Conversation 882-012

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Well, I was wondering what your latest developments were.

Do you, uh, start to keep your boys all hopping around?

Well, hopefully.

Uh, Dick Moore and I are going to work in this afternoon at, uh... Where do you work?

Pardon?

Where do you work?

Over.

Well, the work over in my office is pretty quiet around here today.

Any time that you...

i think that might be a good thing i mentioned that to mitchell yesterday that we probably need a good sit down kick the thing around session uh i would say that as a result of your press conference that forward momentum that was going and building stopped and and that it punctuated and again we're in the breeding

Say, the press this morning is different.

For example, it says an accord has been reached.

It's posted, even willing to say that, as far as the information being provided.

They couldn't, they tried to find something nasty to say, but they realized that it was a cooperative effort.

What you have to do is be in a good posture come the OB gun on urban hearings.

It's always been, to me, the most troublesome thing is that if he were going to be non-biased, if he were going to be non-partisan, if he were going to be fair and just and the judge he likes to believe he is, 90% of his hearings would be held in executive session.

Sure.

Rather than... And also the 10% would be held in executive session.

That's right.

What I've been trying to conceive of is, in some way, the

Irving himself could come to that position.

He would be harming innocent people, but he will be dragging people into things that his side really dragged him in.

But that's the name of the game in the city, and he's going to love to play it.

You went into it, sir?

I, we, we, we interviewed, uh, we, we took, uh, after, after the chamber, the chambers went on a public session, John, John, the gifts went on, and I, then after that, I had an executive session with the chambers alone for a couple of hours.

Rachel and I had an executive session with the gifts alone.

And then the two together in New York.

And then all the interviews, I think we go public.

Well, you know, that would be the fair way for Irvin to play it.

And when he's ready to go public.

Yeah.

Well, anyway, that's possible.

And then I guess you've got the figures.

So whether you and Moore, perhaps you individually are right now collecting those.

I said I am writing what I would call the general, a very general statement.

Maybe I understand her.

I'd say, Senator, you can understand what the hell we got here.

Here's my point.

The, uh, that's one way.

The other way would be to put it out.

I mean, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the,

Okay.

Or, without going into that, you could say, you know, what's the White House status and all the so forth and so on.

It may be that those kind of vertical statements even.

What I'm getting at is that the moment that you get too specific, then I realize that they're going to say, why do you withhold something?

In fact, you could simply say these are conclusions that we have reached based on your evaluation of the information that came to your attention.

They've got a chance to go their own way, but we want to be as helpful as we can.

Here's what we've concluded, and we welcome you as a reviewer.

Can you, uh, can you phrase something that, uh, let me just take one step further?

It might be a very interesting approach.

Uh, if Ervin were to be called out here, and, and given Warren's statements that were given to you back after I prepared my report,

the degree of their knowledge.

Now, what would be in there that would be embarrassing politically, and you might put Ervin on the spot, is, because I don't think he would want to embarrass for the sake of embarrassment alone, is that there was knowledge that there was an intelligence

knowledge that these people were going to be something criminal.

And to the contrary, Mr. President, would an effort by the White House to cut off anything, it would be illegal.

Well, as a matter of fact, the White House even makes themselves a big statement.

It's all over here that I have put, that I have given instructions to recognize that he was the best one that he could have made.

And I did not see him at that point.

I don't see him going back.

We expected ours to be, we had to get intelligence on it from the standpoint of security, et cetera, prepared, you know, put that whole thing out, put out to the scene record of what we expected in San Diego, what we expected there, and therefore we were trying to get intelligence, et cetera.

You know what I mean?

uh, you could just say, here's this long statement that I want to give to the people that I have gotten from that night, which were for the record.

What further information do you have?

Well, the interesting thing is, in the sequence of the way things occurred, uh, and I don't know if anyone has ever taken you through this, but the last involvement, to my knowledge, of the White House was when I came back from a meeting

Well, there was, you know, there was a preliminary discussion of setting up an intelligence operation.

Yeah.

And the last, and the last.

All right.

The last thing that.

was I came back from a meeting with Mitchell, and Liddy, and told, after telling them that they couldn't discuss this in front of the Attorney General of the United States, came back and told Bob, if there's something like that going on, we've got to stay two miles away from it, 10 miles away from it, because it just is not right, and we can't have any part of it.

Bob said, I agree, and we don't have no part of it.

That was where I thought it was turned off.

And the next thing I heard, that was the break-in on June 17th, which was

Yeah, I did.

That's what distressed me quite a bit.

That's right.

Mitchell just sat there on his pipe and he puffed and said nothing.

He didn't agree to it.

You don't need to say it.

You could say that they were going to engage in intelligence operation.

You said the main thing is that it must be totally legal and the laws and ethics and so forth.

So you came back and said it must be legal and the laws and ethics and so forth.

So you came back and said it must be legal and

We knew it was totally necessary because of the violence, the demonstrations,

This is another point on not using the FBI for political purposes either.

While we would collect normal demonstration intelligence, we would use specific intelligence as to where there are concerted efforts by opposing political people to demonstrate, cause disruption, and get these techniques whipped up into a frenzy and the like.

And that's not the function of the Bureau.

All the matters discussed, whether or not stated in the Bureau, should be, it was pointed out that in the 1964 elections, the Bureau was huge.

I said that.

Mm-hmm.

You get that?

Mm-hmm.

You get my point?

Mm-hmm.

And that's, and I think that all of them said under no circumstances or all of them were mentioned, the Bureau was able to know anything privately.

Because the Bureau should not be involved in a partisan contest, so we do not use the Bureau in this.

We could use demonstrations of political character that the Bureau has never used.

It's true.

But I'm not certain it's what you're saying.

That's what they're trying to do.

But they weren't collecting the same type.

They were collecting the tracks, and they were looking to see who was behind it.

What I'm getting at is that you've got them to put on a lot of self-serving men, and the main thing is the president has

Then, you see, it basically clears the president.

That's right.

That's got to be done.

That's right.

That's got to be done.

And frankly, they've got to say, I did this, this, this, and this, and this, and this, and this, and this.

That's right.

