Conversation 902-003

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Yes, sir.

I need to know.

Well, the problem basically is this.

This is the ultimate case.

Do you remember our late, dear, hearty friend, Edward Hoover, you may recall, did not want to get into the Ellsford case.

Now, there was a personal reason.

It involved Marx.

He's one of his closest friends.

It's Marx who, not the Marx president, but Twight Henders.

Marx's daughter was married to Ellsford.

And Hoover gets ticked and screamed and says, I guess I'm going to investigate this thing and I can't do it.

I mean, this is at least what we got through Mitchell.

Under the certain chances, under the certain chances, an investigation was undertaken with a very, very small...

That's where the hunt grew.

Nothing in terms of or aliens or anything was approved.

But seeing what these crazy bastards have done since, you can see what it is now.

The investigation also, and this is the hopeful that I'm part of the prosecution,

Didn't do it.

They didn't do it.

I mean, all they got, they got most of the spirit of the papers at Ellsberg had psychiatric problems at Ellsberg, which we could have learned from Henry Kissinger, who was one of the students at one time.

Well, by the time I talked to you, the advice I made is this.

None of that went to the prosecution.

Then, after that, finally Hoover got into it.

Now, when Hoover got into it, you should know he wired that in.

He did.

There's no question about that.

I don't know who he worked with, but I mean, the National Security caps were used at that time.

And then, as you know, for the hull that all rose up, we knocked off all of those caps.

except for the bank jobs we don't have a seizure you're quite aware of the fact we do a lot of illegal things in this field yes sir yes and i don't want you to know i want you to know that my purpose i have a problem calling me illegal in this field my purpose in hunting calling you was simply to say that it is it was a national security investigation it is not related in any way to the watergate thing and that uh the purpose of it well is there any other

You know, I can't stay away from that, which I don't know.

Is there any other national security stuff that we could inadvertently get into, Drew Hunt?

Yes, you could get into other things.

Nothing involving bugging, apparently.

A tribe, for example, on one occasion, he was, it was basically the whole Ellsberg period, you know, when this place was leaking, like I said, you remember Kissinger's, the national security.

We had a horrible time.

And, frankly, the country was in jeopardy because I, it was in peril in our situation for our governments and a lot of others.

And I'd get Uber in and I'd say, God damn it, we've got to, well, what you got him in?

I got him in once myself, you know, all over the place.

But he hated to get anything involved in the crisis.

So when you, I think though, you probably can't, over the years, you should know this, but the situation of the crisis is amazing.

I can't tell you.

I remember the entire, I remember.

I know who you're speaking to.

I can't go on.

I can't tell you for years because he said it's Hooper.

I know when I first came to the office, he used to send us over here to the carpet.

He used to love that sort of thing.

uh that is also just well i should tell you this president just coincidentally since it transferred internal security to me uh yes and uh but but also uh i don't know the authority is uh runs from you to the attorney jack sir the way something's being exercised is almost an application uh so the way some of it's being exercised it's only an application yes and i've just set up

I'm not talking about the national, just stuff in the country.

I'm talking about even foreign intelligence stuff.

I'm holding some of them up because they're being approved by a deputy somebody over at the State Department.

This is very good.

He had the president approve this thing.

I understand.

I don't want to know about it, Frank.

Anyway, there was that.

Now, you've also heard about Joe Kraft.

If you read that column, that was a little bit about, I think, I don't know,

But what it involved were leaks of the National Security documents, where it got into grass, and so forth and so on.

Nothing happened as a result, except I think they fired somebody over here.

Now that's, I just wanted you to know, but it's minuscule compared to what Johnson was doing.

You know what I mean?

As you know, it was very heavy, Bill Sturge.

Very, very heavy.

If you just ask Bill Sullivan, he's written memorandum to me, and it's pretty shocking how crazy he was.

One average speaker at the Democratic committee, and also a Buckeye client during the campaign.

Now my point is, that doesn't justify anything now, but in the case of the nun, then you should know that when he was at the White House, in addition to working in the field of drugs, he worked on this particular activity.

And Liddy worked with him, as I understand.

I think Liddy did, too.

This I have found out, frankly.

I really didn't know this myself until this case came out.

I said, what in the name of God was I doing?

I understand not what he was doing.

And I would have proved it.

Yeah, I would have proved it at the time.

Because we had nothing that we could get out of Hoover.

Hoover did pick up the investigation after that and did a hell of a good job.

