Conversation 891-007

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Why don't we get a picture over here?

Okay, one of us cheated, two of you, two of you, two of you, two of you, two of you, two of you, two of you, two of you, two of you, two of you,

You must have a terrific business schedule.

Well, not that, not that.

What about coffee or tea or whatever?

Are you going to have something?

I usually, I drink all day.

It isn't difficult.

Yes, sir, I've seen that.

Well, it's good to see you.

That's the, for all the obvious reasons.

Good.

How about a cup of coffee or tea or whatever you want to call the coffee?

I don't know if you recognize me, but I just did that.

I just did that.

That's what I'm talking about.

Are you going to have some?

Okay, I agree with you.

I agree with you.

That's a good point.

Well, it's a good thing you probably don't remember this, but I mentioned it to you in the Philippines one time.

Yes, you're going up the elevator, and I was a member of the national team.

Let's go to the stadium.

There's a group of us, three or four of us, and I know you.

We're coming to you.

Let's give you about 60 seconds.

Yes, sir, and I don't recall the name of the hotel.

Mr. President, you probably don't remember this, but I mentioned the hotel to people all the time.

Did you?

Yes, and you were kind enough.

As we took a moment or two with us in the elevator, that was a memorable moment for us.

The guys present at the time.

We were at the National War College during the trip.

We were at Manila, and we did a private concert.

We had a man by the name of Don Hughes.

You're going to be able to use your head.

There's a group of us out there.

You call Jim.

Yes.

He's out at the time of the night.

He's having a gas.

There's three or four of them.

I know you.

How many years?

About 64.

I'm going to bring you back to the party on the 24th.

Oh, that's the reason.

We're here.

Yes, I will do that.

He was my military aide here.

He had school cards.

I know.

I called him in the hotel.

What if he's the only one?

I don't know.

leaving the family with us as we, and so forth.

So Don used to talk to us for hours.

He took a moment or two, and so forth.

He was such a comfort to us in the end.

Of course, that was admirable because of his own moment for us.

He died present at the time.

Oh, he died at the time.

It's record, is that right?

Yes, it is.

So we did have mutual friends there.

We had a man by the name

I'm going to bring him back to the party on the 24th.

Oh, that's great.

The reason they're doing that move is that he was my military aide here.

He had a program.

He was in charge of our liaison.

leaving the family and this and so forth.

So Don used to talk to us and forget all of the hours and so forth.

He was such a comfort to them because of his own records, et cetera, you know.

Yes, we had that.

So I thought, I'm going to get flown back here to come to the party.

Well, in fact, we're not going to have any cabs.

We're not going to have any cabs unless there's another VIP, but I'm just going to have to use it in due course.

That's all I'm here to provide.

Oh, that's so very kind of you to do that.

Oh, I wanted to do it.

I wanted to do it, actually.

I wanted to do it earlier, but I talked...

to do something earlier to do to Denton and Reisner.

They both agreed that we should wait until after about a couple months after everybody was back.

Yes, so that everybody could have a chance to, you know, get their feet in the ground and so forth.

Get what's collected.

So, in May of the next time, in May of the next time, it should be pretty obvious.

It doesn't rain when I have it outside in a big tent because there's so many

We get, you know, the staff says, they've got to go on the seats, 110.

And we, well, as you know, the, the, the, the things that, I was thinking to that fellow, Peter, if I remember, it wasn't, I can't remember.

I was dreaming, he was saying, yes, sir, it wasn't, no, I, I don't think it was, it wasn't the year, but every chance I remember that, one of those days before, I said it will be four times.

There was a group of survivors of the battalion were celebrating a party out there.

Do you remember that?

That group was not there.

No, sir.

I think it was later than that.

You told us that you were over there.

That's right.

At this time.

And I just mention it because I had seen all the presidents and since because of that visit, I told you.

And that made me get the elevator with you.

Well, that did something.

But you were so very kind to us.

Were you on your way then to Vietnam?

I don't know, sir.

This is the National War College.

It's one of our typical trips.

Thank you very much.

How may I help you?

Did you learn your Spanish from Castro?

No, sir.

Actually, he's from Spain.

Not you.

Did you come over?

No, I wasn't lucky.

I didn't like the big price they came for free.

Yeah.

They started checking one, two, three, four, five.

One, two, three, four, five.

Take it to the suitcase.

But they weren't lucky.

Hey, well, God bless you.

Hey, you wanted to tell anyone?

You wanted us to send you back?

Uh, well, Mickey, get out.

All right, okay.

So I thought I'd get flown back here to come to the party.

Well, in fact, we're not having... See, we're not going to have any cabs and all sorts of other VIPs, but I'm just going to have to use... Do you, of course, do all this here?

Why is that?

Oh, that's so very kind of you to do that.

Oh, I wanted to do it.

I wanted to do it, actually.

I wanted to do it earlier, but I talked...

They both agreed that we should wait until after a couple months after everybody was back.

Yes, so that everybody could get a chance to, no, sorry, get their feet in the ground and so forth, and get what's collected.

So, in May of the next time, in May of the next month, it should be pretty clear.

It doesn't ring a bell outside in a big tent because there's so many

We kept, you know, the steps, the stake out of the only seats are 110.

And we, well, as you know, the, the, the things, uh, I've said to that fellow, Peter, if I remember, it wasn't, uh, every three weeks, they, yes, sir, it wasn't, uh, no, I, I don't think it was, it wasn't the year, but every chance I remember that, one of those days before, I said it would be four times.

There was a group, the survivors of the baton were celebrating a party out there.

You don't remember that?

That group was not there.

No, sir.

It was, I think, later than that.

You told us that you were over there.

I was just trying.

I just mentioned it because I had seen all the presidents and just because of that visit, I told everybody I'd seen

Well, that did something.

But you were so very kind to us.

Well, thanks.

Sure.

Were you on your way then to Vietnam?

I don't know, sir.

This is the National War College, and we were on our typical trips.

Thank you very much.

How may I help you?

You learned it from Castro, right?

You learned your Spanish from Castro?

No, sir.

Actually, he's from Spain, right?

You should come over and light both of them.

No, I wasn't lucky.

I mean, when they speak, right, they can't go to sleep.

