Conversation 898-004

Transcript (AI-Generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.

Hi, how are you?

I wanted to know, I wasn't neglecting you, but I don't have that.

I had to spend a lot of time with Peter Smith and Brock, because I don't think it's his view.

But I got your question.

Let's see if you can hear me.

But I got your memory right now.

I read it.

And the question is basically, I don't know if we'll talk later.

Yep.

All right.

The question is not, of course, gold.

The only question is

Is there a lawyer involved in any of that?

I don't understand it.

Let me just tell you why it's small.

Because I know that because he doesn't know the same thing, Dean has not made his deal.

You know what his deal is, of course, is it's for immunity so that he can talk about others.

And I said, well, now, look here, like I said, I want to get Dean to stand up against incarceration.

So I said, what would happen if I could meet with him?

He said, I'd prefer if you didn't.

He said, we're trying to talk to him.

We're listening out.

He said, I can't tell you what to do, Mr. President, and all that.

And I said that and the other thing.

Now, the thing is that you've got a situation here where Peterson, I think, is a very decent guy trying to go through all this.

But in the US Secretary's office there, they hate the Urban Committee and they hate the press.

And they want to establish the fact that they've got a job.

I don't want to give them, and I think it's just a question of time.

I don't want to get them in and say that as a result of my actions that they were unable to get their case presented and so forth.

Now, I do have this arrangement with Peter.

I said, all right.

I said, I'm going to go first.

He said, OK, I agree.

I can't say this.

I know you're busy.

I'm going to have Andrea leave me out.

These are the words of prostitutes.

The way they talk, the way they talk, that's their interest.

In the words of judges who might be involved, it's the way they talk.

In the words of interested people, humans, understand what's the way they talk.

All of that, sir, I think is beside the point.

It's not a time for judicial action.

It's not a time for prosecutive action.

It's a time for presidential action.

There is only one issue.

They will have, for their own reasons, and I'm sure it's very well-intentioned, to stay in the order.

To stay in the order.

Having ceased to be the master of the time in this situation, what is absolutely essential is that you act preemptively and sweep away all of this petty detail and the rationalizations and the baloney that will be in the interest of all the persons involved, including the individuals that are in charge of this.

And it's a matter of hours because there are people that it is a rush to the roses.

And the key thing, the single issue overriding all of this is that the American people believe you when you say that you had no knowledge of it.

That depends upon time.

That depends upon acting and not reacting.

Or that will be lost in this welter of arguments and rationalizations.

And that's all pure truth.

It will hurt God and John in the long run.

It will hurt everyone.

It will hurt everyone if this is piecemeal, bits and pieces.

I've thought it through.

What do you think about Dean?

Junior?

No, nobody would be satisfied with me.

Oh, I didn't tell him he ought to be a station, but I mean...

Wait, has he said, I think he would...

He doesn't want to get his resignation.

He'd want the others also.

Huh?

He'd want the others.

Oh, yes, yes, yes.

He wants to get his resignation.

He's prepared to do that.

He's prepared for suspension.

That would be the appropriate way, but I don't think it has to be resignation.

Suspension while this investigation is proceeding.

I wonder if that should really come out.

I mean, I expect it to come later than that.

Well, I think there is a line that has to be drawn.

I push for a stronger action.

Chappie Rose, as you know, is very sound, very tough-minded.

He called it suspension.

He said probably suspension, that you should not be in a position to be judging cases.

And after all, there are... What do you think of that?

And we're going to use the word suspension.

I don't use the word suspension.

You wouldn't.

Suspension.

Well, it was better than this, but I would have.

You say it very briefly, and I think the way you've always gone right to the people, that's all that counts is that they hear you, see you, and that that's it.

You've separated yourself out from all the people involved in the processes of war we're on.

But they must know that's the one question that the American people want answered.

Whatever happened.

Well, you can answer that later on.

And we had it clear what he would do in regard to the Metro.

He's also a subordinate, I think, in the scheme of the Metro.

