're not going to go away, the questions.
Now, the other thing that we've talked about in the past, and I still have the same problem, is to have sort of a, well, here it all is approach.
If we do that, and let it all hang out, let's say with the segregation, we have to have that point, plus the fact they're not going to believe the truth.
That's the incredible thing.
That's right.
They will continually try to say there's .
That's right.
Well, the thing on Sullivan that I had, Sullivan
was I told you and had been prompting him.
I said, Bill, I would like for my own use to have a list of some of the horribles that you're aware of.
Well, he hasn't responded back, but he sent me a note yesterday saying that, John, I am willing at any time to testify to what I know if you want me to.
What he has, we already know, has got a certain degree of dynamite situation where he's got already the 68 bugging, the
Surveillance of Goldwater.
That's right.
But at least he will say that.
Yes.
I would think.
Well, I've never talked to Bill about this.
I must be, I've never really gone into detail because he's always been very up close about it.
But he is now getting the point that if we wanted him to do this, someone, and I don't think the White House should do it, should sit down with him and really
of what he does know and how strong he is that he can instantiate what he can.
Well, that's probably, there's no one.
That's the problem.
Now, the other thing is, if we were to use a tactic like this, let's say, in the gray hearings, where everything is counted, that we're the political people and they're not, that Hoover was above reproach, which is just not accurate.
Total bullshit.
The person who would destroy Hoover's image is going to be this man, Bill Sullivan.
That's what's at stake there.
Also, it's going to tarnish quite severely some of the FBI and a former president.
He's going to lay it out, and it's just all hell is going to break loose once he does it.
It's going to change the atmosphere of the Gray hearings.
It's going to change the whole atmosphere of the Watergate hearings.
at risk.
How will it change?
How will it change?
Because it will put them in context that a government instrument were used in the past for the most flagrant political purposes.
How does that help us?
How does that help us?
I appreciate what you're doing.
It's what the public already believes.
It's just that people would just, I would say, react that, oh, Christ, more of that stuff.
They're all, you know, they're all bad down there.
Because it's a one-way street.
Pardon?
It'd be difficult not to.
It'd be difficult not to.
Why are there so many people in the city?
I think the quid pro quo with Sullivan is that he wants Sunday back in the Bureau very badly.
That's easy.
That's right.
You'd rather he did this for the Bureau than they want him back, made through his day?
Probably not.
But I think that he could also possibly do what Bill Sullivan's desire in life is, is to set up a national or domestic national security intelligence
lost his guts several years ago.
If you recall, he and Tom Houston worked on it.
Tom Houston had your instruction to go out and do it, and the whole thing just crumbled.
That's all someone really wants, even if we just put him off studying it for a couple years.
We could put him out to the CIA or someplace else where he felt good.
I didn't think there'd be answers.
I've never really... No problem.
It's all real good.
I mean, he's a valuable man.
Now, with the FBI that turned on him, there's something.
There would be some effort.
That's right.
They would say he's disgruntled.
He was canned by Hoover.
He's angry.
He's coming back.
But I would think a lot of that would be lost in the shuffle of what he's laying out.
I don't know if he's given me his best yet.
I don't know if he's got more ammunition than the way he's already told me.
Those are just a couple off-the-cuff remarks.
That's what you said.
Why do you think he is now telling you this?
Why is he now?
Well, the way it came out is when I, when the time magazine I broke on the practice of the charge that the White House had directed the newsmen and White House staff people be subject to some sort of surveillance for national security reasons, I called in tracking down what had happened, I called some of the
And I said, Doug, you better come over and talk to me about that and tell me what you know.
I was calling him to really determine if he was a leak.
I was wondering, I was curious to know where this might have come from, because he was the operative man at the Bureau of the Con.
He's the one who did it.
He would not, you know, he came over, and he was shocked and distraught and like it, but in a sense, his own exes like to crack on him, frankly.
And then after going through his explanation of all of what had happened, he started volunteering to tell it.
And he said, John, this is the only thing I can think of during this administration that has any taint of political use.
But it doesn't really bother me, because it was a national security purpose.
These people were very sensitive material.
I was getting out to reporters.
You mean, what we ordered?
That's right.
Cars.
How many of your orders did you think were subject to involvement in the Vietnam War?
