Nixon, Dean & Moore on Presidential press conference and Watergate

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NixonWell, super go out to the desk and let them know. Well you know, I was saying to uh,

NixonI'm sure you both realize the announcement I made was enormously profound, got profound connotations through this country and through the world.

NixonThe level, the higher factor that the Chinese would accept the man that had negotiated an earlier agreement of their peace things, etc. and the fact that I pointed out that he was selected by a Democrat

Nixonbecause I wanted this to be continued. This was not just a one-shot trick for a journey for the four years and covered very much. But the first question wasn't about the truce,

NixonWatergate. The inherent the inherent the inherent hand-to-hand responsibility of the press corps there. For 40 minutes I had badgering, the bastards never asked one question about the most important subject that has happened.

NixonFive years from now nobody's going to remember Watergate, and Dean, and Segretti, and the rest. Twenty-five years from now,

MooreHear, hear.

Nixonthey'll remember that. [Crosstalk] That's brilliant. I hope you're right. That's really profound. And the answer the next day, beat him. Never mention it again.

DeanThat's fun.

NixonHuh? Right. Oh, well. You expect it, you know, we're not crying about it.

NixonIt's sort of a sad comment on our press corps that the great questions that affect our future, like peace, or even our domestic questions like they got a chance there, yes, a settlement of that one. Who else asked a local question?

NixonHe talked about the talk about stockpiles and talk about gun control. You know basically the press conference in the old days even in the Eisenhower years, was always broad. And they'd come and they'd ask for your opinions about things that people were thinking about.

NixonIt became broad. Shall we clean house in the area with this like it Can we clear the air in here? A little fresh air? Would that be all right? Can we clear the air? Huh?

DeanSure.

MooreSure. It turned, you turned them around on every attack. That was the beauty of it all.

NixonAnd then the star says that it leaves this town, I don't think that the majority of people in the country are going to agree with that, do you? By tomorrow morning they had to write some editorial to AP that the press conference was

NixonThe President welcomes the court test to that. That's a that's to be expected, isn't it? Yeah, that Star has a pretty had like

Nixonthat, but it's just as well. I think this shows that no matter what we got no matter what we do, they're only news in these conferences because of their wild, violent hatred of this Administration. They agree?

DeanI do.

MooreWell, this week,

BullStephen.

DeanNot for me. Good for you.

NixonNo, I don't care.

MooreI'll have a little uh diet [unintelligible]

DeanThey were full of it this week, of course, with everything kind of had and and Ziegler takes it so well. Yes. That's another reason you have somebody else, you know, do that. He's got a fire hose.

MooreCrack it was very nice to report that Ziegler said, he won't I won't answer, Ziegler won't answer. You've got that backs him up tremendously. That's the right line, all right.

DeanAll right, well now, we've we've restudied the transcript and uh it's just couldn't be in better shape. There's uh the the Senate is in a tizzy trying to figure out what they can do.

NixonWhat are they going to do?

DeanWhat they're going to do. They're all they're already backing off on a subpoena.

MooreHaving a court test, do you think that's good thing? Well, it's pretty, that was supposed, yesterday they didn't come up with that, I've got, that's what, my doubts kind of dissolved that night. You had that kind of a premise for staying in court.

DeanYeah. That, but also, you know, when you stop to think of the the effects

NixonAnother very important answer in there, which, I'm sure was good, was when they asked about [unintelligible]

NixonYou know, I was saying about how you responded. We express our concern and are very glad that other people [unintelligible]

Nixonand show them that that's the way it went, friend.

NixonAnd through it all he's friendly. State the fact, face it, they got all of it. Uh, I thought it was. But I guess after the field the few followers in at least they they asked about everything that we could think of. But I but I think it was wise not to go, you know, you know, and like not to say whether Chapin was fired or Kalmbach.

NixonLet this starter But then I think you said that are they going to have a lot of questions about that on Tuesday, and they ain't answering it. Don't you agree?

MooreI think, I think the whole thing took the, put the ball at the Senate's floor. You cut off discussion. You in you've indicated how far you are willing to go. If that won't satisfy them, aids uh they're not going to discuss the details and now it's up to somebody else to speak.

NixonWell, another thing I think, too, John, Ziegler and all the rest of our folks could be in a defensive attitude about this. No, I said I'm proud of the fact we had an FBI investigation. I can prove it. They can't disprove that.

NixonI am proud of the fact that we have been cooperating. We always furnish cooperation. And hence, now I was so delighted to bring the Kennedy, his case. That was Kennedy, but uh, we couldn't tell them, you know, that Harrah'll have it.

UnknownWhat?

NixonHuh? Did he walk?