And he would say, I did this, but I have nothing to do with this.

Now, it seems to me that the way these would be handled publicly, or when I say publicly, out of external from the White House, that you might well

just give me a sermon directly and say, I want you to know what I know.

And I think that, you know, innocent people here who have committed no crime, but to the contrary, have tried to operate in the most proper way, are going to be maligned.

This is the truth.

And I wanted to know this beforehand.

I wanted to know this is all we know, all I know.

And this is the fact.

And I had to know.

And I didn't know that I wouldn't have to take her home.

No, I would agree with that.

You know, just a little shot across the body.

All right.

What do you think?

I heard your intelligence about his operation.

Nothing affirmative that he was good at all.

He said yesterday that he will say again on TV tomorrow and will say that his intention is to set aside tax breaks if the president wants him to return to the picture so that he isn't alone in putting aside a tax reform for trade.

And if that's where the thing hangs, that he says, on that basis, you do need to call for Q that someone else calling isn't going to do any good.

All right.

That the question of the surtax, surcharge, he will not raise.

He feels that was answered by what happened in Paris.

He's satisfied on that and will not push that anymore.

He told him not to do that.

scheduling of a bipartisan meeting on leadership meeting on trade they feel now should wait till april 10th when you get back the mills will take this up on the 30th we said in april yeah and so if we send it up on the 10th let's sign it up

Or they don't want to buy cars, I mean, you see, they'll take a trade right after the C's at the buy cars, the 85 or the 27.

Right.

That's up.

They say not change the 29, maybe a gallon for the others.

His point now is you don't really need it because we don't need to send it out until the 10.

And it's better to wait to send it out until we need it.

Just as I said, the only reason he can interrupt his tax hearings for the trade is if the trade relates to the current international crisis and how our international stuff, and you're assuring that it does, that it will have an uptick in early April so that the thesis ends up in the eastern recess that will work out very well.

Which he has agreed with Lannigan to do.

He said he'd talk to Lannigan.

Yes, sir.

All right.

That's okay.

All right.

And he said he would confirm, and I'm keeping track of it.

All right.

That is his position.

All right.

We do try to .

It might be an affront to Baker not to bring him in and to try to, you know, get them both on the field.

No.

Oh, Lord, no, I would think.

But, you know, there's a lot of appeal to just bringing Sam Ervin alone in.

That's my point.

I mean, he's a, he is a, basically, he's got to be running.

If they run, I can just call him down and say that I didn't warn Baker that, you know.

That's the way I think it'd be better.

I'd say, now, look, the president wants to, he's had it, put it this way, now, he's had a talk with you and he wants to have a talk with Ervin.

Mm-hmm.

I said, here it is.

And I said, I want to know that we cooperate.

And here's, I've asked for, did they explore and have a date with everybody?

They're here.

And he'll say, well, they appear to have written an aerobics order.

He says, yes.

He wants to go further.

I don't know.

But suppose I want to bring that up with my counseling questions.

No.

President Ron is right.

We're set every piece deeper.

Honest, honorable men who are going under oath, they're swearing to me this is the extent of their knowledge.

And they will, but on the other hand, we're not saying that if they have a vision problem, it will come out as a result of this.

You won't answer President Ron for this, right?

Well, you're talking back.

Yeah, I guess what you could do is monitor his back, Dr. Ryan.

I was, I wanted to talk to you for just a moment, that, uh, uh, that was, uh, this morning I told him I had this conversation with you.

I wanted to tell you that, as you know, Shelton doesn't get back until next Thursday night.

Thursday, yeah.

And so we're going to meet during Friday and get through a report, and I'll have you.

And so when he gets back, I plan to report to you, too.

Okay.

And so if you let me know we're going to meet Friday, I'll have you come.

Good.

Now, with regard to the thing I wanted to say to you, that as far as the tax thing is concerned, I .

We would be ready to deal with it.

I don't want you to think there's any motive .

Because we've got, I think we've got .

We've got a two or three as a result of your conversation, two or three.

I told you we were going to go ahead on the parochial, that we were going to go ahead on the property tax.

I remember you raised the point of the minimum tax.

Well, I'm having to work on that, because I know that that's a problem.

I just, you're welcome to say that they are working on that.

Now, the other point is that the trade that, well, I wonder if it's very much a piece of, the trade that I consider linked effectively to what George has now, we've got to negotiate abroad.

In other words, we don't follow up with trade fast or as quickly as we can.

then the monetary is not going to have the substance behind it and the backing that we need.

And so it's very important, if we could, if you could, that we move on the trade legislation so that we don't, I just wanted to declare to you that we're not trying to push off a tax that we want, we want that too, but the trade thing I think is a first priority for us.

This is on tax, right?

Right, that's Easter, right?

Right, in other words, Easter's late this year.

That goes to Easter recess, right?

Montre.

Oh wait, you want it because we're going to tax it, right?

In other words, you would want him to testify on the tax thing on the 30th.

But, yeah, yeah.

I would like to be able to say that what George would do there, but your point is you would like him to testify on taxes on the 30th and then lay it aside and go into credit.

And then your people would work on the tax thing yourself.

Right.

Well, I do say that.

I would say that I consider both very important.

But I consider this urgent because we have to get this because this involves American jobs.

It involves the stability of the dollar.

It involves, you know, balance pens, all those things.

So that's a pretty accurate person, but he's interested in employee jobs.

It involves our jobs.

It involves our...

They don't pay a cost.

I'm sorry.

You got an excuse on that.

Let me know.

We can do something about that.

All right.

Well, I think the world's just getting richer.

That's the problem.

You know, everybody's got the money down there.

It's costing you.

I was looking at the figures for inflation for the other countries.

It's interesting to note that the British are at 7.

We're at 3.7 right now.

The British are at 7.6.

The Germans are at 6.

The Japanese are at 6.

The Irish are at 6.

The French are at 6.

So we're doing better than others, but that is because of the move.

Yeah.

do something that I have not.

I must say, I would probably be less than that.

I'm not clear.

I don't have any opinion.

Right.

I see.

All right.

I'll let you know when he gets back.

Right.

Now, one other thing.