That's right.
That's what it was.
And he told me about going to Paris and working there.
He said, that doesn't bother me.
But he said, John, what does bother me is that you all have been portrayed as politically fusing.
We never did.
And we never have.
He said, the eyes in our administration didn't either.
The only matters that he can recall
that there's been a real political use has been during Democratic tenure.
And I said, for example, Bill, what are you talking about?
And he told me this example of Walter Jenkins, a fair one, Deloach, and now in force.
And I thought, I don't know that.
But it can't be used to say political .
That's right.
That was not a national security, was it?
No.
Now, I asked somebody about that.
They told me that what happened there is that they were being defensive of Kennedy.
And this isn't the person who would defend Kennedy, necessarily.
They're saying that Kennedy had given Hoover orders, and Hoover, being difficult in his response, tried to get it yesterday, as far as the answer for the president.
And that's why he sent people out in the middle of the night.
And the blame really fell on Hoover.
And this might be lower over there now.
Who knows?
Well, that's not so long.
Sure.
Could God do that in somebody's fuel company?
Or Ray tell about an automobile company about something, something that Carlos Alves does, and we send FBI agents out to him for that?
Jesus Christ.
Does he know about the buggy market of the chain?
Yep.
Why would he know that?
I think he would tell everything to the devs.
He would do?
That's why I'm saying he's a, he's a, he's a bomb.
Now, I really have to keep telling you this story.
Well, if, that's the, the real problem is how it's structured, how can it be done?
Uh, he sent me this note and I called up and I said, Bill, I appreciate getting that note very much.
I said, it takes a lot of guts to send a note like that to me.
And he said, I said, it's kind of a pleasure to see a man saying that boy will smoke up even the like and, uh,
He said, well, John, I'm perfectly willing to do anything you want.
You want me to go up and testify, I will.
I said, well, how about you just give me some tidbits that you, in a conversation, I'd really like to again repeat.
Can you put together what you do now, just for your own use right now, just put it together on a pad, go through all your recollections, and then also tell me how you can substantiate it.
and what kind of cross-examination he might be subject to if he did testify.
So he's doing that.
Now, the question I've had is, how in the world could we program something like this?
I just have a feeling that it would be bad for, one, Bill Sullivan to quietly appear up on some senator's doorstep and say, I've got some information you ought to have.
Well, why are you up here?
The White House sent me.
That would be bad.
The other thing is, maybe this information could be brought to the White House.
And the White House could say to the, to Eastland, I think you ought to call an executive session and hear this testimony.
This is quite troublesome, the information that's been presented to us.
It's so troublesome we can't hold it here and hope to, and rest comfortable.
Why didn't, why didn't the issue be presented to Eastland?
Why didn't they have a discussion?
Well, one, because you're trying to
The first approach would be not to destroy fear, not to tarnish the name.
It's going to leak out of it, quite obviously, if it does, we'd make sure it did.
If, if, uh, Solomon went out to eat some coal, and it said, or harassed it, I would think they would say, going back down to the
Department of Justice for your work, and let's not start all this.
Who is the prior?
Ernie.
Ernie has been good.
Ernie was good during the IPP here, and there's no study.
He'll get prepared.
Uh, but would he go back to the Bureau?
I don't know.
According to the Bureau, what they're doing is they're taking the testimony of somebody who is going after the Bureau.
Yeah, I don't know.
I'm just thinking about that.
Yeah.
They'll look down the road and see what the result of what they're doing is, won't they?
I would think so.
I would.
Go ahead, Mr. Johnson.
Let's look at the future and learn how bad it's hurt the country beyond the FBI.
I take this around a bit more in these broader questions.
And I think it would be damaging to the FBI.
But maybe it's time to shake the FBI and rebuild it.
I'm not so sure if the FBI or anything is a crack up to the FBI.
I'm convinced the FBI is anything.
The public thinks it is.
I know quite well that... You've got to get Jerry Wilson on there rather than bulletin one by two.
What is your opinion at the moment about the grade?
Can I hand you that?
Should I...
I don't know.
I haven't followed those.
I don't know.
They're going to go to spam and take a session this afternoon to invite me to test stuff.
There's no question I can invite them.
