Conversation 898-012

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All right, sir.

Thank you for your time.

I appreciate it.

Thank you for your time.

Yes, but politically it was good for us, for him to work well being the way he did, on the recognition of middle Americans and all that sort of thing.

We got his point about we in Europe cheered when you were elected by a large vote.

It was damn good, too.

Where did he come out?

Well, we got two things.

We got a press plan.

But it rests upon some decisions that you have to make on a sort of an action plan.

And I just finished an hour with Tulsa, who came over, very concerned, said that he had to see that the message that he had for you that he had to and wanted to explain at length is why Dean had to be dealt with summarily.

His partner has a tie-in with the U.S. Attorney's Office and they seem to know what's going on there.

Very simply put, I think his argument will be that the city of Washington generally knows that Dean had little or no access to you.

That Holloman, Colson, and Ehrlichman had a lot of access to you.

That knowledge imputed to us

is knowledge imputed to you, and if Dean is correct and testifies that he imputed great quantities of knowledge or passed great quantities of knowledge to us and is allowed to get away with it, that that will seriously impair the presidency ultimately.

Because it would be very easy to argue that all you have to do is read Dean's testimony, look at the previous relationships,

And there she goes.

So he says the key to this is that Dean should not get immunity.

Now, that's what he wants to say.

Well, he's told him that.

But I couldn't agree more.

Now, he says you have total and complete control over whether Dean gets immunity through Peters.

And that's what he says.

And he will be glad to come in and tell you how to do it, why, and all that stuff.

I don't want Wilson to come in and just feel it.

I feel uneasy about that.

His ties and everything.

I realize that he was the king.

But Dean, of course, let's look at what he had.

He stretched so far about great things he knows about us.

What about us?

What about everything else that was done in the government?

Well, the question is, I suppose which way he's liable to do it most.

Well, the price that he paid, the quid pro quo for the immunity is to

reach one of the three of us, or all of us.

And the president, and Coase argues that if he's not given immunity, then he has even more incentive to go light on his own.

and he will have to climb up and he will have to defend himself.

Now, when he talked to me, I said, when I understand that John, I said, I understand the tactic, you know, of all three resigning.

And I said, all of us are resigning.

I told him that.

You understand?

I told him that you and John offered to resign.

And so he's aware of that.

Well, have they told him that the price of his immunity is that if we resign, they'll give him immunity?

Do they feel that makes their case?

Or does he have to give evidence?

He's going to have a tough time with that.

Well, to go on.

My actual plan would involve either suspension or firing of Deans.

in the course of an explanation, a historical explanation, of your reliance on the Dean report, it's apparent unreliability.

But going out, you see, I got him in today, and Aaron said there, you know, he's got it all, it's all going to come out anyway.

He points out a little bit of strong, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

That's, of course, what the U.S. attorney is.

I mean, that's what Peterson's view is, of course.

He told me that on Sunday.

He told me, I asked him again yesterday, I said, well, look at this pretty goddamn flimsy on, you know.

Yes, I'm not talking about legal exposure.

I'm just talking about the fact that as this stuff comes out, they are going to be eaten alive.

The president and Benjamin, the clamor is going to be such that you cannot stand with them.

It's better for them to get leave or something of that sort.

Now, he said, this is his argument.

rather than to sit there and later as a result of this tidbit and that tidbit and so forth and he lied and I don't lie and so forth and all of them against me and all of them against this and all of them against me and Colson and all that.

Who did else lie?

He said that and they'll say for Christ's sake Mr. President.

uh can't you can't you let these falls now that's that's the point that's what he said and that's that of course is our concern i guess rose agrees with that chelsea rose for whatever my problem at the present time is here i just don't want to have to talk to each of these you know maybe these uh sidelined people individually because i i don't know i think some of them

The Oscars are in time.

And Peterson told me about it last night.

He said, Oscar, he called.

I told him, I said, I must have leaked out of your place.

He said, no, I didn't.

Could have leaked out of here.

Could have meant Garner.

Could have meant it.

It isn't at all a lie.

Yeah.

It's a justice.

But you see, what do you say about me?

I said to him, all three, that he supports the Garner plan.

He's talking to Garner.

Garner's talking to me.

Dean, Dean, I stopped everybody in this place.

I told him not to talk to me anymore.

But you see, Dean, let's see what the hell the, what's he got, what's he got with regard to the president.

He came and talked to me, as you recall, about the need for $120,000 for the country's recent arrest.

Right.

Now, I, I, you told me that the other day.

I didn't know that before.

But so what?

Why?

So what?

And I said, how, I said, what in the world do you mean that, John?

He said, you can't continue on these short votes.

What's it cost if you have to do it for him?

I said, it's needed.

I started laughing.

I said, well, I guess you can get that.

Now, is he holding that over your head and saying, no, no, no, no, no, no.

I don't think that he can go so far as to get into any conversation he can with the president.

He would be.

Well, he can.

He's got, he's got, you have both executive privileges

There'll be one of those a day, I'm sure.

Can we survive it?

Can all of them and her like them survive?

At the point that I, they're looking at me, we got paid and look like it's 26.

I know your answers.

It's a hell of a lot different from John and me.

I know that as far as you're concerned, you both go out and throw yourself in a goddamn sword.

I'm aware of that.

And I've been trying to think the thing through with that in mind.

Because God damn it, you're the two most valuable members of the staff.

I know that.

The problem, and the two most loyal, the two most honest, and then they go into the crack.

You know how I feel about that.

It's not a crack.

It's a truth.

The problem we've got here is this.

I do not want to be in a position where the goddamn public claim, as it did with Eisenhower, with Adams, makes it necessary for me to call it the Bob Commandment Day.

Bob says, look, Mr. President, because of the public, da-da-da-da-da-da,

Now, that's the real problem that I've got on this goddamn thing, and I don't think that kicking Dean's ass out of here is gonna do it.

I think, honestly, I'm not ruling out kicking his ass out, but I think we've gotta figure out what the hell does Dean know that he can do?

What kind of blackmail does he have?

He's been in everything, apparently.

I don't know what all he does have.

Let me make a suggestion.

All right.

You've got Dean coming in saying to you, I've talked to the U.S. attorney and I've told him a lot of things that I did wrong.

So you put him on leave.

He isn't charged with anything yet, but he said that to you.

He said, I asked him that.

He said, well, I don't want to leave.

He called him early.

Well, he's not in a position to bargain with you on that.

Now, when the time comes that I'm charged with anything wrong, well, you, John, can have him by the U.S. attorney.

All right.

Peterson is not charging you legally.

Well, that's what I mean.

See, I mean, I understand.

That's right.

See, Dean has broken the law on the face of his admission to you.

Peterson has said to me, he says that there's, because of this evidence that is coming in here, all of them are in judicature.

I'm in the face with that damn hard fact.

Well, that takes me to my next step, which is my continuing misgivings about Peterson.

And I'm sorry to be put in the position of having to raise this question in the light of his having said that about me, because it makes it a very doubtful kind of a statement.

I don't know.

But just from a personal, selfish standpoint, I would a whole lot rather that the case were in the control of somebody who would call him right down the middle

But some guy that I know has egg on his face from his previous working with Dean.

And I know that out of Dean's mouth.

Now... And if you have any doubt about that and want it from an unbiased source, call Dick Moore and ask him.

Because there is no question that Peterson is up to his ass with Dean in violation of the law.

And you have knowledge of that now, too.

Now, I just cannot sit by quietly.

If I take a lead and I go out of here, I am going to very vigorously defend myself.

And one of the first things I am going to do is sink Peterson.

Well, Dean sunk himself, as far as I can say.

But I will not have Peterson.

left in a position to make the prosecutorial decisions, because I just, as sure as I'm sitting here, I promise you that he will indict me.

Yes, sir, he will, whether there's any evidence or not.

He will indict me because it is very much to his interest to do so.

Well, I wish he had.

I thought it was an interim thing until, you know, on the basis of your conversation with Klein.

Well, okay, but I just want to say to you in the strongest kind of terms that I will have no choice in this matter.

And I'll do it by fair means or foul.

No, because that's going to hurt, too.

Well, hell, Bob.

I'm not arguing that you shouldn't do it.

I'm arguing that we should try to avoid getting to the point.

Oh, I'd love to avoid it.

I'd love to avoid it.

That's just one more dagger in the hole, Bob.

I know.

Which is a dagger that shouldn't have to be stuck.

All right.

What?

Can I ask you to do one point?

What in the name of God is going to be said about that packet of papers?

How is that going to raise a liar?

He's either a liar or he's an obstructor, one or the other.

Or both.

Because?

No question about that.

Yes, sir.

I did.

I was standing right there.

John D. handed it to him in my presence in my office.

He said, here's this material from Hunts Satan.

No, sir.

Not that I can recall.

He just said, here's...

I told you about a previous conversation where it was describing me in those terms.

I think so.

That's precisely what Dean's told me after the fact.

That's what happened.

See, you can't step in and say, don't get immunity.

It's like an order not to get immunity.

Right.

And tell him.

Then he would say,

But what are you going to do about all of them?

Well, I think what you have to say is nobody.

I think what you have to say is nobody in this country.

I mean, here's the thing.

What's on that to give us immunity?

I don't think that's the problem.

He doesn't want it.

It's none of his business whether you suspend us or not.

That's your decision.

I know it is.

But the point is that, let me put it candidly,

If I do not suspend you, he will probably give him immunity.

That's the problem.

I think we're looking right down to that barrel.

If you do take a leave, I think he will.

It's possible.

Well, it's possible that he would still leave with immunity.

I agree.

Because Dean is the guy that he's got to use for the purpose of making the case.

Yes, but in an early one, which he already admits he doesn't have a case on, fears of any significance.

Well, he says legally, and in the case of Haldeman, I guess the strong thing is to determine.

Probably a lot of people don't know what they're showing.

And what Tom Locke says, you know, it's a 350 thing, that sort of thing.

How about this in relation to that?

That, um...

If you thought to me, say, before I just get a tangential thing out of the way, if you'd given me thought to what the line ought to be, I don't mean a lie, but the line on raising the money for these economies, because both of you were aware that that was going on, you see.

The raising of money.

You were aware of it, right?

Yes, sir.

You see, you can't go in and say, I didn't know what the hell he wanted for $3.50.

They'd say, no, I've given him a great deal of money.

Well, I wonder, I'm not, look, I'm just going to believe.

So what you say that our purpose was to keep them from talking to the press.

Well, that was my purpose.

And before I get too far out on that.

I won't talk to an attorney if I know what the law is, which I've not yet done.

Right.

Which is what I want to do, too.

This is driving me around.

Well, good.

The only point is, I think it's not only that, but you see, that involves all of our people.

That's what I feel involves Combox.

I mean, as to what the hell Combox was told.

Mr. President, when the truth and fact of this is known, that building next door is full of people.

Who knew that money was being raised to these individuals?

Yes, sir.

Just full of them.

Money, who knew, but there are not so many actors.

In other words, the difference between actors and actors.

Well, apparently not, because I'm not an actor.

The question there is, is that the money?

I'm not trying to make any case.