If they started checking, one, two, three, four, up, one, two, three, four, up, checking the suitcase, they...

But they might not hate us.

They've got a question for us.

Do you want us to send you back?

Uh, well, Mickey, get out.

All right, okay.

Well, you know what?

You lose.

what they have done for the morale and the spirit of this country.

The day, as you know, has gone through a very difficult period.

It was frankly difficult to survive here.

The past four years perhaps more difficult than the previous four years because the longer the war goes on,

and uh the uh i said in this office the president of course considered the problems they've never gotten to the riot stage i mean they didn't get to the demonstration stage in october

But you know, you see those rag tags, they were all rag tags on them, they were just pieces, they were quite, they were quite, just stupid.

Nevertheless, but it was, across this country, I, I've mentioned all this across this country, I,

never failed without, without even some demonstrators, I mean, and they were vicious, you know, that generally, that they, to see, I didn't mind the men, you know, but what concerned me to see little, little 60-year-old girls, you know, 14-year-olds, you know, out there, bitter, mean, dead-eating, you know, that's figured up, you know, and says huge words, I mean, I know all the

Well, you know,

You as a senior officer are indeed not surprised what you're going through and what they have done for the morale and spirit of this country.

The nation, as you know, has gone through a very difficult period.

It was frankly difficult to survive here.

It's actually four years, perhaps more difficult than the previous four years, because the longer the war goes on, the more people get tired of it.

Yes, so each year people know God more and more and more and more.

And I said in this office...

They never got to the riot stage.

I mean, they didn't get to the demonstration stage, but in fact, in October, November, right?

I would say in October, in one march of 250,000 or so.

In fact, about 300,000 after Cambodia.

But you know, you see those ragtags.

They were all ragtags.

But it was, across this country, I was, to mention all across this country, I, my campaign in 1972, I didn't make much of an interview, but also all the trips that I made over the country, never failed, without, without any, some demonstrators, I mean, and they were base, you know, that generally, that they, to see, I didn't mind the men, you know,

I mean, I know all the words, but, you know, that's the kind of thing that makes you wonder what's going to happen in the country.

We survived, I must say, only because of, not because the leader class in this country did very well, because it was ravishing, let's put it that way, and the leaders defeated it.

Congress, with some exceptions.

But mainly because, out of the country, what are called the common people, God must have done it some way.

He said, well, no light on this darn thing, but see it through the right way.

What are called the common people, God must have done it some way.

He said, well, no light on this darn thing, but see it through the right way.

And that's what we tried to do this time.

I cannot say I think it was right.

You know we have a sticky time now.

We tried to do this.

And I think it was right.

I cannot say I think it was right.

You know we have a sticky time now.

These people up there.

And...

we ended the long war about basically we ended the long war about basically getting down on our knees and saying, look, you know, it's our prisoners.

Yes, sir.

If we had done that, I could hear those.

Yes, sir.

If we had done that, I could hear.

We would have been ashamed to kill those prisoners.

Sir, we understood to a small degree the complexities of the problem.

Sir, we understood to a small degree the complexities of the problems here.

Many of us had studied international affairs, and we knew the options in all terms of this case.

Did I put that in your campaign?

Yes, sir.

I mean, we have to...

I feel that...

of honor of your sleep, but the point is that the United States, the United States, the question of honor of your sleep, but the point is that the United States, the United States, the United States, the United States,

If the United States at any time gets .

.

. .

that, you know, if they at least are working into there, then we not only have a reason, we have an obligation to have to go into an issue.

So I think we can find ways to turn that review over.

I don't know if it's going to happen right now, because they're going to comply.

It's hard to understand.

I must say they are trying to test us.

They are trying to test us.

We may.

Hey, we, we have no, we have no intention, of course, of becoming involved here in the ground.

But, uh, if we can get away with it, the Congress, if they, if they give us adequate provocation, we may have to get out of the bank.

Not on the part, not on the part of Vietnam, but on the, on the trail, the desert, the Monterey area.

At least the problems we have now.

What we do in Vietnam are not as great as they were appreciated yesterday because now the police were working toward an uneasy beach and we saw no end to what appeared to be a very difficult war.

But you fellows are going to take a great deal of crime, in fact all of it, in two and a half years.

And the fact that with very little support at all, or at least, actually very little, very little, a sense of support at all,

that finally the war was ended in a way that we achieved our goal, which was to prevent the imposition by force of a communist government of 70 million people.

Yes, sir, and there was no mistaking about that.

Our national objectives were quite clear to us, and we understood from reading the press

That always disturbed us.

We knew precisely what we were doing.

About two years ago, we were in isolation.

We were in a discussion, and I noticed that my man's morale was down.

I made a speech at this point, and I told them that we had already, at this point, achieved our national objectives in South Vietnam, and that I predicted that the event that would

occurred which was eventuating our release would occur in may of next year you did yes sir and uh this is of course i said we have already won the president you said now yes this is back in cambodia perhaps yes sir this was out of cambodia and of course as you know i believe you agree it was a very

It's very important to say, yes sir, just about a thousand for it.

Hold on, you should have seen that.

It all broke loose there.

Right.

I mean, you know the cats, what the important thing is that Kent State got shot.

Yes, there were riots and burnings all over the country.

But it had to be done.

You couldn't, by closing Shea, it was really cruel to close the ring for those people.

Both Shea were taking out those sanctuaries.

That meant that we didn't have an offensive, that year we put up an offensive.

The next year, and this was 71, the next year we had the end of the ocean thing.

Now that is written by the instant historians as being a failure, but actually

What it did was to spoil, as a matter of fact, what was the enemy's drive for the year 71.

So there was no offensive in 71.

But in 72, they came back at us again, knowing that they had to knock us off in 72 or repeat another election.

But they agreed, I think the 72 drive was probably the effect of the elections.

Absolutely, sir.

What do you think, sir?

Oh, absolutely, sir.

And they affected, and also they knew I had to go to the summit.

And they thought, and they were quite right, that there would be enormous pressures on me not to order anything to stop their driving for fear that the Russians would cancel the sign.

And almost unanimously within our government.

That was the advice that was given to me.

Basically, it was all aligned with the Russian song and possibly the election.

the option was.

We had it not, and we were not aware of the aid.

And the competition eventually got succeeded.