I want to have a bipartisan legislative leader's meeting.

If you would mention this, if you will, whenever you see that the speaker or what I, on trade, but I think what you would notice, would you like to have a bipartisan meeting first or testimony first or which?

In other words, in other words, why don't we say that we will, let me just take a look.

What is the date that you are on?

May, uh, April 30th.

Now this is a, you'd like a bipartisan meeting on Tuesday the 1st.

I was going to say... Yeah.

No, what I was thinking is having a bite.

Yeah, well, you know how hard it is to get anybody around Monday.

Well, I'm going to say if you're around.

Which means that if you each got a testimony, you'd be testifying for your committee on Tuesday.

Yeah, so you'd rather have a bite or a heart attack?

Well, I'll tell you, if we do a bite or a heart attack, we'll go to Dave Long in the morning.

Yeah.

OK, sounds all right to me.

I don't know what to do.

I don't have to get you prepared with the taxes on the 30th and the other person.

Right.

Fine.

OK.

Right.

Well, I've made all the decisions on the territory myself, I guess, but I've told them, you know, to get on the wall, I guess.

That's a little hard.

But listen, we all know what a lot of this has got to do with the , but we've got to do the good things we can do.

We've got to do those.

Right?

And we want to do the good things, the things that really mean something in the way of reform.

Absolutely.

We now, we've got to continue to work with the former as well, but we have to, in terms of the domestic thing, we've got great challenges here.

We want to get the domestic economy.

And also, we can also find out if there's such a

very close relationship between the foreign and the domestic because a strong domestic economy is essential, a strong dollar is essential to try to play the role.

And the right kind of trade policy affects all of our foreign things.

So it's all tied in together.

We can talk all we want about, you know, changing the value of the dollar.

We can talk all we want about the tariffs and the rest.

Unless this economy of ours is productive in America, or is it productive, we're not going to be able to see the rest of the world.

So I think the continuation of our foreign activities is dependent upon some very strong, vigorous actions on the domestic side.

So we can tie it in.

And we can work on that.

OK. Well, you take care.

Don't bend over.

Well, I think that this would be very disarming also for Irvin to break.

You know, he came down here and had a little fight with you.

I'll tell you, for example, something that came back on, was said back through the Attorney General, and the Attorney General wanted to talk to you about this.

I don't know if it's necessary or not.

Baker said that Ray is with Clint Easton.

They're privately the answer.

He met with both Irvin and Baker.

He said, I want to talk to you.

about this 68 bugging incident, which the president mentioned to me when I met him.

It was Baker speaking, and Kleine.

And Kleine said, well, he said, I want to talk to you about that also, because Kleine obviously knows that deloach is involved.

Kleine and deloach are good friends.

Well, he, I don't know whether he had to buy a plate of gold or not.

He probably didn't sell it here.

He wants George to testify on the way to the recess on the 19th.

He'd like George to testify on taxes on the 30th.

Taxes?

That's the problem.

George is supposed to be ready, and I just sit down and have a bad day out there.

So, George, good night.

Then he says he will then set aside, he will announce on the 19th that because the president has indicated that the trade is so urgent, he will set aside the tax hearing after George testifies.

So he gets that out there.

And the following day, Tuesday, he will have the trade legislation brought in before we even meet.

And I suggested that that team, if I came to buy parts of it, he suggested that it be in the afternoon of Monday.

Which might not give that idea a resolution point, but you know, they have to go back and protest the money.

So, uh, we could do that more if I told him he could have it at 8 o'clock in the morning.

In other words, have it at 8 o'clock.

Uh-huh.

He must wait clear to the 30th, though?

Always the 30th, yeah.

Because our idea is to set it by varsity.

We set the legislation up on the 10th.

10th of what?

8th of what?

That's fine.

He's looking into the first.

He wants to buy a part of the meeting when the legislation goes up.

So he's asking for legislation so the boys are going to have to be ready on the first.

The first of April?

First of May.

Yeah.

But we would extend the legislation up to 10th of April so that he would have it for three weeks before, two weeks before he

three weeks before you start considering it.

I'll get back to you, but then I'll tackle that.

Well, last night, yesterday, I had mentioned that today was the first of May, and it may be that we want the 26th.

Okay.

It's also a little later than it ought to be.

No, April 30th is what we were shooting on, for the walk.

For Ian to start his errands, that's what he said.

Well, then he wants the bike park as a gate again.

That's fine.

That's easier for him to start.

It does put him on time.

Right.

But George has to be prepared for when his taxi pulls on the 30th.

Okay.

So what we really believe is that we all have a bike park, but we won't have a bike park if we meet him again.

The long and short of what I was going to say, Doug, I think that Klein needs to, like, turn Baker off a little bit on the 1968 thing, and Baker wants to get some more facts on it.

So it's kind of a hiatus right there, and I don't know if Baker will go forward unless Klein needs to make it something to produce, and I don't know if Klein has anything to produce.

The question is now, what about Sullivan?

Yeah, Sullivan is committed to have me, have prepared for me in his own typewritten product, his list of all the oracles that he has been able to recollect.

I want that to restart.

I think so.

It needed very much.

Now, you were saying to...

It's not really where this thing leads, I mean, in terms of the vulnerabilities and so forth.

In your view, the vulnerabilities are basically Echo, Colson, Baltimore, and directly, it must be directly.

And, of course, the second of those, as far as the White House is concerned, Cheney.

Right?

And I think he would agree.

Why?

Well, because I've been all over this thing like a blanket.

I know, I know, but you know all about it, but you didn't.

You were in it after the deed was done.

That's correct.

I have no corn on it.

Here's the whole point.

I invited your problem, and I hope you have a problem.

All the others that are participating in the God of Madness, and therefore are potentially subject to criminal liability, you're not.

And on that score, of course, we have to know where we are.

And on that, everybody...

I understand.

He knows that some people would call him a nose, and he knows other people would ghost him.

Well, Kev is a good man, but if Kev ever sees himself sinking,

he will reach out to grab everybody he can get hold of.

Yes.

And I think the unfortunate thing in this whole thing is Jeff is the most responsible man for the whole incident.