No, but I just want you to think very critically about the difference here between...

knowledge of a general transaction that's going on on the one hand, and being an affirmative actor on the other, because that's the difference between Dean and me.

Now, on this business of whether Dean should have immunity, I think you have to ask yourself really the basic question, whether anybody in the White House who does wrong ought to get immunity, no matter how many other people he implicates.

Uh, the... Strong, included.

Anybody.

I just question whether, in the orderly administration of justice, it looks right for anybody in the White House to get immunity.

I could call Peter from then, basically, and tell him that, uh, that was his public statement by 3 o'clock, is that right?

Right.

Well, yes.

You don't have to.

No, but... Well...

Garmin says we have to resolve this.

But Garmin said it yesterday, the day before, the week before that.

Garmin, this is the best chance every time a problem goes over.

So, well, I understand.

I'm not panicking myself.

But you're telling me that there seems to be a considerable feeling that they have.

Well, I agree with you.

I think they should.

Well, why is there so many people up front who are willing to call restaurants and call deans?

They might put up the story of the times.

They never know.

Yeah, it's typical Dean position.

If Dean is treated different from us, he will go out and say, I'm a scapegoat for higher ups.

Because he knows Ostro, because Ostro is the guy that covers justice.

I see.

And Peterson told me that he told about the two conversations that the wife of Juergen apparently has said at some point.

We've done a hell of a lot more.

We've just held it back.

I would doubt what they are at this point.

I think they probably have more, but I would guess what they have more of is in the committee.

I don't think they've got much more in the White House, unless, I don't know what it could be, unless they've got Colson's done.

That would be the only area.

Colson's activities?

Yeah.

That's the only area where you have any jeopardy in the White House.

I thought, let me say with regard to Colson, John, I think it's very, you could say that I've got, that I'm way ahead of him on that, that I've got the message on that, and that he feels the need.

But believe me, I've been thinking about that all day yesterday, as to whether the dean should be given immunity.

And I don't know that it can happen, but I can call Peterson in and say he cannot be given immunity, but nobody in the White House said he would be given immunity.

And what he carried that order out is that's going to be then indicated that Dean has evidence of both.

And then what do I say about Dean?

Do I tell him that he goes?

Well, the thing that precipitated Coulson coming over is that he found that Dean was still here.

You see, Dick Howard called Chuck and went through that business with the FBI man sending him into the arms of Dean.

So Coulson called and said, you've got an ass at your bosom over there.

That's right.

And so today he checked again, apparently, with Howard and discovered Dean is still here.

And he called and said, I've got to see you.

And he came in and he said, you guys are just out of your minds.

And he said, I want to see the president.

And he was just fit to be kind about it.

So, yeah, because he thinks having Dean so close to him...

Because he knows what I know.

That's what he said, let's see.

I'm trying to look at the, I mean, I'm trying to look and see where John, what the hell are we up against?

He said, now, first it was living, it was a scapegoat, now John Dean is.

Well, the answer to that is the president.

If he says it publicly, the president is not covering up for anybody and will not tolerate any cover-up.

The way he's put it to me, he's very, very huge.

I said, look, I'd like for you to give me some information.

He came.

I said, I'd like to rewrite it.

So Mr. Chairman, I rewrote it the way it says.

If you would have told me that Hall and Hurley were willing to respond,

which of course is what led me to the conclusion that that's exactly what his attorney is supposed to do.

That if he can get hold of an arrow, then that in some way gets him to me.

I think that's what you have here.

Yeah, because then that'll be argued back to the U.S. Attorney, you see?

The president thought enough of Dean's charges to let these guys go.

Well, I understand.

I'm trying to indicate to him that both of you have indicated a willingness to give the event back.

You know what I mean?

And here's a guy that comes in and, in effect, confesses to you the commission of crimes.

And charges you.

And charges us.

And I said, well, based on this charge, and I said, these charges are not determined.

You see, and he also has an ally in the U.S. Attorney.

Small wonders.

He was asked that, uh, who, and he, uh, then, then, then, he, uh, was sitting with the Attorney General, who has said that, uh, the President should act.

Well.

You see my point, and you have to obviously call this one as you go ahead.

Go ahead.

Well, it would involve the suspension because it would involve a recounting of how you happened to get into the personal investigation of this by reason of Dean's being unable to reduce his report, his full report, to writing for you.

And that rang a bell then.

and you've personally turned to and have spent a great deal of your time in the last several weeks on this and have seen dramatic progress in the grand jury in the last several days.

That would be step one.

Now, in addition to that, you would say the Urban Committee has come up with

A good set of ground rules, which do provide us with... What did you worry about?

Well, when you say this, I think you're going to find that they're going to go on television under oath pretty much regardless.

But the ground rules give you a total.

They do provide for executive session.

And that executive session is their executive privilege.

And they will consider executive privilege.

Otherwise, they will go on television.

They will go on television.

Yes, but again, executive privilege is reserved.

Executive privilege can be reserved.

At this point, the way we're in the suit now, we lose nothing.

I think we may gain more.

That's right.

I couldn't agree more.

So if you could prepare me at least that much, I would agree.

And I can say that today.

That's a hell of a bombshell, this right there.

It is, but it's not its way out.

That's it.

That's all I have for today.

Better get you into the case, get you leading it,

It notices the progress in the grand jury as related to your efforts, and it doesn't say what they are.

Well, the point is, the story today is that John Dean is suspended, and then John Dean is going to be out there blasting the shit out of, say, the president has indicated that Baldwin and Irving do might go.

Sorry to say that, but let me suggest a different process.

say he is, in effect, suspended, but not publicly suspended.

He'll say, what about Hall and Murphy?

I would suggest to you that you do the same with us.

And I was going to suggest that I was going to request that action.

But anyway, for this reason, I, at least, I'm speaking for myself.

John's got to speak for himself.

I've now concluded that my course is that I must put out my story.

I must put it out in total and in my words before I go to the Senate.

Now, I'm going to have to tell this.

I don't know about the grand jury.

Before you go to the committee.

Before I go to the Senate committee, because I'm going to have to put it out there.

I don't think there's any chance that they're not going to vote.

You think because of the legal case?

Okay.

That's great that they don't.

then maybe I never tell my story.

But my view is that at some point, I'm going to have to tell it.

But you, the way I would do it, I would reserve the right to tell that story until you felt you did have to go to the committee.

Is that what you mean?

Or unless you got it until a partial charge comes up.

That's right, until a partial charge comes up.

For instance, if the grand jury leaks, or the justice people leak the strong stuff, then that forces my hand.

Wow, such a good point.

Well, that's the next point I was going to say.

I will not make this statement until I have cleared the work that I've done.

We've got some leads we're going to start on today.

My interest is served, and I will also argue that the better off I come out of this, the better off you come out of it, vis-a-vis me.

In other words, anything I do to my interest is to your interest.

Let me ask you this, John, if it could be either.

Shall I try a half-wolf?

What's that?

You said that you ought to, you ought not to come for a while.

What basis?

Not a retirement?

We do it just on an oral basis.

What I'm doing now is requesting you on an oral basis to not expect me to carry out any duties for a while.

Because you kind of want to protect this and get it ready.

Where would you do it?

At home?

You wouldn't do it in the office.

I can do it wherever I want.

Well, I think it'd be, I think I ought to do it in the office.

But then, all right.

All right, let me suggest that if Dean says, what about all of it, and you say, John, I'm talking to you about you.

All right.

Now, I'll take care of them in my own way.

I'm not going to have you bargaining with me.

Thank you.

Well, I don't know how much of a mind we're in.

I agree.

I'm saying I don't think the president can be in a position of making a deal with John Dean on anything.

Yeah, I'll go if they go.

Supposing I said I won't go unless Henry Kissinger goes.

Yeah, it's ridiculous.

Here's the piece.

Let me speak to this.

I have pretty much unplugged myself of

My day-to-day stuff.

Because with this kind of thing going on, you just can't think about anything else.

Sure.

Now, I have a need to get into all kinds of records and write date books.

And these are volumes and volumes of correspondence and stuff.

If I couldn't come into the office,

I probably couldn't prepare a defense.

Well, he's sure not following up your orders, if that's the case.

Now, you have another problem.

And I don't know what's been going on in the last week or so, but I imagine he's carted stuff out of here by the bayonet.

Well, that's a cognitive issue.

I just don't know.

You don't know that.

I certainly... And if you suspend him or tell him to leave in any way, you've also got to move in together, take care of his files.

Could I say this, John?

Could I say to all of you, I pose your question to the opportunity to be relieved of their duties.

made it easy so that they could concentrate on this matter and prepare for their parents for the grand jury.

Can I say that?

Sure.

I would say, John, I want to relieve you of all your duties so that you can concentrate your parents for the grand jury.

Well.

Now, wait a minute.

Sure.

The trap you're falling into there is that you're admitting to Dean that you regard

the allegations that he has raised against us as of the same validity as his own criminal admission to you.

Now, maybe you do, and if that's the case, then that's what you should say.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

If it isn't...

I don't want to be...

There are two different levels.

All right, then that's the way it ought to be put.

That's right.

He's brought in a bunch of silly garbage about me, which doesn't add up to a nickel's worth of a lawsuit.

he's come in and told you that he's been involved in all kinds of stuff.

It seems to me a very different qualitative kind of problem.

Here again, I hate to argue my case.

It's just very awkward.

Well, no, I shouldn't.

Well?

When I said, well, John,

I said both, all of them, have offered to resign.

Well, I offered to resign at your total and sole discretion.

You don't have to have a reason.

And I said, they have all opposed that.

And I said, I would certainly have another consideration.

Now, there's another matter.

If this is awkward for you, the best thing you can do is get rid of me.

You know, once and for all.

But if it's anything short of that,

then it seems to me that you have to take into account the qualitative differences.

And if you don't want to make a formal suspension of Dean, then the thing to say to him is, I want you to stay away from the office.

Just don't come around.

Because I know everything that happens in this building is being funneled directly to the US Attorney through you.

Or I have reason to think that.

And I cannot have that situation.

Now, that's the way I'd put it.

I don't know what the previous commitment to him is, but he's not being fired.

He's not being suspended.

He's being directed to stay away from the office.

Because of the fact that you are talking to the U.S. Attorney General, if I could put it that way, I might be able to make some hay and get the U.S. Attorney General, and I'll say it will be good for me.

From a public policy standpoint.

Yeah.

I just, well.

And I can say you've been trying.

Because I'll tell you what, Mears did tell me what she does say.

She said, he said, what about Dean?

He said, well, we haven't been able to deal with that.

I told you.

I said, well, why can't you deal?

He said, well, and I, because he didn't want to use the word, I said, what do you mean to let him on?

He said, that's what you do.

I said, well, I said, you're talking to the Senate to lie, isn't it?

We've had some real good talks.

And I said, my mission is to rob the drug users, to represent Jesus Christ, and start escaping.

I'm very denies here.

But I said, all right.

Well.

And then he said, we've got to have a robber to test him.

So you see what I mean?

Yeah.

Before we could get him.

And he realizes that before he could get him, he doesn't try to get him.

He's got to have a prerogative testimony on the value of these evidence, and that's what he's trying to get at the present time.

