Conversation 884-017

Transcript (AI-Generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.

I thought it was to get George in before we were finished, or get a report from him, and have him think for about three days.

That's the after I, uh, whatever I do with myself.

On California, my plan is not to leave on Friday.

I should make it my Friday talk.

I mean, I'm telling you Friday talk.

Yeah.

Priority is about 11 o'clock.

So that means it's 9 p.m. to take care of people is going to be a really exciting one too.

And also there's going to be some leeway for other people who might not understand very well.

We do need to give the category of therapy to the medical team.

You know, isn't it interesting how we go round and round and round about this and this?

How much time is spent on this and on the other?

The way it was cut around in a little circle when we used it back in the day.

It went on for too much time.

They all spent a little time slightly resting in that gut.

They decided it hasn't been good.

It's exactly right.

It's a loser.

So you don't do it.

And sure, we lose it with something.

We don't have the feeling.

But some friends who were friends impressed, impressed with the other guy.

You know, we found, when we did try to help a few friends, I think, with him, I just didn't work with him.

I just didn't work with him.

With a few rare exceptions that were, that did work.

Or, you know, they reacted the other way.

They were, they were worried.

Well, yeah, but it didn't work so much.

Well, no, it did.

It still helped.

But it built them up.

And it got a story that we wanted to get across, across.

And we used a good instrument to do it.

It was better to have a post-game.

I mean, it started to get a problem.

Anyway, getting back to this, I guess we've got to do some analysis of...

Where we are, and it really gets down to this overall thing about scheduling, about where... Congressional people.

I know that if I'm not going to handle the business case, that's one thing that's going to bother me.

If they can't make it now, with what we've done, Bob, do you agree?

If not, yes.

That's why .

The Congress, I think, a lot, maybe we need a Congress.

I feel like the way it was before is whether we just didn't have everybody.

I see my point.

I don't.

I mean, the council has a good idea.

I think maybe we should work on it that way.

I'm not sure, but the whole cabinet just should have sat around here and gassed about these things.

What harm to not any one of those subjects, when I talk to these people about the whole cabinet shooting here?

That's what I meant.

So you got that much time to bring the cabinet in?

Are you ready?

Hey, is this... if we get away with the super cabinet inside of here, which is good.

and you operate a super camera, you bring them all in.

You say, well, we'd like to talk a little today about .

Those subjects that are on the agenda today, he's got to make a whole category out of here.

I mean, we do a .

We've got to be confidential about it.

And they're the thing that's going to come out of this meeting, at least all of today, that wouldn't come out of the cabinet meeting, in my opinion.

So, you see, what I'm doing is sort of coming full circle on the idea that rather than having it, let's have, we have a Mustang to discuss, frankly, discuss it with everybody.

Thank you.

You don't really need to, uh, let's just add everybody in.

You gotta fight with the leaders, right?

You have a better chance to do that with a man on the track than before, because you don't have Opie and Romney.

You don't have a guy going off on their own.

You still got a vice president, which is a problem.

Yes?

I think that comment's true.

Oh.

He's not here.

He really is a loser at this game.

He let it.

But what we've been through there, instead of being a strong right arm, at meetings, at general meetings, he's just a bad loser.

Well, that's a misperception of his role, which is that he thinks he's got to be part of the decision-making apparatus and help you avoid the errors of your ways rather than thinking that he's got to be a part of your dissemination apparatus.

What he needs to be told, and it won't do any good now, I don't think, anyway, is that nobody gives a shit what his opinion is.

then all I want is for I can get off his ass and sell whatever someone else has decided that more, that people more able than he are making the decisions.

People with the responsibility of making the Vice Presidents do not make decisions.

They support the decisions of the Premier.

Period.

Not only do Vice Presidents not make decisions, Vice Presidents don't participate in decisions.

That's the problem we have, correct, is that he's been led to believe by your kindness and the, the,

count time that we've done to him, because we, I mean, in spite of all this shit that we get about the arrogant, domineering White House staff, I mean, that's right, I'll, we overkill, yeah, I run over to that guy's office, I sit on the phone waiting for 10 minutes, you know, for him to come on, and I call him Mr. Vice President, and I stand when he approaches the vicinity and, you know, go through all this crap.

Now, that,

You know, Sherman Adams didn't treat you that way.

Uh-huh.

He was all right.

On a formal basis, yeah.

But, oh, he never, uh, he never, never, Mr. Vice President, he called you a different name.

Right, sure.

And he, uh, called you up and said, I need to talk to you.

And you said, fine, I'll be down at three.

That's right.

And you came.

Jim Carrey versus...

And I wasn't expecting it.

Well, I'm not so sure we're right in the way we're going at it.

I mean, I think it's a little ludicrous.

Your police text was 17 years ago.

Jesus, was it really?

Yeah.

17 years ago.

So I was...

29 years old, when I first met you and was working in the campaign, you were Vice President of the United States.

As a young kid, I called you Dick, not Mr. Vice President.

Private conversations are public.

We've always had questions to each other.

And now here I am, practically the same age as this guy, in a senior position in government.

I can't call him Ted.

That's a little absurd.

Not dismissing your sleep, but because it puts him in a position just to fall asleep.

I don't have to erase this, because I think now is a good time for you and Erwin to grapple with this thing.

And I must say that it lays in attendance, and maybe the answer is to just give the job to Erwin, and leave attendance where it is.

But Erwin must realize that by God,

He's got the responsibility.

We were talking after this meeting here.

He said, maybe I didn't hit hard enough, that the president should not have called those people into his office after the meeting.