Well, let me tell you, when the Congress, after it happened, on Monday, I didn't think we were going to put the pieces together, what had occurred.

I got a little late, and I said, Gordon, I want to know who in the White House is involved in this.

And he said, John, nobody was involved or had knowledge that I know of that we were going in for the life with one exception and it was a lower level person, John Jones.

He said, I don't really know how much he knew.

And I said, well, why in the hell did this happen?

No, that's what a few stories.

No.

So maybe that must have come from here.

That's, uh...

I think what happened is...

I can't believe... No, I don't think it happened.

No, I think it's gone.

Because John just had it on his ticker, you know, we're supposed to be having a couple minutes and talking to Jeff and saying, what, where is it?

Why isn't it coming in, Jeff?

They're worried about it.

They're worried about it because I haven't had the sanity of the demonstrations.

I can't share it.

I guess everybody around here except me is worried about it.

Well, I don't know.

I don't know.

So that's how they, how Magruder puts the heat on somebody else.

Why did, the way you see things, as I understand it, is that possibly you're unraveling that Sloan, Sloan starts fizzing on Magruder, and Magruder starts fizzing on who, even home?

No, no, it's, it's, it's, I don't, I don't need it.

If somebody out of here were to start saying, or say, all right, you're going to take the heat on this one.

I don't want to hear someone say that.

No.

You can't do that.

No.

I think what you've got to do, except you can't, John, is to cut it off in the past.

And you cut it off in the past, plenty of this bunch just did this part of their job.

They were out on the work.

They went beyond any assignment they ever had.

Now, on the segreting thing, I think you've just got to change that a little bit.

You've got to get the connection on it.

I think we're tired, and that's that, and come up with a lot of people.

I just think about segreting.

No matter how bad it is, it's an early expense.

People think it was.

It has to be a concept.

I don't think it should.

The intent when Segretti was hired was nothing evil, nothing vicious, nothing bad, nothing not espionage, not sabotage.

It was pranksterism that got out of hand.

And we don't know that.

And I think we can lay our story out there.

I have no problem with the Segretti thing.

It's just not that serious.

The other potential problem is Ehrlichman.

And that is connection with Hunt and Lady Boat.

They worked for him.

They, these guys had to be some idiots, as we've learned after the fact.

They went out and went into Dr. Ellsberg's doctor's office.

And they had, they were geared up with all the CIA equipment, cameras and the like.

They turned the stuff back in to the CIA at some point in time and left film.

in the camera.

The CIA has not put this together, and they don't know what it all means right now, but it wouldn't take a very sharp investigator very long because you've got pictures in the CIA's files that they had to turn over.

They were trying to, this was a part of an operation that connected the Poundown Papers.

They were, the whole thing, they wanted to get Ellsberg's psychiatric records.

For some reason.

I don't know.

That's right.

Jesus Christ.

Well, anyway, it was under an Ehrlichman structure.

Maybe John didn't ever know.

I've never asked him if he knew.

I didn't want to know.

Here's the way he's waiting to come up.

in the cia's files which they which the committee's asking for and the material i turned over to the department of justice there are all the materials waiting to hunt in there are these pictures which the cia developed and they've got cordon lady standing proud of punch outside this doctor's office with his name on it and this is material again it's not going to take very long for an investigator to go back and say why would this somebody be this doctor's office and they'd find out that there was a break in that doctor's office

Then you find Liddy on the staff and then you start working it back.

I don't think they'll ever reach that point.

This is where, this is wrong.

They're wrong.

It's irrelevant, right.

That's why, that's where, that's where, where Ernie, you mean, was wrong.

What the hell is this got to do with it?

It has nothing.

There's, there's a lot of these things that they could stumble along into.

Uh, it was all the cars posted on the ground and it was working, that's all.

He had some red wig on and funny glasses and went out and interviewed her.

But that's nothing.

There's nothing there.

He didn't do anything illegal there.

And the other thing that could come up that will relate to John and could relate to me also, it's not illegal.

In fact, it's kind of interesting if it ever occurred.

Right after Chappaquiddick, John had a man dispatched up there, this New York City detective.

Oh, I heard about that.

John Chappaquiddick.

Two years he was on this thing.

And he knows more about how Teddy Kennedy lied his way through that and closed that down than any living human being.

And he was paid by Combox.

Combox's bank records indicate these payments.

If they find those records.

Well, hopefully, hopefully we, uh, you know, some of those would be privileged.

In fact, why would you not sign?

Why would you not sign?

Well, I think that's the problem.

It's probably important that we go through this and, uh, I think we've got to make some move.

Some move.

So if you, uh, can't, before this all begins, begins to come out,

So we know that's the basis of my statement.

I will do it.

You guys, I know you want to line it up.

Yes, sir.

That's good.

This one mistake is much better to try that, rather than giving the saver what I need.

That's right.

I think he needs an ounce for our saver from H1.

Right.

And I can find nothing in the FBI.

I don't have any other savers.

Well, we have very important comments, which he had admitted then, then, about Sprague.

I don't think he should fart around about it again.

You know, you've got to give him a chance on me.

So give it to him.

And then I'll hurt him.

I don't want to hurt you.

It's just a matter of, you know, damage that's going to be done.

Sorry to interrupt you, but you've got a remedy for a coming truck.

All right.

Go run that by more.

Y'all can take a look.

I'm sorry.

He said, well, he really had to leave the factory.

He made it four o'clock, and he wanted to protect his left flank, and that was when he didn't see Preston.

He talked to Preston, and also saw Grant.

Grant decided not to see Bob, and now Joe didn't talk to him, and so forth and so on.

And when he saw this, he said he wanted to get back on the other side.

And then he...

So I think we all went through that at the time, moving back and forth.

It's really a shame that we would take on a man who probably is his.

If anybody was like a rock in that group, it was just like a rock.

But Henry, Henry knows that.

He knows her.

He lashed out at her because he's done it before.

He's had to lash out at someone because he's got to go somewhere now.

And I think Alex, he lashed out at you about parking the airplane in the wrong place.