Hoover did recommend that they did the prosecution on Ellsberg.

Which I think is probably the state.

I don't know whether they're going to make it or not.

I don't know either.

I hope so.

Incidentally, yes.

I want you to understand, I will never use the word national security unless it is.

As far as Watergate is concerned or any of that crap, you've just burned their ass.

Like when I called you the other day over this train, I'm not going to let you take the stone on the turn.

And that's what I've said to you and I, that I don't understand.

But on national security, there's only two places to have your name.

It's very important in terms of privilege.

that you, that you have to have one, any conversations with the President are obviously privileged.

Any questions?

That should be, that should be something that everybody should do, should have in mind.

Any conversation in the national security area, but you can ask, I don't have anybody around here now that you haven't, you haven't, you haven't seen on the carpet, you've got to hold attention on the carpet, so just ask me.

It's a national security act, but I do tell you that in this field, Jim Hunt was involved in the Ellsberg case, and he was involved in what they called the plumbing operation.

And basically, it was leased from the National Security Council, which appeared in the columns.

That's all.

And it did not involve any, as I understand, electronic eavesdropping, but it involved a hell of a lot of investigation.

One hell of a lot.

Not as much as I know about it this time.

I don't know if Dean made a point to me for this because he was very much, you know, I mean, he was certainly in charge of the...

of this kind of activity.

And he may be familiar with it, he may not be, but I've tried to get this sorted out.

I just haven't checked out the ground where we are to now.

What did they do, and what is there in it?

As far as I'm concerned, anything can come out, but I don't want anything coming out of the Ellsberg.

We had to do it.

I don't want anything coming out of what we were doing with Ecclesys.

I don't want anything coming out of what we were doing with the other systems.

It flopped over with Uber.

That didn't look very good with Uber.

I don't want the Bureau anymore to die.

I'm just hoping for the day that the man I have in mind with that job gets away from when he's present because it's like, you've got to get the man in there and fast.

And I'm going to clean everybody out of that here on the second level.

Everybody.

Well, it needs getting to, as you know, people who have hurt you for your job, I didn't.

deal with you where you ought to be chained at this point.

It's not a job anybody should run for, Mr. President.

What's that?

It's not a job anybody should ask for or run for.

Responsibilities are almost as great as your own.

You should know that I felt that if you were, you came highly committed to me.

Strangely enough, you drew committee.

Mitchell.

Mitchell said Henry Peterson would be the best guy for the job.

Even in his present difficulty, I'm glad he's not.

No, well, it's that old man.

It's a very important man.

But that's all that I wanted to know.

Otherwise, I'm not getting on.

Mr. President, the other day I indicated we had a problem with leaks.

You know we do.

Well, it was shocking when you received Strong's testimony, not his latest testimony, from the U.S. Attorney.

Well, I think we're going to have to do something verbatim.

Verbatim.

I don't know if that's a national fact or a reality of this.

Yes, sir.

I don't want to make a verdict.

John Wilson.

Oh yes, I know him very well.

Yes, indeed so.

He thinks this is a very, very vulnerable point in their case.

Well, you know, we're very concerned.

Our case.

There's somebody there, it's either somebody in the U.S. Attorney's Office reporting something to the U.S. Attorney's Office.

They don't do that bullshit.

This sort of thing comes from somebody there.

It's either Titus or it's, what's his name?

Silver.

Silver, or Glantzer.

Glantzer is a notorious leader.

I'll tell you, I've been reluctant to divert anything from this effort.

But I have another group, entirely apart from the prosecution group, now exploring what we can do, whether we can get a temporary injunction or a restraining order.

We're going to have to do something at the prison, and it's getting too bad.

Restrain the reporter.

Well, you know, that...

If this is a case by God, I can't do it.

You have a right to do it.

No, sir.

It's a national security case.

What's that?

I'm trying to make a note of this.

I didn't know when you said the release of the Granger, what you're talking about, and I picked up and saw that Anderson was running, and I thought, Burt Baker?

Burt Baker, of course, I understand, was active.

I don't know.

I haven't talked to him, so I don't know that he wasn't active.

It's accurate, too.

I haven't compared it to...

Does it concern Titus?

Well, sure.

Does it concern Silver?

Does it concern Blaser?

Yes, sir.

You sure?

I've had them all in.

You know, we're talking...

I've been lied to a little around here.

That's why I've gone after these people, and we're going to find the truth here.