That there is a plan set up, and it is set up for them to get guidance the other way.

Now, maybe it doesn't always work as well as it should, but it should not work by them coming in here.

That's one thing.

Bill has never, if you say come in here, Bill is never going to say, no, no, Mr. President, we're taking over there where John would.

If John had been there, he would have said, well, we're going to be meeting over here.

And we'll take care of it.

But I do that John would not raise those questions.

And I do that they have to have answers to.

I do that Watergate is going to be on the line.

I do that IGT was.

I raised those questions and told them the line.

You understand?

Yeah, that is the kind of thing that I think has to be done in the morning so that the guys know that it isn't going to have to stay the kind of thing.

So we get them thinking, because is he going to get that?

Sure.

And I don't much enjoy it, frankly.

But if somebody else doesn't program it, I thought, it's got to be done.

You can't just sit back and say, you can't expect, and you can't, and John can't delegate this and say, well, but they heard signs on the program, heard signs and programmed it.

Well, today, Roy Ash and Rob Ash can start, or George Schultz can, not work yet.

This is basically, this program, I think, can only be done by early people, the people that I go around, you know, who's done enough of the jugular insect and also enough to be understanding.

But I think what he would have to do would be to sit down in the morning.

That's what I mean.

Every day, I think what is needed, Bob, is a PR meeting, not about a man meeting on the substance, whether or not we

Well, there's another, the group, the subject of group makes the problem that we have this super group that was supposed to be for a different purpose.

And then Michelle Sash, you know, and we're playing this game of the five principal assistants, the president just kind of looks at two.

uh and i think we ought to toss early i mean uh ash shells back to the subset meeting where they belong that's right with cobalt that's right and we're gonna work on that and john and i should sit down with the guys we've got to get the after thing across and go that we need john there because we need i can't do that but we can't do that you've got to be there for you know you can look at a lot of quite a different

You know what I mean, that's what you need.

I don't know whether they're, I mean, I hope Berean is as good as everybody else tells me he is.

He may, but I, you gotta say that there's a John in there.

That's what it, maybe more.

No, not in that, no.

More is especially, you bring more in.

Some people don't.

That's right.

But look around.

You find there's got to be a fast moving group.

You've got to hold this group in.

You have a fast moving group.

That's right.

I've been barred from a fast moving group.

I've done it.

I understand that.

Because he's doing good.

But he's... You've got to deal with him in a different way.

Maybe that's the way to go about it.

You...

That's one of the places where we miss Jalen.

Jalen was always good at getting the stuff out of the people like the Moore's and the Tex McCrary's.

It just wastes a hell of a lot of time.

He talked to, oh yeah, can Parker do it or who's... Young Parker can and he's learned.

He is as good as Dwight, partly because he has worked with Dwight and been through the...

balance to do what they're trying to do.

Yeah, he does.

Buchanan's pretty good.

He used to be Buchanan, absolutely.

And I would think Irvin, all that bunch over there, some of those guys could do it.

There may be good listeners if you have any that I've covered, but you need a PR group.

Look, you know the easiest thing to do, even though it takes a lot of work,

The easiest thing to do is to write the NIMS summary and give it to TV to read as to what the problem areas are.

Sure.

That's the easiest thing.

Everybody loves to do it.

The hardest thing to do is to read the NIMS summary and say, well, these problem areas, now what the hell are we going to do on our side?

That's why you Republicans lose elections.

Now, the point is that the current is that here, we've got a situation where, as I say, that comes in and propagates and all the difference.

90% of the time, we just beat the obvious over there.

Everybody knows balls.

The question is, what should we concentrate on?

What should we concentrate on?

And you see, Ziegler has to spend all his time, frankly, when I prepare for press conference, I usually prepare myself really to answer all the thinking questions, and I get prepared so that I can continue.

But what I add to that reading book, and what I add to each conference,

It doesn't come out of it.

It should.

What I had to is my own feeling as to a line or two, maybe a phrase, or maybe a direction, which they always suggest.

You know, now you get the sense of this is a place where Sapphire always bombs up, and his lines are useless.

I mean, Sigler says we don't have that positive guy, I guess, who could take a hell of a height of that.

That's my thought.

But I'm just thinking of Sigler.

When he goes out every day, Sigler should make one of our points.

Our points.

Herbert, when he goes out, should make one of our points.

I think John will.

But I think we can always just be thinking in those terms now.

Here are all the dirty questions I have.

The whole, their game really is to keep us on the defensive end.

Comment on their questions.

Play in their head of the field.

Our game is to comment on our questions.

I think John

As he moves around, as he gets farther and farther, we'll realize, frankly, the uselessness, let me say it frankly, the uselessness of seeing the high school kids, fine line, and the intellectual stress.

Although he's got to do it as he likes to relax.

But the other thing he's going to see, he's going to see that it isn't a proper good use of his time to spend any time on substance if somebody else has spent the time on substance.

Even though they won't vote for it as well.

Cole, anything he can do in such a way as to push it down to the others.

And, uh, and frankly, I would use, I'd let, if Cole better picks anything, give Ash a lot of responsibility.

Ash has got, got that good judgment.

Yeah.

And he'll follow through.

He'll do it damn well.

And, uh...

You can raise it to John, if you would, the idea of what an admirable captain to the counselors.

You know, or you could, you know, you might just say, why not?

John's answer will be what it is.

It's a good session.

A couple of weeks ago, last week, they sat around and talked and everybody enjoyed it and so forth.

Nothing happens.

I mean, it's good because people need to.

But the question is whether we can't use that same presidential, if I've got to get people to stir up, why not stir up more?

