Conversation 880-014

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How are you?

Nice to see you.

Yes.

How are you?

Nice to meet you.

Yes.

Hey, John, stop.

Oh, that kid, John, with his kiss over there.

Give him a kiss.

We're going to get you a couple of little pictures.

We're going to come over here once while you're gone.

The kids will all stand in front of us.

There you are.

Now, wait a minute.

Thank you.

Well, I can just go to Kansas because they do that.

I'm going to get the medical fee.

Okay.

Well, there are a couple other things.

I don't know.

He doesn't have to go into possession.

And I really feel that the best things for them is to give them the insurance.

After all, you just got to give them to a few other people.

That's natural confidence.

Okay, I just think, I think, I don't know who started the idea of Bill Marion.

He was going to work on it, but he picked up the cost by himself.

I think it's a combination of hands.

Somebody has this idea of taking the bracelets and making them start to number, but I don't know.

Yeah, that's right.

But we'll still get quite a few of those hands.

But the hands you have to use for other people, they'll love to get them.

but those are the best I've seen.

Yeah, those are fine.

Let me just think, though.

You could have one with an eagle on it.

You mean you'd make one with an eagle?

Well, the eagle plant that they brought in was a sample, yes.

Or we had one other little one, and I'll show you one more time, of an eagle sort of not sitting still.

Yeah, they're just about to land.

But I'll show you some of it.

That one, the rest of it was done.

The only thing I had to get back to was Bill Marion, because if they were going to do those, they'd go into production, and they're not going to have a problem.

Oh, I see.

And the Eagle Black King.

Well, he wanted to know if it was possible.

The other, the men thing, they were the ones that were ready to schedule it instead of wrestling them through it.

Okay.

Well, let's go across over here.

Okay.

Thank you.

What are you going to do for your country now?

Well, I was asking this the other night.

Have you ever played the coin?

Well, I'm going to go on for the country.

I'd like to say that if you go to get an ambassador, he said no.

So that doesn't mean I don't want to go out into my country.

I know that I'm prepared to do some service, but I'd like to talk to you about a couple of things.

First of all, I talked a little bit about my participation in some of the ongoing activities for the Jewish indigenous.

I assume you want me to continue.

Sure, sure.

Absolutely.

Because the problems will be coming up dealing with the Middle East and always keeping me fully informed.

I assume you want me to be fully informed.

Sure, sure.

Absolutely.

And on the Soviet Jewry thing, one of my most favorite nation things I see is

Thank you.

Let me go back.

Before we went to China.

said that he thought we should condition our trip to China on whether they would agree to release Tony.

I said, fine, I want a trip.

Coffee, tea, ice tea, ice tea, ice tea, ice tea, excellent plan.

I said, fine.

I explained that, what they said about you, but if you tell them that

I said, if we don't go to China, you'll see that it all freezes over.

Now, we placed no conditions.

We went.

And because better relations occurred between the United States and China, now it is free.

Otherwise, hell would have frozen over before we had gotten out.

No way.

Now, those who are trying to put a rider on the MFN are doing the greatest disservice to the Jews.

that they could possibly do.

They're doing a great disservice to better relations between the U.S. and the Soviet Union.

And we'll have to say that if they go on, because it'll torpedo them for some.

And they're doing an enormous disservice to the cause of peace.

Now, the main culprits here are the American Jews, because, you know, and the usual congressmen and senators like others who are trying to pander to them.

The point is this.

40,000 Jews got an exit clearance last year.

That was no accident.

We can't say, I would deny it if I said I had talked about it and so forth, but how do you think it happened?

Because we have relations with the Soviet.

If the United States at this time, because of a riot that was put on MFN, then cannot go forward with what the Soviets consider enormously important, these economic initiatives.

And there's going to be anybody else that will ever be able to get the Soviet to pay any attention to the flight of the Soviet Jews.

If, on the other hand, we continue with our relationship, then we can continue to use our influence to get around.

So they can make their choice.

They can demagoguize.

And they can all vote for it.

And the American Jewish community can say, look what we did.

Ha-ha.

We put those goddamn communists in their place.

And the people will suffer.

We were so confused.

Now, that's what they need to hear.

And somebody's got to tell them that.

Now, I know all the other arguments.

I know the other arguments as well.