The South wouldn't have been worthy of the Army anyway.

They should have gone to Russia with the American rogue Soviet tanks running down through the way.

They would have crumpled us like a desert.

They were bagged so that

It went on, and to the great credit of the American people, they supported me that day.

Despite the editorial criticism of the press, the support was very strong for them.

They liked me strong that day.

In December, it was different.

A lot of people just were very troubled with it.

Very troubled.

Because I couldn't go on and explain it.

Yes, I couldn't explain it.

If I had gone and told them, we are going to resolve the bomb, the B-52s, we will continue the bomb until they do this for the other day, then they wouldn't have done anything.

They couldn't have done anything.

What we did was do it, and then message them, look here, just get ready to come back and talk seriously.

We will start.

But we could tell people that to the people that wasn't back with this bad man.

We don't have to worry about it.

And they kept saying, you know, at that time, any agreement was better than none.

But right at that time, we understood, you know, on December the 18th, we couldn't get any agreement out of them.

None.

They didn't want any agreement.

And they had determined then that they would wait until the congressional session that the Congress would vote something.

Yes, they would.

But then, so December...

was the last real time that we had when we could get a message.

And that's why we had to do it with everyone.

The 52s were used to shoot home cars.

The weather was so lousy at that time.

Yes, it was.

First, the fighters just pick and pick.

The 52s get up to them at night, and they said, the fighters played very well.

Oh, yes, sir, they did.

They banged on.

They knocked out the wall very close to us, and that was great, because everybody cheered about them.

They were very friendly.

Was that done with the fighters?

We saw a fighter jet form, in fact, and released two missiles.

It struck very close to where we were living.

It outside the wall of practice.

And it raised a lot of smoke and tore a few holes in the roof of the prison.

They had some shrapnel in the yard and a bunch of frightened guards.

A very frightened being can't come in.

Their attitude changed towards us strangely enough.

They started a word of the problem for us from when it was the war.

Really?

Yes, sir.

And it's this kind of interesting thing.

Not to detract from your statement, sir, but judging from what we've read,

because that had been very strange with the French as you recall now.

Yeah, and the French came in and sold out.

And so we knew that that was the game they were playing with you.

We knew that was the reason for perhaps the 10th incident.

1068.

Yes, sir.

And then we knew that they would try this before your election.

And we anticipated that offensive down there.

Of course, we did not know the extent of that invasion.

We didn't know they had 13 divisions down there.

I don't see how they did it.

We thought it was an incredible error on their part because we said, now for the first time, President Nixon has the leverage to come back in strong.

And you did.

You came back in strong.

That's what we did.

That's what we mined and bombed.

Yes, sir.

Did you know that the mistake they made was to come across the DMZ?

Yes, sir.

They came across the DMZ.

They had come around.

It could have been more of the same, but here they came across, Drake's turn, with all the big tanks and the rest.

And then, so I was able to describe it as a massive conference.

Yes, for Provence, darn, for us to carry it that way.

But I won't land, yes.

You know, it's been a curious situation here.

that aren't present in the media, blame us for this war.

I mean, the United States could get, could start this, for all the communists to, we went there to help these people from, you know, being taken over by, by, even, even, even at the time that there were not significant numbers of North Vietnamese fighting itself in, the B.C.

were supported, armed, et cetera, by the North.

There was a foreign supported person, Suburban

They were the darlings of the socialist world, and all the support of the socialist camp was funneling through North Faithland and into South Faithland, and that was a very poor ownership.

And strangely enough, sir, all of the time that I was there at camp, and all the thousands of visits and arguments I had with the camp commander, they never once admitted that a soldier from the North was a dinosaur.

And, you know, that sort of thing.

They lost all that.

And they, in our judgment, gave you a priceless advantage when they sent those divisions down south.

And we said, uh-huh.

And I told my people that now President Nixon, for the first time, has some leverage which he can't exert against his people in terms of, you know, the percent that he can be international.

You know, without saying it critically, because I had

by people who were soft-headed.

The worst mistake we made, well, I, my, my news before, or I should summarize, I, many around here, well, I can say, well, we should never have become a dog.

I, I remember the first speech I made on, you know, on September the 3rd,

Yes, sir, and that was really, and that was because he had thousands of wires.

Anyway, because I made that speech at the time, they're all hard.

I finally made the speech.

So I can look back to that time.

That was my first year here.

I defended what the United States ruled that you cannot ask Americans to say, well, look, we should have got into this war, but now we're in.

We've got to get out of the right way to make America.

I can't ask Americans to die for a wrong cause.

We've got to die for a right cause.

So I started with that proposition.

And then, during the years, I went out there, you know, I was out many times.

I've always vigorously defended the American role in Vietnam, but vigorously criticized the conduct, because it was always my view that the gradual escalation was a mistake.

The reason I felt that was is that in my analysis of the conduct, particularly the North Vietnamese were a perfect type of conduct, was that

For example, when the bombing of the North first began, it should never have been an invasion of small, selected targets.

That was not good.

It should have been used for diplomatic as well as military purposes.

And to be used for diplomatic purposes, they should have been informed by a hard strike early that unless they knocked this thing off, they were going to get worse.

In other words, I would have used it much sooner.

But anyway, that's water and the bridge.

The other mistake, however, was that the bombing halted in December, I mean in October of 1968.

And there you see what that did to President Johnson's successor.

So we had to go through the charade, talks were produced.

And so we did that for the balance of 69.

But you see the tragedy is in person.

Couldn't have done it to me.

I would not believe it.

I would not.

They have her in their office.

Except for the fact that it may...

I went down to the car.

They had her in their office.

Except for the fact that we had given that car away.

And so you had that provocation.

And it took that long to get the provocation.

But the enemy made a terrible mistake.

You're absolutely right.

If they hadn't come across the deal, the enemy made a terrible mistake.

You can see.

If they hadn't come across the PNC, the war probably still would have gone on.

That's right, sir.

They had all of a sudden, they had a very great mistake, and not so, in my opinion.

As they said, they were again, the war probably still would have gone on.

That's right, sir.

They had all of a sudden, they had a great mistake, and not so, in my opinion.

And that's why we did the December bombing and never, as we heard in the mission, did it affect him psychologically.