Well, we're going to have to...

They have the only copy of the Grainger.

They have the only copy of the Grainger stuff.

I'm talking about the reporter service.

We've had your agents over there yesterday.

We've got to do something.

The grand jury report.

There's a private reporting service.

I'm not sure which one.

There are two or three in town that we use.

I don't know.

I mean, a couple of other things.

Yes.

On this business of the so-called privilege and so forth, let me just say, let you handle it.

I mean, I can't come over there.

I mean, I have got to be counsel or anything.

But you use your judgment on it.

The U.S. attorneys have got to be instructed that in the national security area and in conversations with the president, that's the only thing I consider privilege.

I mean, and also the other two.

You understand?

You don't think that's a proper position to tell me something?

I don't have any problem with that.

And if the problem in that area comes up that I can't resolve, I'll just have to come back to you.

I told you what I was for, so you could see what was done in that area.

Now,

Let me come to the other thing.

I still have not asked Dean, I still have not, have not, as you know, I felt that it was not the proper thing to ask Dean for a resignation, and for reasons I've already told you all, and I've already told you, and I've already discussed them, and that's, as far as I'm concerned, that position is all right.

Well, I don't think, I mean, whether you would accept it, but I mean in terms of the prosecution.

Yes, it's all right.

On Dean, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the,

Magruder's a possibility.

The story itself says...

The story of what I have gathered is inaccurate in one respect.

John Dee, John Dee, throughout this period, up until...

I've asked him, I've asked him the period since I got into this, right after the Vietnam War.

I've had him in my phone.

at least 10 hours.

I said, John, I said, was anybody in the White House, including yourself, did any of you know of this?

Did any of you participate?

He said no.

So, if that's what he told you, as far as his prior participation is concerned, he knew of meetings, but he thought it was turned off.

Now that's what he tells me.

Does he change his story now?

Well, basically that's what he tells us.

The point is that nobody, as I indicated before, nobody exercised any initiative and said to ensure that it was turned on.

Let me ask you about John Dean.

John Dean's report to me, and what he said, and what I would say, repeat his comment, and I wouldn't make that statement.

I didn't know what to ask about it.

That was based on Dean's oral report.

Mr. President, he told the same thing to me repeatedly.

Did he?

Yeah, well, of course, our conversation is throughout this whole thing.

This was heard.

When did he tell you that?

You understand?

This is what gets me today.

And I think he had it at the best of intentions.

I think he was concerned about Mitchell, but I don't know.

He said he just didn't want to open it up at all.

But he said no one in the White House was involved.

Now, that, however, could be precisely true.

Yet he wasn't telling what he knew about Mitchell.

Well, that's right.

What did you ask about him?

Of course, I was dealing with him all along in this thing.

Sure.

And I would say to him, John, I know... See, you had an obligation.

He was telling you something that all of our early winter mentors and volunteers told me.

Well, he didn't tell me any of that stuff.

I would say, John, are you sure?

I don't know what you're doing with this information.

Are you sure that it's not getting out?

And he would say...

He never identified you.

He would say, Henry, this information that you give me doesn't go anyplace but up.

Well, up to me meant only early in the whole of the interview, which was perfect where I was made.

Oh, I'm talking about, yeah.

Oh, subsequent... Oh, information against the Granger.

No, information on the status of the investigation.

Oh, that's right.

That's what I'm talking about is something else.

Throughout your investigation during these months, we were relying on the...

You must have asked Dean whether or not anybody from the White House is involved.

You didn't.

And he said no.

What did he say about himself?

Well, I never asked him the question.

You just assumed he was.

No, I would say John.

It didn't matter to the White House.

That's right.

He would say, I can assure you, nobody at the White House is involved.

You see, the point that I think is very important, and I'm going to say about the Department of Justice, Christ Almighty, that we all, that why didn't we check the accuracy of what Dean was doing?

You see,

He was named in the investigation for us, personally.

He said no one in the White House is involved.

Told you the same thing?

Yes, sir.

Up until when?

Well, up until when?

Well, until this.

Of course not.

We're trying to deal for him.

Let me say on that score, I don't know what you can do against the situation I have.

You just have to do whatever you think is right.

And like I said, the only problem I have on the immunity side, the problem I have to say when you come, that is, how the hell is it going to look?

Mr. President, I'm going to just put it off.

Yeah.

And hoping that additional evidence would come in.

From other people.