Essentially, he may have been involved in what transpired.

I don't know.

He called me in and he put me on.

And yesterday afternoon, I told him I had to come up at night.

I couldn't wish it was him.

Yeah, he's

Well, Lord, I would have done it, but I was told to stand by here because of the possibility of your asking the same thing.

And I said I'd come up at night or go over there.

No, I didn't mean it as a matter of time.

Just so he doesn't deal with my paper money, sir.

Well, I told him I'd come up last night and said I'd put the scene in front of the market.

uh same problem and i could go over today and see him but he's not supporting me i know i know that i know he's always up through the years and beyond but he is uh i mean supported in the sense of uh of not having the character or strength to be able to uh sustain a certain role in what has to happen

And he isn't going to make any sense.

He won't make any sense in the whole picture.

He will be making denials.

No, no, no.

All the way down the line, no, no, no.

So that would be unbelievable.

And I think that the...

Nothing good.

Oh, no, no.

Well, I think it's going to be a hell of a case.

It's going to be a hell of a case, but you could, you certainly could.

In my view, you have to separate yourself out more, no matter who, no matter what.

The issues are global, they're not global.

And they have to do with perception of the toughness and strength

I mean, I actually have a side that's dripping with blood at this point.

You can't do that.

I mean, so far as the Russians and everyone else and all the crazies in the Middle East are concerned, that's the account to be that we're just moving.

Yeah, I know that.

But if they get you on the defensive, you'll never be able to pick up a minute again.

You'll never be able to pick up a minute.

That's why it's mad.

It could be a matter of hours.

It might be a matter of days.

But as soon as the better, particularly in the light of the weekend of Mitchell being here and Peter being in here,

for stuff that's caving in, and it's just, it's uncontrollable.

And you can't separate yourself out of them.

Because, I mean, the will of the people is that you do separate yourself out of them.

They want the present.

I mean, you have to.

It's just, well, you know, I'm concerned.

I'm going back to the human factor.

Everybody's concerned.

I have to put this thing perfectly.

But even from the standpoint of the human factors, they would be better off this way, don't they?

Oh, sure.

Prosecutors talk this way.

They think that tunnel vision...

Tunnel vision?

Tunnel vision.

Yeah, I see.

Thanks, of course, to their life.

But this is not the time to change lawyers.

I mean, Chappie Rose, he's director of the first grade.

Of course, he sees it as a lawyer.

That's right.

I don't know what way that is.

But the issue here is not judicial action or legal action.

It's not presidential action.

It's nothing less than that.

It has to do with our animation, of course.

All right.

Well, that was just a draft.

That's an analysis there.

I hope you didn't think that was an analysis of the arguments.

I talked to Ron.

Ron, you know, he was on both sides.

He said you were...

But I...

I thought about this one, so...

I regret it.

to take out England, saying, I've discussed this with the people involved, and they agree to take that out, would take out even a little bit more age.

And to their interest, it's a hard thing to say.

That's just out of the point.

Friends and people you admire and are close to, like right and left arms, I know what's involved here.

But to the extent that they are perceived as being protected, it would hurt their position.

I don't think that they would be involved.

I don't think that there would be criminal action taken against John and Bob if this separation takes place.

if this is sport before you did it wasn't in the real deal that's the point i mean by defensive inch down there i don't think i don't think the criminal liability here there's uh but uh and by drama what do you mean you mean the u.s attorney would say because the president finally says he's going to sign that uh he's not going to take action in

No, I don't think there's anything definitive that you can say about any aspect of this.

But my judgment is that that would tend to protect them.

That would be that they simply should begin to move in their face.

As long as the separation is clean, to the extent that they're protected, they're going to be the object of a savage throng.

Congressmen, Republicans...

even more than Democrats, that fight for their skin, and they're raving about the fight as a process.

And also, they'll feel that they're part of the U.S. Attorney.

The U.S. Attorney will feel that they're part of their time at hand.

And so they'll be the victors of that kind of primitive action.