That's why he's calling Strong, Coulson, Kambach, et al.

The purpose of it being, John, to get the prerogative evidence that would say, well, these evidence is so valuable and so far as other people are concerned that we can therefore give them immunity.

I'm not a criminal lawyer.

Does that make any sense?

I don't know.

But you see what he's packing, yes.

So he isn't going to do it simply on the basis, he isn't getting Dean immunity, simply on the basis of what Dean has already said.

I understand.

My fear here is that Dean getting immunity, or anybody in the White House getting immunity, is in itself treatable as a covering.

And obviously, if we're put in a position of defending ourselves,

The things that I'm going to have to say about Dean are that basically Dean was a sole proprietor of this project, and that he reported to the president.

He reported to me only incidentally, and it was... Sir, it was the president?

Yes, sir.

I would have to say that because... Well, I don't know when, but the point is...

The problem is you got there.

Dean does have a point there, which you've got to realize.

He didn't say anything when he came out to California.

All right.

But the point is that basically he was in charge of this process.

Okay.

Then you see what you got there is an imputation.

He says then as that kind of a foundation.

I told Berlichman that Liddy did it.

What he's saying is I told the press through Berlichman that Liddy did it.

Which means it was privileged knowledge as far as Berlichman's concerned, and there was nothing you were required to do about it.

That's right.

But, see, I get into a very funny defensive position then, vis-a-vis you and vis-a-vis him, and it's very damn awkward.

And I haven't thought it clear through.

I don't know where we've come out.

No.

See, D.C.'s a little game here.

I don't know how D.C. does it.

Well, and I was busy.

Well, in many cases, for no one.

He just went ahead and did things.

Well, that's right.

Well, the other point is that they'll say that the president and the first man who reported to the president was a man.

Well, statistically, it's interesting.

I've now farmed up into my records for the last year.

Less than that.

And matched against that, all the other things I was doing in substantive things.

And

it deemed it comes practically the least of my words.

How about you, Bob, on that?

Any idea?

I don't know.

Well, I don't know what he's talking about.

The only thing he does have is the fact that he didn't come and see me.

He's eager to talk to me, I guess, and so forth and so on.

And more frequently.

More?

Yeah.

All right, more.

He's supposed to tell me.

But I haven't talked to him more here, have I?

Well...

I think this, this, I'm going to make this through.

I just don't know where that leads.

The White House staff kept John Dean, John Dean's highly sensitive information, present, oh, God, now.

John Dean's highly sensitive information was on only one account.

Believe me, guys, we all know.

Well, the crappy stuff regarding Bob, I mean, strong, that's,

That's just got to be, he worked out, I don't know how that's going to work out, you know what I mean?

This idea that Strong had the plan, and what he says about whether he did have a plan, whether he did show it to you, remains to be seen.

He apparently says he did not have a plan.

The other point is whether Strachan got information on that.

They say he got stuff that was clearly identifiable, according to computers, as being telephonic texts.

Strachan will probably say, no, it was not.

And so that's that.

The interesting realization is whether it was the discrepancy between Strachan and Bruder is because what Strachan got, which he said could have been from that, it turns out, well, it was for something else.

When they bust that, they'll get an interesting new problem, because Strachan

sedan chair, and Gemstone wasn't the Watergate, so that will then uncover the fact that there was something else there.

I don't know what it was.

Was there something else you knew?

I guess, because there was an Operation Gemstone that Strong got reports on.

They tell me that Gemstone was used for all of his operations.

That was the code word for everything.

Oh.

Gemstone's great.

I thought sedan chair, too, was the Watergate.

If Jim's shown us the total thing, then from our safety, what he got was reported from that.

And it said confidential sources would indicate that.

It did not clearly identify, you know, according to this trial.

I can't tell you.

I just can't remember the reason.

I might even know this without, I want you to know everything they tell me.

You know, that would be the best to see.

All right, let's come back.

John, I'm just trying to see what the options are.

Absolutely.

What can turn loose here?

Come on.

Well, let's go back to the press plan.

Maybe that'll give us some guidance.

If you say in the press plan, the president got concerned about this.

The question is, why didn't he get concerned sooner?

Because it's been in the papers for months and months.

Well, the reason he didn't get concerned sooner is he was resting secure in the belief that he had the whole story.

Right.

All right.

Well, what made him insecure?

Did I ever call Dean and ask him the answers?

No.

No, but the point is that you were resting secure on his assurances.

No.

Go ahead.

Well?

Didn't you at some point get a report from Dean that nobody in the White House was involved?

And we put that all away.

Back in August?

No.

I mean, I just, uh, they, uh, they, they, they put that out, and I said, well, that's, that's all I want to know.

But, uh, it was never in writing.

No, that's correct.

Now, that's very good.

But also, he never came in orally to me.

I mean, I, I didn't see gold detectors.

I mean, the John Dean I ever saw about this matter.

You better check.

You know, I don't think John Dean has ever seen about this matter until, until I saw him, you know, when, uh, John Erlich suggested it.

Well, now you better check back in that period of time in July when we were at San Clemente.

Because my recollection is that he did come and see you at that time, but we can check that.

Oh.

Anyway.

I don't know.

No.

Well, by himself or with one of us, I don't know.

But in any event...

He may have come in, but it was a pretty... Let's follow up.

I hope he did.

But then he might have come in sort of at the end and said, look, here's John Deacon just in from Washington.

I said, thanks for all your hard work.

Well, let's follow up this line and see where it leads us.

All right.

The president rested secure in the belief that his counsel had investigated this and had assured him that nobody in the White House was involved.

Okay.

Then what moved him off of that belief and assurance?

Well, what moved him off was a sequence of events leading to John Dean being sent to Camp David to write it all down.

What moved him off first were reports that recurred in the court testimony.

That's right.

All right.

The charges were made by the court, and the charges were made by the court.

I wouldn't say, but there have been all sorts of misdemeanors in charge of the name of the court that have been opened before the urban committee.

It's under the present order to full press investigation.

Well, first thing it did, and maybe you can avoid saying that, it's fine just saying order to full press investigation.

When Dean came back and said to Bob, I can't write that down.

I don't think he's told it to me.

Go ahead.

I just told you.

Then that rang the bell.

Because if Dean can't write that down, then we must have problems bigger than I ever thought, sir.

And so that's what you put on the full court press.

All right, here's... That was fine.

That was fine.

I had him in there, yeah.

The point is...

Let's see what, let's see what Dean says about it.

He says, well, the reason I didn't write it down is to get more others to say that we were all talking about how we could write it down to defend the White House.

How could you draw the lines on the ground of the White House?

That phrase, you know, I don't know if you remember that.

I heard it was kind of Dean's phrase.

Yeah.

His line was that you could do that because there was no problem in the White House, and the problems were with the committee.

And he – his idea was – what did he tell you in that respect out of one point?

Was he in the line here before he, uh, uh, deserted?

Well, what he – what he said and what was in his mind – You're all worried.

See, my – my point – my point was you've got to watch out.

You may say, well, they were trying to get these conspire to write a report that was untrue.

Well, I understand, except that he was sent to write it without anybody being there.

I'm sure that when he went through this exercise, it was impossible for him to write it down without it being a confession.

And he said, my God, I don't know how this case is going to break, but I'm crazy to have a piece of paper like that around me.

Then I have to say then about your, who conducted the investigation.

The way we got it doesn't say.

You asked all your staff members to explore this.

You had Rothman, Moore, Garman, all of them.

That's right.

You had the facts.

Then you contacted some people and said, don't hold back on my account.

I passed the word to all searches that everybody was to talk.

Tell the truth.

Which I have done previously.

I reaffirmed.

In specific people, specific time.

In specific terms to specific people.

Where you had reached the belief that they might have a misapprehension of it.

Any misapprehension, so forth and so on.

To all parties involved, who were those people that would be, I can't tell you, but then I would not say who.

I'm not going to list those people.

But you can't list the people for the reason that that would prejudice them.

In Mitchell's case, he has not talked.

That is, I talked to all parties concerned that were, that all parties concerned where there was any shred of information, any shred of information, which might in any way, which they might have, on this case, I passed, I reaffirmed what I had said publicly

They must cooperate fully and tell the whole truth.

And then, come to the last weekend, I was excited.

Saturday, not Saturday, I can't say that as a result of what I did, that would be an overstatement.

And on Sunday, I can't say that I called the client agent and actually he asked me to come in.

I don't want anybody to know.

Well, remember I informed the client agent on Saturday.

Right.

So you informed, you talked with the client agent.

I informed the client agent of the, well, we don't want to get into questions.

I said, did he inform you in person?

You can say, I passed this information to, or something like that.

I said, we're good.

As I said before, I am part of the Attorney General, might we say, through the Attorney General, and in my direction, John Irvin, little did the Attorney General completely on the information that we had developed.

And on Sunday, the Attorney, I met with the Attorney General, and this was also the indicator that as a result,

As a result, there have been major developments in the case.

These major developments involved charges, well, I can say they're involved charges, but major developments in the case at that point.

I think we've got to get Peterson in at that point.

Well, then Ziegler or you could turn it over to Peterson.

and not say something innocuous i did well and uh i directed that mr peterson reported to me personally and that he was to any member of the vital staff and any person was to testify to be available to the grand jury and would testify

to be directed by the president to testify freely and truthfully.

Now you come to the next thing.

You see, the Garland scenario here, to me, I have requested that, well, he doesn't.

I have asked him.

any government people who have been, or you might also have people who have been, who are directly or indirectly the subjects of the investigation.

Even though, I mean, all this is an allegation, they will be relieved of their duties and

until the, until the best, until the grand jury receives the decision.

Obviously, anyone who refuses to cooperate will be dismissed.

Anyone who disagrees will be dismissed.

Well, that's it.

Yes.

Good.

Yes.

You can't have it.

It will.

The PD, anyone who died would be dismissed.

Anyone who was, anyone who gives a copy would be dismissed.

Anyone who died would be given a leave until his, until the trial is, until he's, he's had an opportunity to have his day in court.

Okay.

Now that trial, neither should be given a leave.

He can't throw a first-time misdemeanor.

But he has to have a leave.

That's our case.

That's what he should be.

That's right.

Hasn't anyone granted immunity?

It should be discussed.

Anyone granted immunity?

Let me try Peterson.

Your idea about Peterson would be to take it proudly with that and say, I don't want anybody granted immunity.

It's a matter of public policy.

I can't have it.

I'm telling you that.

President, I can tell you, following Mark, what would Peterson, Titus, and all the other presidents... Tying our hands.

Tying our hands.

But no, we're not telling Dean not to talk.

I directed everybody to talk, but nobody should be giving in.

In other words, you don't need...

There are plenty of ways of proving a case around here, besides granting some fellow immunity.

Yeah.

You don't need that, and it looks like what you're doing is letting somebody else stop free.

That's right.

And particularly a major outlaw.

Also, it looks like a cover.

And particularly somebody who you happen to be the head of the criminal division happens to be very closely, personally associated in this case.

Now, I think maybe the point that Peterson is missing, or maybe intentionally so,

is that Dean is a major actor in this thing.