I would say, based on how I handle the one, the form of the letter that comes out of the committee asking for information, and I program that they do get specific.
If what in the hell do they want to know that I've got and lay it out in the letter and it's sent down here asking me to appear so I can be responsive and fully respond to the letter.
Respond to the letter in full.
I think I have to argue I have nothing to hide as far as the issues I have with...
Respond early.
I know what you want to do, yes.
That's what I was going to say.
That's what I'm preparing in the press thing.
I said we'll respond on your own.
You will not appear in the formal session.
That's our preference.
You will not be questioned on your own.
That's not what the question is.
Yes, I'd be willing to be questioned on it, but we're not doing that.
No, no, but he did.
Oh.
I think that would be a hell of a bad precedent.
Okay.
I just want to be sure that we don't cross that bridge.
I agree.
If you respond to it, then right.
That's right.
That's it.
Okay.
Now, after that, if we've been responsive, there are arguments for holding up grades based on me, and it should be done.
I'm sure they're going to say it raises more questions than it answers, but it works.
But that could go on forever.
We've taken the central points that they want answers to, given them the responses.
That puts something in Eastland's hand that can say, all right, let's sign a vote.
And Eastland says he's got the votes to get Gray through.
Now, what happens on the Senate floor or something else?
Because Byrd is opposing Gray.
Byrd's got that controlled by Southern law.
I'm sure of it.
No.
Berger ran for leader the whole time.
I don't think he was very honest.
I've met him, though, and I had him, of course, come out and say that he initially supported Greg's confirmation.
My feeling is that they were talking to Greg.
Despite that, I think they'd like to have an excuse not to do it.
Maybe they'll use not you, but...
Well, if they say that they have to hold up Gray's confirmation until the war gate drains are complete, that's great.
That's the vehicle.
That's right.
Gray...
And I think we should not be there yet.
We are not doing any character or thoughts or intelligence thoughts.
Because it's going to be too much like claims.
All the hearing will not be in the direction as far as we're concerned.
I think that's probably true.
He'll be a very suspect director.
Not that I don't think Pat will do what we want.
I read him a little differently than Dick in that regard.
But he's still keeping close touch with me.
He's calling me.
He's giving me his private line.
We talk at night.
How do you want me to handle this?
So on and so forth.
So he's still playing it plain and tight and still being involved.
But I think he can't do it.
He's going to be under such surveillance by his own people of what every movie is making.
That would be the best thing for Pat, not that Pat would want to still play ball, that he may not be able to.
So Pat has already gotten into a self-insulting situation where he's got this Mark Feld as his number two man because other people are surrounding him.
He put a guy, Jerry Wilson, in there.
He just wiped this.
He said, no, I'm putting my own team in.
I'm going to bring people in.
I haven't met around the country that are good office directors, facts out of Chicago, whatever.
He just put his own team together for the headquarters office.
The great argument locked in is that major personnel decisions.
I wouldn't be surprised to see that occur, that they say that they cannot go forward with a great hearing because of what they can confirm.
Could happen.
Some of these were done first in the...
in a committee, in addition to a committee.
The question is then whether it will be put on the calendar by the leadership.
I assume that's the leadership.
The leadership might determine that we will operate on the law and go back to law.
That's right.
And we will then pray and say, I will not wait that long.
Gentlemen, you're just damaging the leadership of the FBI, and I would have to withdraw based on this.
But it would be nice for all of you to get a great vote out of the committee.
with a positive vote, not to get him out of committee, and then locked in that limbo there.
But it's more of a judgment about the sample than it's about.
Yeah.
He said that Pete's done it, Mike.
He said it depends, and we would both agree, that the way it would be done would be a secret, what it was done.
We could just leap out and do.
It would have to be very carefully thought through.
It would have to be decided then should the White House
not be involved, or should we be involved?
If we're going to play with it, we're going to probably have to say that we're involved and structure it in a way that there's nothing improper with our involvement.
Difficult in my understanding of involvement is that we're involved in this thing, John.
That's right.
That's why I believe you ought to be here.
You need this.
I suppose the answer is the same, to have him, to say that you've got, you know, this is something, you've intimated a few things to me,
uh, the proper place to take that information is to the Senate Judiciary Committee.
Or to the Attorney General, possibly.
They have to take that to me.