At least, my concern is definitely about, uh, what we're talking about in June, so it's, uh, my concern about the vote on this is really what it does in terms of, you know, thoughts and thoughts, where it does help, uh, this one, people need to work on it, and, I mean, that sort of thing, and, uh, the main reason why it doesn't work, uh, and that's really wrong,

And also, Henry has got to be terribly stupid to figure.

Every press man in this town and every politician in this town who's got any brains knows that the man who receives an excellent praise in the book is the man who is the leader.

Sure.

Henry can't back up.

He can't say, I didn't tell him.

There's enough direct quotes in it, Henry,

And it clearly puts in, he does it over and over that the president was on top of it, that Henry

He builds Henry as the skillful operative that enables you to carry out your grand design.

He builds it as a team.

But he puts you clearly as the head of the team.

He doesn't charge you with any cases in any way, you or I.

And you know, I was thinking on this.

If you don't know, I guess what you come up with is that the lead backs don't really amount.

They don't do a hell of a lot.

They press things.

probably doesn't stage our age at times, or at least doesn't lose any at times.

But this one, we have nothing else to keep you up front in the press, and it's pretty good to sort of ensure the public can turn around.

The presidential speech, provided it's tied into significant actions, also has a personal importance in every event, which is every whether or not

I mean, one thing to run against should have been done that way.

It didn't run out hardly.

I mean, they're running heavily, which is a great issue.

I mean, like, a lot of this is something like, actually, you could go on the press, you could go to Chicago and use the sewer plant and all the rest of it, and they can get answers.

That's really what it came down to.

Which bears out the point that I know that, as opposed to some of the reactions you're going to hear,

I think that the attempt to govern something running against you just to divert attention is so blatant that it usually does not work and it doesn't have an effect on people.

I know John has a disagreeable on this point.

It's fine with Jack for being a fellow there.

I'm fine with being around this guy.

You know, it's not, it won't work well if you can't do what you can.

You've got to get it.

You've got to get it to the

something that will override, but you cannot do a stunt and expect it to have any effect.

It might have been the opposite effect, the stunt, if you were not addressing the issue that is really concerning people.

Did you agree with that?

Yeah.

Plus the stunt has the potential of .

Which is the back part of the potential.

How much on the trip has the potential to backfire?

But it has the potential of enormous , plus the fact that it was something that had to be done.

But forgetting that, just looking at it as PR aspects or the aid decision or whatever, but the stun doesn't have any offsetting major gain to the backfire potential.

You can't .

We've been lucky.

It could have been worse.

Somebody could have pulled an incident on it.

The whole thing would have been, would have been a sour story.

So it was like the time that it wasn't that stunned so much.

But when you were giving those youth awards, what was it?

Youth awards to somebody, and that little girl said, why don't you start killing people in Vietnam, or whatever it was.

That was the whole story.

Or we had...

the center here, and then they're open, pull the sign out, and it progresses.

That becomes historic.

There's no potential good out there in the center.

I mean, whatever those people are doing, they're in great common.

Great loyal guy, but what does he need from having nothing?

Well, we had him after dinner, and he came out about the same thing.

Now, you run a risk tonight.

I don't know what will happen with this thing.

But I think it will be doing good, I think.

He says he won't do any television specials because he said he was doing one on a television show for Ed Sullivan or something like that.

And he says these 30 bags came running out and told me to lay my arms up at that while I was singing.

And I'll meet you guys at 12, 2000.

He's kind of an interesting guy.

You know, he'll pull a Super Patriotism tonight.

I'm sorry.

He did not like that.

So the decision I made is to have some addressable like a little bit of leadership.

Whether the press like it or not makes no difference.

Well, you got a good tie in with him, too.

He makes the point.

He hits America harder than the fact that, to me, the problem with the kids is that they don't work.

They don't have to work hard enough, and they have never not had freedom.

And he spent a lot of time in jail and got converted while he was in jail and went straight.

And as he says, he's a positive product of our prison system.

But he feels he has to work hard.

His family broke.

He went through all the tribulations and all of that.

He refused to take welfare.

His mother wouldn't take welfare.

His father died.

And he supported himself, and then he started stealing as a young kid, and then got thrown in jail.

But the solitary kid, he screwed up, got thrown in jail, and saw the light.

When it started getting dark, with regard to the white, I wonder if it might be...

Does anybody have a headline recently?

I'll tell you, I got this, uh...

I had two hours and then I shared this one.

He must be pretty tight because he's going to be on the stand side so high.

You know, everybody's seeing it.

The problem with our, I guess our people, Bob Seed, these assholes, it's awful hard to get them to use the stuff that our people say is positive.

Bob, Bob, Bob said he, he, he talks like a mother.

He speaks to you about how much he'll use, you never know.

But he at least absorbs some of it, which is hard to get anybody else to do.

But we've gone the way that we're in the Frontiers of Science group.

I've got to go back to my category where I get .

Do you know what that is?

Yeah.

It's a high school program in Oklahoma that Bellman and Jarman are bringing in.

They are super pro-U.

Are they sure?

Oh, yeah.

OK.

Absolutely.

And it's a self-help type thing.

They're not scientists.

It's not .

One of the, I think, I don't know whether Kevin's just trying to aim solely at people that are already in the background.

No, but he's trying to get enough visibility for Evers and Caldwell, Butler.

God damn it, we don't have Evers and Butler on time.

But he's trying to send some signals.

He's trying to be sure that enough good guys get in that it's, that when you, so that he can't, uh, uh, swing their hand.

without it looking like you're ignoring your friends.

Another thing I wanted to tell you that I invited you to talk to George Bush.

I'm going to do this whole potato thing because the heat is on.

But I'm going to have to come on George in the future.

It wasn't his fault that he wanted to keep me out of this.

That's right.

I have guns.

Stay out of these gunfights.

I have these party fights.

I'm not going to talk to anybody in California about benching or anything.

And I, you know, I had, I gave, it's all rock and roll.

I shouldn't, I, I mean, it's not my business what the hell he's doing in New York about the mayor.

Right.

I want him to do the politics and to keep the hell out of here without his people coming, his government overcoming it and organising it.

He wants to, and is prepared to, and was surprised that you're .