That will make our bargaining position with Dean better.

And then we can drive a harder bargaining.

On our conversation last night, I'm getting a memorandum, which I'll make available to you, on what has been extended to Dean up to this point.

They tell me that his lawyer fully understands that no promise of immunity in any shape or form has been extended to Dean as of this time.

And that what... Let me understand.

Let me say one thing.

i am not i i am not suggesting to you that you don't grant the enemy because of my i'm afraid that dean was telling two different stories let me tell you what you've got i i i know this

He told me, and Tyler kept asking, he was advising us as to what was going on during this period.

And I had to sit right in that chair.

I said, John, what's the story?

He said, what's the deal?

I said, it's over.

He said, he did something.

He thinks Mitchell and McGrew has told me about that.

He said, that is what I believe.

But even then, they told me the same thing.

I said, can you say, as a matter of fact, that Mitchell will do this?

He said, no.

He said, can you say, as a matter of fact, that McGrew did it?

He said McGruder may have approved, but he says McGruder may not have known about this or that or the other.

But there, I think he was being a little, shall we say.

I don't have any problem with what you're saying.

If I reached the point where I would think, you know, frankly, I would come to you and say, Mr. President, we're at odds.

I can't do it.

You know, I don't think that.

We're trying to get the problem in this case.

My problem is establishing the credibility of McGruder.

and strong and deep.

And that's what's taking us so long.

Now, Magruder and Strawn are in some conflict.

You know, I'm trying to work out to put them both before on lie detector.

I don't have all that much credit and faith in it, but it... You can do that, can't you?

Yes, sir.

If they're willing.

Not without their consent, of course.

But...

I thought Colson was stupid if he was in a lie detector test.

Jesus Christ.

I mean, that's just another thing that...

I'm a little bit overreacting.

Well, it's like, it looks as if...

I'm, I'm, I couldn't be a greater friend of Chuck's, but I think his lawyers give you bad advice, because what the hell?

In effect, if you don't cover all the questions in here, you look mean.

That's right.

Well, we've got the very key questions on Regruder and Strong, with respect to Holbeck.

Yeah.

That's what scares all of us.

There are a few questions there.

What are the differences in the sense?

Well, Strawn says Holden got the budget, but he didn't know anything about it.

In essence, they're content.

He didn't know whether or not the budget included money.

That's right.

And when Reuter says he was given a product of the intercepts.

Did he say he didn't get the budget?

What about the budget money?

When Grutter says that, too.

When Grutter says, oh, it's not the budget, plus... Plus...

I don't know what it was.

Yes, plus the interception.

Strawn says, no, you know, we're going to contract with them both on lie detectors and see if we can get... Have you got anybody else?

Tough case.

Well, you know... Coming back to the earlier thing, you're still on the point of what happened to the...

what you call the deep six, correct?

That's all we have, yes, sir.

Except one thing, I think, that whether he might have had knowledge that they were trying to help the defendants.

Yes.

That was something that was, for example, Dean told me, told me this is really what triggered my own investigation, frankly, getting Dean out of it when we were in Congress.

He told me that Pittman had talked to him about having to have attorney's fees and support for Hunt.

And I said, this is my guy.

I said, you can't go down this road.

I mean, I got to get paid credit.

I said, but what would it cost to keep supporting these defendants?

He said, a million dollars.

I said, well, maybe we can get that.

Jesus Christ.

Think of that.

And then he said, I said, that's blackmail.

He said, you can't go down this road, John.

I mean, trying to get that.

See, that's the whole point.

That's what it could be that the defendant appears to me with the other thing.

The question was there, what does that, that the veteran, the veteran, he's the consular.

Yes, he is.

But these guys, he had, of course, one of his attorney's duties.

And, frankly, if it were a case of getting their attorney's duties for the purpose of, you know, at the earlier point, I would have perfectly approved of them for all they were worth, we can't say.

But here at this late date to ask for attorney's leave and so forth, what the hell is that?

Well, that's a very sensitive issue for my friend Brittman.

Do you know that man?

Very well.

He's a very able lawyer.

I've worked with him.

I've known him for a long time.

Well, I don't think lawyers ever know.

Jesus Christ, they do what they do.

A poor damn lawyer does what he has to do, I guess.

I haven't felt free to associate with him.

Let me say, let me say, I forget that I, but I thought, he probably, he told me about this conversation.

And that's the only time.