MooreI think the way you stated that one about, you know, since it's general that's just purely a very definite situation with national security [unintelligible] I should say it's different. One is all espionage against the Nation. The other involves 7 [unintelligible] who happened to climb into an office and searched the car. There you should have cooperation. Really, that's a It's true too.

DeanAnd you turned right off [crosstalk] that had that had to turn you right off.

Nixonall the all the trash we read about this full question shouldn't be that. Oh, shit. They asked to kiss Truman about anything. Oh, it was Truman. But it is true, though, it was shocking that Truman issued that order. It was shocking because there was a report on the FBI files, and we knew it, and we couldn't get it until we broke the case and we got it.

DeanI thought the follow up on that question was going to be, "Does that mean you will release the Dean report?"

MooreThey they they had a chance there. They're trying to [unintelligible] moved into that and say no, but that's Yeah, I had a little bit of that. I saw on the sidewalk, I couldn't couldn't help this, Mr. President.

MooreMary McGrory and Peter Lisagor were walking together, talking about this hearing, so I walked behind them. They were like press for them. And uh Press for one?

DeanOh, yeah. Press for one. Press for that. That's good.

MoorePress for one. Oh, oh.

MooreAnd, at one point Mary said, and all of a sudden, he's talking about national security. I said, "Well Mary, I think he thinks national security is more important than politics. And she just [snicker] like that.

MooreWent to they're testing them, they look, like I say, completely nonplussed. They couldn't get into like words so I thought it was time to watch, plus what we got to fight. And uh, except that she said, well something about, seemed to divide the Hiss case, I thought they had 20 points, this point and that point. This was national security thing.

MooreAnd uh, I don't think like I can't really think national security is more important to the country than politics, and she just [snort] I said, you get good cooperation.

NixonWell the reason I raised that, too, was that they've been raising radical, radical has been raising and I'm sure that Cole, who has been president's press assistant getting it out was, when he was in Congress. Now I've allowed him to get out there and say it's not a bit different, and I said that's exactly what we have sworn on oath. We didn't ask for the files.

NixonWe only asked for a summary.

NixonNever, and she made a lot of them. And Hoover himself said, "I'd blow it up, I'd like to the FBI information, but I'm prohibited." He told me that

Nixonwhen we were investigating Goddamned cases. You know, Hiss was a Goddamned spy. That's a sorry spectacle in those days, believe me. And I'm not gonna let them ever forget it.

MooreNo. Don't.

NixonAnd not ever have the luxury of, that's right, [unintelligible] God damn it, remember, it was all filed around. Let's see if Hiss or Hiss or Hiss or Alger Hiss died of everything.

MooreTo this day, that just reaches in as the devil holy water for the devil. That's the one thing they hate to hear. It's, you know, you won and Hiss lost and they lost.

MooreAnd they'll never forget this, and they'll never forgive anybody for it.

NixonWell, then they, they asked me that very question.

MooreI see. Mr. Dean is has indicated he will provide--

NixonProvide information, yes.

DeanThat's all.

MooreWe took, and checked, I think at that point, uh, they concluded that you had had that some time back. They're saying that the, the, that the information would be readily available. The, you know, you can actually provide all the information.

DeanAll that is in the report.

MooreRight, right, exactly.

MooreWell, it's funny how you weren't able to turn the the Uh, that one, because I thought that that was a friendly question when he said, "Well, isn't there a difference?" And I thought, well, somebody's trying to be helpful. [laughter] [crosstalk] Because you know we served that letter earlier than he had expected, and I know what you meant.

DeanAnd they walked right into the court question, which was the one I was dead set you [crosstalk] would answer.

DeanNow, he said to me, he said, "Did you have a plant out there for that one, John?" [laughter]

DeanBecause I raised it, and they just walked right into it, and you just, you know, bam!

MooreAnd so.

MooreYeah. No one had thought about that. Thought about that one, and there you were, with a He has a photo of this.

DeanIn the middle of the afternoon. Then, went back,

Mooreit it was a very, uh, funny thing to say. But that's true, but not for long.

NixonI think it's very important that everybody know who the hell's running the show with the press, and uh and uh they need to, and uh let me say,

Nixonyou cannot be soft with these bastards. You've got to be tough, hurt, and, you know, of course, a little lightness now and then, but they got to know who the hell's boss.

MooreWe heartily agree.

MooreOf course, I agree. I do think that, I've always loved it when you're when you are pleasant to them, uh, which you always are, you're always gracious and you're always--

NixonOh, I must be sure, I didn't When you ask me a nasty question, they've got a hell of a nasty hit.

MooreThey've got a very firm answer.

NixonGod damn, don't you worry. Of course.

MooreOf course. Well, I can tell by the looks on their faces. Uh, I have said in the East Room, you know, we've all known that we don't hold the view that you shouldn't have that crowd standing around.

NixonListen to this, then.

MooreYeah. Why not?