Or is that too close to the President, so... First of all, if he takes it to the committee, it's better for the committee to connect to the hearing.
He's involved.
Hey, thanks for calling me.
I was going to say, Bill, just don't do it because you're going to take Deloach's name down with it.
Deloach is a friend of ours.
Oh, sure.
Something I've always liked about you.
I don't want to be a friend of ours.
Let's fix it.
Don't worry about it, sir.
Well, that's something I will, I think I can get a tip of the cane around a bit more.
Yeah.
But the first time I left it, it just actually went through every inch of the way.
It came in late this afternoon.
Sure.
Bob said, when I talked to him, he said he was quite excited about it.
I said, well, I'm not going to rush anything on this.
We've got a little bottom here that we might want to drop at one point down the road.
Maybe the formability is something totally out of the committee's context between the very confirmation hearings and the Watergate hearings.
Maybe letting go of the U.S. News or who knows what it would be, but we ought to consider every option.
Now that we've got it, let's see if we have anything to do with the hearing.
Jimmy, press.
And that will force the hearing to call it.
That's another way to do it, is to have you, if you like, to get an interview.
And I would go to any of my schools, and I'm doing it.
We would not do it to any of the wires in this college.
And I respect the standard of order.
Why not do it?
Jack, that's why you're all out.
I used to question.
Well, I think that, you know, Mullenhoff is close to, I don't think you can program Mullenhoff to any home.
And it's better.
You know, and also over there in the village where Mullenhoff has been fighting for some time, maybe, maybe Mullenhoff could be a pretty good prospect for this area.
It's kind of a story he loves.
He lives on the side.
We couldn't talk over, uh,
Or can you call Clark and say, can I call Clark and say, listen, Clark, the guy taught me a piece of dynamite I don't even want in the White House.
Because that's what bike paths are set up here.
You know, Park Road, this is the first guy to ever come up to me with anything.
He'll say, no way.
But he's going to do it.
That's how you're going to do it.
Brides are sold.
Getting to the bottom of that, don't you feel that that's the need here?
It's a broad scope of that.
Focus is right on us.
That's the problem.
Yeah.
Nothing on the Democrats.
Nothing.
Nothing on the Green Street administration.
Nothing.
It's making... Of course, it's still a Washington story.
You know, I'm just saying, I can't find anybody that even knows what's happening.
Oh, it's increased, and the network covered that NBC thing last night, which is just a travesty as far as...
the very thing Ron was talking about, about shabby journalism, they took the worst edited clips they could out of context to respond to things they were saying to me, and they would have a little clip of Ron saying, well, I deny that, and he was denying something totally other than what they were talking about in their charge.
It was incredible.
Someone's going through and putting that all together right now, and Ron ought to be able to have a field day back with that on NBC.
It was just very, very, very
dishonest television authority a sequence of events without a sequence well you see john because it makes us wonder about our first series
Well, or he did not.
Who knows?
That's right.
If he didn't send it up, why didn't he send it up?
Because he was...
I know, but that's one day.
That's true.
That's one day.
He sent somebody else one second one.
He's not feeling so well.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
I don't think he did not send it up.
Oh, he didn't want to send it up.
I think the problem is the reason the center's not there, but there's a reason we go and go and see, well, I'm just going to hang out there and order events before I better get through.
Well, then, you know, one thing is that the saturation level of American people in this story is pretty close.
The saturation level in this city is getting pretty high now, and we can't take too much away of this enough.
Amen.
There's nothing really new that's coming out.
And some kid, they said, I don't think that anybody, incidentally, will care about somebody in the military in the peace movement.
There was a demonstration against the president the day after the war.
Do you think so?
No.
Anybody will care about them.
Why would this Texas guy take his money back?
All hell broke loose for him after it.
This is Alan.
No, no, no.
Alan.
Alan, not Duncan.
Duncan.
Duncan had some.
All hell broke loose for Alan for this reason.
The money apparently originally came out of a subsidiary of one of Alan's corporations down in Mexico.
It went to a lawyer in Mexico who put it down as a fee
A Mexican lawyer sent it back into the States, and it came back up here.
But the weakness of it is that the Mexican lawyer, one, didn't have a legitimate fee.
Two, it could be corporate contribution.