Yeah, but he was perfectly prepared not to have you do the tape on that.

All right, let's set it up on the .

John Beals is the counselor .

I think that the counselor thing is fine, but I think that we can add .

I thought he was going to add on this one, actually Armstrong.

I put Armstrong in the cabinet.

I put Armstrong in the GOP leadership.

I just kind of contributed about that.

There's no reason for putting her in this one, I think.

Okay.

What I meant is, you know, the idea of the staff meeting, I think we can look at the counselor thing as a way to kill a group of birds on the stone.

Okay.

Now, so that, who does it add?

All it adds is him.

Well, he's there anyway.

He's there anyway.

If you don't have him anyway, you're going to be there.

Who else is on the senior staff?

Ash.

Ash is going to be Ash.

I want Ash there anyway.

The line doesn't fit in.

No.

You don't want to climb there.

No.

Oh, God, no.

I mean, you know who's senior staff is, Timmons or Taylor.

They're not involved.

Well, Timmons doesn't contribute to meetings.

You know, you've got to tell Timmons what to do, pretty much.

I see no reason why Timmons can't sit in.

being exposed to such a meeting is always helpful, you know, for him to know what the hell's going on.

What I'm getting at is this.

Why not make the counselor say, John's got to go through the training role with the counselors because we set them up, you know.

But they really turn out to be, they're interesting, but they really turn out to be bull sessions.

We don't care if everybody's excited.

And a bull session serves the purpose.

See?

So why don't we have them and have them?

And it should be in August.

I think John should be in August.

I think you should be in August.

That's it.

And we've covered it, haven't we?

Aaron's home should always be in August.

That's not a bad idea.

Well, I think we'll do it.

I guess I, I thought this week, this, uh,

I've got to take a decision sometimes like this.

If you realize I've got to keep trying to do it, yeah.

This weekend.

but you know, good idea.

And we'd have two weeks in a row or something.

And we won't have it for a couple of weeks, right?

Yeah.

That'd be three weeks.

Well, unless you get the by-parts to that problem, that's different.

It's different.

So you would be here now on the streets for two weeks.

Yeah, same.

I'd be there.

I'd be happy.

You start to keep, if you will, keep people over this whole amount.

I mean, you've studied it up, this whole schedule.

And I would rather have, I'd rather have you rather than Parker or Irving or anybody else make the recommendations to events.

The reason is that they will, I mean, I, John will say go out and go out with your clericals or if Parker will say, well, why don't you go to the MWB to have a disabled or something.

But the event thing, you know what will work and what won't work.

They're pretty long, and you have an idea.

But maybe this time we ought to be doing a speech, so I'm going to prepare.

Maybe we ought to be preparing for a press conference.

Right?

And also, you'll have the responsibility to keep up with the times.

We're starting to have two baseballs.

We're here.

Well, I tell you, you can do the, you know, the one-league whole thing.

Actually, Pittsburgh is, the whole thing is Cincinnati.

Then the, I don't know about baseball, the American League is...

is one on that day in America, and the National League is the other.

And the National League one is in California, or the American League, whichever one it is.

I don't know which league is which.

But you could do a baseball over there.

And that would be the American League.

Is that the American League?

OK. Is Pittsburgh the National League?

the National League Openers at Pittsburgh and the American League Openers at Anaheim.

But the pre-opening game, it used to be the Senators game.

Because that's where baseball is starting, whatever it is.

And it's the day before.

Friday the 6th, I believe, same day as the Pittsburgh game.

And they'd like to have you go up to that .

They're going to have Jenkins do the first ball at Cincinnati on Thursday.

They want to do a POW thing at Manali also.

OK. OK. Scott?

Wrong name.

Denton.

I got you.

Yes.

The other thing is what if you want to do a Mrs. Clemente thing by having her come out just before the annual transition rather than doing it in Pittsburgh.

And said no.

Let me check out the .

came back with a question of what did he want you to do.

Pretty sure.

And we all hit it now.

I mean, we all have got a pretty good, I don't want to say three, but a pretty safe perception of what you mean.

Yes, sir.

Thanks.

It's much better than doing a doctor's aid in L.A. You know, it relaxes.

Now I get more of a, more of that thing.

I like, you know, it's here now.

Your hometown and all that.

I'd have to throw the ball around, I think, even though they didn't deal with anything like this.

And if, wouldn't that, you know, I'll say, well, I don't want to be careful, or if Parker will say, well, I mean, there's the MWB that has a disabled or something.

But the event thing, you know what a word, what a word, pretty much, if you have an idea, a word like that, well, maybe this time we ought to be doing a speech, and so I'm going to prepare.

Maybe we ought to be preparing for a press conference, or...

Right.

And also, you'll have the responsibility to keep on .

We're here to teach you.

Well, I tell you, you can do the, you know, the one-league whole thing.

Actually, Pittsburgh is, the whole big thing is Cincinnati.

Then the, I don't know about baseball, but the American League is,

is one on that day of the National League is the other.

The National League one is in California, or the American League, whichever one it is.

I don't know which league is which.

But you could do a baseball over there.

And that would be the American League.

Is that the American League?

OK. Is Pittsburgh the National League?

the National League Openers at Pittsburgh and the American League Openers at Anaheim.

But the pre-opening game, it used to be the Senators game, because that's where baseball started.

It's the day before.

Friday the 6th, I believe, same day as the Pittsburgh game.

And they'd like to have you go up to that .

They're going to have Jenkins do the first ball at Cincinnati on Thursday.

They want to do a POW thing at Manali also.

OK. OK. You got it?

Wrong name.

Denny.

You got it, Denny.

We got you.

Yes.

The other thing is, what if you want to do a Mrs. Clementi thing by having her come out just before the annual transition?

Rather than doing it in Pittsburgh, you know, instead of, you know, .

Let me check out the .

came back with a question of what did he want you to do.

Pretty certain.

We all get it now.

I mean, we all have got a pretty good, I don't want to use the phrase, but a pretty safe perception of shooting.

Yes, sir.

Thanks.

It's much better than doing Dr. Xavier in L.A.

He had all the blacks.