We heard that he knocked out an awful lot of stuff in that bombing.

But I think they've done a very great mistake and not so, in my opinion.

As I said, they were in November, because there were some pictures of him that were out of our hands.

I used to tell the V that one of the biggest mistakes you tell the V that we've ever made is to hold us

I said, because as long as our president is going to take action to get us out, and you are very, very foolish people, we are here as president.

Our president is going to take action to get us out.

And you are very, very foolish to keep doing this.

The best thing you can do is release us.

And then the best thing I can tell you to do is release us.

We don't care if you have to stay here 5, 10, or 20 years.

All we care about is the total.

We don't care.

We don't care if you have to stay here 5, 10, or 20 years.

All we care about is that the United States wins the war.

The United States wins.

But we have seen them make incredible mistakes.

We think they're incapable, in this respect, of pushing.

But we have seen them, of coming to reason, judgment, in Western terms, and we think perhaps that's why some of their actions

If they want, for example, people say that...

Yes, I figured that before, I figured that I covered, yes, basically the leader.

One of them told me that they felt

That the North Vietnamese really wanted me to bet the level 8.

I'm looking forward to American aid.

That the North Vietnamese really wanted me to bet the level 8.

If they are, I'm looking forward to Canada standing wide or playing American aid.

They will try anything.

They are sort of like Indian rug sales.

Gauge the reaction of the customer.

I am personally convinced that the North Vietnamese will continue to try to end the South Vietnam until they are personally convinced that the North Vietnamese will continue to try to end the South Vietnam until they are personally convinced

But they cannot win the military, and of course these events must be under full of violence.

They cannot win the military, and of course these events must be under full of violence.

And at this time, they are going to bounce under full of violence.

And at this time, they are going to bounce.

Bounce, then look at the advantages of economic aid, and perhaps start to behave.

Just judging from their personality, they are going to continue to try until they are convinced militarily that they cannot do it under the circumstances.

And of course, underwriting this entire thing will be the aggression of the Chinese.

Well, ability my own.

And let me tell you.

And of course, underwriting this entire thing will be the aggression of the Chinese.

Well, ability my own.

And let me tell you.

Well, that is very wrong.

Neither the Russians, as you know, neither the Russians, as you know, neither the Russians nor the Chinese can get caught pulling the plug on these guys.

Yes, sir.

Neither the Russians nor the Chinese can get caught pulling the plug on these guys.

Yes, sir.

They're both competing for Western.

They're both competing for world leadership.

Yes, sir.

World leadership.

Yes, sir.

On the other hand, on the other hand, we are very strong.

We are very strongly and directly conditioning improving relations with both China and Russia.

I'll give you that.

Directly, so conditioning improving relations with both China and Russia.

I'll give you that.

So, we got some stroke with that and we're easing that.

Now, we got some stroke with that and we're easing that.

The Russians are more interested in seeing North Korea non-succeed than they are getting along with us.

It's cold, it's cold, dirty.

And we're playing at being very tough.

It's cold, it's cold, dirty.

And we're playing at being very tough.

Every time I send a message to the North Korean nation, I send a couple of blasts.

Every time I send a message to the North Korean nation,

And that is the key, because they cannot continue this unless the Russians, the Chinese, continue to punish them.

Yes, there are violations we send to the Russians.

Yes, to the Russians, I think, because they... And that is the next step.

South Vietnamese have got a tremendous military, that is the key, because they cannot continue this unless the Russians, the Chinese in particular, the Russians, I think, because they need to fix the problem.

South Vietnamese have got a tremendous military, yes, we're trying to have a million men, yes, we're trying to have

They've got a pretty good Air Force.

Uh, they've got a good Navy.

I'd, uh, want to get them all set up to, uh, uh, they've got a good Navy.

I'd, uh, want to get them all set up to, uh, uh, I, I think that the, uh, we, we have discussed these points with Chris Floskey and that list, uh, I, I think that the, uh, we, we have discussed these points with Chris Floskey and that list.

I apologize, I apologize.

I mean, it's pretty so, I mean, it's pretty so, so they may have to, uh,

But we came to there, or at least I came with a simple jet.

The Russians are going to pull up.

I came with a simple jet.

And when it becomes disadvantageous for them to stay there in May, I haven't got to let them almost reach that point.

When they were convinced that the North Vietnamese could no longer win, and therefore,

They were now in a position where they're supporting the losing worse than they've been in that for a long time.

They have a constituency to which they're responsible.

And I thought that perhaps they'd turn at that point.

Well, I don't know.

Oh, he had received a message from Russia.

Perhaps that I don't know, but you know, you never do these questions.

Perhaps I don't know, but you know you never do these things.

No, it's true, sir.

You know, I... You know, I...

They don't realize that they can't see the bigger picture.

to play it properly.

The world can be attacked, yes, but it can be uneasy, it ought to be uneasy, because as long as the Chinese can continue to play it properly, the world can be, and Russia can still have it back on its leaders, they are going to continue to be proven to play it, yes.

We have this lucky accident of history.

It's the Russians that

if we could play one game, not play one game, we must never, that's actually what we do, but we never admit it, because we never said it, and then we force it together, but the main thing is that we have this lucky accident of history, it's with the Russians and the Chinese, for a variety of reasons, they hate each other, for a variety of reasons, they hate each other, and

We're China's best friend.

That's the curious thing.

We therefore must make that big some price for what we give and what Christ has did not.

We cry and say this for what we give and what Christ has did not for a long time.

We can say that for a long time.

But if there aren't Vietnamese, and they try it again, it will be a very difficult one for us.

First, the South Vietnamese have got to really step up to this, and it will be just as well for them.

The South Vietnamese have got to really step up to this, and it will be just as well

Yes sir, in the final analysis this is a base, now they're testing it.

all the time, and now the government supposedly has stated that our military forces are in the best shape they've ever been in.

We've achieved our national goals.

We've stated that our military forces are in the best shape they've ever been in.

We've achieved our national objectives, and we can sit back and see what's right now.

Now it's up to them to get back and see what's right now.

Now it's up to them to get back and see

It's a huge representation of what we would have to consider next as a possibility of an airstrike, but that's all.

I don't think there's just an hour of that, but that's all.

I don't think there's just an hour of that.