And big fish, small fish, nevertheless, if a major actor gets immunity and just walks away from the White House having committed 89 crimes, and it's your Justice Department, and the guy that grants it is reporting daily to you, what does that say?

That says, gee, I didn't want my counsel to get hurt.

The only question that remains is why didn't he grant immunity to everybody?

What it says is exactly the point.

The counsel knows more than I do.

Should I have any more conversations with Dean?

No, I don't think you should.

I think you ought to send him a note and tell him what your decision is.

Or have Curlie or somebody call him and just say, don't come to work anymore.

You're not suspended.

You're not fired.

But you're not to come into the office until this matter is disposed of.

All right, fine.

What does he do then?

I don't think he can do anything.

If somebody says to him, well, have you been suspended?

No, I really haven't.

I'm just sort of not working until this year.

He hasn't been at work for a month anyway.

That's true.

He's been out talking to U.S. attorneys until now.

Now he's in here because it serves his purpose to be the inside source.

He's been out of the office for a month.

He's been working.

I called him this morning.

I told him I wanted to talk to him earlier.

Later, he was to ask him about that point in June, I think.

But I don't think I'd better get into that crap anymore.

I don't either.

I mean, he's going to give me some song and dance.

Well, that'll need to be proved out.

It is pretty private information.

I have gone back to the participants in that meeting where I was supposed to have said, send on out of the country.

to a man, they said it didn't happen.

Now that's, and two of them said, either one of those remarks.

And they said, if that had happened, that would have been burned into my recollection as an extraordinary thing, like you ordered it.

He says if...

He doesn't remember being at that meeting.

No, he doesn't remember being at that meeting, because he remembers being...

He better goddamn well remember being inside.

The main thing is this, John, and when you meet with the lawyers in DuBois, and I hope that Christ John has been told you don't believe him, don't try to educate him.

No, of course not.

I'm not talking about the morality, but I'm talking about the vulnerability.

The invention assures him.

I mean, this is good advice.

Good advice.

You guys, you guys, you guys got that one.

I know that.

You guys got that thing.

I know that.

I do know this.

I do know that they tried to track you on Perchard.

Well, unfortunately, they're going to have that.

Fortunately, I have good records.

I know who was in that thing.

Right.

And so I was able to call.

I also know that the attorney, that certain materialist,

The point is, now they've obviously talked, and you come back to them, and they've talked to people.

Somebody put those things in the bank.

I suppose Field is the guy that put it in the bank.

Fielding or Dean?

I don't know.

But let me just tell you a little bit.

Did he invent the term?

I mean, for example, who's going to testify?

What the hell is in that thing?

I don't know.

But may I just finish talking about this, because I think it's important for you to have a feel for it.

Well, it does.

And also, Dean is the guy that made the call on something coming out of the country.

I know.

Well, he's sure not following up your order.

If that's the case.

Well, he's sure not following up.

And I don't know what's been going on.

If that's the case.

But I imagine he's carted stuff out of here.

Now, you have another tomato.

And I don't know what's been going on in the last week or so.

He's carted stuff out of here.

I just don't know.

You don't know?

or tell him to leave in any way, you've also got to move in to get it.

I just don't know.

You don't know that.

And take care of his files.

Can I say this, John?

Can I say this?

Send him or tell him to leave in any way, you've also got to move in to get it.

I pose your question to the opportunity to be relieved of their ease.

made it easy to take care of his father.

Could I say this, John?

Could I say that all of them are getting to concentrate on this matter, prepared for their parents for the rancher?

What was your question?

The opportunity to be relieved of their needs.

Could I say that?

Sure.

Could I say, John, that they're getting to concentrate on this matter, prepared for their parents for the rancher?

Can I say that?

Sure.

Can I say, John, I want to relieve you of all your issues.

I want to relieve you and concentrate your experience.

I want to relieve you of all your issues so that you can concentrate your experience.

Now wait a minute.

Sir, I don't...

The truck you're falling into there.

Now wait a minute.

Sure.

I don't...

The problem with the treaty is that you're admitting to Dean that you regard... You're falling into there.

The allegations is that you're admitting to Dean that you regard that he has raised against us as of the same validity as his own...

The allegations...

I maybe do.

...that he has raised against us as of the same validity as his own... And if that's the case, then that's what you should say.

He's come in and told you that he's...

Which doesn't add up to...

It seems to me a very different qualitative kind of...

I mean, I told you that he's been involved in all kinds of...

It seems to me...

I hate to argue my case.

I just...

Very awkward.

Problems.

Here again, I hate to argue my own case.

I just, it's very awkward.

Well.

I said both, all of them, have an offer to resign.

Yeah, well, I...

When I said, well, John, I said both... Resign at your total and sole discretion.

You don't have to have a reason.

All of them have an offer to resign.

Yeah, well, I offered to resign at your total and sole discretion.

I said they have all said that.

And I said I would certainly...

You don't have to have consideration.

And I said, they have all opposed that.

There's another matter.

This is awkward for you.

The best thing you can do is get rid of me.

You know.

Now there's another matter, once and for all.

But if it's anything, of course it's awkward.

Then it seems to me that you have to, the best thing you can do is get rid of me.

you know, once and for all, take into account the qualitative differences.

But if it's any, and if you don't want to make a formal suspension of being, then the thing to say to him, short of that, then it seems to me that you have to take this, I want you to take into account the quality away from the office.

Just don't come around.

And if you don't want to make a formal suspension of being,

Then the thing to say to him is, I want you to know that everything that happens in this building is being funneled directly to the U.S. Attorney through you, or I have reason to think that.

Stay away from the office.

Just don't come around, because I know that, and I cannot have that situation.

Everything that happens in this building is being funneled directly to the U.S. Attorney through you, or I have reason to think that.

I don't know what the previous... And I cannot have that situation.

He's not being fired.

I don't know what the...

If I could put it that way, that's what I might be able to do.

The previous commitment to him is, but he's not being fired.

I'll get the U.S. attorney, and I'll say don't give him any.

From public policy.

Because of the fact that you are talking to the U.S. attorney.

If I could put it that way, that's what I might be able to do.

I guess, well...

I'll get the U.S. Attorney, and I'll say, don't give him any.

And I can say, you can try.

Because I'll tell you what Mears did tell me, what she does say, is when she said that, he said, what about it?

From a public policy stance.

Yeah.

He said, well, we haven't been able to deal with it yet.

I told you, the White House hasn't been able to deal with it.

He said, well, he said, then I can write it.

Well,

And I can say he wouldn't try.

Because I'll tell you what Mears did tell me, which does say this much.

He said that he didn't want to use the word identity.

I said, what do you mean, to let him off?

He said, that's what you do.

I said, well.

He said, what about Dean?

He said, well, we haven't been able to deal with it yet.

I told you, I haven't.

The White House hasn't been able to deal with it.

He said, well, I said, you're talking to the Senate to lie, isn't it?

He didn't want to use the word.

I said, what do you mean to let him off?

Well, he said, that's what you do.

I said, I escaped.

I'm very nice here.

But I said, all right.

I said, well, I said, you're talking about sending him to law, isn't it?

Yeah.

Well, I know.

And he realizes that before he could get it, he doesn't try to get it.

He said, we've got to have a corroborative testimony.

So you see what I mean?

Yeah.

We've got to have a corroborative testimony on the value of Dean's evidence.

And that's what he's trying to get at the present time.

That's why he's called here.

See, let me put it this way.

And he realizes that before he could give, he doesn't try to give Dean, Strong, Colson, Kompak at all.

The purpose of it being, John, to get the corroborative evidence in the interview.

He's got to have a prerogative testimony on the value of these evidence.

And that's what he's trying to get at the present time.

That would say, well, these evidence is so valuable.

That's why he's calling Strong, Colson, Kambach, et al.

The purpose of it being, John, to get the prerogative evidence that would say, well, these evidence is so valuable insofar as other people are concerned.

That we people are concerned.

I don't know.

I understand.

My fear here is that Dean getting an immunity or anybody in the White House getting an immunity is in itself treatable as a covering.

And obviously, if we're put in a position of defending ourselves, the things that I'm going to have to say about Dean are as basable as a cover-up.

And obviously, if we're put in a position of defending ourselves, the things that I'm going to have to say about Dean was a sole proprietor of this project, and that he reported to the president, he reported to me only about Dean, are basable.

that basically Dean was a sole proprietor of this project, and that he reported to the president.

He reported to me only incidentally.

Yes, sir.

I would have to say that because it was incidentally.

Yes, sir.

I don't know when, but the point is to say that because... Well, I don't know when, but the point is...

Which you've got to realize, he didn't say that about a point there.

He didn't say me until the day you said I had to be on a talk to John Dean.

All right.

He didn't say me until the day you said I had to be on a talk to John Dean.

But the point is that basically he was in charge of this project.

All right.

But the point is that, okay, then you see what you got there is an imputation.

Basically, he was in charge, he says, then this process.

As that kind of a foundation.

I told Ehrlichman that Liddy did it.

What he's saying is I told the president through Ehrlichman.

Okay, then...

Then Liddy did.

See, what you got there is an imputation.

He says then, as that kind of a foundation, I told Harlequin that Liddy did it.

What he's saying is I told the press through Harlequin that Liddy did it.

Which means it was privileged knowledge as far as Harlequin's concerned, and there was nothing people were required to do about it.

That's right.

But, see, I get into a very funny...

You were required to do about it.

That's right.

Defensive position, then, vis-a-vis you.

But, see, I get into a very funny defensive position, then, vis-a-vis you and vis-a-vis him, and it's very damn awkward, and I haven't thought it clear through.

I don't know where we've come out.

Vis-a-vis him, and it's very damn awkward, and I haven't thought it clear through.

See, Deacons, Deacons are a little game, right?

Deacons are just boys.

See, Dee's, Dee's a little dean.

He stayed up for one of the reasons this staff, right?

I had a date, and so God damn good.

Of course he didn't report to me.

I was a little busy.

Just a boy.

He stayed up for a little busy.

And I didn't, and you, all of you, with Boogers and Senator, one of the reasons this staff, and so God damn good.

Let's let Dee know that I'm good and keep this a lot of good.

Of course he didn't report to me.

I pressed his office.

We went and was a little busy.

And I didn't view all of you with boogers and said, Josh, let's let Dean Adelaide keep this hell out of the president's office.

We didn't want the president, I guess, for other reasons, did we?

But he did.

I think the president, I guess, is a case I'm going to make.

But he did.

I think he's going to make.

Well, in many cases, for no one.

He just went ahead and did say it.

In many cases, he just went ahead and did say it.

Well, statistically, it's interesting.

I've now farmed up into my records for last year.

You have five days a month.

Less than that.

Well, statistically, it doesn't match against that, all the other things I was doing in substantive things.

I know, I know.

And it's the same.

I've now farmed up into my records for last year.

It becomes practically the least of my records.

How about you?

I have no idea.

I don't know.

All right.

And actually against that, all the other things I was doing.

Well, I don't know what you're talking about.

Insubstantial.

The only thing he does have is the fact that he didn't do it.

And it becomes practically the least of my work more frequently.

More?

Yeah.

All right.

More.