But, and the only time that Earl was apparently ever heard.

I think this is very important, because I asked John, and they don't lie to me.

I'm telling you, I think he did.

But, but not, not viciously.

He thought that he was lying, or the curses had given off, God damn it.

I hope that's right, Mr. President.

That's why, of course, my view has to be a little bit different from yours.

Let me say at the moment that anything happened.

No question.

Without any question.

Now, let me say this.

Earlier, everybody around here had to be aware of the fact that everybody in town

of the stories with the effect that the defendants were getting something, you know, meaning they were getting a turnstile or something.

It was a Mrs. Hunt story and so forth, and she died.

And Dean, on one occasion, frankly, did talk to her friend about the need for that.

And Irving said that I, being, frankly, thank God for the advice, because I can't have anything to do with it.

And that's a problem for you to have to work out with political people.

Early in the periods of the Monopolist League, and all of them too, were both advocates, right after the convention, when this thing came up, what I called the let it all hang out thing.

I said, for Christ's sake, get it out.

She couldn't get Richard.

See, the key to this, Henry, was Richard.

I mean, just talking between us.

Mitchell wouldn't do it.

I said, I mean, I never asked him.

I never asked John Mitchell what he was doing.

But the point was that

I wasn't timing the story.

These kids did these jackass things.

I'm terribly sorry, and I plead.

Whatever you want to plead, let's get on with the campaign.

But he lived through it.

And there it started.

There it was.

It was too late, Tom.

There it started the tragedy.

And now we have to do our best to do it.

But on this basis, you've got strong...

At odds with McGruder?

Yes.

Oh, before the rancher?

No, yes.

But McGruder's a pre-grandeur statement.

But eventually that's under oath.

How could you do those under oath?

Uh, I don't think he's under oath at this point, as a matter of fact.

In essence, the question is, if McGruder says all of them got the take,

And, and Strong says, we've done stuff, but I didn't recognize it as a take.

Is that basically the definition?

That's basically it.

That's right.

Also, you haven't made a case on that.

That's right.

Also, you haven't made a case on that.

That's right.

One man against the other.

Which one do you believe?

The three of empty is the other thing.

I see that.

I haven't been at home.

I haven't been aware of that.

According to the, if I didn't think fly...

That makes him out to be the toughest issue.

That makes him out to be the toughest issue so far in all of this.

Basically, he had this, he just wanted to make them available at the request of the blue and all.

And so they're going to be available.

So that's meant, certainly, knowledge of the fact that the funds were used for certain purposes.

And it gets down, it escapes, I suppose, I'm trying to get it through.

Mr. Wilson will have to do this.

For what purpose?

He tells me now that he didn't read it when he burned them.

He has no idea what he burned.

based on the fact that he was told there were political violence, political stuff.

By Dean and Earlywood.

What?

By Dean and Earlywood.

What is the situation with Dean?

Basically, is Dean's position, Henry, that he was just a conduit?

Dean's position is that he was an agent, that he was an information gatherer.

from all sources.

We've gone through the files.

I said, we have them.

I said, well, let's see what the situation is.

Well, the whole case is going to be hard to prove, Mr. President, because it has to be an entirely testimonial case.

There are very little documents that are available to corroborate it.

That's right.

So we have to use the testimony of insiders in this case.

Yeah.

So it's the testimony of people that are involved.

That's right.

That's a tough thing to use.

That's right.

Yes, indeed.

Thank God.

And you have to corroborate it.

I never was in this field, except, as I said, my own exposure to criminal law was in this case.

Well, and it becomes terrible when the case has political connotation.

Sure.

You know, because then the motives of the law multiply.

I hope you think we've made the right move when I made the announcement that we're going to discredit this from now on.

Yes, sir.

We actually need some.

But coming back to your whole business of immunity, that apparently you've got to grant that when I say you, the Attorney General, asked you.

He's out of it.

I have to.

Yes, you will, because I push it.

Yes, sir.

Fair enough.

I'm not sure it's enjoyable, but it's fair enough.

All right.

So you've got to reach out to Paul, haven't you?

Yes, sir.

Well, that's an anticipatory problem.

When would you get to that, though?

You've got to reach out to 15 other...

He's sitting at home waiting for you.

Yes, sir.

What's his lawyer doing?

He's sitting, too.

And frankly, that's part of our bargaining process.

What do you mean?

to let them sit and soak and know that we're in the grand jury, we're getting other evidence?