But as long as the North has done external help, and you have brought the South to its present position of strength, I think that you have done external help.

And you have brought the South to its present position of strength, I think that you have done external help.

It's not our interest to be bogged down there.

If we can't have a collapse of the heater, it's not our interest to be bogged down there.

well you know the most important thing now

Isolation is the worst and not the tightest blow over or to the center.

These are people that are isolationists.

That's the worst now.

Yes.

That's the worst now.

Yes.

And we have got to have an adequate defense.

We must not go down unless the Russians are coming.

I think that all of you can, I think that all of you can really sing that song out, because, because, you can really sing that song out, because, if you think of the world, because of the folks, if you think of the situation, if you think of the world, look at the situation.

We might have even stayed on the boat.

What would have happened if World War I is gone?

Both sides would have been so exhausted that they had the Germans with them.

They would have been so exhausted that they had the Germans with them.

One of the others would have been, one of the others would have been, one of the others would have been, one of the others would have been, one of the others would have been, one of the others would have been, one of the others would have been, one of the others would have been,

or after we get world war ii well what was gonna happen after we get world war ii well what was gonna happen

Nevertheless.

both of those wars to sit back and say, well, the British, the French, and they are great powers, and they are great nations.

And of course, it's against the determinants at that very time, which we consider to be an aggressive nation.

But at least the British and the French were considered to be great world powers and could be relied on for a long time.

And the day

the Japanese, the Japanese could be, we can't allow, uh, the, uh, the Croatian to break through.

I mean, through is the world power.

I mean, they, they can't, they have that stuff.

To break through, they, uh, they all turned on Algeria, which he had to do.

That was French's, uh, due to the world, yes, the world power.

The Italians, they could never go, no, they shall never, and the Germans,

The Charmers could, but the Charmers are delighted.

And so Willie Brown, the socialist in charge, making his way to the Soviet East.

The Charmers, there's a strong wave of anti-Americanism in the West Germany today.

So what we have, for better or worse, if we're going to have any chance to have a peaceful world, the United States has got a rumor.

Who would that have broken?

Who would have done it?

For example, do you think Breitkamp wants to talk to he?

Do you think he wants to talk to Pompidou?

Or do you think we're on?

Now, only for the purpose of dividing.

He doesn't hurt the other.

But not because they are worth anything to them themselves.

Take the Chinese.

Are they interested in talking to the Europeans?

No.

They want to talk to us.

Why?

I don't know.

It's just a strong United States, this is the thing I'm saying, a strong United States is an absolute essential if you're going to have a peaceful world.

And so I say to my patient friends, I say, all right, God knows I'm on peace, but you can't have peace with the United States, the second strongest nation.

No way.

Oh, you can have it, but it would be a peace that goes to the other side.

God knows I'm on peace.

Yes, they're tough.

They have a history of toughness and they have a history of expansionism.

It's quite clear.

What is your estimate, Mr. President, how well they're going to do over there unless you're willing to be able to bust up the

The problem we have there, much of the problem is frankly here.

If our Congress goes through this nonsense

Americans.

That was a kind of thing that was kind of bad.

Now, they've only, we can't ever negotiate with the Warsaw Pact for a virtue reduction.

And that is in the interest of everybody.

We get the right kind of deal, although it's pretty hard to find one.

It's an obvious advantage to us.

But, to answer your question, I would say, I would say,

the long-term Russian objective, as it has been for 25 years, that busts out NATO, of course.

However, and that's one of the problems with the detente between Russia and the United States, the less the Russians appear to be a threat or an aggressor, the less incentive there is for NATO to remain strong.

And so what we have to do is to play a very skillful game of

or the Russians on mutual reduction of arms, or levitation of arms, I should say, trade, or less of it, without, at the same time, encouraging our NATO allies to say, well, the danger is gone.

These little Russians, these bears, or little teddy bears, which they're not.

We're going to do our best to get them based up to the fact that this is a time to stay strong and use that as a device to get

the Warsaw Pact people.

So everybody comes down with it.

But I really am unable to say.

I come back to this fundamental point.

It really depends on what we do.

We can't, I'll put it this way, Europe, Europe by itself would never make it.

Europe or the U.S. might make it.

So we're so essential to others that it doesn't mean that we should carry as much of the load as we do.

We should carry it indefinitely.

But at the present time, we're the only nation strong enough to provide not only the hardware, but the leadership.

If the United States, as rich and strong as it is, cannot provide the leadership to

There is no one else.

So we've got to stand there.

The others, they're all in the cave.

All of them came.

But the British are the best, of course.

Basically, they wanted .

And it looks awkward, rather than ever.

have horrible economic problems.

And also, let's face it, the best of their leadership was killed off in World War I, World War II.

It's distinguished from the Germans who seem to grow up in leadership all the time.

They don't have much left.

The Germans were already gone against their problem, their fraction.

You see, it's a

It's just one of those unfortunate accidents in history that we're here at a time when the United States doesn't hold on.

The others hold on.

So we just have to move on.

We must be both part of the strategy.

We have to do both.

That's it.

And as I've said too, I don't want to say it in a horrible way, but we have to do this business in Germany, trying to be alive in America and anywhere else in Germany.

Not so good because we're rich, but I've been to these countries like Holland and Belgium.

except for better cheese or what have you.

Now, in fact, a nation, if you look over the history of nations, a nation has nothing to live for except their own internal, you know, better clothes, housing, etc., etc., etc.

Those nations end up in a soft week and eventually they die.

But the nation has got to live for something other than...

Yes, sir.

And that's the unfortunate thing about America today.

Sure, this war was tough.

It's all worth it.

I've heard of arms and stuff, but wouldn't you rather have, wouldn't we rather have, be a nation that is respected in the world?

We know that what we do as a people can affect the future of the world for generations to come.

Isn't that a lot better than growing up in Rwanda, where it isn't a damn bit of difference what you do?

That's the difference you see.

Yes, sir.

Well, I mean, of course, underlying this, Mr. President, the idea that anything that's worthwhile to us always does grow.

Yes, yes.

There's no easy way.

You understand that more clearly than I do.

And, of course, we must extend.

I hope we have the mission to continue that.

what we call Western monocracy.

That's the world we are terribly concerned with.

That's where we were in prison.