How about you, Bob?

I'm supposed to tell him any idea.

I don't know.

Well, I think this, this, I'm going to make this through.

I, I just don't know where that leads.

The only thing he does have is the fact that he didn't do anything.

I think...

This, this, I'm going to...

I don't know how that's going to work out.

That's true.

I just don't know where that leads.

It's wrong.

It's this idea that the White House, that John Dean, John had a... had the... John Dean's highly sensitive information.

President, oh, God, now.

But what he says about whether he did have a problem with highly sensitive information was the only one to come in.

Whether he did show a deluder remains to be seen.

And he apparently says he did not believe in the guidance of the old government.

Well, the other point is, is whether Strong got information on that.

They say that the crack he's got, he's got stuff regarding Bob.

I mean, Strong, that's clearly identifiable according to the computer system.

That's being telephoned.

That's just going to be attempt to be worked out.

I don't know how strong will probably say, no, it was not.

And so that's going to work out.

But it's strong.

The intelligence immunization is what it is.

The discrepancy between strong and good is this idea.

It's because what's strong and strong having got.

And Seth could have been from that.

It turns out a lot.

or something else had the plan.

I guess when they bust that, they'll get an interesting new problem, because when he says Operation Gemstone, not Operation Sea Band Chair, in general, whether he did have a plan, whether he did Gemstone, wasn't there to remain to be seen.

The Watergate, so that will then uncover the fact that there was something else there.

He apparently says he did not have a plan.

I don't know what it was.

I guess.

There was an operation on information.

They tell me it was clearly identified as being an operation.

That was the code word for it.

That's a text.

That's a name share, too.

Strong will probably say, no, it wasn't.

Okay.

If gemstone is the total thing, then that's bad.

The information you get here is actually what it is, what it is.

God was reported from that.

That's a confidential source.

The discrepancy would indicate that.

Between strong and brutal is because what John got, which he did not clearly identify, you know, according to strong.

And he said it could have been from either.

It turns out, I can't tell.

Let's look at something else.

And Gemstone wasn't the Watergate.

If you say in the press plan, the president got, I guess, because there was an operation concerned about this question.

Why didn't he get concerned sooner?

Well, the reason he didn't get concerned sooner is he was resting secure in the belief that he had the whole story.

All right.

Well, what made him insecure?

Did I ever call Dean and ask him?

It was the water game.

Didn't you at some point get a report from that that said confidential sources indicate that nobody in the White House was involved in that?

And we put that all the way back in August?

I mean, I just, they put that out.

I can't tell you.

I just can't tell you.

It's all going on.

It was never, right?

No, that's correct.

Now, that's what I said.

Why didn't you know it was without?

But also, he never came in orally.

I mean, I didn't see you.

I mean, Dean, John Dean, he...

Absolutely.

Maybe that will give us some guidance.

If you say in the press plan, the president got concerned about this.

he didn't get concerned sooner, is he was resting secure in the belief that he had the whole story.

Right.

All right.

What made him insecure?

Did I ever call Dean and ask him the answers?

No.

Go ahead.

Well.

Didn't you at some point get a report from Dean that nobody in the White House was involved?

When we put that out way back in August?

Yeah.

I mean, I just, uh, they, uh, they, they, they put that out, and I said, well, that's, that's all I want to know.

But, uh, it was never in writing.

No, that's correct.

Now, that's what I said.

It's also, he never came in oral and told me.

I mean, I, I didn't see Google detectors.

I mean, Dean, John Dean, I never saw him.

About this matter.

I don't think John Dean has ever seen about this matter until I saw him.

Until I saw him, you know, when he suggested he better talk.

Well, I checked back in that period of time.

I better check back in July when we were at San Clemente.

That period of time in July when we were at San Clemente.

My recollection is that he could come and see you at that time.

My recollection is that we can check that.

Oh, by himself?

No.

Well, by himself or with one of us, he could come and see you at that time, but we can check that.

I don't know.

Oh, by himself?

In any event, he may have come in, but it was a pretty good... Let's follow up.

I hope he did.

No.

Well, by himself or with one of us, I don't know.

But in any event, he may have come in.

I hope he did.

But then it was that he might have come in about sort of the end and said, but clearly, Don, he just said it was a pretty good watch.

Let's follow up.

I hope he did.

I said, thanks for all your hard work.

Well, let's follow up this line and see where it leads us.

But then it was that he might have come in about sort of the end and said, but clearly, Don, he just said it was a pretty good watch.

Rested secure in the belief that his counsel had investigated this and had assured him that nobody in the White House was involved.

Well, let's follow up this line.

Let's see where it leads us.

President rested secure in the belief that his counsel had investigated this and had assured him that nobody in the White House was involved.

Okay.

Then what moved him off of that belief?

Okay.

Then what moved him off of that assurance?

Well, what moved him off was a sequence of events leading to John Dean being sent to Camp David.

Well, what moved him off was a sequence of events.

Write it all down.

What moved him off first were reports leading to John Dean being sent to Camp David.

That's right.

All right.

Write it all down.

What moved him off first were charges that were made by the court.

Other charges that occurred in the court, made by the court, I wouldn't say were made by the court.

Other charges that occurred in open charges that were made by the court, I wouldn't say were made by the court.

I wouldn't say were made by the court.

The president ordered a full press investigation.

Well, first thing he did, and maybe you can avoid saying that, is by just saying order of investigation.

Well, first thing he did, and maybe you can avoid saying that, is full press investigation.

When Dean came back and said to Bob...

I'm just saying, under the full press investigation, when Dean came back, I can't write that down.

He told me that, too.

Then I had to write it.

I don't think he still wrote it to me.

Go ahead.

And said to Bob, I can't write that down.

He told me that, too.

All right, I just told you.

Then that rang the bell.

Because if Dean came back, then I had to write it.

I don't think he still wrote it.

I just told you, write that down.

Then we must have problems bigger than I ever thought, sir.

And so that's when that rang the bell.

Because if Dean can't write that down and put it on the full court press now, then we must have problems bigger than I ever thought, sir.

And so...

I had her in there, yeah.

So that's... Let's see what he put on the full court press.

All right, here's...

I had her in there, yeah.

How would you write it down to defend the White House?

How would you draw the wagons up around the White House that afraid?

Yeah, his line was that you could do that because there was no problem in the White House, and the problems were at the committee.

And his idea was, what did he tell you?

With that respect, I don't know how many of you are on the White House.

I don't know if you're on the White House.

before he deserted.

Well, what he said, and I'm sure it was not a mean phrase, but his line was that you could do that because of what was in your mind.

My point is, you've got to watch out.

They were trying to get these problems in the White House, and the problems were at the committee.

And his idea was, I mean, what did he tell you to write a report that was untrue?

Well,

I understand, except that he was sent to write it without anybody being there.

And I'm sure that when he went through this exercise, what he said and what was in his mind, it was impossible for him to write it down without it being a confession.

Well, and he said, my God, I don't know how this case is going to break, but I understand, except that he was sent to write it without anybody being there.

And I'm sure that when he went through this exercise, it was impossible for him to write it down without it being a confession.

And he said, my God, I don't know how this case is going to break, but I'm crazy to have a piece of paper like that around.

I'm crazy to have a piece of paper like that around.

Then I have to say then about your, who then, about your, who conducted the investigation, should I say, or conducted the investigation.

The way we got it doesn't say.

Do you have... Do you have a... Do you have a... Do you have a... Then you contacted some people... And then... Then you contacted some... People...

and said, don't hold back on my account.

Yes, I, uh, like Von Kool-Aid.

Von Kool-Aid.

I like Mitchell and McGirt.

Yeah, I, I passed the word to, uh, I, I passed the word to, uh, all searches, all searches that everybody was to talk.

Everybody was to talk.

Tell the truth.

Which I had done previously.

I had reaffirmed.

Tell the truth.

Which I have done previously.

I reaffirm.

Specific people, specific time.

Specific terms to specific people.

Where you had reached the belief that they might have a misapprehension.

Any misapprehension.

Have a misapprehension on that?

Any misapprehension?

So forth and so on.

To all parties involved, who were those people that I could be?

I can't tell you.

To all parties involved.

I cannot say.

I'm not going to listen to those people.

You can't listen to people for the reason that... Who were those people that I could be?

I can't tell you.

I cannot say.

I'm not going to listen to those people.

But you can't listen to those people.

That is, I talked to all parties concerned where there was any shred of information, where there was any shred of information, any shred of information,

which might in any way, which they might end, on this case, in shred of information, which might in any way, which they might end, I reaffirm what I had said publicly, that they must cooperate fully until the whole, on this case, I reaffirm what I had said publicly,

They must cooperate fully and tell the whole truth.

And then they come to the last weekend here, that's quickly.

I was inciting Saturday, not Saturday, May 3rd.

I can't say I wasn't inciting.

Saturday.

On Saturday, it's a danger to all security.

It's a result of what I did to you.

I can't say it's a result of what I did to you.

That would be an overstatement.

I can say that Saturday was a danger to all security.

And on Sunday, I can't say that I called the client usually an extra.

He asked me.

And on Sunday, I can't say that I called the client usually an extra.

Well, except remember I informed the Clint East on Saturday.

Yes.

Well, so if you informed, you talked to him.

Except remember I informed Clint East on Saturday.

Right.

So if you informed, you talked to him.

I informed Clint East of the, I don't want to get into questions, but Clint East of the bargaining person.

I passed this information to the attorney general at my direction.

the Attorney General completely on the information that we had developed.

Like we say, on Sunday, the Attorney General was also in my direction.

He indicated honor as a result.

There it was.

The Attorney General was

The result is that they completely on the end of the day, the result there is a major, there have been major developments in the case.

Major legal development.

These major developments, uh, uh, involved on Sunday, the attorney on that, the attorney in charge of the development.

And you see they're involved in charge of the investigation.

Major developments in the case, so, uh,

At that point, I think we've got to get Pettersson educated as a result.

As a result, they result in a major, they're in major developments in the case.

These major developments involve charges, well, say they're involved charges, major developments in the case.

At that point, I think we've got to get Pettersson educated at that point.

Well, then, Ziegler, you could turn it over to Peters.

Ziegler, and not him, say something innocuous.

You could turn it over to Peters.

I do all the cases that I directed them.

Not him, say something innocuous.

Mr. Peters, report this.

I do all the cases.

Report to me personally.

I directed that Mr. Peterson report that I had been, uh, required to be personally involved, and that he was to, uh, any member of the vital staff, any person, or to me personally, uh, uh, on that, and I had been, uh, required to be personally involved, and that he was to, uh, any member of the vital staff, any person, uh, was to testify,

Now you come to the next.

You see, the kind of scenario here with me, I have a question and a question and a question and a question and a question and a question and a question and a question and a question and a question and a question and a question and a question and a question and a question and a question and a question and a question and a question and a question and a question and a question

who are directly or indirectly involved in the subject of the investigation.

Even though, I mean, this is a limitation they get, well, I have asked them,

government to be relieved of their duties and to have a better life until the best, until the grander of the future.

Obviously, anyone who refuses to watch that, people who have been who are directly or in the property will be dismissed.