Well, look, you've got evidence on it.

You know you've got evidence on Dean.

That is, not on the Cree, not on the Cree necessarily, because on the Cree, he told me, and I believe him on this, that he came and said, let's not have anything to do with this shit.

And I said, I think you're right.

Well, so on that, I'm sure Dean has done a good job.

He said it a time or six, but he's never, he's never told us untruth on that.

Do you believe him that he did not know that this thing went forward?

We're not ready to conclude on that.

But that's what he says.

That's what he says.

We said we do not have any... Now, the problems that he has is that one is a subordination of virtue and everything, right?

Yes.

How does he handle that?

Does he say he does that as an agent, that he was told to get these people to contact the story?

No, we haven't.

His trust on agency is general.

I mean, he hasn't reduced it to any specific thing.

All that does, I suppose, is reduce the charge on this person as an agent.

Or does that get a man off?

Well, no, it really doesn't get a man off.

It's no defense at all in law.

It's a mitigation of punishment, if anything.

and may have some jury appeal in a particular...

The other thing is participation in the so-called, in the payloads and so forth.

No, I guess he didn't.

On that, you could say... You could prove that in his participation.

The subordination thing, you've got to prove it with McGregor.

We're not ready to say, ultimately, that we can prove anything.

We haven't really begun to marshal the facts and

How far away are you now?

It's hard to say.

We're just a terribly complicated jigsaw puzzle.

We're putting pieces together.

Do the best you can.

In a very slow process.

All the cooperation you can from here on this business of the community, as I say, you let me know.

I'm not going to protect anybody.

I understand that.

But I don't want, I don't want to have anxiety.

I think you would agree, if it's one man's word against another, only, then it is not good.

We will not do that.

We will have testimony plus preparation before we do anything.

And I don't want to do it at all.

I mean, Dean's too high on the echelon.

You see, let me ask you one final question.

The point that I'm concerned about here is that if you would give me your advice, my view is that I want to see some corroboration.

I'll be ready to move.

And I will.

I'm very excited when I do it.

You probably know the situation.

Let's get a hold of him.

Well, let's get a hold of him.

We can do this tomorrow.

Well, the earlier thing is that the deep sex thing is, when you look at that, I tried to analyze that, assuming that he said, and there again, you've got our words and words.

I'm assuming that he said, and then, and then how did you get out of the country?

Then, you find, and how did you not get out of the country?

And then the doctor, the doctor that you turned over to the head of the FBI,

That isn't a hell of a lot of cases.

You couldn't even... No, I don't think that's the case at all.

I don't think you can do it.

Bill Rogers, as I told you, didn't think you had a case on that.

I don't know.

He said, well, what the hell is that?

He said, you can't do anything on that.

You're a wet market man.

Right.

And then knowledge of possibility of this...

He might have had knowledge.

But God, let me come to the bottom of the case.

I don't know if it takes the view of the Haldeman, the chart that Haldeman has on the take from Strong, and the three vetted, those hit men.

It's okay.

Be quite candid with me.

Haldeman, who, of course, my second story, if there's a problem today, most of that's because all these guys are pretty big guys.

I'd look for them, too.

But I had to run home.

I was so proud of them.

A few bad days.

Anyway, Paulman, does it help you at all, Paulman, to say that it says so?

Usually.

Yes, sir.

Dr. Kissinger would like to know if you would like him to start the reading.

Yes, sir.

Yes, tell him to start the reading, and then I will come in.

I'd like for him to read the message from the Soviet leader in my direction, so I'm tied up, and then I'll come in and have him on the bandage and talk about it.

Jewish, these are the Jewish people who are trying to reassure them in regard to the Soviet immigration and some of the Jews.

I said, well, I'll get MFN and see if you want to go.

I said, it's a sheer shock to me, but I had to do something.

I told a group of men yesterday, I said, all right, I don't care.

If, do you want to risk arms of the nation, it's all true, and we have armed future reduction forces in Europe.

Do you want to risk the Soviet restraining itself in the Mid-East?

Do you want to resist the Soviet restraining itself in Southeast Asia solely because of this?

Do you want to subdue the people of the Soviet Union this fall because of this?

Raise up questions.

I agree.

When I gather the, uh, I've heard news this morning that they are still opposing it.

Chavits?

Do the best we can.

Aren't you satisfied?

What does the Baldwin thing do to him in terms of, first, what does it do for your case?