We haven't moved to the South America at all.

And we think that the communist methods are so patently obvious, and we think that defenses can be drawn up against them, but it doesn't necessarily improve military responsibility.

We understand and believe in the business that you must speak from.

But we feel to a man, most of us who have discussed this seriously, that the Communist message is so very simple, and it is so easy to compete with, and it simply is language for better medical care and education.

And that is the thrust of the Communist message, and I think we can... You ought to beat their pants off on that.

We should, because we can provide those three things, plus a degree of freedom.

Well, Brazil doesn't have a constitutional democracy like ours.

Isn't that too bad?

Brazil can't have one like ours because the Brazilians can't have one like ours.

The need is strong.

They're doing pretty well.

And Medici is making great strides.

The Brazilian economy is moving forward.

He is going forward on land reform and a few of these other things.

And we can't expect that our kind of democracy

work for everybody else in the world.

What we have to do is to recognize that, however, on the other hand, that the communist philosophy, while it does provide the land and farm and the education, on the other hand, dehumanizes people.

That's the thing that I cannot .

Yes, sir.

Poland and Hungary and Czechoslovakia and Romania and to see people living on some kind of miserable scale and in any kind of way

Yes, we clearly understand that.

And I wanted to ask you, Mr. President, when you open up negotiations with China and Russia, what do you see in the way of prospects as a result of our ability, our new ability to communicate, perhaps, in economic arrangements with these people?

Do you think that this will have an effect of letting them out of the place?

They are good social citizens.

And do you think this will have a moderating effect in the future?

Yes.

I think actually the leaders of those countries, while they do not have to be elected, are responsive in a curious way.

And I repeat that honestly.

They are responsive.

And over a period of time that they look at the world, particularly as they have contact with us, they're bound to go back and say, my God, we have to do better.

And I think they're going to want more of this world's goods, and they're going to want to turn away.

I mean, I'm not, I'm not a politician on it, because deep down, a communist has a mission.

I mean, he's taught that, I mean, the context is easy to cut, but as far as the Russian people are concerned, they're a damn fine people.

I mean, they're good, I mean, they're strong, vigorous people.

The Chinese are among the most sophisticated people, and we're going to go to Chinese any place you can run into the place before walking into Banker or whatever, at least Hong Kong.

Now, over a period of time,

The more contact we can have with the communist world, the more chance there is that it will have a leavening effect.

It's not going to happen in 10 years.

It'll happen in 25, maybe 50.

And that's good enough.

Because if we just keep from growing up in that period of time, then there will be a gradual change.

That's what I see in the way of a change on the perimeters.

But the other side of the coin is,

What is the option?

The option is for us to stand here in angry isolation and armed to the hilt.

And what happens?

The difficulty is, who knows who's going to be the...

They could be.

We are never going to have a madman that's present in this office.

We never have.

Probably never will have.

But there might be a Russian.

Yes, sir.

Right.

Yes, sir.

I mean, certainly in his last years following that, some indications of insanity.

Hitler certainly developed some insane characteristics.

I mean, the system went, well, it's trying to develop them.

Ours, ours throws them out.

Yes, sir.

And we leave them out.

For about every four years, the guy shows that he's determined to run out.

Yes, sir.

See, my view is, our only, our only hope,

on the basis of where we understand what they are and what we aren't, and then hoping that this process of exchange, trade, and so forth, over a period of time, will get them to see that these foreign adventures

When they're so darn poor, like China's so poor, and even Russia's poor, I mean, by our standards, still, it's very, very, very, very poor.

But the Russians, instead of putting all that money into hardware, they're putting it into

Well, that's a very interesting subject, sir.

I wrote my master's thesis on this, and it turns out that the Russian effort is seen as a fundamental production effort, and is going at 100% of every gun they make costs them dearly as far as consumers visit.

Of course, as you pointed out, it is a constituency problem, whereas in our case,

Our production capability, as you are aware of, we're not operating at 100%.

And I don't believe the Russians can stand the strain long term and still back the claims of the social systems as superior.

They must be alert on supplies, TV, and all the rest of the apparatus that they come to account for.

This is a great way to go.

You know, they always send their highly-endocrinated people here, but you expose any person from a communist country to America, you have to lie.

You don't even have to expose them to America, you expose them to Western Europe.

You don't expose them to Spain.

You know, we always think of Spain, Franco.

I remember a huge welcome.

I mean, Spain has always been a poor country, always will be.

I mean, the land is so poor, all the people work hard.

But, my gosh, you're right on the streets of Madrid.

We had a huge welcome there, and these people, and the ceiling, and their smiles, as compared to the streets of Budapest.

It's a different deal.

Sir, what sort of welcome did you get behind that curtain?

Did you get any education from the people?

Yeah.

Did you get any response from Russia and China?

No.

Because you see, we couldn't get China because we were still in Vietnam.

And we couldn't get Russia because we just mined the harbor.

So we couldn't get any of the people.

None.

But to give you some examples, in Romania, they just went out of their minds.

based on their minds.

It was just unbelievable.

They'd stay up all night and talk and yell and scream and holler at each other.

The Poles, same.

The Poles tried to keep it restrained because we came here right after Russia, after the mining.

But the Poles break loose before they're hungry.

There's the privates.

The moment they found out who you were, the young people swarmed around Czechoslovakia.

The Czechs will always start to play, you know, the hotel game.

Yes, sir.

But they want to be.

Let me tell you that as far as the people of the Eastern Europe, the Russians, have got to be scared enough.

They've got to be scared enough.

Either in the East Germany, that, of course, is so highly organized.

The Germans are so good.

Whatever it is, whatever it is, I guess they're a brand of communists.

I guess they're a brand of communists.

That's the word.

But as far as the people are concerned, I think, I think Russia, even though the government put a lot of money, we grow people are concerned, I think, I think Russia, even though the government put a lot of money, we grow from the streets of Leningrad, they grow from the streets of Leningrad, they have three blocks, three blocks away.

But we would see that by the thousands, any amount of money, by the thousands, these are disciplined people.

They were there.

there they would be waiting on their windows and on over their fences waiting there hanging out on the street this is the normal part of it and they were caught and there they would be waiting on their windows and on over their windows so there is there is a provocation function of it and if I go back to Russia which is a possibility next year their fences waiting there hanging out on the street so there is a provocation function of it if I go back

And if I go back to Russia, which is a possibility next year, they do turn the crowds up.