Now he has more of a, more of that thing.

I like, you know, here in hometown and all that.

I'd have to throw the ball around by one, I think, even though they didn't deal with it.

And they wouldn't necessarily do the P.O.W.

for the ball, and why there's some tribute to P.O.W.

is just not made up.

And then you can also wipe those in terms, you know, of what we were talking about.

Yeah.

And sort of make a list.

Is that the way to do those?

which you can't do it live next week.

Right.

Sometimes I don't.

It's reductive in the sense that it just gives you something in broad, in great thinking.

I got a lot of that from reading the new summaries.

We can't read it in that sort of place, but that's it.

Yeah, I'm speaking out of the CEA.

Let's go.

And that's small enough that the whole, you don't have to talk to the woman next to you, you talk to the whole other woman you have, all the times you've ever had anything with wives, that's small enough.

And you can ignore the wives, let them sit, let them sit, let them sit, let them sit, let them sit, let them sit, let them sit, let them sit, let them sit, let them sit, let them sit,

Jesus Christ believed me to be a Lutheran or whatever I had to sit there.

Round table.

I had a round table with, uh, with Wyatt on the other side.

I forgot the name of Jesus Christ.

I don't believe him.

But he, in terms of, by the way, that topic is told, and they don't have to be talking about it.

They're going to be in there.

And so you've got to sit there and settle it a bit.

Now the, uh, and I had to sit in my ear there.

It's a little different.

Boy, I don't know.

Whenever we do these roundtables, I'm very, very used to them all the time.

Oh, each one of them is getting louder and louder.

And I've got somebody to talk to that's at least worth talking to.

Shelter here.

He had it.

Judge me here.

I need it for a year.

I'll sit right after the election.

You also have it that we down in these terms.

We're not going to get any more interviews with folks.

They're going to go in white and all the rest is cracked up.

You also have it that we down in these terms.

We're not going to give any more interviews with folks or anyone white and all the rest.

The only other one that I think we've got to think about, and I want to go through a lot of stuff on it, is to what we do do is sabotage.

That's the one that's going to do us the most good.

It's cracked up.

The only other one...

We've got to think about it.

I want to go through a lot of stuff.

As to what we do do as staff members.

That'll do well.

I just can't sit with Bill.

He doesn't know what he wants.

He's got to be kept for something later.

If it's ever going to be used, John, but what do we need from keeping it for later on the stuff that we want out?

We have.

We've given them a lot of stuff.

The questions are really how much.

If it's ever going to be used, John, but what do we need from keeping it for later on the stuff

We've given him a lot of stuff.

The questions are really how much you want us to give him.

He's putting together a dossier for me of stuff.

I'm a question of what kinds of stuff we want to give him in terms of original material.

There's some real advantage to doing it.

I mean, he's trying to develop, for instance, the Churchillian comparison of some of the stuff that, some of the notes you want us to give him.

He's putting together a dossier for me of stuff I'm looking at the dossier on the question of what kinds of stuff we want to give him in terms of original material and stuff like that.

But there's some real advantage to doing.

I mean, he's trying to develop, for instance, the Churchillian comparison of some of the stuff that Churchill wrote versus some of the notes that you write on the size of Newstown.

But it's not the PR type.

That's where you hit a solid point in an effective way.

I think he can lay a lot of mythology far away than some of the notes Churchill wrote versus some of the notes that you write on the size of Newstown.

But it's not the PR type.

That's where you hit a solid point in an effective way.

He can lay a lot of mythology far away.

It's good that we gain nothing from keeping out of his hands.

Let him do us some good.

At this point, if he sold this book, he's going to...

I don't mind.

I don't mind either.

I just think they'll add weight.

You see what I mean?

The main part of the city, maybe.

is for somebody that has known me in the state.

That's how Bill knows everybody.

And so now that we gain nothing from keeping out of his hands,

This one, he sold this book, he said, I don't want, I don't want you guys seeing this.

I just think it's what they'll learn.

They'll add ways.

This is what it means.

The main point of seeing me is for somebody that doesn't know me to see me.

That's right.

Goddamn it.

Henry and you and early on, they're telling almost everything Bill needs to know.

That's right.

So he has a lot of contact with you.

I'm sorry.

No, he's kind of the controlling of it.

That's right.

But I agree.

See, that's the routine.

So I would think that really... Bill knows everybody around here.

God damn it.

Henry and you and Erling, they're telling almost everything Bill needs to know.

That's right.

I'm sorry.

No, he's kind of the control of it.

That's right.

But I agree.

See, that's the routine.

So I would think that really...

That's the only other one.

Because none of the others are going to have any effect anymore.

His will is simply because it's in his heart.

You know what we say.

And he's totally...

He was anything we wanted to do.

And we gave nothing now.

And he doesn't know God being God.

Because none of the others are going to have any effect anymore.

His will is simply because it's in his hands.

You know what we say.

And he's totally checking everything.

He was anything we wanted to do.

And we got it.

I'm giving an analysis on it, but I can't do anything for the next two weeks.

You have to have it the next week.

I don't know.

And all the others, though, on the interviews and so forth, I'm convinced based on, you know, seeing all the noise and so forth, that it's not worth it.

I'm going to give you an analysis on it, but I can't do anything for the next few weeks.

I don't know.

And all the others, though, on the interviews and so forth, I'm convinced, based on what I've seen, all the voices and so forth, that it is not just one of those things.

It's not useful.

We've been around that track before.

I think that's all about it.

This stuff, the rest of us have got to handle better than we can.

It's just like, for example, I say I'm not going to do the domestic council all the time.

We've got to get the council to find out.

It's a waste of time.

The council is getting to agree on this.

Take care of them at the same time.

Get their trust with you.

It's just one of those things.

I've been around that track before.

All of that is stuff the rest of us have got to handle better than we can.

It's just like, for example, I say I'm not going to leave a message to the council all the time.

We've got to get the council to find out how much waste time the council is getting to agree on this.

Get their trust with them.

I couldn't help him on that.

Whatever he wants to do today.

Whatever he's doing.

Currently not.

I don't think it will.

I don't think he will hold back.