Have more of them have a feeling.

I've accepted my preferred response.

Well, that's a compliment.

You may have one.

I must say, for John, it was very quick decision.

He shouldn't have bothered to get him.

He was still the driver.

He said, sure, I won't be dreading reading it.

And now, we're talking about his treatment.

Well, it would be better if I wanted it.

Yeah.

You know, for the traveling tracks, yeah.

But the point is that we might have kept him in the home.

We may or may not defend him.

I want George to come back and just give me a hug.

It's true.

It isn't that bad.

And John, I can just let you say this.

Whether it's with me or another one in our shop,

Don't beat the poor bastards to death where they say, look, now you've got a problem.

Now George has got a problem.

He reaches for us.

We don't tell him he's got a problem.

We say, well, don't go.

What do you have to do?

You can do a great job.

I said, that's what we're going to do.

That works pretty well.

We've done it.

There's the automatic reaction.

It really is.

And it's fascinating to watch the lack of cannibalism and the struggle.

Oh, I don't mean the cannibalism.

That's a good thing.

It has to do with you, because I'm surprised we've got a serious problem here.

Congress isn't .

That's the danger, is that Dan Bolivar can tell somebody something he's so painfully aware of already.

And that's .

Then it's how do we .

And it's tough and true.

And if we are going to do it that way, we're not going to worry about it.

And we're going to defend it.

We have no reason to say, well, .

the business man what they want now what they want which we've got to realize is something that's pretty goddamn cheap

They don't want to fight you.

They want us to .

That's right.

They want you to put up .

That's exactly right.

That's what they're bitching about.

They're not bitching about all this.

Oh, that's my .

That's why I'm just loving .

Every time we can say to the community, we're going to do it.

And it doesn't really hurt the child so much.

That's why the environment, not for those of us who have stopped down all the while because those restrictions that we, that the auto companies are going to go broke.

They're going to go broke, but they're going to have a hell of a time.

Don't you agree, Sharon?

Both the environment restrictions and the safety restrictions are ridiculous anyway.

They put the stuff on the distance.

Hell.

I agree.

In the long haul, they're right on the environment thing.

You've got to get the cars down to where they are.

Because you can't let things get like they are in L.A. everywhere.

You know what it is in the long haul, the safety and so forth.

The safety is this whole shit, whole thing that's brought up in the

O.P.A.

is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is,

going to hell.

Let me ask you, how do you feel about doing it?

Do you agree with what's going to be done?

Do you have some effort to put it down?

Or do you want me to read it every time so I can make it off the reader?

What's the ratio to be done?

I think you should read it, Mr. President.

It's a quick reader.

Oh, no, I'm going to read it.

I'm going to read it.

i think if you want to read it with the critical eye of should or should it not be done and i think that the reason is because we ran a copy five zero about 20 minutes ago and ron read it and said well how about the answers to this question that question this question that question except your document right here while it is responsive as far as we're concerned it's going to raise as many questions as it answers and can you answer all those questions and of course once you answer another set

But each one of these does suggest an answer from an urban saying, this is exactly why we want him here to cross-examine him, because I want some more facts about what he says.

Well, it needs one more go around.

We did the best we could at the time.

And if we can solve a couple of the eight paragraphs here, I think there are about three that trouble some of you who can agree on how far we can go.

For example, that's a great question, Rod and Ray.

The White House cooperated with him.

that during the course of the interview, when he interviewed Liddy, that they discussed Liddy establishing an intelligence operation for the re-election committee.

Yes, sir.

I beg to be objective, I used to knock that out.

I'd just say, in short, my religion was to limit their problems, involve them in manual compliance.

And then I would say, and never at any time, whether there had been any discussions that had anything to do with intelligence-gathering operations on the market or something like that.

I mean, I put it in a general statement rather than your...

During the course of the interview, when he interviewed Liddy, did they discuss Liddy establishing an intelligence operation for the re-election committee?

Yes, sir.

The question had to do with .

Well, it's very possible it did come up.

That's the reason.

I'd like to be in private.

I'm just to knock that out.

Mm-hmm.

I'm just saying, sure, my relationship with you was limited.

There are problems involved.

I can't make more complaints.

And then I would say, and never at any time were there any discussions that had anything to do with intelligence-gathering operations on the market or something like that.

I put it in the general statement rather than your question.

Rather than discuss it with the recruiters, testifying this, I can't recall the conversation.

Never did we just say the general thing.

We never had a discussion that had to do with .

But it's very possible it did come up.

That's the reason.

Well, .

Right.

I understand.

You see what I mean?

The more general, the better.

The margin on the left.

I would suggest for those who prefer political capital hearsay and association.

I would suggest for those who prefer political capital hearsay in the land of independent association, I suspect my candidate would be Barr.

for that rather than getting the facts.

For those of you who want to, for that rather than getting the facts,

That's the question.

They were shown to other counties.

now the question is uh the figure is uh uh that's the extent of it now they would ask did i meet with segretti also

Yes, I did meet Mr. Grady.

How did I meet with him?

He called me.

That's the question.

They were shown to other counsel.

Who put him in touch with me?

Gordon Strong.

Why did Gordon Strong put him in touch with you?

Because Gordon Strong had been called by him to tell me that being interviewed by the FBI, I wanted to know what it was all about.

What did you tell Mr. Grady when you met with him?

I told him that it was when he went before the grand jury to tell the truth.

He was concerned that he had to give up the name of Strone, Chapin, and Kamba.

I told him if I came to that, he had to do that.

Now, they would ask, did I meet with Segretti also?