They do quite something.

They should do quite something here.

The Russian people have a great affection for America.

They still remember what Russia is now.

They should have a little bit of interest in it.

So if I go back to Europe, I remember what we did.

They left our arms and arms and arms and all that to the Russian allies.

I do care for crowds, I don't care for crisis.

Well, we thought you'd done a magnificent thing there.

The Russian people have a great affection for you.

They still remember where we worked.

We have communications with both the Russians and the Chinese.

We were not certain as to what we did.

They liked the primates and the irons and all that stuff.

We thought that perhaps this

and we didn't know how to do it

It's hard to believe how you've done the way they started to expose us to make the magazines and then they're opening up communications with both the Russians and the Chinese at the very end, Mr. President, to a magazine called Soviet.

It's probably an Asian-American magazine.

It's an excellent one.

We were not certain as to how you'd done it.

We thought that perhaps this in English, it's in English and it's printed out to all different languages.

And then they also gave us one in college.

and then you could manage to do that to the same type.

It looks like a really polished version of life.

And of course the stuff, the photography is just so, and we didn't know how to sort of, sort of in a bleak way, they do it rather well.

They don't take the Russian protection, they don't take the U.S. headline, they address all the explosives at the very end, Mr. President, too.

the magazine called off the major issues in a bleak way.

The Chinese are a little more direct and a little more revolutionary in their aspects.

The Soviet is probably in the magazine.

It's an excellent one.

In English, it's in English.

The Russians are a little more sophisticated.

I suggest that if you've never seen one of these, I can give you a look at all the different languages.

And then they also gave us one called China, the same type.

It looks like a U.S.

I have to see what they've got because it's tremendous.

I hope we have that really accomplished version of life.

And, of course, the photography part across the way.

And I suppose that we do.

I'm going to talk to the people that are involved with it.

I'll tell you what you do, see this beautiful woman.

They do it rather well.

They don't take, the Russians for example, they don't take and ask and when you leave, call Keogh, James, Kevin, they address all of the major issues in a bleak way.

The Chinese are, you know, Jeff Tweedle's the head of the USI.

Oh, he's a superb guy.

He used to be a prime minister.

I asked him for you to talk to him.

He's definitely more direct and a little more revolutionary in their aspects.

The Russians are a little more sophisticated.

I can show him the copies, tell him not to back up the bus, and see if he'd have something to add.

Oh, and he'll get it.

Yeah, because they've also suggested that you've never seen one of these.

I can get

And that's how you learn.

Yes, sir.

Well, we didn't, and I suppose that we do.

I'm going to talk to people that are involved in, to any degree, a sophistication of character with communication barriers and all that.

I'll tell you what we should do, but as far as, again, you see, in the communist world, we do not have insight that we could have opened the door.

I just wanted to take a look at our stuff and make certain that we're at least professional.

I asked her who the cop is.

She'll join the copies.

She'll join us with that game.

It wasn't long.

Yes, sir.

The communists, they have done the best job of selling a bad case.

And of course, the guards of any philosophy in the SPS were

Um, the guards were a very disciplined bunch of people and they absolutely didn't allow us in that case.

I think it was a tremendous judge coming.

Again, of course, they were not doing what I had to do.

They were saying, hey, Sheriff, the problem is schools, education, everybody wants education, but we didn't have all.

So we didn't get into any education, health, everybody wants health.

How are you going to get us in Atlanta?

and of course the only reason why they wish education was done in this world would be denied.

They need their people to be able to reach those people.

On the one hand, they take credit for it, and some of these magazines were cheating their people.

On the other hand, they permit their propaganda to be more effective.

It's really interesting.

They were done very professionally.

In terms of medical care, it's sort of...

This is the God's honest truth.

These people, what they call doctors or what we would call doctors, want to take a look at ourselves and make certain that we're at least a professional, right?

And they dress them in, you know, these jams, right?

This would probably have, they would probably have just not better because of all the jams, right?

I don't want us to lose that.

Bring your toenails.

But they're dressed in jams.

have the scope and they have the white hat and the right to, it isn't just a game in Latin America and other places.

We answer the native Vietnamese, that's the doctor.

And of course, the government says it's just a game of, we didn't have any doctors here during France.

There's only one doctor worthy of his name, who's biggest and strongest.

That is also a question.

But now, we have a doctor in each of them.

Well, these, who's smart?

These folks are so...

and that's the simple price in consciousness.

They have done the best job of selling it.

It's that easy.

And that's the kind of competition, a bad case, of any philosophy in history.

It is so simple.

Well, it was all Vietnam, for example.

We didn't.

Yes, we absolutely didn't.

They have allowed us to take a regular from a building, plus schools, but this job is coming after it.

I was just saying, Sarah, and, you know, she was at Atlanta, the television program.

Yes, you're going on.

You know, pretty well, I have a problem with schools, education.

That's the stuff.

I mean, I hope that's out in South America.

Everybody wants education, health.

Everybody wants health.

Power.

That's the message yesterday.

Because we know where they deserve it.

You're able to communicate across Atlanta.

Yes, sir.

Those three are technologies.

but the ubiquitous thing from all the other municipalities.

And education, of course, the only reason why there was a loudspeaker in that reading place, they showed education was behind it.

And that's the kind of game they're playing, quite obvious.

They need their people to be treated in something like that kind of way.

On the one hand, they take a very serious degree, conduct classes, you know, to the village children, and credit for educating their people.

You know, they teach the national language, and they prevent their propaganda to be more effective.

And, you know, they let the government come out with as strong as they want concerning whether they were to suppress the vote.

I mean, in terms of this, they want to expound.

But it's so easy, Mr. President.

Medical care, sir, this is the god of dentistry.

These people would kill these, what they call doctors or what we would call them, medical or, and they dressed them in, you know, these gents would probably, he might be traveling, you know, these guys are always traveling around.

We would probably eat around a lot.

Are you okay with just having difficulty turning your tongue in?

And, uh, but they're great.

Well, sir, we have some residual stuff that we have been integrating with JCS, just in, in, in, uh, in a white, uh, here's a coat, a 3910 Sager.