Anyone who is denied will be dismissed.

I read it.

Yes.

You can have it.

It will last you.

Anyone who is shy will be dismissed.

Anyone who is not so will be dismissed.

I mean, all this is an allegation that you killed.

Well, we relieve the police.

And until the best of contentment, until the grand jury receives, obviously, anyone who refuses to walk away will be dismissed.

Anyone who refuses to die will be dismissed.

Well, that's it.

Yes.

Good.

Yes.

You can't have it.

It will.

Anyone who dies will be dismissed.

Anyone who gives a copy will be dismissed.

Anyone who dies will be given a leave.

Until he's had an opportunity.

He can't go first, obviously.

Your idea about Peterson.

How about anyone granted immunity?

Anyone granted immunity?

Let me try it, Peterson.

Your idea about Peterson would be to take it proudly with that and say, I don't want anybody granted immunity.

I'm telling you that.

In other words, you don't need to tie our hands.

There's plenty of ways of proving a case around here besides granting some fellow immunity.

You don't need that, and it looks like what you're doing is letting somebody...

This is what I know about stock-free.

And particularly, it looks like a cover.

And particularly, somebody who you happen to be.

The head of the technical division happens to be very.

You don't need.

Closely, personally associated, in this case.

Now, there are plenty of ways of proving it.

You can teach leaders on that.

I think maybe besides granting some fellow immunity, is that you don't need to be a major actor in this thing.

You don't need that, and it looks like what you're doing.

And it's like a small fish.

Nevertheless, if somebody else got free, sure.

A major actor gets immunity and just walks away from the White House having committed 89 crimes.

That's right.

And also it looks like a cover.

And particularly somebody who would do that.

And it's your Justice Department.

That's right.

And the guy that happened to be the...

The head of the criminal division is reporting daily to you.

What does that say?

That must be very closely, personally associated in this case.

The only question that remains is why didn't you grant immunity to everybody?

What it says is the case.

Now, that's exactly the point.

The counsel knows more than I do.

Should I have any more conversations with Pete?

I mean, Pete Peterson, right?

I think maybe the point that Peterson is missing.

Maybe intentionally so.

Is that Dean is a major actor in this thing.

You're not fired.

But you're not coming to work.

And basically, until this matter is disposed of.

Nevertheless, if a major actor gets immunity and just walks away from the White House having committed 89 crimes, and it's your Justice Department, and the guy that grants it is reporting daily to you, what does that say?

The only question that remains is why didn't he grant immunity to everybody?

What it says is exactly the point.

The counsel knows more now than should I have any more conversations with him.

You're not fired.

But you're not to come into the office until this matter is disposed of.

All right, fine.

That's a good talk.

I don't think he does.

All right, fine.

That's a good talk.

If somebody says to him...

Well, have you been suspended?

I don't think he can do anything.

If somebody says, I'm just sort of not working until this... Well, he hasn't been at work for... Well, have you been suspended?

I'm just... That's true.

He's been out talking to U.S. Attorney until now.

Now he's in here just sort of not working until this... Well, he hasn't been at work for the service's purpose to be the inside source.

...for a month anyway.

That's true.

He's been out talking to U.S. attorneys.

He's been working...

I called him this morning and I told him I wanted to go now.

Now he's in here because it serves his purpose to talk to me.

Earlier, later, he was to ask me about that point on June 19th.

But I don't think I've ever gotten to that point.

...the inside stories.

I don't either.

I mean, he's going to give me some song and dance.

He's been working.

I called him.

Well, that'll need to be proved out.

It is pretty private information.

I told him I wanted to talk to him earlier.

Later, he was asking about it.

I have gone back to the participants in that meeting where I was supposed to.

But I don't think I'm going to get into that crap anymore.

I don't either.

Who said, send on out of the country?

To a man.

They said that it didn't happen.

He's, uh, he's gonna give me some sonic dance.

Now, that's, uh, and, and two of them said, gee, it, it... What about it?

Well, that'll even be proved out in this, pre, pre-pregnant women.

He, uh, he said...

Either one of those remarks.

And they said, uh, if that had happened, I have gone back to the participants that would have been burned into my recollection as an extraordinary thing, like you or the rest of us that are in that meeting.

where I was supposed to have said, oh, he says if, no, he doesn't remember being at that meeting.

I'm out of the country.

To a member, he remembers being at that meeting.

The main thing is this, John.

He says it didn't happen.

He was a lawyer since you bought him, I hope.

Now that's, that's Christ's time.

I'm totally, totally sure.

And they said, if that had happened, that would have been burned into my recollection as an extraordinary thing, like you ordered it.

uh all uh uh he says if uh no he doesn't remember being at that meeting because he remembers god damn well remember being excited the main thing is this john and we can meet with the lawyers in dubai and i hope that christ has been totally totally believing don't try to educate god damn ranchers i'm not talking about the morality but i'm talking about the vulnerability sure

Well, you know this.

What?

I know who was in that case.

And so I was able to call the courts.

I know who was in that case.

And so I was able to call the courts.

I don't know.

Man, just finish talking about this to me because I think it's important for you to have a feel for it.

Well, it does.

Somebody put those things in the bag.

I don't know.

about this meeting because I think it's important for you to have appeal for it.

Well, it does.

And also, Dean is the guy that made the call on something coming out of the country.

But the interesting thing about it all is that Friday he called Colson and said, Chuck, you remember a meeting up in John's office where John said so-and-so and D6 and John said send him out of the country, don't you?

And Chuck said, I told him it never happened.

And I didn't raise this with Jeff.

He raised it with me.

And said, I have this funny phone call from this guy.

So he's out around, planning, and he's doing the root of it.

He's planning from flower to flower, planning his time.

So I don't think we're going to... Well, I think you have, in most cases, you've got very clever liars.

Sure.

I told you this before, very clever liars.

Well, yep.

That's why the hell they had him in here.

I don't know.

It's ridiculous.

It's a discussion.

I got trapped.

I said, of course, everybody is going to be involved in this.

There's no bear favor.

I think you slide by that by just saying, stay home.

Don't come to the office.

I said, John, I think it's best that you not come to the office.

I tell you, if you want to, you might do it.

That's what I was saying.

I had a report that had to be done now.

It's about a service subpoena on Dick Howard.

Tell Howard to come talk to you.

I can't have that because you cannot sit there as an agent of the U.S. attorney.

I indicated that already.

The dean will say the same thing you just said, which is I can't prepare my case for the grand jury if I can't work with my files and so forth.

And so if you're telling me not to come in, I'll send a truck over anyway.

Well, there's a question on that.

That's a position out of takeout.

Damn right.

All of our files are yours, and they are not subject to any action that your files aren't subject to.

Do you like that?

No.

Thank you.

Well, he's already made his statement.

It's obvious that, because to the U.S. attorney, it's obvious that he's passed that point.

I don't think they can write a note.

I think it's going to aggravate whatever he says it does.

No sense of doing that.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

We've got to remember that every son of a bitch is guilty.

I don't mean that you can't.

He's going to do anything to save his ass.

That's what it's all about.

On the other hand, you've got to...

Okay, I've got an idea.

That's not present.

That's... You've got to remember that

He's going to piss on others.

He could piss a lot higher.

He could say, well, I told the president about $127,000.

Yep.

And we need $127,000.

He says, well, where are we going to get it?

I don't know.

Of course, I do.

Okay.

I'll tell you how you might be able to handle that.

My word.

FBI has just served a subpoena on our White House police, which asks that they produce the names of people cleared into the White House EOD complex from 12.01 a.m. June 18, 1972 to 11.00 p.m. June 18, 1972.

Where are we now?

What day?

June 18th.

We were in San Clemente.

Really?

Yes.

Florida.

I mean Florida.

I'm sorry.

I think San Clemente.

You were out of, that was the weekend that you went, we flew directly to Grand Canyon, you went to Walkers, and we went over there to keep us game.

Well, maybe that's not a straight thing.

The White House police had notified Fred Fielding of the subpoena.

See, that's your other problem now.

We've got a White House legal case, and you've got no White House legal case.

There's another interesting thing to look at.

As far as the illusion and all, he's Dean's preacher, lives next door to him.

Dean sponsored him.

That doesn't necessarily mean he goes Dean's way.

Fielding is an honorable guy.

Well, why didn't they say this is not going to prejudice you publicly or any of that sort, but I do think that it should not be.

What you want to do is to get him out of the White House and then

Yes, Colson, Colson turned to me first and said, get him out of the fire.

Colson, I'd like to discredit him.

I know, I know.

But he didn't discredit us.

Well, my share of apology, that's fine.

Yeah, but I think you've got to, at some point, like if you want anything else, you've got to face up to the fact that that guy is either a friend or a foe, or a literal foe.

I said, yes.

There was no problem for him to say a lot of things to us over the last couple of weeks, too.

I think, uh, the point is, the point is, if you break it off, then you can go out and screw it up.

No, you can't.

It's not his privilege.

It's yours.

I know it's mine.

But, uh, he screws the privilege, he's finished.

Well, I think you have to charge Henry Peterson, whoever he gets as a man in charge here.

with protecting their privilege.

And then that's got to go down to Silbert.

And Silbert has to be cautious that he is not to go into matters of executive privilege, and he is not to go into matters of national security importance.

Now,

The question comes up, and I don't know how far this will run, but this caper in California, for instance, Colson asked me about this thing of hunts out there, the national security thing.

Well, he just knows about it, I think.

It's lying around somewhere.

But if the question comes up, Colson says, how do I handle it?

I say, Chuck, well,

If I were asked that, I would say that that was a national security project, and I'm not in the position to answer a question on that because I think it falls within the ambit of executive privilege.

I would have to refer it to the president for a waiver of executive privilege on that if he desired to do so.

And he said, well, can I say the same thing?

And I said, well, I don't know whether you can or not.

What would the president say if it's referred to him?

And I said, I don't know.

I haven't asked him.

That's what I would say.

Okay.

Can I tell him that for you?

All right.

That's what it was.

I doubt Dean about that.

I don't see Dean and Colson ever track very well together at all times.

Well, whoever operates this at the Justice Department has to be told that the inquiry must not jeopardize your privilege.

Someday, they're going to try and put you in a crunch spot.

And they'll put a question to me

And I'll say, I can't take that question.

And then I'll be back to you.

And it's going to be hard.

No, for me at all.

It's national security.

It's a national security area.

That is a national security problem.

Or if it's something that you want to discuss directly, I'll just cold-cock that.

I don't think anybody's going to try to challenge that.

I mean, here's what the crowd says about it.

Right?

I think we've got to hear what he says.

I'm not sure what he says there.

Yeah, but boy, he's just got to be tuned with that argument.

Maybe.

Now, he has to sing off the low before you get to that argument.

$127,000 that we had together.

be able to get it or something like that.

I don't know how that, why it wasn't that way.

We were still working on money for Hunt.

What, what was it that we were?

I don't know how that went.

That was, that was the one that, that Bittman got to, to Dean on.

Yeah, Dean told me.

And Dean really panted on it.

He was very concerned.

I came in and told him.

He professed to be concerned because Bittman's threat was that Hunt said, if you don't get it to me, I'm going to

Tell him all the sneaky things I did for Earl.