So Alan had personally put a note up with the corporation to cover it.
Alan is, meanwhile, having problems with his wife, and divorce is pending, and tax problems.
So he wanted to do that.
I don't know why that went in the letter.
It wasn't used for the water game.
That's the interesting thing.
No, it was not.
What happened is these Mexican checks came in.
They were given to Gordon Liddy and said, why don't you get these cash?
Gordon Liddy in turn took them down to this fellow Parker in Florida and said, if you cash these Mexican checks,
uh and so i thought i went through barker's bank account back in here i could have been just as easily cashed a rigged bank there was just nothing wrong with the checks why all that rigmarole it's just like a lot of other things happened over there god knows why it was all done it was totally unnecessary and it was money that was not directly involved in the watergate it wasn't a wash operation to to get money back in to lady and the like who's going to be the worst
But out of doubt, he's scared.
He's weak.
He has a compulsion to find his soul by confession.
Now, we're giving him a lot of stroking.
And I am going to be able to go up there.
Funny thing is, the fellow goes down to the courthouse here before Sirica, testifies as honestly as he can testify.
And Sirica looks around and calls him a liar.
Kambach has been dealing with some restless, needy job, and Kambach has done a lot of that.
The person that they'll have the greatest problem with in all of his testimony is Kambach's son, so they're working closely with him to make sure he's satisfied.
Kambach is born up very well.
In fact, I've decided he's amazing.
Kambach, of course.
He's sensitive on that point.
He saw a briefing.
He saw a transcript of a briefing where Ron was saying, well, we've really got at the time the right nomenclature.
His personal attorney heard, said, well, gee whiz, I don't know if Ron knows, but all I do, and I said that.
Don't worry about it.
I don't care about it, but I mean, it's just the fact that it's played that way as a reason that I didn't talk to them about it.
I know that.
I don't talk to them about it.
I mean, I don't know.
I see her once a year, and we're seeing it every year.
That's right.
I'm sure we need to handle it.
There's not going to be any robbery and all the rest of it.
This is a lawyer's sense.
Most people have a lawyer.
No.
No.
I don't believe in any mistake that he does, you know, dovetailing on it.
We don't want to back off with him.
No.
He's solid.
He's solid.
How does he tell the story?
He's got a pretty hard road.
Pretty good.
He's going over it.
Herb is the kind of guy who will check not once, not twice on his story, not three times, but probably 50 to 100 times, literally.
He will go over it.
He will know it.
There won't be a hole in it.
He'll do his own Q&A.
He'll have people cross his hand in ten ways.
He will be ready, as John Mitchell will be ready, as Maury Sands will be ready.
His phone will be the worst witness.
I think a hoover will be a good witness.
A park porter will be a good witness.
They've already been through it.
They've been through grand juries.
They've been through trial.
They did well.
And then, of course, people around here, they won't be witnesses.
They won't be witnesses.
They won't be witnesses.
They won't appreciate us.
That's got to be a lie.
Which I think we've got to get across.
It's either no or free.
We will bring information.
That is not the question.
It is how it's being permitted.
And we will not permit it in a formal session.
That would be a very valid order.
Period.
I agree.
I agree.
I've always thought that's the bottom line.
And I think that's the good thing about what's happening in the gray hearings right now.
If they send a letter down with specific questions, I send back written interrogatories sworn.
You know, as a lawyer,
You can handle an interrogator for a cross-examination at another ballgame.
You can make a person look like they're inaccurate, even if they're trying to tell the truth.
Well, not really.
You can't do that.
You know, I don't know.
Or face-checking.
Correct.
Correct.
Correct interrogation.
And be ardently, absolutely
Enter the full information.
Well, what about the sentence?
When the hell was he going to sentence?
We thought he was going to sentence last Friday.
No one knows what in the world Sirica is doing.
It's getting to be a long time now.
Frankly, it is.
And no one really has a good estimation of how he will sentence.
There's some feeling that he will sentence Liddy the heaviest.
Liddy's already in jail.
He's in Danbury.
He wants to start serving so he can get a good time going.
But Hunt, he'll probably be very fair with.
Pardon?
Why?
He likes Hunt.
He likes Hunt.
He thought Hunt was being open with him and candid.
Hunt gave a statement.