They have a stethoscope, and they have a white hat.

We have to donate to the 16th, and then we return for some more work, residual work, and we will be here two weeks.

That's the doctor.

Let's see, I have to be here two weeks.

And, of course, one...

The government says we need to know if there are any doctors here.

I'm guessing, friends, there's only one doctor worthy of any of them.

Yeah, I guess.

But now we have a doctor in each of them.

Well, these folks are sitting here.

They're Colonel Flynn.

He's now General Mack.

He has some very interesting observations with regard to the competition of refugees.

The magazine is so simple.

One was called China, the other was called Soviet.

We have built that place with schools, with doctors, and, you know, we've had some kind of partnership with them.

So I was suggesting that he have his issues, have his talk with you, and if you find anything to talk about, and the Tiller's program, and any of that, and the meeting.

And secondly, we're going to bring up the U.S. and stuff, and I also have some observations with regard to our propaganda program, particularly in Latin America.

and basically what his business goes through.

Because we know where they use those views are that the Congress, the East Radio of the Communication, the Congress line is pretty propaganda, I think, and this is an architect that they acknowledge it.

And they're one of the, the ubiquitous, education, land reform, and health, and it's all in these villages.

a loudspeaker in a reading place day and night.

And that's the kind of game they're playing.

It explains how important that Iran, for example, is in our view.

He's also, in recent years, in Latin America, that he, of course, studied it.

If we did something like that in South America, I know there's a tremendous value to it.

It also places a potential, from time to time again, of course, a potential opportunity for us

I need to be able to read through television where they're used to reading.

And that class, you know, to the village children.

I'm going to have to...

Let me suggest that you call him.

Let me tell you for this second.

You have to teach the national language.

And you make them know that the government will come up with a strong one.

How do you get a count?

Fine.

Where can he call you?

I'm sorry.

I'm rushing to go in and I wasn't in contact.

He will give you a call.

Call Jeff at USIA.

And, uh, I didn't do it, Joe, I didn't involve you, because I didn't extremely understand a dick of the brain about what they did.

Keogh, please.

You might be traveling, you know, these guys are always traveling around us.

Are you here just today?

No, sir.

We have some residual stuff.

We have to bring it to JCS.

Are you in?

Yes, sir.

910 State or utility 16.

We return for some more work, residual work, and we will be here until the 1 June.

Thank you.

He has some very interesting observations with regard to the kind of magazines that they gave them when they were there.

One was called Shaman, the other was called Soviet, and it was really excellent.

And I was wondering what we had as a counterpart and so forth.

So I was suggesting that he have a talk with you, and if you find it interesting to talk with any of them at the meeting.

And second, he also has some observations with regard to our propaganda program, particularly in Latin America, you know, and basically what his views are that the, that the communists, that he sees, the communists mind, there is three things that they zero in on the term of education.

uh, Latin reform and, uh, health.

And, uh, he, he, he explains how, for example, he's also, in the region, there's Latin America that, uh, he, of course, has studied.

He also uses, uh, places, potential, uh, uh, Thomas Trump can, of course, potential opportunity for us.

So, uh, I think if you could, uh, if you could, uh, uh, I'm going to have to, uh,

Let me suggest that you call him.

Let me tell you for this second.

Are you going to be here to count?

Fine.

Where can he call you?

I'm sorry, I don't know where you can call him.

I wasn't in contact.

He will give you a call, Jim, at USIA.

And I did feel a joy about you.

I'm extremely interested in thinking brain about what they did and how they had moved.

I don't want the USIA to be so incorruptible or objective, but to...

You know,

for a long time.

He said he's sort of been like being a bottom of the summer.

Yeah, I've worked for seven and a half years, but you do a lot of thinking around the summer.

Yeah.

All right, Jim.

Bring in your top guys.

Let us see it.

Bring in your top guys.

Let us see it.

And, oh, let me suggest this so they want to get it.

You probably know these.

And, oh, let me suggest things.

Let us see if they want to get it.

You probably know these things.

One is called Soviet, the other is called China.

Do you know what I'm saying?

He says, by the way, one is called Soviet, the other is called China.

Do you know what I'm saying?

He says, by the way, one is China, and he says that they all... China, and he says that they all...

If you don't have...

If you don't have each of them, get a copy of these so we can show you what it is, okay?

I'll have that checked, see what I can get.

Okay, Jeff.

If you don't have...

If you don't have each of them, get a copy of these so we can show you how to do this, okay?

And I'll have you check to see what we can get.

Okay, Jeff.

Fine.

Anytime.

You'll find totally reliable.

Good.

Very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very,

uh and uh

maintain the strength and the respect that we hold on to.

We know that intellectually, you know, we take them with our, militarily, we must maintain that strength and that equity and respect.

And I'm quite convinced that intellectually, you know, so you can see the cooperation over there.

They are simply not that good.

If we apply our own to this one, we can say South America.

I have every time to say a lot about other where I'm interested in American .

They are simply not that good.

I have every time

Well, actually, it's a great thing that's ever happened to us.

It's gone through a heal-and-heal guy for us on today.

He's hurt, and we were trying to admit.

There's no other way to do it.

You saw the chironaut here, didn't you?

Sir, there's one other thing.

The Rose Garden had an organization called the Red Bull Time Gear, because those crabs were the raiders.

Crab, as you can see, was a turtle.

So that's a fight across the organization.

And it involves people who have been to that.

So it's a good time to see the form of the river.

And they hold a manual reading and they've been holding practice manuals.

They are going to

He told me that he was going to send me an invitation to it.

It's going to be sent down on the 23rd or 24th of August.

If you receive the same invitation and if you look there and look towards it, it might have something very simple for you, a dinner, and no demand on your time or anything else.

They asked me to mention it to you, but I have to start that responsibility.

Good, good.

I'll check it.

All right.

See what occurs.

They are going to .

He told me that he was going to send me an invitation to it.

It's going to be sent down the 23rd or 24th of August.

If you receive the same invitation and if you look there and look forward to it, it might be something very simple for you, a dinner and no demand on your time or anything else.

They asked me to mention it to you, but I have to start that responsibility.

Good, good.

I'll check it.

All right.

See what occurs.

Good.