And when Dean hit Earl on that, Earl, his immediate reaction was, let him go ahead.

There's nothing he can hang me on.

Great.

And Dean just left that answer when it went on worrying about the money.

Told me about it.

Told you about it?

Told me about it?

A whole point.

I was in here.

He told you.

Went off good.

What did we say?

Remember, he said, I said, how much is it going to cost to keep these things?

I said, a million dollars.

You can't say it's a million dollars or maybe ten million dollars once you're into that.

And that we ought not to be in this.

And then we're left with, oh, we can't do anything about it anyway.

We don't have any money.

And it isn't a question to be directed here.

This is something that relates to Mitchell's problem.

And Errol Oden has no problem with the thing with money.

And Errol Oden said, Christ, if we're going to get into blackmail, the hell with it.

Good.

We're black.

Thank God you were in there, Errol.

Do you remember the conversation?

Yes, sir.

I didn't tell him to go get the money, did I?

No.

No, we didn't.

You didn't either, did you?

Absolutely not.

I said, you've got to talk potential.

That's just something you've got to work out with Mitchell, not here.

There's nothing we can do about it here.

I think we've got to break this record on that.

There's a couple of complications.

I just can't conceive.

That a guy, he may, I can see him using it as a threat.

I cannot see him sinking low enough to use that.

I just, you know, I must admit, the guy has really turned into an unbelievable disaster.

But I can't, I just, people don't, he's not an un-American, and I think so.

I know I did.

I'll tell you, during that period, he busted his ass trying to work this out, and it wore him through appraisal, and I think it probably wore him past the point of rationality.

I think he may now be in a mental state that's causing him to do things that, when he sobers up, that he's going to be very disturbed about with himself.

Also, he's probably been a very, very clever and true lawyer, and a shopper.

I think that's part of the problem.

He's been a very loyal lawyer, and he's very well paid.

John, I can't believe, is a basically dishonorable guy.

I think there's no question John is a strong, self-promoting, self-motivating person.

Yeah, in that conversation, I was pretty...

You explored in that conversation the possibility of whether such kinds of money could be raised.

You said, well, Christ, we ought to be able to raise money like that.

How much money is involved?

He said, well, it could be a million dollars over the next few years.

I jumped in and said, that's ridiculous.

You can't say, maybe you say a million, you can say two or ten.

But then we got to the black belt.

He said, when you start down the path of black belt, that's constant escalation.

That's my only conversation with regard to that.

They could jump up and then say to us, well, that was morally wrong.

What you should have said is that black men were wrong, not that it's too costly.

Oh, at that point, we got into the other question.

We went into the investigation, but we were the answer.

You see, my wife, we were there in the business of the, this was one of Dean's.

He was, was it after that we sent him to Camp David?

You sent him to Camp David on about the 20th.

I would like to know with regard to that conversation.

That took place about the 23rd, that is his trip to Camp David, about the 23rd of March.

When was that trip?

Do you have any idea?

No idea.

I don't know.

Well, the date.

Well, you'll know the date of your meeting here.

Well, I didn't.

I suppose then we should have cut it off and shut it off.

Because later on, you had a care office, and Mitchell said that was taken care of.

The next day.

I had to find a date by that.

And Dean was there.

Dean was there and said, what about this money for hunting?

Was Dean there?

No.

What happened was, Earl and Dean and Mitchell and I were in the office, in my office.

And we were discussing other matters.

And in the process of it, Mitchell said, let me raise one point.

He turned to Dean and said, let me raise another point.

Have you taken care of the other problem, the Muntz problem, something like that?

I don't know how he referred to it, but we all knew instantly what he meant.

And Dean kind of looked a little flustered and said, well, no.

I mean, I don't know where that is or something.

And Mitchell said, well, I guess it's taken care of.

And so we assumed from that that Mitchell had taken care of it.

And there was no further squeak out of it, so I now do assume Mitchell took care of it.

The problem I have there is I said by Mitchell and say LaRue, because I understand that LaRue was Mitchell's agent on that.

Yeah, because I understand what I meant is, and I'm just worried about whether I'm just seeing where Dean's lines of attack are.

And you're saying, did I know about that?

I did.

Yeah, there's no question.

So yes, there was talk about it and so forth, and took care of it, but, uh, but you had, uh, but on the other hand, you made the case that it's presidential.

In this office, not the other one.

Not in your office.

Okay.

In the other office, the question of the track thing and the specifics never arose.

There again, Dean is the agent on it.

Dean's coming in and saying, what should I do?

Dean's the agent on all of this.

That's where my line goes.

All the input to me about the $350 came from Dean, and all the output came from Dean.

Only because Dean was the one that said, what about we need $350 for the rest of this line?

No, they didn't come that way.

Dean said they need money for the defendants.

They're thieves.

And it was always put that way.

It was always discussed.

That's why I want that line up.

And get a lawyer.

And I said to Dean at that time, we've got a situation here.

We've got the $305,000, $350,000, $328,000 in cash that we need to get turned back to the committee.

Apparently they have a need for money.

So we have a coincidence of

ought to be able to work out some way to get them to take the cash.

And that will take care of our need and apparently help meet their need.

And he went back to Mitchell, and Mitchell wouldn't do it.

And then they agreed to take $40,000, which they did.

And shortly thereafter, they agreed to take the rest, which they did.

You'd think if you checked with H. Everett, there was some before the election, and some after.

There was not before the election.

That was a story somebody had seen.

Strong says it was in late November.

Incidentally, remember you told me that Strong had gone over there with Colson's partner and that the judge wouldn't take him.

It turned out that was Howard who went over with Dick Howard, who went over with one of Colson's partners.

And the U.S. attorney kicked up a fuss about it.

saying that there might be communication between the partner and Colson.

And so... Now, Colson has pitched me to retain his partner, which I think would be a mistake.

Yeah.

I don't think so.

Because it would create an identity between me and Colson that I don't feel comfortable with.

I don't want you to do that.

Unless you can or not, you'd be out of your mind to do it.

Don't get in there with Colson.

He'll defend himself.

Obviously, Colson sees that as a way of getting in and tying to the blood cult.

Sure.

We should not give Cole some reason to get squeamish, though.

No, I'm cultivating him.

Oh, certainly.

I'm cultivating him.

I'm keeping him on the team.

He feels that there's a coincidence of interest between you and me and him.

Right, that's fine.

He doesn't consider continuing to deal with him.

Right.

I'm talking to him all the time.

I'm back on the decision to get him back.

Well, first, what do you think is better today?

I would say yes.

Well, let me argue that you should.

If it is a carefully limited statement, I think... No, sir.

And I think it should be a very tight statement.

It's very conservative.

Well, at least you should

think it through as you usually do so that you can stay away from the soft voices.

But I think broadly across the country, people are waiting to see your face on the evening news talking about the Watergate case.

And making your assurances of good intentions.

As you left the boat last night, I've been thinking about it.

He totally rules out at 9 o'clock, just an hour.

He says, for Christ's sake, he says, don't make it the only story.

Tom, it'll be the only story, Tom.

He said, for three or four months.

And that'd be fun.

That's all right.

We just better make it.

Don't let the president make it.

Don't make it.

You know where the Watergate story is in the Washington Post today?

Page 19.

When you wish it to die out.

Well, I don't know.

We swear to have died right now.

But I don't know.

Why don't we?

And it'll be page 19 in five months from now.

If we handle it right.

Let's go ahead.

I suggested having Peterson stand by.

I don't think that's a good idea.

No, no, no.

I should say, should make the statement OK. John, let's come back to the business here.

Let's come back to the business of the, which is the play of the White House leaders.

Does that work for you?

Well, I think, in view of the foregoing, in view of all that's gone, and all that's been said, I think if you can get the result of having Dean out of his office, and I wouldn't worry about the files.

I think you could put it on a basis that if he needs a file, he could get it on loan, so that you'd at least be able to monitor what he was getting.

I think that... Well,

He could arrange it so he did.

That you would say that in view of your relationship with the U.S. Attorney's Office, I just don't think it's prudent for you to be on the ground.

And you're going to have to work from someplace else.

And I don't think there's any appearance problem because you have been for a month anyway.

Yeah, it won't be noticed.

If we are asked in the press room

what your status is, we'll finesse it.

And the question will come, well, has John Dean been placed on leave?

No.

Has John Dean been fired?

No.

And you could say to him, if you don't bring it up, we won't.

If this leaves, it'll leave from you because nobody's going to know it.

And as far as Bob and John are concerned,

I will make an appropriate arrangement with them.

But I cannot be in the position of having you dictate to me what it should be.

More than that, I think you could argue with me that the transition from John Dean being away from here

And the transition of home to being away from here is a very different kind of thing.

That's right.

And so it would have to be something that you consider appropriate.

We're not asking anybody to resign, John.

Because I think that would prejudice their rights.

And taking a formal leave.

All right, fine, you can do that.

But if you're rejecting the garment proposal, everybody take a leave until the letter is cleared.

And I met it out with him a long ago.

Well, I think a leave is the same thing as being fired.

In this context.

Prior to charges being fired.

Prior to charges.

When you have charges.

That's typical.

You know, now, here's the point of information.

Here's the point.

Let me tell you what's going to happen.

Well, in my view, and by charges, I don't mean indictments.

I understand that.

But when they...

When they finally make their deal with McGruder, which is part of the policy, fixing the third, you've got to keep out of D.C. jail.

They're going to take you into open court.

This is their deal.

And because the record question was mentioned to John last night, they're going to make this a statement.

Now, I assume then the charges will be made, at least as far as McGruder's concerned.

They said Laguna makes charges against me.

That's really interesting.

Bob, I don't know whether he does or not.

Let's be damn sure.

When he ran into Perry that day, he was certainly going to say that he was involved.

And he'll say Strong was involved.

And who's Strong?

Well, Strong was Mr. Hall.

But my prediction is it will never, if the judge says, well, did Mr. Haldeman tell you to do anything or this or that, he'll say, no, sir, he was never involved in this.

Flatly.

He says, he told me that's what he would say.

And he told me that's what he would say.

He told John that's what he would say in front of his lawyers.

And then what he had said.

And he flatly says that's what's the truth.

And it is what's the truth.

So your view, John, is that you know that you've got to look at it from another point.

I'm being eaten away.

Then I say, look, I need to be so impaired.

No, I don't expect to be eaten away.

I think when I get hit on anything publicly, let's say Magruder does name me.

Let's say Magruder does name me publicly.

Somebody that's known publicly.

As soon as anything is known publicly, my view would be that I should then, I should request you to give me a leave of absence so that I can deal with this matter until it's cleared up.

It'll depend a little bit, I would expect, on degree.

If it's a Jack Anderson column.

No newspaper.

Now, another point that I made, the relation that I have now with this case, is that suppose the deputy, the assistant attorney general comes in, and as he asks me, he says, well, Mr. Grutter, I, he has told me this, that Mr. Grutter and Dean have made charges.

Right, what he has.

And why is, his argument is, now you have knowledge, sir, and the U.S. president should act on that knowledge.

I'm telling you now that those charges are in the possession of the government.