Yes, I did meet with Segretti.

How did I meet with him?

He called me.

Who put him in touch with me?

Gordon Strone.

Why did Gordon Strone put him in touch with you?

Because Gordon Strone had been called by him to tell me of the being...

I was interviewed by the FBI.

I wanted to know what it was all about.

What did you tell Mr. Segretti when you met him?

I told him that it was when he went before the grand jury to tell the truth.

He was concerned that he had to give up the name of Sloan, Chapin, and Kamba.

I told him if that came to that, he had to do that.

I would summarize that in one sentence.

I said, my only, my only contact was .

I would summarize that in one sentence.

I said, my only, my only contact was .

He called my office to, with regard to his, I directed him as I directed all.

I directed him as I directed all.

I suppose Ron's view is that we have to do it.

I'm more or less convinced you have to do something about this line, I think.

We are.

We said we'd cooperate.

We've explained.

I think it's much better than we did.

I suppose Ron's view is that we have to do it.

I'm more or less convinced you have to do it than wait for them to handle it.

That's right.

And do something about this line, I think.

We are.

We said we'd cooperate.

We've explained.

That's right.

How much heat we can take.

It doesn't matter how much heat we can take.

You'll get yelled at and say, well, Ron, how did you do it?

In other words, in other words, post-right, when I said that, how many other times in this city have I talked to cigarettes?

Now, Ron can say I don't know, but...

then you'll have to respond to those questions that are asked in the press.

Yes, well...

The concern is that Ron has... Irvin will come up with a hundred questions as a result of this letter, and he'll say... Mr. Ryan, why is it that... the last post-race, when I said that, how many other times has Mr. Dean ever talked to the cigarette industry?

Now, Ron can say, I don't know, but...

then you'll have to respond to those questions.

Yes.

The very reason that we can't operate this way.

What are the answers to these questions?

Bing, bing, bing.

The concern is that Ron has, Irvin will come up with

100 questions as a result of this letter.

And he'll say, that's the very reason that we can't operate this way.

What are the answers to these questions?

Bing, bing, bing.

And then when they answer these, how do I know that I won't have more questions?

There aren't too many of those, I believe.

Among these eight.

But it won't take many to teach the approach.

When the press asks Iran,

When the press has a run, the committee will have to go the next day.

The next day.

All right, put it that way.

Well, I have an amazing...

Well, um, I think you have to put it in the state of the law, sir.

I am, I am, I am responding to this letter with questions that have been raised.

I am responding to this letter with questions that have been raised.

In other words,

other questions to raise.

In other words, let them raise them and respond as well as you can.

Better respond this way and let them raise the other questions.

in the gray area.

They seem to have zoomed in on these as the relevant questions.

Irrelevancy in the gray area.

They seem to have zoomed in on these as the relevant questions.

That's legal.

They were still asking questions in the press.

You know, that is a bad life.

But this comes back to the point of how much we, and this, my job before this fight, this week, before the end of the week, to see how

How about we go, at least talk about that chain of questions about it.

Yeah.

And, uh, that's it.

Yeah.

That's it.

Yeah.

You've got to, David's right, you've got to put yourself in a position on the other side, to smartball your edge, or say no, say nah, see what you got.

They were still asking questions of the press, you know, that is a bad thing.

Um, I don't, but this comes back to the point of how much we, in this,

my job before this, my fight this week, before the end of the week, to see how, how far we go if we start getting that chain of questions about it.

Yeah.

And, uh, yeah.

Yeah.

You've got to take a drive, you've got to put yourself in a position on the other side, to smart call your badge, or sit down and say, ah, I don't see what you're, ah, they didn't answer that, they didn't answer that, they didn't answer that, they didn't answer that, they didn't answer that, and so on.

So it'd be an interesting thing.

But my point is, let's look at it the other way.

If we go the right direction, we can go right to that end.

That's right, right.

That's my point.

And I just want to answer that.

But my point is, let's look at it the other way.

If we go to the written derogatory, we can run to that end.

That's right.

That's my opinion.

And that's why I think this is what we can do.

Because my point is, I would say that this is not a tentative vehicle.

I wouldn't say that it wasn't a tentative vehicle.

I'm answering the questions here.

I'll be glad to reply and write to any other questions that you have.

You're going to have those questions answered.

I had a paragraph in an earlier draft that raised the fact that we can't do it.

We don't like what it is.

But I would say that this is not a tentative vehicle.

I wouldn't say that it wasn't a tentative vehicle at all.

I'm answering the questions here.

I'll be glad to reply and write any other questions that you have.

I had a paragraph in an earlier draft that raised the very fact, the very fact, that about cross-examination, that you can't cross-examine a paper.

I appreciate that.

However, I've given the essence of every question, the essence answer to every question that's been raised.

Now, obviously, a person who is seeking just to keep the slideshow going can ask more questions.

Somebody who wanted the facts has now got them.

And I'll also go on to say that if there are other questions, I'll be glad to answer those in the same way.

What I'm trying to get into this is looking at what our options are.

Let us suppose that they cross-examination.

If you can't cross-examine through the paper, I appreciate that.

However, I've given the essence answer to every question that's been raised.

Now, obviously, a person who is seeking just

Keep the slideshow going.

You can ask more questions.

Somebody who wanted the facts has now got them.

I'll also go on to say that there are other questions that we'd like to answer.

Those came the same way.

What I'm trying to do is this.

Looking at what our options are, let us suppose that they...

Suppose they took our .

On the other hand, there's a possibility .