The point is, well, they want something from us, and in order to get something from us, we ought to insist on something for them.

We're going to get something for them.

And that you cannot put it to them that way.

I know how to deal with these people.

I've had more success with them than most others.

And this is a terrible mistake.

And the other thing is, in the end, it will hurt the Jewish community in this country.

Because this country, whether right or wrong, this country, whether right or wrong, wants to have progress toward a more peaceful world.

This country, whether right or wrong, believes, and I believe this right now, you can't have

Now, if the issue of Soviet Jewry torpedoes the initiative toward arms limitation, if it doesn't, at first it would be a reaction.

We told those comments.

But then they'll say, who's to blame?

Don't let it happen.

Now, if I ask you one day, and I'm going to say it exactly,

Because there's no use for us to fool ourselves.

There's no use to lead the Jewish community down the garden.

But I don't get them out of there.

We are getting them out.

Hell, they wouldn't have got those visas unless we had put it to them, and we did.

But we cannot say so.

And we can't get up and, you know, jump up and down and so forth.

I remember when I went to New York with him, you know, I'm going to motivate his big speech.

Well, I didn't.

I'm not used to trying to tell him, you know, Rabbi Shatner.

I'm used to trying to tell him, look here, you're going to make yourself a big hero and say, look, I'm going to be proud of you for what you have done.

And I'll pound the table and I'll raise hell.

That's just the way to get nothing out of them.

Other times you have to be tough.

But on that issue, you see, to them, it's an internal matter.

As far as we're concerned, it's a humanitarian matter.

And we are insisting, we're going to say, look, the way we talk to them, say, look, you want good relations with us.

There are just an awful lot of people in this country that don't like the way you're handling the jewelry problem.

And it says, and it smacks of, this is, it's very elegant, because they get it ready to say this, and it smacks of what happened in Germany.

And they don't like that at all.

But you see, if you make that point, but to try to attach a rider, if there's a rider attached, and MFN goes down, over 700,000 for that, no way.

They're not going to say they're not, they won't even accept, for example,

They will not accept, like, an economic...

They are tied there, hung up on the idea there must be no link between economic progress and Vietnam.

There can be no link between economic progress and, for example, the arms limitation.

Well, there is no link.

Everything is linked.

But if you say the Soviets, with their paranoia and their jingoistic pride...

If they, if they, or if they haven't put it to the Congress of the United States, I can say we approve FMN.

Provide.

So the jury gets better people.

It's done.

And it's responsibility.

you understand it, but you see, how we get it across, I don't know, Rabin understands it completely, and Mrs. Myers, she said, you know, Mr. President, I make these speeches, I understand that, but I said, you must not get yourselves in a position where that issue destroys America's and the world's almost panting desire for peace.

And I get back to the China thing.

How in the hell do you think we got down the aisle?

And the other two flyers.

We could have gotten them out of there if we weren't talking to them.

And we would have been talking to them if we had said, look, we aren't going to come to China unless you agree to get down the aisle.

To lose time.

But we got up.

Now, I think we're going to make great progress if we can do everything for a fundamental reason.

The Russians are trying to get respectable in the world.

They don't like what's happening.

That's what you do, is to heat them up with a PR program, but do not attach a condition which means that the government of the United States then, because there'll be no more trade with Russia unless we get out of there.

No, it doesn't.

So that's the way they play the game.

They're ruthless and terribly, terribly, terribly, I'll not be mistaken,

And so you see, we're in the next thing.

I couldn't have more feeling about it.

Listen, I heard all the horrible things that were going to make me take a sane man and put him in a room in an insane asylum for a year or twelve insane people.

You know, that sort of thing.

Horrible things.

They're going to worship the Nazis.

The Nazis will be just killing people.

And I guess I feel very strongly, but I haven't got any answer except this.

Don't weaken America's voice in Moscow.

And if you, and I say you, if those who want to do something about Soviet Jewry attach a silly rider, our voice will be a whisper in Moscow.

They'll say, go to hell.

Mr. President, Max has raised some questions along the way here.

Max has been very, very helpful.

He's been very helpful in his call.

He's online.

Bill Rogers raised the question, how do we go at this, and was suggesting the possibility of a meeting with some of the leaders who have been helpful.

If the leadership had come from somebody like Max, it's infinitely better to become somebody like, let's say, Jason Kissinger.