MooreBut, uh, when when you have had a a good session, they walked out It's like in a poker game, you tell the losers all by the look on their their faces, and that's the bunch. One listens to these.

DeanOh, I I talked to Gray right after the, uh uh press conference, as well as getting Kleindienst a copy of the transcript because he was meeting with Ervin and Baker this afternoon, and I wanted him to to have a very clear understanding of what you had said about the future of turning over FBI reports.

DeanAnd it was that this was a one shot deal, that you understood why Gray did it, but uh uh tomorrow's another day.

NixonUnderstand, but I had no intention--

DeanNo. Uh, well, Gray also did say in his testimony, but I called and told Gray this also, and I said uh he said Gray said to me that, well, I did testify that I couldn't do this under my own authority.

DeanI would have to quit, but of course, the people I work for--

NixonShit.

DeanSo, he uh--

NixonAs I've pointed out, for many, many, Hoover never turned over an FBI file to a committee.

NixonHe always would show the file to a committee chairman, and so forth, in private, and, therefore, it never leaked. Right?

DeanThat's right.

NixonAnd he never turned out, and said, "Here's a raw file." And it shouldn't. And this case proves it, because they have taken a raw file and put out that information,

Nixonand some of it, it's it's hearsay, some of it is libelous, you know, absolutely untruthful.

NixonAnd once, as a matter of fact, I have read raw files on several people's, on some of this stuff, probably myself. The most godawful crap you ever saw, that

Nixonwe talked to a neighbor, and so forth, and thought he was a homosexual. When, by goddamned, I knew he was heterosexual all the way.

NixonWhich was fine.

NixonMy point is, and somebody else said that they thought he was gay, that every item that goes into a raw file, every item, and the FBI's so-called precluded.

NixonYou know, all these raw files.

DeanOh, I read them daily. I see that.

NixonWell, you have to read them, I I have not.

DeanRight. I'm the first to agree. That's hell.

NixonThey're, they're dumb, they're it's incredibly boring. Did an agent do this, so-forth, said this, heard this, it is and for that sort of thing to be in the hands of a committee of Congress,

Nixonwhich will always, bound to leak, is fundamentally wrong.

DeanI thought that was a good answer.

NixonIt took the damn took them all, that well, for instance, and and also I think it was good for me to keep throwing Hoover into it. I points to the Hoover territory. He said that he would never do it. He would turn over to committee chairman, he would discuss it, but he would not turn over.

NixonMr. Gray, you can't blame him, he wanted to be pictures--

DeanSense that you you talked in terms of Hoover's general position. You didn't say, uh, that this had never occurred. Now, I, based on our conversation yesterday, did check into that. I re-checked and re-checked, and it's very well the way it is. They're still trying to put it together. But apparently, back in 1948,

Deanthere may have been

Deanone time when Hoover did send up to the committee raw data. They're trying to trace this down for me. Uh, this was a, uh,

NixonHUAC?

DeanNo. No, it wasn't. It was the, uh, it was one of the, uh, Internal Security of the Senate, I think.

NixonYeah.

DeanNo. But they're getting that all together for me, too. But there's nothing in recent This was a an exceptional situation. Oh, I know what it was. Gray thought it was an A Kansas City vote fraud case.

NixonOh, Christ.

— 1 min 12 s with no transcribed speech —

DeanMr. President,

MooreDick brought me in. Did you have a second to look at this statement of, uh, John? It's so short.

NixonSure.

DeanThat's that little sententious paragraph.

NixonWell, I thought they had stepped--

DeanDid you like it?

MooreIt might have been better to leave that down. That's a terrible practice. I'm sure that, you know, we are on the right side of that issue. I hate this damned, uh, American Civil Liberties Union.

NixonYeah, and I say at the time that no one can prove the issue then except

Nixonthe Chicago Tribune, and the New York Daily News, every goddamned paper in the pack supported [unintelligible]

MooreSure.

Nixonsaying it shouldn't. Now, there were reasons I took it into part of that reason they hated, and they despised the committee. They didn't think we could ever do it right, and only way we were later reluctantly admit we did run a pretty good show was I buckled down and saw they did.

NixonThe point is The point is,

MooreWell, that is a cold, hard truth. But, you see, so they fight off of it.

NixonWell,

Nixonthat I, the man who went and had this battle with the executive 25 years ago, uh, on a matter involving the security of the nation, and then, having broke that goddamned case,

Nixonover their opposition,

Nixonthat I have determined that so that our administration has found a way of cooperating with Congress, that's what I want to bring out. We're positive about it. We are cooperating. We want to furnish it.

MooreChief.

NixonWhat's that? What's this?