I was recording.
He didn't know of any higher-ups involved.
And...
Hunting went through the rigors of trial.
Hunt was a beaten man and lost his wife.
Still, they tried to move and have him severed from the trial.
And Hunt didn't cause a lot of problems.
Bittman was cooperative.
Whereas, Liddy played a heavy in the trial.
His lawyer didn't raise all the objections in the life and embarrassed the judge for some in chambers saying what he said.
But Liddy's got appeals.
made his own appeal and decision, the trial, appeal, appeal, appeal, and trial.
And there is an outside chance that this man has gone, has done so far in his zeal to be a special witness.
Incredible.
You mean incredible.
How many unwitnesses testimony before the jury?
That's incredible.
Incredible.
So he may have been in this trial.
I don't .
I don't know.
What about Cubans?
Cubans will probably be thought of as higher hands, and no one here had the sentences of the lady, I would think.
Not all of them.
Parker, the least Cuban, may get more than the others.
It's hard to say.
I just don't have any ideas.
So Rick is a strange man.
He's known as a handy judge.
That's right.
That's right.
He stopped.
He stopped.
Now, the other thing, Sirica, there was some indication that Sirica might be playing together a panel.
And the system down there now, based on this informal agreement where a judge, a sentencing judge, convenes a panel of his own to take advice from him.
If Sirica were being shrewd, he just might get himself a panel and take their recommendations.
When will the current thing be in the fan most?
I don't know.
Well, I would say that the best indications we have now is public hearings will probably start about the 1st of May.
Now, they will, you know, that would be a big, probably bang that's of interest initially.
We have no idea how they'll proceed yet.
We do have sources to find that out other than Baker.
It's not a cleanliness list.
We had called Urban again.
turn the call, Kervin is going to see him this week with Baker.
That's public hearings the first of May.
I'm not really sure.
The public hearings, I don't think, though, I know the experience of my guests at the time.
I think they can get through about three weeks of those, and I think it's going to be around somewhere, I don't know.
When I told Bob several months ago, I hope they don't think about this, he said the way they could have those hearings and do a magical job on this is to hold one hearing a week on Thursdays, Thursday mornings.
They'd cover it live.
That way you'd get live coverage that day, you'd get the network that night, the national magazines that week, the weekend wrap-ups.
Can you stretch this thing out for a minute?
I don't think they're that perceptive.
Well, this is a, I mean, I know some of the conservative candidates, viewing the alarm, which is a great crisis in the conference, but I think it's a great crisis.
very well.
For the best way of knowledge,
Pardon?
How much of a crisis?
I mean, it'll be, it'll be, I'm just, you're talking about the point is that everything is a crisis.
So you're going to screw around with this thing for a while.
It's a, it's a, it's a, it'll be a crisis among the upper intellectual types, the assholes, you know, that we've sought to, sought our own to the Republicans, Democrats, and the Reds.
Well, I think after the urban hearings, they're going to find so much, there'll be some new revelations.
I don't think the thing will get out of hand.
I have no reason to believe it will.
They want to find out who... Is there a higher up?
Is there a higher up?
They're really, let's face it, after...
I think they're really after...
I mean, Colson...
It's not a big enough name for your kids to guard on their side, but they're close enough to the name of their father, so they get close enough.
They're after all of the name of their father.
Don't you think so?
Right.
Or they think they're looking to take a dragon in, but they're not able to drag him in.
Holden's problem is chasteness.
Father's problem is circumstantial.
what i mean is looking at the circumstances i don't know that i didn't come with all that nothing didn't know any of those people like the hunts and all that but uh bob bob didn't want to change that's right now what um however the hell much jacob oh we got that right on well chippy didn't know anything about the watergate and i think so no absolutely not strong yes
You probably know Bob.
He may not.
He was good at what he relayed.
But John is as tough as nails.
Well, at least let me just go ahead and say it.
I don't know anything about what you're talking about.
He's already done it twice in interviews.
I guess he should.
Why?
Well, we can't call that a justice account.
We can't call that a claim.
Well, it's a personal liability to him.
He doesn't want to handle it that way.
He didn't have to be told.
He didn't have to be asked.
It's just something that he found is the way he wanted to handle the situation.
What did he do?