Kissinger made a powerful argument because he said, look, he says, I'm Jewish.

But I would rather not have it become a Jewish, frankly, anti-Jewish battle.

I don't think it will come in.

Look, you've got the votes.

I say you have.

The votes for that writer are there.

Because there are no damn running votes in the Congress.

Right?

But there are a lot of peaceful votes in Congress.

Congress has mixed emotions about it.

But they'll vote for it because they'll realize.

that they will catch on certain health if the Jewish community in this country is united on it.

And I, it's a tough one, it's a tough one.

But you see, Max, everything hangs on it.

We're going to the very important part of the meditation talk with the Russians.

I don't know if they work or not, but whatever we get to know, if you have any questions.

And I saw it on the comment after all.

And I go clear back with his case.

It's very popular to be against.

Let me say this.

Don't you see?

So you've been reasonable through the years, and you've helped us out of a hell of a lot of holes.

And this is a promise.

Because they've already got 80 names on it.

Well, they're all open in the Senate.

And 270 in the House.

More than that.

Oh, absolutely.

Well, I think they can be peeled off.

It takes some time.

We spoke to Henry briefly before coming in here.

And he indicated that, and it is right that he stay out of this, but that we try to do it politely and formally, one-on-one, peel off the leadership, have them understand the implications, and maybe make some progress in the next few weeks.

I know the leadership of the Jewish community that I've had to deal with, and I'm part of it myself, so I know this.

The only thing I can do now...

I know if I would say call a whole group, I would get it.

So I have to deal with this.

I have to deal with this.

Thank you.

is the only voice the Russians will pay attention to.

They don't give a damn about the French and the British and the rest.

Only America.

Right.

I haven't talked to him.

I'll talk to the Russian if he's here.

I don't want you to ever say that.

In fact, you can't say it because he'd have to deny it, but we don't.

And he would probably make a pretty nice announcement.

That's my guess.

But you see, you see, if your voice, but if the Congress lays it out, then it covers the Russian public opinion.

They'll say, I don't know what they'll say.

So, see, that's what they'll say.

But if we've got a few things going on, supposedly, Max, you know what, supposedly we've got the gas field going on.

Thank you.

If I were in that position, I don't say that I'd like to get any money out of there.

I could if I cared about it.

I'd like to get them out, and we've got to have places for them to go.

And it all came out of Israel, either, because they've been ruined.

And so we have no problem trying to secure everything.

No, we have the parole waiver.

I want to be sure that's it.

Yes, that's it.

Well, you get many smart people in this country.

Absolutely.

The Russians don't want to let the small ones out.

They let out the working steps, but they don't let out the intellectuals.

That's right.

Yeah, because they don't want that going among other nationalities.

Well, there's a matter of that.

Thank you.

And this is, in your view, this is really a very, very high order of business over the next several weeks.

I don't know about that.

They've got Jackson going on.

Jackson's actually got a lot of ties in there.

He's probably got his political ambitions.

Yeah, exactly.

Exactly.

All the way up.

So we've got that.

I will address ourselves to this.

When I walk in, you get to the top verse.

I'm one of myself, so this is where we're starting out.

I know what I mean.

I know who you are, but you see, I'm starting a meeting for the next week.

I mean, I want to teach.

I'm starting to...

I understand that.

Or a policy problem.

If you could work on that, get to the people by prompting them to do it, I am totally sympathetic.

Let me do it my way.

I know how to do it.

That's what I'm talking about.

I'm prepared to do that myself.

I've done this, and I've done this before.

And, you know, today, I've got going a little bit more aces in my hand because of the record.

Let me change this.

There we go.

They don't have the confidence to fill any, but it's fair enough.

And so if all of you be willing to see them, they will take it, I think, and you're welcome.

I don't know, but I think basically the best motion from the White House is when, because Len's sitting there, he's heard.

He knows that every time these problems come up, we produce.

We can do this joint with Max and I. I think the point you've got to make is that we produce.

That's what I'm trying to get at.

That's the most important thing I'm saying.

You know what I mean?

Exactly so.

See, that's the way to do it.

Rather than getting out there and saying, unless they stop, we're going to do something.

And they might not, but you see.

Another thing we'll do.

I will speak to it.

I think it's important.

Okay.

all the facts, and then we'll devise a strategy.