Moorethe basic uh thrust of it was affirmative, in that you were in favor of providing information for the Congress, and you were then and you are now and then

Mooreit it's really It It they weren't prepared for it. They They had no idea you'd take this turn on them, and it just worked. And it was right, and it was And you're on solid ground and you-

NixonSolid ground. Yep. That's cross- [crosstalk]

MooreNo, they'll hang out, I wouldn't doubt uh they'll Well, you know, the Times and the Post will have their interpretations tomorrow about Mr. Nixon suddenly deciding that he won't champion uh uh making information available uh uh, and uh, but uh and they'll say that, well, he-

NixonWell, you notice I used another term today, which is very important. I said, "my constitutional responsibility to defend the principle of separation of powers."

Nixon"My constitutional responsibility-" [crosstalk]

DeanMhm.

MooreThat's the way they handle it.

Nixon-rather than executive privilege. Privilege sounds bad.

NixonMy constitutional The President's constitutional responsibility to defend the principle of separation of powers.

DeanWell, you know, that point occurred to me. We got to get off this talk about the White House staff not appearing because of executive privilege. They're not appearing because the President is preserving the separation of powers.

NixonThey are Because of the President's constitutional responsibility. Put it that way. He is carrying out his constitutional responsibility as others have for years.

NixonEver since And remember when Truman fired MacArthur, and it was a terrible thing to do, but I supported Truman, because I thought MacArthur was in the wrong.

NixonWe're on the other Truman was right. That's Truman's got it. He was meeting his constitutional responsibility to be commander in chief and MacArthur said, for years, he had to fire him.

NixonSo it is with this thing. The President is always getting under the shield of constitutional responsibility to defend separation of powers and to defend, and it isn't executive privilege. They have a privilege.

NixonWe have a privilege so-

DeanRon ought to start with that theme tomorrow.

NixonYes.

DeanWe refuse to permit the separation to be infringed.

NixonThe President has a constitutional The President's constitutional responsibility. Gray sees that he can't turn over all past and future sheets. He sees that.

DeanHe absolutely knows it. He said he's uh uh he has tried to cut them off a long time ago. We've heard that, of course, before. He was He thinks that your press conference was exactly right. He said, "John, I don't want any misunderstanding about my position in this, that uh that you shouldn't go up there and all this sort of thing." So, he's-

DeanHe knows what's happening. Uh-

NixonOtherwise, who'd go up there?

DeanThat's why he won't let it happen.

NixonI don't think he'd go now, huh?

MooreI don't think he can, now. Uh-

NixonThat's why Chapin actually will be Chapin. Because he's a whore for all these [unintelligible]

DeanThey'll pick the weakest one, I would suspect, for their court test.

NixonChapin probably.

DeanProbably. We were just talking about that, and I was suspecting it'd be it taking the course.

MooreI'm afraid it will be Chapin, because they have that Segretti connection. Now they They don't have Colson by the balls, like they've got Chapin by the balls.

DeanNo.

NixonNow Chapin they've got with the FBI, Segretti, and what else? You know what I mean. That's Right.

DeanRight.

MooreWe've got to find the answer to that uh that's-

NixonWhat is the answer to that? I don't-

MooreWe don't have it because they don't. We've thought of all kinds of thought of just getting something out in advance. At one point, we thought of having him write you a letter saying that he'd made this error in judgment, and we ought to have a tick-tock, and he was sorry, and resign, and you would cheat. But, well, we've talked we've talked about all we've talked about all these-

MooreAll he has is can take the word to get out that the most that Chapin did was to uh say, "If you get annoyed at what has been done for you and there is came up for us to say, we ought to find a young fellow to be either dick" Uh-

Mooregot got touched with his old college chum who was in college politics with him, and talked someone into hiring him as a as a prankster. And then Chapin went back to his duties, Bobby, travel, and had nada to do with supervision, or his deals, regardless if he ever accomplished goddamned thing uh at that cut.

DeanIn fact, uh they did uh Dwight has said that. He said that in his last interview with the Bureau, he said, "You know, this thing's so so free, that this man uh you say that he report to me," he said, "What he was doing was of so little consequence, opposed to what I was doing. I can't even remember if he said anything of any moment to me at all. It just was It was They were pranks. They were silly things. They didn't When I'm working on a an advance of a trip to China and to Russia, these things just seemed totally irrelevant."

DeanWell, we'll get that all squared away. That's-

NixonHow would you How would you handle uh Dwight's uh Maybe let him go up and testify?

MooreWell, I would think, Dick, uh, that it it's going to be hard to defend his not going uh is it because he's an ex-aide, low-level. And he's gone, and while we can certainly establish and defend the principle that the privilege attaches at the time he was here, it stays. Frankly, his story is so is so uh-

Mooresuch a nothing story that maybe you just ought to let him go.

DeanThe reason they want Chapin is because he's the link to Haldeman.