On the other hand,

It's possible that they would never reach that point because they would say, hell, well, we are going to hit it.

We're going to insist that we're being called down here.

I mean, we would like to never have an outlaw.

Well, this comes back to a very fundamental point, that our basic strategy is one of a defense against a rather strong opponent.

Because they would say, hell, well, we are going to hit it.

We're going to insist that we're being called down here.

I mean, we would like to never have an outlaw.

Well, this comes back to a very fundamental point,

that our basic strategy is one of a defense against a rather strong offense.

We've done nothing to attack that offense up there.

Last night at 3 o'clock in the morning, I began to think about some ideas that would really tie them up in knots.

One is a well-played story in an Evans and Novak or somebody who are Kevin Phillips.

that there was information to indicate that members of this committee didn't have their own house in order and were conducting an investigation.

One is a well-placed story in an Evans and Novak or somebody or Kevin Phillips.

that there was information to indicate that members of this committee didn't have their own house in order and were conducting an investigation from their own standards should be in the paper.

From that, you would go to the Senate floor with somebody like a Barry Goldwater and have the guts to pull something like this off, say that there are rumbles and there are reports around Washington.

the our investigators are judging from a double standard from their own standards uh should you know would be in the paper from that he would go to the center floor with somebody like a variable of water have they got to pull something like this off say that there are rumbles and there are reports around washington that the our investigators are judging from a double standard and we've got and we've got to solve that and i therefore am asking every member of that select committee to subject themselves

to subject themselves to a full field investigation of their last campaign by the FBI.

The same thing that they've asked for.

And any man who can't stand that task should resign.

And I made a manual of conducts, made a manual of conducts, investigation, got to be like senior's work.

That's why I'm asking for both the Republicans and the Democrats on the committee to submit to that.

And I'm also asking for all the members of the Judiciary Committee to submit to it.

I go further.

Sure, you've got a whole round.

Yeah.

And now, dedication, got to be like senior's work.

That's why I'm asking for both the Republicans and the Democrats on the committee to submit to that.

And I'm also asking for all the members of the Judiciary Committee

That's what we're doing.

True, you've got a whole route.

Well, I was thinking of it this way, Bill.

On the narrow problem, you know, have the Goldwater Disky banging the urban committee.

I was thinking of it this way, Bill.

On the narrow problem, you know, have the Goldwater Disky banging the urban committee.

He might, well, make an issue out of the fact that they're not... You aren't sure that there is much hope for voting there, are we?

I would...

He might, well, make an issue out of the fact that they're not... You aren't sure that there is much hope for voting there, are we?

I would venture that there is no venture, that there is no member of that committee who could withstand a full field investigation.

I understand that.

Yes.

How do you know a member of that committee who could withstand a full field investigation?

I understand, yes.

Contributions.

That's right.

The next thing is we've got two men there to be on appeal.

It seems to me their lawyers to go up and go to before a court and try to get every witness who's connected with a Watergate to join before a court and try to get every witness who's connected with a Watergate to join from a period before this committee during the pendency of their appeal.

During the pendency of their appeal.

They've got an interesting side issue going between the courts and the county.

It just never has been right.

No one's really put it together.

Boy, we've got a bad judge.

Now I have to get out of Sirica's hands to do it.

There's no way Sirica would do it.

Then it seems to me we've got to get the ACLU...

Uh, then it seems to me we've got to get the ACLU piling in there and demanding that their rules be accepted.

Uh, try to sign in there and demanding that their rules be accepted.

Uh, try to some way get court, some way get court jurisdiction on that and tie this committee up.

jurisdiction on that and tie this committee up.

We need just a barrage against the committee.

It's fairness against the committee.

It's fairness.

It's people attacking whether this is the best thing for the institution of government, for them to start throwing stones in a glass house.

That's correct.

He said, however, though, he thinks it's okay.

He thinks it's not there for Goldwater to go, and he's planning for it to go, and he's planning for the next Thursday.

I'd rather use Goldwater on the Hullet first.

First.

if we can put it together.

What do you mean?

Put it together.

What do you mean?

What do you mean as a base of a, as a base of a, just.

I didn't get the, I didn't get the leak in a, in a column that, a column that the investigators aren't, aren't as involved as we're .

We don't lie.

What, what, what, what's that story?

That's what's happened to all the prostitutions.

That is for sure.

I see, yeah.

I don't think that's what's going to do it.

I'm sorry to tell you, but there's an atmosphere right now that the only thing that the Democrats have to play with right now, and they're just running to death on every front.

I see, yeah.

It's a matter of getting this established as a political, blatant political toy to try to defame a lot of people in the administration, rather than get the facts as something we have to work at and perk up to lay a foundation for, truly, among the counter-attacks.

It's going so clearly.

I watched Silverman on TV, I realized that they know what they're doing.

It's going to be a media persecution.

Well, the point I make about all this is that I read this, and I'm sure I can make a question of this, but I can say that I can see the problems with doing this.

There are a lot of other questions.

But my point is, what are the problems with not doing it?

And what do you do?

What's the why?

You say nothing.

Well, according to the posture now, there's always the possibility that as a result of the Senate's meeting today, and I don't have any report or feedback from their morning session.

Am I too late to do this today?

Go ahead.

I think so too.

They might well themselves reach the decision to send questions down to me.

I would doubt it, though.

However, that sets a precedent they don't want to get involved in.

So the other thing is, we have stood, we're in the posture, we've stood ready to answer any questions they want to ask.

They've asked enough.

They don't, they're not concerned about the facts.

They'd rather have a sideshow.