I've talked with men, and I think it's much better right now.

See, Bill is in a fortunate situation.

He gave his hand away on the same face of the nation the other day.

Max, I think we agreed the thing to do here would be to create a kind of a little underground potential that each of them really has a secret, and that indicates... ... ... ...

No, I know Jack has been working.

He's reasonable.

Yes, he is.

Jack has even set up...

Well, Jack has indicated, I had a talk with him, I even had a talk with Ribbock about this, and Ribbock can't quite, you know, there's political overtime.

Partisan.

Yes.

But we'll go to work on it, and I'll share with you this, and we're going to get everything we have.

We've had to deal with problems, and we've had problems in the last, of course, just a problem.

But one of them, the strategy we tried to devise on this, and we want to do it in such a way that

The worst thing, if I may say, Matt, Mr. President, is the kind of thing that Arbatov and the other fellows, going out being very public and saying in a very public way that the Americans have to do a certain thing, they've got to go a certain way.

I think that kind of heaviness.

George Arbatov, the head of the Institute on American Relations in the Soviet Union, made a speech here, and it was much too heavy-handed.

It's the kind of thing that just...

place in the hands of people who want to make this a very destructive political issue.

And that would be very hurtful to the Jewish community.

Thank you.

I wanted to say that Max, as you know, the president has been working with John Ehrlichman and with on the managing of the country.

Very helpful.

What I wanted to be in that I got a compliment as one of the as a sort of

All right.

But we need just some input from a practical standpoint.

The oil got conceived.

A debonair view is inevitable.

Yes, because the question is not if it was smart.

Smart is a way of knowing.

There's no adaptive thought.

Oh, boy, it kicks up fast.

You know what I mean?

He doesn't know anything about that.

I mean, he's basically one of these systems and offices guys.

But he's got a broader type of mind.

You're a president.

Yes, I'm in the Senate.

I'll tell you, I no longer associate with my own company.

I told John earlier, I'm willing to sign with a gas company.

I don't want to be associated with it.

My association is not on the basis of associating in an active way, either as a director or any other way with any company, because I feel by doing that, I'm not necessarily interested.

I mean it.

I've never worried about whether you're sensitive with anything or not.

We're not going to publicize you.

I mean, it's an outfit.

I understand the quality of the advice.

And we around here, we trust you.

You never come in and ask for, you know, a medal or something for yourself.

That's all we want.

So that's what it's going to be.

But don't sell yourself.

Thank you.

Yes, no, I'm familiar with that story.

No, I wasn't confirmed, but I wasn't familiar with that particular story.

The wrong result for the wrong reason.

I didn't want to just give an illustration.

I feel you don't have to go completely decontrolled.

Somewhere in between, it allowed for free stimulation.

You see, if we go for completely decontrolled, I actually realize we're terrible.

I was against that tool, and I didn't agree with the 3D control at all.

That's what the jurors say we've got to do, but it just won't work.

Well, I'm willing to spend, I told this to John, I'm going to spend all my time, a part of my time, whatever you need as far as energy is concerned.

Thank you very much.

and loaded with experience and knowledge in a variety of business areas.

I could do that, a little negotiation.

This is something.

Whatever it is, I'm ready to serve you.

I'm ready to give you something.

All right, I'm going to do it as a volunteer.

Let me ask you, I'm going to say another thing, and I think of one other thing that's occurred to me.

Max could do it.

George Schultz, I'm sure, has a little group around him.

He hasn't died, but he's been playing with this too, but I kind of enjoy the name.

We'll just follow up.

I see where George is.

Yeah, I think that would be great.

George, you know, calls for a little function about various things, because Max is going to follow us up there, and probably set out more, and give us some advice here.

There you go.

And they needed hot spray.

I mean, I have a thing about them.

Many of our great friends, Jim Roach, of course, he's a wonderful guy.

There's a lot of good guys on too.

But there's some jackasses too.

But I've never felt much of them.

And I told him, I wanted to see a comment with Kendall instead of the business manager next Sunday.

You and, you know, Kendall's trying to get us

names of businessmen that supported us and were willing to step out.

Your name, Jim.

That's the thing I'm feeling right now.

You see, we want to build.

I just want to mention, you've got any ideas as to how to keep food prices down?

You mentioned a lot of the other ones.