He didn't know why he was driving.
Well, that's the problem with Bob's case.
It's not changed.
Strong.
Strong work for him.
They would have one hell of a time proving that strong had knowledge of the system.
Well, Bruder.
The Bruder lady.
Ah, I see.
The other weak link for Bob is Bruder too.
He had an irony and so forth.
What do you see Colson doing?
Do you think he can do quite a bit?
And yet he can know a great deal about a lot of other things.
And now they have a lot about this.
I don't know.
Well, I've never...
He sure as hell knows a lot about that.
He had no knowledge.
specific knowledge of the Watergate incident before it occurred.
There have been tidbits that I've raised with Chuck, I've not played any games, and I said, Chuck, I haven't played any games.
I don't know.
That's right.
And I said, Chuck, people have said that you were involved in this, involved in that, involved in this, and that's not true, and so on and so forth.
I don't.
I think that Chuck had knowledge
Something was going on over there.
A lot of people were in there.
Something was going on over there.
They didn't have any knowledge of the details of the specifics of the whole thing.
You know, it must be an indication, though, of the fact that they had the content for victims.
Because, actually, anybody, either Chuck or Bob, because it's always important to me that I was there,
If they ever got any information, they would have certainly told me that we had some information.
But, they never got any.
I didn't make a report.
What was the matter?
Did they never get anything out of that thing?
I don't think they ever got anything.
It was a dry hole.
That's right.
Jesus Christ.
I don't think they were just really getting started.
I don't think they were.
Yeah.
All right.
Bob, what time is this?
Think about it.
In fact, we've got some questions about this or that.
I think it was about the convention that they were planning.
So I assume that must have been McGrady.
I mean, not McGrady, but Segretti.
No.
I also don't know about Segretti.
Well, Segretti really wasn't involved in intelligence gathering.
No, he wasn't.
No, he wasn't.
He was out there.
That was Liddy and his outfit.
A partner of mine.
Well, that's right.
That was part of their whole, Watergate was part of the intelligence gathering.
What happened is a... That was incredible.
That's right.
I don't think he knew it was there.
Kidding.
I don't think Mitchell knew about this.
Oh, no, no, no.
I don't think he knew that people, I think he knew that Libby was out to intelligence gatherings.
I don't think he knew that Libby would use a fellow like McCord, for God's sake, who worked for the committee.
I can't believe that.
I don't think he knew about that either.
So Mitchell's saying it's the public fire.
He says, you and I hired this felon.
I put him down to talk to him, but I made him.
I heard that.
That's right.
Gruder says the same thing.
You know, Gruder says that if he didn't file, he said, well, of course, my name has been dragged in as the guy who sent Lydia over there, which is an interesting thing.
That's right.
They said, well, what happened is Gruder asked the lawyer.
He wanted to fire my deputy over there for general counsel.
I can't give you that.
No, but he never worked for me.
And this fellow, Fred Thieling, works for me.
And I said, I can't give him up.
He said, find me a lawyer.
I said, I'll be happy to look around.
I checked around the White House.
Probe said, Liddy might be the man to do it.
He said, well, he's a hell of a good lawyer.
He's written some wonderful legal opinions over here for me.
I'm a good lawyer.
So I relate to him a little bit.
He's a strange man, Mr. President.
Strange and strong.
Strange and strong.
His loyalty, I think, is beyond a pale.
He's just nothing.
He's the other side.
Oh, absolutely.
He's strong.
He really is.
What about the hangout?
And we go over.
I don't need to take the briefcase.
Is it too late to go to Hangout Road?
Yes, it is.
I hear it's the Hangout Road.
The Hangout Road is going to be rejected by somebody.
I understand that.
It was kicked around Bob and I, and... Well, I think I convinced him why he wouldn't want to hang out either.
There's a certain domino situation here.
If some things start going, a lot of other things don't start going.
And then we have a lot of problems if everything starts falling apart.
So there are dangers, Mr. President.
I'd be less inclined if I didn't tell you those things there are.
There's a reason for us not everyone going up and testifying.
Hold on.
Hold on.
They would never believe it.
That's the point.
The two things they're working on, on Watergate, who is they?
The press, the press, the diagrams, the intellectuals.