Gurney, incidentally, was on television this morning on Today Show, debating Tunney on executive privilege.

He did a spectacularly good job.

He was just superb.

He had all the—it sounded like he was speaking at your press conference.

The way he described what the president was doing was not executive privilege.

It's the preservation of the—exercise his responsibility to preserve separation of powers.

He said that these people are cooperating down there.

And don't forget it.

They have offered to give the information, but people don't want the information.

They want the issue.

Uh, it might be, uh, that's a really very open sign that Gurney wants to help in every way he can.

Right.

He's risking his political career.

That's right.

But he may be risking the right way to have a deal with Florida.

That may be the right thing.

Uh, the point is, though, that, uh, you've got nothing to do with this point, as I see it.

I'd like to go back through and see if we can answer every question that Ziegler raises.

That would be the next exercise.

If we can, then we'll just go with it.

If there's reservation that Ted's going to raise more questions and it'll solve, then I'd say that we, that Ziegler just keeps saying that we've offered to cooperate any way we can.

They've not asked for anything from us.

I mean, let's suppose that we don't.

which we have done with John Dean, did meet Mrs. Segretti in Miami.

Briefly on the sidewalk, wasn't it?

That's a headline.

Dean and Betsy met Segretti.

And the mullah process, which we've talked about now, if we put this answer in and don't invalidate what you're talking about, that will undoubtedly come out at some point.

Yes, but I mean, you're aware that that's going to be a big, major headline.

But by then, it's kind of, you know, I can see it now.

We've been up and saying, how about, how about, how it turns out that Dean was in touch with Segretti.

So what's your point?

That, yes, we recognize that this is a war.

We're going to have to take some heat on this one.

But I think it's better to get it out now than to get caught holding it back.

I'd rather have us at this point where we can give out material which we would have had to give out anyway.

They don't know that.

There's no way they'd know that.

The one thing we are not doing right now, and I think that we should be doing, is getting a counter-attack going against them.

Then maybe assess whether we should be volunteering information.

Maybe we ought to change the tone of this thing a little bit.

Get Sullivan out.

I got, there is a week or two of headlines

Uh, get Goldwater out demanding that these people that are investigating, be able to investigate themselves.

Uh, and let him bang it every single day.

He'll have to get it by counter-attack.

That's true.

I think, basically, that's all he's gonna use.

Captain, you don't think he's the way to get it?

No, I'm not.

No, I think he is.

You get that stuff every day.

I will do that, sir.

What time?

Uh, if he's back in the office today, I'll tell him I have to have it this afternoon.

Yes, sir.

As soon as I get out of here, I'll call him.

Let's see what we can do.

Uh, the Senate doesn't act today.

They don't, it doesn't appear that they've got it set about questions.

Any more questions?

We don't have to rush this out today or tomorrow.

No, no, no.

Uh, I'd like to ask, uh, if you're ready to use nomination today either, you're not going to send them, are you?

I don't think so.

Well, that's the other one.

My reason, I thought you had to have the Russians in there.

I thought they might, too.

Now, maybe one individual.

Senator May, well, ask me questions.

I don't know.

It's possible.

Well, if they do, then you can respond.

We're not here.

I don't know anybody else.

We're looking at this security, except for her.

We should keep it on.

I, I, it's one more judgment.

I don't know if it should be involved or anything else.

I, I think Ziegler's the, the one who has the feel for exactly, and he didn't burn, he, he rattled off five buses so that he could get in there, briefed again.

Sure.

Well, he conducted that, and the press, and a couple of the settlement.

I'd be as full as possible if that was, if they got out and everyone was safe.

i i don't think for me

I'm just, I should, well, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Or something like that.

Well, as a practical matter, when he first was under investigation, Strawn told me and asked if I would talk to him.

Then I talked to him way back in our office in July.

And I know, sir, that was the Mayflower Hotel in Meadow.

And then he did come to my office on one occasion.

And I probably was the only person in contact with him during the fire.

And he was the only one.

As a matter of fact, I don't even know if you can talk about it, but you're already the only contact you had with Soretti.

It was a response to a question that he raised with regard to the fact that you don't cooperate with the committee.

That's the way that I, you're supposed to write like that, but you get away with that.

You really can't.

You don't have to say it.

Every day I think, well, what did he say?

What did you say?

That's all you did.

You didn't do anything else, did you?

Yeah.

You know, nothing else.

What was that, too?

Well, I'm going to go up on November 10th so we can make a judgment, too.

what it all meant on the Segretti side.

I did debrief Segretti as to everything that he could remember he had done during the campaign.

Oh, yeah.

I see.

Well, I thought we had to have that information.

We had to have that information, I understand.

It was part of their investigation.

Well, that's part of it.

That's part of your investigation.

I think that's part of your investigation.

And if you question it extensively, it's part of my investigation into the direction of President Eichmann.

Extensively.

I mean, it's flat out.

You know what I'm saying?

You can make an asset out of it.

You know what that says?

It's a question of how bad.

It's not a game.

It's not a legal act.

It's some goddamn thing.

That's the way it's going to be.

There are ways sometimes with these answers that are not totally, you know, you want to enter a chapter, detail, or urge, but it's belated.

He was not involved.

He certainly could be clued.

I can't talk to him, but what he was doing was directed and probated on the White House, which is the third key up there.

I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I,

In other words, that's enough to put out about it.

That gets you in the .

See, in other words, the way I go about it, I'd say, I didn't show up in the box.

He said, my concern, Mr. Gready, was I did this man .

And my purpose was if I talk to Segretti about this and this and that and the other thing, and far from showing any finals, my purpose was to talk to Segretti, to the White House.