The reduced market.

That's right.

Decreased consumption by 10% will be in good shape.

As a matter of fact, the housewife, as I said, is the greatest price shipper in the world.

And yet you can't tell my housewife to quit.

Anyway, less than 10% less.

A little bit.

I think we're all in tune now.

This is a very interesting point.

That's a fascinating point.

Let me tell you, they came back.

They're then skinny, heavy-handed.

One word about it, I had an eye on it.

He said the hardest thing he did, they had to operate on the land of Asia.

But you know, that was a case for a war.

We had to go back to America.

Dad told me, he said, you know, I lost a few phones.

But he said, that went to my dentist.

The dentist figured it out.

And he said,

That's right.

their teeth were much better than people that had one of the hand chains.

Is that right?

Yes, sir.

The teeth, I didn't like to talk about teeth, but I had noticed that they complained about the fact that they didn't have any denture.

But you see, one of the worst things to do with teeth is all this rich food we eat.

It ruins us.

I mean, probably the smoking.

These guys come back.

I think it's a wonderful thing.

It's a beautiful thing.

The character of these guys, Len, they all talk.

You know how they communicated the curse?

They communicated it.

They'd sleep.

And when they're out sleeping in the yard, they'd sleep in various ways.

And they had a way that they'd talk to each other all over.

They had no way to do it, for example.

They never could write a damn thing.

They had nothing to read about.

Nothing to read except for propaganda stuff.

And nothing to

survivors, of course, are the best of the breed.

Yeah, and this is the way they talk.

They all talk.

It's very easy.

They talk in very, very quiet voices.

They're practically talking to the listener.

I mean, they're very, very confident voices.

It's very quiet.

I guess it's because they haven't talked in quite ever so long.

Although in the last three or four years, the treatment began to make up a bit, and they didn't get out and talk in

Fascinating.

This is an American elite.

We've had all the same movies, you know.

Movies of what we, the great movies of World War II, the prison camps, and so forth, and the escape, and the movie of the Great Escape, and the Great Escape.

There are stories of the Great Escape, but how do they survive?

Right.

The point is, the story of how these epic Americans survived is a great credit to our people.

And to see the American values preserved in a kind of a time capsule, and then to come out every time.

They come out and they say, they see you doing it.

And they feel like they're doing it.

Well, anyway, we want you to appreciate what you're doing.

Say another thing.

His wife, his wife, you're in charge of all that artistry.

You're our artistry.

does the arts, the swimming and all that, but to have a good brand on that, on the Kennedy Center thing or something, I don't know, or the National Commission of the Arts and so forth.

We don't want her.

We don't want her, unfortunately, but she's interested.

She might as well do it.

In other words, we ought to, rather than just appointing people that the other administration appoint, we have to pick our own people.

We do.

Absolutely.

Build a new elite.

We're trying to do

We had lunch with him today.

We had lunch with him.

Joe and I like Joe.

I thought they were afraid of Joe, too.

No, no, no.

No, I'll tell you what worries me today.

Well, when Sam comes over to the group, he's going to be on the floor.

He wanted to stay, and I'd like to see him stay on the job.

But you told us to have him.

We didn't get into this.

I'd like to be on the floor.

There's a reason.

Joe is so...

so strongly that we want some cheating.

So I'm going to give cheating a crack.

Cheating is basically threatening, very provisional.

And I think he did a good job.

Does he want to leave?

I'd say this is a man who allows you to move somebody out of the system.

Well, cheating is the armistice of the government.

He works with Henry.

I hope you give that consideration on this.

On Joe?

Yes.

You can't give Joe that.

I don't want that info.

He hasn't talked to me about that.

All right.

No, no, wait a minute.

I mentioned Paul.

Okay.

Eric's working for us.

This is Scott.

Sunday's at Tom Bear overnight.

Yeah.

He's interested in doing something now.

Yeah, I know.

He tried to sell a state on it for Germany.

They don't think he's heavy enough.

They don't think anybody's heavy enough.

I'll be back in a minute.

You follow up and just say it quietly so it doesn't look like we're making a sale.

To my great surprise, it went this way.

That Max said that the Jewish community here would be on the hell of a lot more comfortable in Cisco than the men.

You see, he gets that word.

It's an impressive way to describe it.

Tell him to find it.

Yeah.