MooreUh well, he But Chapin's obvious coolest coolest coldest facts on that, I would suspect he wouldn't mind. "I was in charge of nasty and all sort of thing, and he never knew anything about it." Is that what he says?

DeanMhm.

MooreIt's a difficult question, but if we could find an answer-

NixonWell, we've left it open slightly in that we would I said that nobody will testify, but the fact of the matter is-

DeanThat's right. The statement very clearly says on a case-by-case basis. That's right. Case-by-case basis. And then And the statement reads, "Shall normally decline."

NixonThat's the statement. Yeah, that's it. But uh-

DeanWell, case-by-case basis, no one's going to appear uh that will examine that door's always open.

MooreBut get Chapin to supply information, that may well be that we can give a statement, several informal statements from him, and uh and that we use a very-

NixonJust get him a goddamned full sworn statement, and let it go.

MooreI just think it's better not to draw The cross-questioning on this will get to be a problem.

NixonYeah, on television, the television show.

DeanThat's right, Dick. You know, if they start running a a clean-cut looking guy like Chapin from pillar to post- [crosstalk]

MooreDwight is- Dwight is uh But if he were John Connally, it would be no problem.

NixonNow Colson-

MooreColson's no problem.

NixonHe's got a high level. Oh boy! Oh, man, you can see that.

MooreThat's true, but the people here, including the investigators that Teddy Kennedy crowd, I think will be the ones that run that show, getting at him. They think of him like they think of Washington, big in this circle. So they think they think he's a bigger bigger game than perhaps he is to the to the public by large.

MooreSo, there'll be pressure on Colson.

MooreWhat would you think about Colson?

DeanI don't think he should go up.

NixonI think Colson actually, because of his Frankly, he's tied to Hunt. And Hunt's in Watergate. Chapin is not tied to Hunt. Hunt is [unintelligible]

DeanNo.

MooreChapin has never has never met him. Never talked to him. Yes. Well, they won't try Chapin. Well, we'll see who they try. I I think they-

DeanNo.

NixonThey may subpoena. They may not want this test.

MooreYou think they will? I don't care. Let them do it. We've had How long is it going to take to argue it? It's going to take a little time.

DeanThat's the beauty of it. If they If fact that they go for Chapin, there There disappears Chapin for a year at least, or better, until all the rest is over. [crosstalk] Oh, when they get to the Supreme Court, we're-

MooreIt'll take a long to get it up.

DeanWell, that's right. We'll take it all the way up, but by the time you've got through the district court, Court of Appeals, and Supreme Court uh and I would think the government would move at the last moment. We wouldn't want to move it fast. I don't think we'd want an expedited trial or anything. Oh, no. We'd want this These are too important of issues to to-

NixonThoroughly briefed.

DeanFirst,

MooreThoroughly briefed, first.

DeanCircuits uh-

DeanI believe could last a year,

Deanor more, depending on what when at what time that the issue arose in term in terms of that the Supreme Court, you know, hell.

MooreAnd that, and that's one of the handiest things to come out of here, by the press conference today, is the forthcoming Supreme Court challenge, and you're saying that you could have asked for it, and you'd be happy to have the Supreme Court decide it, and-

Mooreand you'll go down to there, support your constitutional responsibility to defend the separation of powers. Now, that's always there, and they know that. It makes us look, "Look, we're we're willing to submit to arbitration, so to speak. We're perfectly willing to have the court decide that." Now, that's for them, in a spot, [laughter] they have also,

NixonThat worked That worked, it seems to me, puts us in a position, if they dig for court, we fight out, that also gives a shield-

Nixonand everybody else, that they preach about. It happened so good that day.

DeanI wish they would fight right now on, on me. I really do.

MooreWell, you're the, you're the one that's the easiest to defend.

NixonOf course. Well now, whether they fight on you, that's the one they should, and actually he's

NixonYou understand, this committee, if they ever get into shape,

Nixonthis committee's interested in Dean.

NixonIf they fight on Dean, and we can't win that in court, there's something wrong with the goddamn court.

MooreWell, the rest of them it gets technical, but the hardest, if the title disappears, if you force him to take counsel to the President,

Moorethe counsel of the President, who really has an executive privilege, right? And, there's an executive privilege, no question about that, so they, as you say, they would fight it.

MooreWell, we don't think they'll have it. We don't think they will.

DeanYeah, the backed-up appearance is, uh, they're backing off already. Byrd put out a statement that he wasn't sure this was the forum and the time and the place uh to get to the court issue. And Ervin was saying that I, what I my uh committee will subpoena all these people,

Deanand they'll uh if we have to go to court and fight it, we'll fight it.

NixonLet's go wider, I said. Yeah. Good. But the hit it's not moved in at the Judiciary Committee now. They have to, they have to take that step, too.

MooreSo Ervin has been He's been the whole authority.