That's what I'm saying.

Okay, but what's his... Ben, if you do that, I happen to know what his motive is, and I'm sure I'll use it.

All right, you say, Mr. Assistant Attorney General, I want to explain my policy, please, so that you'll know what our relationship is.

My policy is that I will immediately...

suspended on the leave.

Anybody against the formal charges are filed by stipend or information.

By information meaning that they don't go before the grand jury.

Yeah, in other words, formal charges are filed.

The second that happens, those men will go on leave.

This is a town that is so full of wild charges that if I operated on the other basis, even if those were brought to me by 20 bishops and an attorney general, I couldn't

These Hispanic people around here are a place that looks like a piece of Swiss cheese.

But let me suggest you do this.

You go ahead and diligently pursue the Haldeman and Ehrlich cases, because I need to know.

And if you come to me and say that you filed charges, then I'll have really no discretion.

If you come to me and say that you are going to indict me... Criminal charges.

Criminal charges.

Then I'll, at that time, move in, sir.

Yeah.

Before or Dean or anybody else.

Right.

But I can't treat them any different than anybody else.

And you have brought me basically a ton of corroborated charges at this point.

You've said so yourself that you aren't going to be able to deal with Dean on an uncorroborated...

I feel comfortable with that.

I feel comfortable.

But if you lay out the general ground rules first... What is basically?

I got that.

What basically, John?

What the hell is the...

They're writing the New York Times editorial, which is that this is a terrible cancer at the heart of the presidency, and that there must be drastic surgery, and in a case like this you lean over backwards, and viral, and so forth, which I'm sure will be editorial in many, many newspapers.

that the dean has raised serious charges and so on and so forth, and you'll hear a lot of that.

Maybe the thing to do is for Ziegler, if he gets a question about suspension or firing, to say, this is the president's general policy without regard to individuals.

Any individual who is found by the grand jury.

Okay, why don't I say that?

That's fine.

All right, I think I've got the message.

Could you go right this way?

brief, brief, brief statement, you know, that I can do this here.

Or if you have one, get it back to me quickly.

I'd have to do this at 3 today.

How much time have I got?

You've got about 45 minutes to an hour.

An hour and a half.

I don't know.

They've only scheduled a posting.

He can make it four.

And that's a briefing at four.

Yeah, that's right.

You ought to tell him now that you're going to do it.

I didn't know.

I've got to get Ron in and put him over here.

Yeah.

Review this and see whether it's on track or not.

Just talk to Ron.

Right.

Sure.

Any questions about my theory then?

I wonder if we should talk to them about how to operate in the next couple of weeks.

Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Now, with us out of the play here for a couple of weeks, you're going to need a different mode of operation on the domestic side.

And Ken is fully abreast of everything.

And I think you ought to just call him direct when you have something.

I will.

Well, I'll do that just like you do.

I've got to rely on you to wear two hats for a while.

My office can run itself and cover your bases.

You can deal with Steve.

On a scheduled basis, you'd be better off to deal with Parker, but you haven't started doing it, so you probably don't want to.

the week review, and I think he would talk to me about it.

I'd like to get acquainted with him anyway.

Parker knows the reasons behind it.

John and I were talking about that.

Let me ask you, let us not overlook one greater.

Let us suppose no charges are filed.

And basically,

I'm trying to put Bob in the worst position.

Then Bob, I then should date with you.

Do you agree, Bob?

Sure.

They make that kind of charge, because the heat would really go on.

But in John's case, they make the D6 charge.

That's cut.

I don't think that, I take leave on that.

Up to you.

No, I think that's a difference in degree.

Bob, I think that each of those is something that we have to deal with at the time.

That's right.

In the context of the time, because I don't think you can anticipate now what that context will be.

You don't know what the newspaper stories will be.

For instance, right now, and that's another argument against Duke taking any action regarding me, particularly, is that I'm not innocent at all in the public line.

And it would be startling as hell if all of a sudden we did something about this.

Another reason for not going to Park Road is basically the...

He wants me, John.

I think what we do, I think I will make a brief statement today, and I was wondering how late I can make it.

You can make it at 4 or 4.15.

We'll call them in.

Do you think I should have it?

Let me ask you this.

Do you want me on television speaking?

Yes, sir.

That would be my preference.

Okay.

I'll just walk out.

I think, depending on the statement, they'll get it to the lab.

Oh, yeah, Ron, I need that.

Yeah, where's page one?

Good work.

I wonder, John, where...

I know, but I wonder if we're putting, unless you're sacking, basically, if we're putting too much emphasis on the fact that someone else is in that office.

I understand.

I'm going to abide by what you think.

I'm just thinking of what it's worth for us to get them out of that goddamn office.

I believe in the Jews.

Well, the alternative is somehow or another to pass the word to everybody in the place that he's a pariah.

That's right.

I don't know how you do that.

I mean, people like the White House police, if they get a subpoena, they shouldn't ask him what to do.

The Secret Service, a guy like Dick Howard, who should they ask?

Good question.

Like Moore acting counsel?

Moore would have a funny assumption what to do in the White House.

He'd get very good judgment.

He'd get very good judgment and absolutely no procedure in the White House.

Why aren't you?

He's worse.

Dealing?

Well, let's see.

Now, you can let Fielding be the operative, but say that he can take no action on anything without checking with Moore.

How does that sound to you?

That's good.

In this case, that I think would be more...

Fielding is to be the front man as deputy counsel, but he is to report to and to... And I can also doubt the concurrence of Dick Moore.

Just any, uh...

Uh...

If you get him physically moved out of the White House, I don't think it's worth...

well if he's here people will go to him for advice i'm just sure i've totally not given the advice that it's not going to have anything to do with this case

All right.

I don't know.

Maybe I'm being unduly harsh, and maybe the negatives are more than the positives in it.

It just seems to me that it can be done without breaking any eggs.

I can just say, well, people are coming in.

They're going to their White House police now.

That's happening now.

I think if he's there, it's going to look strange if he doesn't take it.

And it puts him in an impossible conflict of interest situation.

Yeah.

That's the problem.

He knows what's coming in, what questions are coming, and then he... All right.

The second point on him now, with regard to Peterson, that the...

I better get him in this time.

Yeah.

And the no immunity thing.

And you just let me say, well, this is the way I'm going to handle it.

I can't let people go because the charges are made until they're correct.

That's my decision.

So, in a second, I thought over the immunity thing.

I want nobody to know I don't staff the immunity.

I don't want anybody showing that consideration when I work.

It's been a long order of demonstration.

How can I say that I think I cannot be in the position where I'm doing anything so far?

This is a very important third, and I direct everybody to cooperate.

I already helped.

Now, yes, sir.

And I think that the fourth point that you should cover with him at the earliest possible time is that if I'm before that grand jury and I am asked about Dean's information within the grand jury, I will have to say,

The dean told me that it came from Peterson.

And there's no point in your getting way out by saying out here to the press, I'm relying on Henry Peterson as my good right hand, and then have him compromise at a later time.

I think you must, from here on, shot across the bottom.

But also, one thing I would just urge, that you don't, from now on, until this is totally done, which may be never, express it.

confidence in anybody.

Just for God's sake, don't say, I know this guy's doing the thing right, or anything else.

And that applies to me, to Ehrman.

Yes, but don't say it.

It just doesn't serve the cause properly, and I don't think you should say it.

I think it's a very

And you should know about Henry Peterson or John Dean or anybody else.

Ron.

Basically, Ron and all that.

And Ron must not say it either.

You don't get Ron, Connie, into saying, well, I have full confidence in Mr. What's-His-Name, and it'll all work out.

I got a name today, and I don't know anything about this fellow.

But let me advance his name to you as an alternative.

There's a lawyer here in town by the name of Herbert Miller.

You may know it.

He was head of the criminal division of the Justice Department, John Peterson has.

He was there from 61 through 67 under Kennedy and Johnson.

But he's a Republican.

Now, it may be possible to get a fellow like that to substitute

Why is this going too fast?

So you call in a substitute, so he's got to learn the goddamn case, and he's got to make the card.

Okay, I use it, Sam.

He reviews it.

He gets a complete file with the pros and the cons, and he goes through it, and he draws on seven years' experience.

And maybe he comes over to you, and he says, I've got to call this shot, and I wonder if you have anything to add.

Yes, but as your counsel, he has no control over the prosecution.

Right.

And he's feeding me a bunch of baloney, in my opinion.

Right.

that very good treatment over there.

They mercilessly laughed.

He told me the contrary.

He said Strong just got the hell out of him.

Well, he did.

I mean, he was absolutely astonished.

He came out of there and he said it was just beyond belief.

He told me that.

Threatened his life practically and told him he better hire the best possible counsel that would provide for support for his wife and children because he would be going to jail.

And that he was...

I have no doubt that they savaged Dean the same way, and they scored on him.

Well, all I'm saying is that I don't think, in terms of the kind of stuff they're talking

that it's all that complicated for an experienced man to pick up.

So I wouldn't want you to think that this guy's indispensable.

Yeah, all right.

But should I make that decision today?

Well, every day that goes by is going to make it that much tougher on somebody new coming in.

And you've got a guy in here that I wouldn't trust, knowing what I know.

And maybe you can, maybe you can...

This guy gets relieved of the thing?

And he says, well, I told the president that he ought to fire all of them early when he fired me.

I don't think that he would say that.

He's a pro.

He's been around this town a long time.

And he knows that if you said that, you would come right back and say, no, the reason that I fired him is that I have reason to believe that he's responsible for leaks out of the grand jury.

And that would destroy him.

Okay, shall I first get the speaker back?

Yeah, right back.

Should I get Dean down first?

I would.

I'm here to make a statement that it's not going to refer to him.

Or anybody.

Or anybody, and that you're going to deal with the people in the White House on an individual basis, and the individual basis you're dealing with him is going to be measured.

Yeah.

What they're trying to do is put him in the hands of an attorney who will deal for immunity.

They're trying to get him to make the same play as Dean.

I have no doubt that they savaged Dean the same way.

And they scored on him.

Well, all I'm saying is that I don't think in terms of the kind of stuff they're talking about down there that it's all that complicated for an experienced man to pick up.

So I wouldn't want you to

to think that this guy's indispensable.

Yeah, all right, but should I make that decision today?

Well, every day that goes by is going to make it that much tougher on somebody new coming in, and you've got a guy in here that I wouldn't trust, knowing what I know.

And maybe you can, maybe you can...

This guy gets relieved of the thing, and he says, well, I told the president that he ought to fire all of them early when he fired me.

He's been around this town a long time, and he knows that if you said that, you would come right back and say, no, the reason that I fired him is that I have reason to believe that he's responsible for leaks out of the grand jury.

And that would destroy him.

Okay.

Shall I first get this paper back?

Yeah, right now.

Should I get an email from you?

You're going to make a statement that it's not going to refer to him?

Yeah.

And that... Or anybody.

Or anybody, and that you're going to deal with the people in the White House on an individual basis, and the individual basis you're dealing with him is going to be mentioned.

I think Peterson would call maybe first.

Yeah, maybe I'd go to Peterson first.

Just call Peterson.

Call him immediately.