I've talked to him too often.

He'll get another mouthful.

You know, he's our trading hand.

I don't think it will.

I don't think he will hold back.

You know, he starts raising it.

See that you are not creating a level sequence of constructions.

You know that?

Yeah.

Even though we've done it a lot, we don't get enough of it.

He said he would not create any of that in the sequence of the problem before it shows.

Even though he did not like it.

That's what he's saying.

If you get what you call planning any way, I just don't think it's really worth my getting involved and getting tied in the mills at this point, regardless of what he says.

But he feels so.

And I, uh, I don't know if you've got a...

I'd just like to have a, have a run at it before we shoot the big guy.

I'm calling him, Bob.

Why didn't I call him in Arkansas before?

I called him.

There's just so much you can do on this certain thing, right?

I think so.

Okay.

If you'll get it, why don't you go flying and I'll see you later.

Anyway, I just don't think it's really worth my getting involved and getting tied into Nelson at this point, regardless of what he says to me.

But he feels so.

And I don't know if Nelson's got enough.

I'm calling him, Bob.

Why did I call him in Arkansas before?

I'm calling him because there's just so much you can do on this planet.

I think it would be impossible to say it in person to our conversation.

The president's delighted, and he wants to have a bipartisan meeting.

We could just send the Schultz kids back on Thursday.

We'd like to send it to his convenience next week, the week after, and see if he can get a date.

Or you call him and tell him that.

Is that fine?

Yeah.

It's the bike part, and then you've got to close it.

Okay.

On trade, the bike part was meeting on trade.

Trade, right.

And then we had the high party, so forth, and we got it in.

If we could do that, you've got to close it.

Right.

I think that's a little better than my getting on, because you'll get my use of it.

I know I use it on all sorts of things.

Right.

I think what Blanigan could do would be to come home and say that,

First of all, to our conversation, the President's delighted, and he wants to have a bipartisan meeting.

We'd like to send it to his convenience next week, the week after, to see if he can get a date.

Or you call at the time.

Is that right?

Yeah.

This is the bipartisan.

Then you've got it hooked.

Okay.

The bipartisan meeting on credit.

Right.

And then we have the high credit and so forth.

Then we've got it.

And if we could do that, you've got it hooked.

I think that's a little better than mine getting hot, but you'll get my use of it.

I know why you're small.

Okay.

A couple more call things here, whether you want to call me.

and he said, okay, this is his 25th, John McCarthy, and it's his 25th famous Irish parade today.

So he'd be on live in New York until 4.30.

And if you wanted to call him, he'd put you on television.

The Irish in New York.

I think we should have done that.

Irish in New York.

He has conceded to do it.

He's going to be on the press on Sunday.

You've got to call him today if you can to want him before that.

Not very much of an answer.

They think he's going to want them.

They think he may try to want them.

But here's the problem with having, frankly, good ministerial decisions with a congressman and a congresswoman.

We've really got to cut the hell off of some of these men.

This is something where even the early community already had to come.

Shelters were very large and long shelves.

We had a chance to talk to the president.

I take credit for that.

That's a real big deal.

A coup of the highest order.

Last connection.

Judge will be here.

This is for a year.

I'm going to be here this conference and then get on the event for the next conference.

You also have that we down in these terms.

We're not going to get any more interviews with folks or anyone going white, and all the rest is cracked up.

The only other one that I think we've got to think about, and I want to go through a lot of stuff on it, as to what we do do is satires.

the questions are really how much you'll you want us to get these put together

dossier for me of stuff on our, let me look at the dossier, on the question of what kinds of stuff we want to give them in terms of original material and stuff like that, but there's some real advantage to doing.

Me trying to develop, for instance, the Churchillian comparison of some of the stuff that, some of the notes Churchill wrote versus some of the notes that, that you write on, besides the new stuff, but it's not the, the, yeah.

PR type things, but where you hit a solid point in an effective way.

I think he can lay a lot of mythology far away that would do us some good in the stuff now that we gain nothing from keeping out of his hands.

Just like that, he sold his book.

He said, I don't know.

I don't know.

is for somebody that doesn't know me will see me.

That's right.

Bill knows everybody around here.

God damn it.

Henry and you and Erling have been telling almost everything Bill needs to know.

That's right.

I'm sorry.

He's no extent of the control of it.

That's right.

But I see that as a routine.

So I would think that really, again, that's what he feels.

He's sure.

I understand that.

That's the only other one, because I think we gained nothing now from any of those problems being done, because none of the others are going to have any effect anymore.

His will, simply because it was an insight, you know, you know, I don't know what to say.

And he's totally, I mean, checking every road, if there was anything he wanted to do, he got it, he got it, he got it, he got it.

Give me an analysis on it.

But I can't do anything for the next few weeks.

And all the others, though, on the interviews and so forth, I'm convinced, based on what I've seen, it's not worth it.

I mean, it's just one of those things.

I'm used to it.

We've been around that track before.

That's great.

All of that is stuff the rest of us have got to handle better than we can in traffic.

It's just like, for example, I say I'm not going to do a domestic council all the time.

We've got to get the council to find out how much waste time the council is getting through for us.

Get their trust with the emergency.

I don't think it will, I don't think he will hold back.

You know, he's our trading man.

He said that he would not create any of that in the sequence of the problem, which is what it shows.

We have him.

Yeah.

Even though he didn't have it.

I get it.

That's what he's saying.

All right.

Okay.

If you'll get it, why don't you go up there and I'll get it for you.

Anyway, I just want to make it truly worth my getting involved and getting tied into Nelson at this point, regardless of what he says in his name.

But he feels so.

And I know Nelson's got a...

I just want to have a run at it before we do the big job.

I've called him a lot.

Why did I call him in Arkansas before?

I've called him a couple times.

There's just so much you can do on this sort of thing.

I think what Blanigan could do is be at home and say that, and first of all, to our conversation, the president's been lighted, and he wants to have a bipartisan meeting.

We'd like to send them to his convenience next week, the week after, and see if you can get a date.

Or you call at the time.

Is that right?

Yeah.

It's the bipartisan.

Then you've got to vote.

Okay.