That's what I had to do.

At least I think of it.

handle things like that in a way that should bring it in as a subhead to something else, rather than, yes, I do this, and I'd rather do it.

Well, the only other one around here that is worth, as I said, might come after her and look at her, but maybe not.

Maybe he's, rather, maybe he's, if you don't think his judgment would be...

He's a very good editor and a very good lawyer, but I'm questioning whether he wanted to...

But why don't you go forward, and I'll go on.

What are you going to do then now?

We'll go back and just brainstorm this, the LDA coins, and see how much we can expand it to be as complete as we can.

We'll have three or four questions, and see if anyone can pick more holes, and when we get to the point that people can't pick holes, then it's right to release.

Now, how would you release it if you'd rather keep

I would think so.

I kind of think that's the best way.

I'm not in the interim.

I get questions from Matthias or somebody like that, and then we can just type it in.

I would never say it's Matthias.

Never, never, never.

I'm sure that you may see Matthias.

Matthias may have the last, I don't care how, but I says it.

Ever, ever, they take the five.

I ask the senators as well.

There's all very certain questions here, Mr. Chairman.

There was one discussion, John, I'm sure you were there, as to whether we could encourage Howard Baker to submit a list of questions.

But I don't think so.

I don't think so either.

Yeah, he is.

He did very well during the FTT hearings.

I was going to put in a telephone request to him to call Bernie, but I think he just touched a good soldier on his name.

And the problem with doing that is that I don't believe I should be involved in calling Bernie or anybody else on these hearings.

I'm just going to find him.

His secretary knows everybody.

He's got the rights of the president.

I'd love to know the fact that people should talk about it.

Where?

I shouldn't be calling them on the phone.

Where?

That's a good question.

That's right.

Anybody else who said it the other night, that was a hell of a performance.

And people will not forget it.

That's what they need to hear.

People need to be skilled with it.

I'm sorry.

30,000, I don't know.

You know, they can bless you with it.

I'm sure he is.

He's one of the young, young Jewish boys out there who said yesterday, you know, that's what you get for putting an asshole with the RC mark and a left-wing liberal bastard in that job.

As you always mentioned, I'm told, actually, all the time, I said, why are you putting me in there?

I don't think it's a priority.

Okay, here's a big thing.

Team up on that job.

Put our friend in, okay?

We said, come again.

Put us on, Ted, and make him sign the ticket.

You know, he's gonna do what's expected.

That's probably encouraged us as people go out there.

They've got people they can't hear.

You've got to get out there.

I'm so glad you like it.

I've been talking to this for several months before they've paid any attention.

And apparently the reason you didn't have the fax

We don't have enough facts.

We don't have enough facts, but I've got some vehicles.

We have conceived of them.

I'll get things started on these, so maybe it's a bit unsolved.

I want to see that.

I want to see what it is.

And we may have, I think this is going to be talking to the Bureau, talking to Johnson.

I think we should, as long as it's of a benefit to us, because we have, we're getting very, very badly treated this whole thing.

It's been so distorted.

It's a lot of, some hacky-packy has been blown up at the moment.

major, or could be the traffic, the major situation.

And we've certainly got time to fight back.

And if it embarrasses the memory of Johnson or Mr. Hoover, well, I guess it's a little bit too embarrassing.

But just so long as it's productive.

In other words, I wouldn't want to end up with .

The stuff has to be good.

If it will do the job, and we're sure it will do the job, then the risk, we don't have the risk of that.

But to blacken that name and stuff that doesn't stand up would be very serious for us.

We're not going to do it.

That's why it's got to be solved.

It's an FBI guy.

We're asking the FBI.

That's his story.

That's why we can't have it.

That's why we've got to stay again.

You know, we can never just try to stay where we really need to be.

He's the one who taught your story.

He brought it to us.

You would come to see her.

It could have been touched with a gun.

Well, no.

I'm going to have to look at it.

But you've got to look at it first.

You've got to know.

That's what I need.

It's what we decided we're going to be using.

I don't think it should be used on a condition.

I don't think it's far better than earlier.

Would you agree to get it?

We brought it earlier.

He knows earlier.

He said, here, I want you to see all this.

Or just take it and release it.

Well, good.

This is going to work.

Well, first, they've got to realize that all the students are black and so forth.

They, uh, they, uh, they're there to change.

That's what we have to do.

But there, there isn't, uh, there isn't any reason for all that good of a time that, uh,

it was the party remark yesterday that gave the thought about the fbi when you said it's too bad we can't use the fbi i got something last night but we probably can and why can't we can't in some ways we've known about this for a long time nobody likes to deal with investigations

Hello?

I was thinking whether to take a look at that councilor's meeting in terms of this discussion.

I guess we're going to have to sit down and talk about the programs.

Mr. D'Arnaud.

I think what you have to chalk it up to is that it's not so much

that it accomplishes as it is, but .

This is going to be .

It doesn't end good, and there are people you're trying to get, you know, mileage out of with other people, and it's a matter of going back to the bottom and getting some of the water and so on.

Sure.

Right.

And it may not be worth it.

keeping on doing that.

But I think it is better, but it is better for us to frankly do it in terms of full capitalization.

We're going to do it.

Mark, at the end of it, I think that it's like these leaders, and it's very useless for me to waste any of that stuff on Ford and McConnell, right?

Just get in there, all the wild cards, and then all jackass around this and that.

I mean, it's a big thing to them.

It's a big thing to them.

Am I not correct?

I don't know how to start coming to leadership meetings.

I haven't been to any.