DeanYeah.

MooreSo maybe they will take a different approach with the people. Well, I think they've they've figured out they're on their on a their weakest turf. Help's figured that out, else.

NixonYou hate to say it, though. Figured they hurt.

DeanMaybe they want to go to court.

NixonWell, when they wake up tomorrow, and they start examining this election, it seems to me somebody's going to say, "Let's not go into court with the man who the White House who is the easiest one to defend, the best for the President to defend, his own counsel." Uh, unless they're dumber than we might think.

NixonOn the other hand, he's the most important one and this can be said, the committee really, he's the most important. Well, Segretti's the only one. Segretti. So, what? But I, I,

NixonI would think that, but they they are, they marched up the hill. They have huge challenge that they can't throw at us, by him, suicide. If they, if they marched down again, that that's good for us. It kind of keeps us, keeps you in the position you should be in, right?

NixonWait for him to march down. Ervin, of course, is far overrated, He's basically sort of a stuffy, pompous ass and everybody that knows him thinks he he thinks he's a constitutional lawyer, right? He doesn't know the witch of the Constitution is on.

NixonHardly anybody else, he's, you know, he's a constitutional lawyer [unintelligible]

NixonThey won't run out. Why don't they?

MooreI think I think it was important though today to get out, not only on this issue, but on the others that they raised, it's good to get out there and stay down on the the curls these press people because they're so,

Moorethey're so mean and so crawling in. God, they're they're just horrible.

NixonRight, Ziegler.

DeanZiegler now has a has a very clear bridge or a device to deal with these people for countless weeks. That's right.

NixonAlso, we go out with the fact that I I pointed Ervin, one of Ervin, well, he probably does this to the guy that he did say this, but I said, "Ervin Ervin says he's a he's a great He's not going to allow any hearsay. He's not going to allow guilt by association.

NixonHe's not going to allow innuendo." Well, he's, he says, those high principles, of course, that we, I don't have nothing to say about it, but it's people are you know,

MooreYou know, when when we were out here when we had that dialogue out here that was one area that uh that I suggested I provided to Haldeman, remember? Completely unrelated to that.

NixonI played it well, too.

MooreYes, you know, because we did, the Hiss case, it was conducted that way. Ervin, Ervin shall say, it straight, we're really constitutional lawyer and all that crap. But we put Ervin on position, Ervin Committee,

Moorethat if he brings any hearsay, our members should sway with what I'm saying. And also, that Ervin is asked, "Are you going to And then, I'm sure that somebody asked him, "Did you did you subscribe to what the President did not hear you say?"

DeanIn fact we ought to have somebody ought to follow up on that with a question to Ervin, "What's your sound

MooreSomebody's going to tell him in an interview, "What is your view? I mean, no hearsay, no guilt by association, no guilt by innuendo. Are you bound to rule those things out, Senator Ervin, in conducting your hearings?"

NixonWell, oh, I Yes. Let's get him on that. Somebody's got to get him on that.

MooreDon't you agree, Ted? Of course. I think we have pinned him down, even he has and and I think he would he'll be pleased by what you said.

NixonOf course. Uh, Ervin wouldn't dare sell that say that. I'm sure going to have that hearsay out of there.

MooreIt's impossible.

NixonI think so. I mean, they'd-

MooreRight. If they, if they've had their investigation, that that McCarthy thing he would have to rule out 3/4s of the questions by the dumb student Sanders.

NixonSanders. That'll be that hearsay. Every day, that's hearsay. And you raise another thing, then allow those tremendous council hard council.

Nixon"Mr. Chairman, I object, that's hearsay." You see, if you ever get rules of court

Nixonin a committee hearing, if you ever get that, it ruins a committee. That's great. And an investigative committee has to be a fish expedition.

NixonI, I am not I knew exactly what I was doing. He said, I was all that smart, but we, we followed up everything. I took, in the press, like

Nixonwe had everything. We have, we have the FBI. We threw the wall. We used their investigators.

NixonAnd it was honest, and by God, they roared us, this, uh, that,

Nixonand it was very ignorant, but with your whole, our whole government against us, against us. It was very, frankly, frankly, it was hell.

NixonAll the FBI was against us. Right here, the chief of justice department, you know, the blue used to come out and say, "God, I'm frightened." Jesus Christ, we've got to, can you tell something?

Nixon"Sorry, mister. As a Congressman, we can't do it. We got this order." See, we used to get leaks from the committee,

Nixonthe federal committee, and they were terrible. That's where we got the Hiss, but in some of our other investigations, so they got Hollywood ten,

Nixonthat's where they got crap, they got lots of stuff on hearsay. When the Hiss case, we got nothing.