It has to be that way, sir.

Well, I had sort of reached certain conclusions.

I don't know if you would say it, but I had.

I wouldn't say it worked anyway.

But I, you know what I mean.

I've been quite, quite deeply involved in trying to find that.

I know, I know how crazy this thing was.

I know, I know, I know that.

But, as you must say, a great deal of responsibility.

I'm afraid this last quarter is, I'm blaming, I'm blaming, I'm blaming, but...

We were relying on Dean to make the report, and he must have misguided all of us.

It was his report to protect Metro.

And he was wrong.

Now that I've come to this point,

You know what I mean?

I don't understand what the hell is happening.

Apparently, he says now.

Apparently, he says what I told you about him.

You know, I had him in here a month ago.

I don't have a greatest idea of coming out.

I mean, not to get this, but you see, I tried to get one thing off.

Why didn't Dean come in and say, look, a month ago, look, Mr. President, there's a problem here with Mitchell.

He had hit it.

God damn it, I think he knew it.

But I think the reason he didn't is that Mitchell made it.

A man do that, don't they?

Well, what we're going to do, to be honest, think of the point in that slide.

It's an awful thing to say, but the people that you can rely on, the people that do have the strength of character, that can act with the kind of, with the scale of nobility here, the only one that can be a calibrator is five great.

The only one that can be five great is that.

And the statement that you make has to be brief.

And it has to answer the only question American people ask.

The only question that the bad millions can sophisticate, that Washington, all of that, that can never satisfy them, they'd be disappointed by this kind of a preemptive strike.

But the bad millions of people, they just want to know that their chief was not at all.

They don't know who these people are.

That's why the language has to be very clear and it has to be very difficult.

I mean, they will consider Mitchell in the first instance.

Well, yes, they would recognize him.

They don't know Paul.

That's right.

It isn't like that.

No, no, it doesn't seem like that.

So that the statement cannot be not commended.

We have an age of indignation and bitterness.

Some of you have been injured in the statement.

Have I?

I'll have it in the statement.

Write it in the statement.

I will.

I need to judge that case and be unfair about any doubt.

Okay.

But that will protect us.

But that is what you have to do.

I'm sure you did.

And we're coming down to the hard place.

But this is one where there's only one swing at it from the ball, from that focus of timing as to the character and tone of the staple.

Right.

And it's an absolutely shapeless, free-form, uncontrollable situation.

Too many people of sugar involved.

Good deal.

Well, hey, I'll make that a statement to you.

Maybe, maybe tomorrow you'll come up with something else.

I would hope so.

I think it would move very quickly that way, as far as you're concerned.

And they were probably... Let's face it.

It's going to be rough as a cob.

They're going to be... Oh, yeah.

For a month, they're going to be crying.

Why is that?

Isn't that horrible?

The worst scandalous is a teapot dome.

Three, four months from now, five months from now, they look back and go, what the hell is this all about?

And gets it into...

They'll go get it into scale.

And find it by your intervention.

That's what we have to do.

It must be a...

It has to be.

Thank God it isn't.

Excuse me.

Thank God it isn't.

Anyway, decent guy, but that's irrelevant now.

It is irrelevant.

Awful to them.

I need to fucking see something.

I can't tell everybody in America.

I had to explain it in 20 and made it up.

And I see so they're denying it.

So I just want to see it.

Okay.

Good for Atlanta.

It's very awful.

Appreciate your work.

Thanks for the phone.

I know it's a deadline.

No, can I discuss this a little further with Chappie?

He's been working with me for a long time.

The reason I don't want to do this is that I can't get it loose.

No, no, I don't mind.

I don't mind.

I saw his statement, his draft statement.

He said, well, I'm talking to Len, so I thought I'd send it.

So I want to give you the chance.

He's a well-known man.

He is indeed, and he made sense to me last night.

But he's driven in his own way.

And then this next draft statement should be a little bit more aged, even than the one that you saw last night.

Okay.

All right.