They would never buy as far as one White House involved in Watergate, which I think there is just none for that incident.
which did not know that that was going to be done.
There were some people who saw the proofs of it.
But that's another story.
I'm talking about the criminal conspiracy to go in there.
The other thing is that the Segretti thing, if you hang that out, they wouldn't believe that.
They wouldn't believe that Chapin acted on his own to put his old friend, Kit Segretti, in to be a dick-tucker.
on somebody else's campaign.
They would have to paint it as something more sinister, something more involved, a part of a general plan.
It's quite humorous, this kind of fact.
It's the last gasp of, you know, of the partisan policies that got us on the squeal line.
The only thing they have is the squeal line.
The squeal line, they have a grant simulation that that will handle.
The point that they're going to squeal is that they're having a little time, you know, they're going to have to help get done with the election.
They're going to watergate around this town.
And that's why I keep coming back to this problem and to change the picture.
I wouldn't change, you know, by saying you're another senator.
But here's another.
And it happens to be Democrats.
You're, uh, I, you know, I just, I just wish.
Well, let me tell you something that lurks at the bottom of this whole thing.
You've been going after Segrate, I mean, Segrate, right?
They go after Combox Banquets.
You'll recall that
Sometime back, maybe you know about this, but right after Chappaquiddick, somebody was put up there to start observing.
Within six hours, that man walked up.
He was there for every second of Chappaquiddick for a year and almost two years.
He worked for Jack Paulfield.
originally, and then he worked for, and Caulfield worked for John, and when I came over, I inherited Caulfield, and so I would see a lot of the same thing.
Well, they get to those bank records between, they start on July of 69 through June of 71, and they say, what are these about?
Who is this fellow that's up in New York that you paid?
There comes Chappaquiddick with a vengeance.
This guy is a 20-year detective on the New York
He is ready to disprove and to show that everything from crime... What if they get to him?
It's going to come out and the whole thing is going to turn around on them.
I guess Kennedy knew that Bear Caffey was walking in.
How do we know?
By when did he get it out anyway?
Well, so it's safe.
Does he have any record?
Is there anything good?
Uh...
He is probably the most knowledgeable man in the country.
He can't, you know, there's certain things he runs up against walls when they close the, when they close the records down, things he can't get, but he can ask all of the questions and give so many the answers as a, as a 20-year detective.
But we don't want to surface him right now, but if they ever surface, this is what they'll get.
How explain he hired us?
Because he said the Duke had time ..
He had money left over from pre-convention.
Were they going to investigate those funds, too?
They're funds that were quite legal.
There's nothing illegal with those funds.
They can't.
What would occur, you see, is they would stumble into this, and going back
on Combox bank records.
They've already asked for a lot of his bank records in connection with Segretti as to how he paid Segretti.
Well, this fellow worked in the 71 on this.
He was up there.
He talked to everybody in that town.
He's the one who caused a lot of embarrassment for Kennedy already by saying he went up there as a newspaper man.
So why aren't you checking this?
Why aren't you looking there and pointing the press's attention to things?
The guy did a magical job I've never been
And the whole report.
I'll see if we have something that's viable.
And if it's... Oh, yes.
Yes, I plan to.
I asked him last night, he said, come give me a day or so to get all my recollections together.
That was yesterday, so I thought I would call him this evening and say, Bill, I'd just like to know— See, I have a few thoughts that won't be coming out.
So maybe, maybe the best thing is to say, all right, turn it here.
He said, he's turned this over.
He said, we will not handle it.
Well that's what I think I can pick around and pick more and I do very well with bouncing these things back and forth and coming up with something that we don't have to be embarrassed about.
I mean, a real bust in the FBI.
And then the committee member, the man, you do, for example, unless they used to call her and say, now look, we're on something very hot here.
I can just tell you, I'm going to tell you even more.
Go after it.
Forget you ever had this call.
And he goes, it seems to me that that's
The other thing is, I don't think Sullivan would give up the White House.
If I had one liability in Sullivan here, it's after his knowledge of these earlier things that occurred.
We did.
Yeah, we did.
Yeah.
Well, he made a win.
He saved it.
He saved it.
I didn't know the political work at all.
My work in the administration was solely in the national security.
That's right.
And that is totally true.
That's right.
Good luck.
All right, sir.