I've never been to one.

I don't think any of the leaders' meetings are basically, they are just almost essential so that your own troops figure that they come to the White House and they're backed up.

I think part of the problem we have here with the Congress and the senators

Or like what I said about the businessmen, the reason why it's changed so much, the time I remember, is that the American leader class has changed.

And they're just hell.

We wouldn't dream in those days of not trying to step up to things, of not trying to help the man, of not coming in saying, please, sort me out, please, what are you going to do for me, and so forth.

But they come in in a helpless,

Uh, we, and that's, that's, that's true virtually of, with almost no exception, but it's, it's an attitudinal language.

In fact, you can, in effect, I don't mean all that, I mean there are exceptions.

But that's your staff, that affects the Congress, the business community in spades.

I think that's what's happening.

Now and then you run into a condom.

Now and then you run into a real adult son of a bitch who wants to do something.

But mostly they are all infected by this virus of the 1960s where people frankly lost their body character.

They just don't got it anymore.

They don't have it.

I don't know how we do it.

I mean, I think we're, I think we're in a position of caring for something here, and angering for something that is useless.

It's like the welfare.

You don't help the welfare people by giving them more welfare.

You make them more dependent.

Now, these people, I wonder if maybe you don't make them more dependent by church services, having them in, all right?

I understand.

I feel like they have maybe not to do nothing about that if it would work.

But I have a feeling that maybe on this ground stuff is correct.

That maybe it doesn't work at all.

That's, I would agree with that to the point where, that also then it doesn't work with the cavity.

But you still have to do, you have to do the basics so that, so that there isn't any validity to the chart that you haven't done yet.

You've got to not kid yourself that maybe doing more is going to do me more good.

There's a certain minimum I think you do have to do.

Oh, absolutely.

You've just got to, I think every congressman and his wife come to the White House and watch it.

The sooner they come, the better, so they can't say they didn't.

Now, the old way of doing that, and that's, if you say Truman, how Truman did it, maybe he was absolutely right.

So even if it wouldn't do any good,

But he knew also it was essential.

The whole point.

He did it in the back.

He stood there and he said, okay, final line, shake my hand, get your ass out of here, don't bother me anymore.

Right.

Dress up, come to the conference.

We've done things that are unbelievable.

I don't know.

I didn't hear a word about that.

It was nice.

Now, I'm hard to believe that that's the case, but you don't see it with them, do you?

No, you don't see it with you, and I'm talking to you.

You get the freshman all in here and talking to them about this and that, but it helps a little because we have a lot of issues, but they're glad to come down.

They say, now, why don't you come down and sit down and raise a lot of questions?

No, the freshman doesn't say that.

I'm giving them the answer.

Well, understand, I am relating this to a much broader subject.

I'm relating it to the business community.

I'm relating it to the county.

I'm relating it to the, basically, staff, people, the academic community.

I can't really do it, but I'm just saying, the whole care and feeding of people, and it may be that our attempts to take care of people and share

Maybe that would create weaker and weirder people.

Rather, maybe by leaving them alone, maybe they'd develop a little strength.

So, probably not.

Probably not.

It's probably all beyond that.

I mean, they've got a character of the people that's been pretty goddamn over-destroyed.

I believe you're right.

There aren't many that are willing to get out there.

Conlon is a problem though he may be.

He's an example of the opposite.

He's fighting for leadership.

He wants to get out front.

He wants to move ahead.

He's a sneer at the same time.

Well, maybe.

But Richard Henson was happy.

years ago too, maybe with some people, and they were looking at you as moving ahead on something, and it did some good.

There aren't very many of you, so if you want to step out in front of the crowd, I suggest you do.

So let John raise his hand.

Schultz.

I've been inundated with charges before charges.

I can't think it through.

But I get that, and what I'm thinking is, you know, you're honest, doctor.

You've got an overloaded, you know, this is overloaded.

You've got too many balls in the air.

You shouldn't have put in the charges.

So we have to spend the money back in the air.

It doesn't screw you around.

So it doesn't make that much difference, Bob.

And we can't let Henry do that sort of thing again.

You know, I wanted Dent to do that.

He would have done it as well.

But he didn't think anything of it.

He would have done exactly what Henry told him, and that's all he could try.

That's right.

In fact, I will argue that Dent would have done it better than Schultz.

Because he wouldn't, like, he'd do what he was told, and be afraid of it going on.

That's right.

Schultz wants to fight.

But anyway, we've done it.

Dent is a totally tolerable guy.

He's totally, you know, let's get Schultz.

real big buses, but he's sure he's presentable, he's honest, he'll do what you tell him.

He's a nice guy.

So what we do with George, I'm tired of some of his problems.

Which ones?

Whether you're an actual monitor or anything, I don't know.

You can't pull him out of that.

He is well on that.

There is much to do with it at the moment.

Yeah.

The problem is now, you know, we've got a temporary solution.

We've waddled around for a while.

If you pull him out of the sodium, then there's too much of it.

Why not change it?

Yes, I would.

And he sure as hell could be pulled out of energy.

There is absolutely no reason for him to even know that there is energy.

Well, Simon's supposed to be on it.

I've already met him, but Schultz should stay out of it.

I don't like Treasurer in it at all.

He might be in it.

I don't like him in it at all.

But, uh, Simon's the right man.

I don't have Simon to spend his money on something else.

Everybody's got to get an interview, and Schultz wants to be running it, too.

We don't know what we've got to do on it, but that's one thing that we've got to work on.

Everyone has the money to pull it, because we had Schultz in charge of that.

We had him watch out.