NixonAnd absolutely, nothing during the course of that. That case, literally they broke

Nixonby, by, uh, Frank Bow, sir. And myself. The two of us. Well, we worked night and day, bastardly goddamn thing. And we just did it by, it's sugar, and uh

DeanI bet you told frankly honest, they said that it's must have been just bloody hell exciting when you go out on that.

NixonYeah, there's always exciting, though, because of deeply involved.

NixonOh, they just like to have him take on the bloody card, because boy, they yeah, you should have seen some of her like, of course the editorial is so vicious, I used to wake up at night.

NixonIt hurts. But there was such Darn, though. It's like that when the Kodak people said they were awful. That's right.

MooreUh, that was funny. That lasted an hour.

DeanYeah. You, you stuck with it, you re-stained it and then, everybody said they were assessing it, for working for what's your reaction.

NixonAnd, they took her side, of course, God is her saviors. It's special to stay, so, well, that that became a fixture in itself. We're wrong. Start with tail and chunk for wrong, right here in the archives. It is a sorry, It is a story to no drama.

NixonWe just And they will not do it, because in the nature so on our side, and we're after fascists, should have had that saw over the ear. He he's serious with forever, but this can, this this

NixonOne boy, that's uh who's a lawyer, but dumb and smart. You know what, who's the Texas senator? I mean, who's that old racist from Arkansas, Fulbright?

NixonFulbright is He hadn't, he was strict uh, course he he was a hater. He hated Negroes and all that, the whole rest of it, hate.

NixonHe was a bad, evil guest, was not a lawyer and he graduated from college and whatever they named him Rhodes scholar from Arkansas, never cried, never shout, never. He had all that, he was as smooth and thoughtful and subtle.

NixonAnd, I thought, "God, I'd hate to be up against him." For example, I mean, the never to be It's not so critical. Right? Right, is not even that good.

NixonEven if I would take it, if he had been in charge, to try to do something, I'll say this for Colson, that he ought to have Colson around, if Colson had been in charge,

Nixondo something, getting information, [unintelligible] nobody would have ever seen his hand.

NixonYou see, there are very few men like that.

Nixonan extraordinary fellow to be around, an extraordinary talents. We don't grow them anymore. And, uh, and, uh, because our our guys, basically, are much more organized, you know. But when you get into a hard line, they they don't, sometimes,

Nixonthey they just don't know how to they do think the easy way, the subtle way, and they they want to go charging in. But look here now. We were quite a combination. I was 35, I think. 32,

NixonI think, 33, and he was 30, I think he was younger, 28. To think that we took on the whole establishment. The whole Eastern Establishment, the New York Times, the Washington Post,

Nixonthe editor of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch. Jesus, we got bullied. Look, they laughed, they's torn up, look like, Jesus Christ. And we took on, we took on the Congress, they were congressional heroes.

NixonAll those older around [unintelligible] the whole State Department, the Washington social set. It was a rough deal, a rough go. We hung in there, and

Nixonand it was, uh, it it'll never It left a mark on this town that will never come off.

MooreWell, celebrated because it was because he was who he was, wasn't it?

NixonYes.

NixonYes, his brother Justices. He was part of the establishment. Part of it. You see, the whole thing was that we were touching a very part of the establishment like getting Alger Hiss. He was Harvard, uh the whole Harvard class, which like including the Bundys, all the people were against him.

MooreYeah, right, and they contributed to his defense fund. Sure. He was an intelligence, sir. I had dinner- dinner party argument in New York, 25, whatever it was, 30 years ago.

MooreAnd they were all, what that was a fine thing, and I said, well, you certainly have a right to do it, but I question how his uh folks who are in the intelligence are regarded, because they had just handed, but Hiss was guilty. Which wasn't proved, you know, and I I knew it then. I had a couple of admissions.

NixonAnd listen. Everybody knew it after the confrontation. That's the main story to tell you, you see. When I, uh you know, when I uh when I I brought the two together and asked him about the car, and the rug,

Nixonand all these things they settled. Just just [unintelligible].

MooreWell, everybody I knew had known on August the 17th,

Nixonhe said, "Can you write, so that this man is he said, "Could I see his teeth?"

NixonAnd then he said, uh uh and then, he says, "The man that I knew as Crosby had very poor teeth." I can use this in a speech, you see, it just broke the obvious thing. It's the old 1980 joke. And I said, "Yes, it's just can you take your mouth?" And Chambers stood up and stared into space. Of course, the minute they saw each other,

Nixonhe knew that Hiss was the man. Period. And uh and uh so then I said to uh then Hiss, and then Hiss said, "I wonder, Mr. Congressman, if I could have the name of the dentist who treated Mr. Chambers' teeth?"

NixonI turned to Chambers, and I said, "Did you tell him that you had to go to the dentist to get work done on your teeth, and tell him or not? You knew him well?" And he would not, you see. Can you imagine? Well, that was all. It's all out publicly.

MooreThis was, anyone, anyone [crosstalk] who had who had been [unintelligible] and it's not safe with a son of a bitch.

NixonThe action's why, right?

MooreRight.

DeanGod almighty, Mr. President, the will to believe that that hell, it's absolutely overwhelming. Well, I mean, it's they have a they have a people,

Nixonintellectuals' main thrust is is power, power. And they will lie.

NixonThey they hate this, but they will lie. They'll lie themselves. That's what I mean. In other words, and they'll just say the facts are not that way.

DeanBecause it couldn't happen to one of our people. Right.

NixonThat's right.

MooreAnd what was it, well, I tell you it was a great question. I happen to be I know you're one of them, the younger candidate for California. I lived like in much of California in '49, and the the case was over by then. That's right.

MooreHe was convicted. That's true, but was it, well, the the conviction case was over and it started rancher [unintelligible] and they and they kept fighting, but they kept fighting. The whole case had already been decided, and I actually met you in the 48th. I think I met you in '50 in the campaign.

NixonRight.

MooreUh but but uh I followed this thing with fascination because I was living in New York for most of the early part. And then, also, I spent the last 6 months a year in the war during the time that Hiss was here. And I actually had heard that uh that Hiss was presumed to be a communist way back in

Moore'45.

DeanIn the old circle, a group of conservatives told about him, the human events people. His communist?

MooreAnd I don't see why Roosevelt went to Yalta. He said, "No, they're they're a fear of fighting everybody else's.

DeanChambers hissed.

MooreThat's right, but the it didn't come out. But when they found the license in the car for this, cardio, what kind was it? What was it, a Plymouth? Whatever. As soon as they uncovered that and sure enough, Hiss was the guy who sold his car to the the young communist. Yes. And that stole it. The whole thing was out.

NixonWell, you see, but what you have to understand, what we did that you understand, we had no investigators. We had nothing. We had, uh, we had, uh, we had, uh, one, we had, uh, we had a Joyce Shaw, uh, a very bright guy,

Nixonwho used to work on things. We had uh Stripling and we had one investigator, a former FBI who made mistakes, who went out to car lots. He did the work. The three of us did that case alone.

NixonThe whole goddamn thing. And, uh, and that was, uh, But you see, that's why I said that, by God, the FBI should provide the same information to a committee when it's all, "Let us get our subpoena power." That's all we asked. We didn't, we wouldn't have dreamed of asking, well, needs to save that Hoover to testify, or I wouldn't dream to ask to go down to see Hoover, or to see Foster.

NixonAll we wanted was to get the information. "Give us a statement about it." They said, "Nothing. Out. One line. [snaps fingers] You get nothing." A statement, huh?

DeanThat's it. You can bleed for four more days on like that. It's trumped.

NixonIn my speech on the Hiss Case, I put in, to serve on them, the FBI report that was ripped up, because what happened was that after we busted the case, an agent leaked it to us.

MooreMm-hm.

NixonWe got it, so I put it in the speech.

MooreAll right, well they got plenty to do. I mean, think you used you used the phrase the whole establishment. Everybody was in on it. They were in kindergarten that's back when they were. But this was,

NixonYou know, take for example, people like Peter Lisagor. He was here.

DeanScotty Reston.

NixonPeople, they don't like to admit this, and they seldom will, but as far as the old guard press is concerned, they have hated me, and they've hated ever since. And it goes back to that.

NixonAnd they'll say, well, that's exaggerated. It wasn't all that. Bullshit. You can go back and read what they said. They hated to see you win. Win! Dash, and that's right.

MooreRight. I think we did test out the way.

DeanOh, I think

MooreIf we hold it back until this day, I think he would have been What year did the rush hour on both sides were going to clear out some people. Right.

NixonWhat did they win?

MooreI thought it would seem finally Washington Washington that case.

DeanRight.

MooreWell, keep our hands off the committee's cars, you know, just how they vote, for anything else, I think it'd be extremely dangerous for the republic if they just touch it. I know that.

DeanMr. President, by and large, with the trial, I have the Republican for all the statements I hear Republicans have been saying they're having the the the fact that we're wanting to come forward, but that I have a

NixonYes, and and they had asked my

NixonSo, whoever You chalk up this side. That's right. The real and that's the problem is said we've been more forthcoming than any administration, outside of God, than in truth. We've been less repressive than any administration, actually, and so, for sure. So, I guess, that would make you feel better. [laughter]

MooreWell, anyway, uh we'll see you tomorrow.

DeanThank you, Mr. President.

Nixon, Dean & Moore on Presidential press conference and Watergate

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Nixon, Dean & Moore on Presidential press conference and Watergate

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Nixon Library Finding Aid

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Also recorded on March 15, 1973

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