What does it do to him in terms of making it easier to read in front of you, or harder, or so, so, so?

Be quite candid with me on that point.

We've got to be talking about it.

Well, I don't think that we've really come to any definitive judgments, and we won't, because what we're fashioning is a conspiracy piece.

in which all the pieces will fit together.

But in such a conspiracy case, the fact that, assuming it were true, and we still have a question of the credibility of Magruder, that Holden was given a budget, which he had the power to veto, which included Operation Gemstone, which he knew to be an electronic intercept operation, would be a tremendously important fact.

So when you couple that with

That's from Grutter v. Strong.

And if you add to that the receipt of the product of the illegal intercepts in identifiable form, coupled with the conspiracy and all of the relationships with Mitchell, what have you, and his position of authority, I have no doubt that we'd be able to include him in a conspiracy.

The question is the credibility, which we're trying to resolve.

But even if that were to fail on a question of proof, then you'd come into the secondary aspect of it.

And that is the, never mind that he's not found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

That's right.

Now, let me ask you this.

Does it help you with your Dean problem?

I mean, I was curious because I got the impression when Dean came in, we discussed it on Monday, the view of the fact that he probably should resign.

He said, well, I resigned all of them earlier than you.

I got the impression that that was from you.

Well, no, sir.

I don't think that's from us.

I think what's...

He made this letter.

Well, I...

mislaid in a sense.

But what you're seeing is a terribly desperate man who's now begun to try and rationalize his own conduct.

And he, in effect, was saying...

But let me ask you this.

That's why they place him like this.

Let's say early on.

Early on, you'd have a pretty hard conspiracy mind.

Pardon?

Early on, you'd have a conspiracy mind.

It's much harder to do.

Yes, sir, unless the evidence develops that he was involved in a post-operation obstruction of justice.

Well, very little at this point.

The allegation is that Pittman to O'Brien to Haldeman, in terms of a demand, take care of his little talk.

And Ehrlichman says... Well, we don't have it pinned down.

All we have it in terms of allegations.

Sometime after the trial.

When was the trial?

January.

You know, I heard about the time Hunt was pleading guilty.

That's the implication.

Now, we haven't corroborated that one way or another.

Bidman said we'll talk.

No, Bidman says...

That allegation comes from McCord, who says that he got it from Dorothy Hunt.

Bittman says, we haven't had Bittman in to testify, and Bittman says that's entirely untrue.

I mention it not because I think it's an item of admissible evidence at this point, it's just another one of the disturbing dimensions of this problem.

So you're going to have Bittman say that he told O'Brien that we needed money, or Hunt would... Well, I know Bittman is too good a lawyer to make a statement in a fashion like that.

That's one thing.

Did Bittman talk to Dean?

Not that I know of.

Bittman, I think, talked to Colson.

Colson?

I don't know.

I didn't know about that.

But I don't know.

I heard by the name, the name of Richard Bell.

He talked to somebody with regard to the possibility of getting back his attorney's seat or something like that.

That was after the trial.

I heard of that.

Chris, that's there again where New Room comes in.

He was delivered money to Hogan and Harkson

Who's Hogan & Hartson?

Hogan & Hartson is a law firm in which Phil Bittman is a partner.

And where do they take the money for that?

We send it up by messenger.

In a room?

You've got all that in a room.

Well, I haven't examined his grand jury testimony, but he was in yesterday.

But he generally admits to the obstruction of justice, certainly with respect to the

Magruder's testimony and how far he's come along on the payments of money.

He agrees he's deliberative and he's willing to plead, I take it, to the obstruction charge.

I guess I'll go.

So that could involve all of them because O'Brien's supposed to tell all of them, is that it?

Yes, but I hesitate to even tell you because we haven't laid that down.

Not because I have any intention.

No, only because I don't want to imply that that's a charge.

That's bad enough without... Sure, without getting into things that you can't...

I'm exposed looking at Dean, my friend from yesterday.

Now Dean was aware that Bittman, this I remember, I do remember that Dean was aware that Bittman had talked to somebody with regard, and this is after the trial, with regard to his attorneys fees.

And something heard, well I guess that's what it was, which is,

which apparently was related to Mitchell.

I don't know how that was.

That's all I hear.

Dean hasn't told you about this?

No, sir, but Dean has not been debriefed fully.

I heard that.

Dean may have indeed told you more than he told us, but all he needs to tell us enough to stimulate our interest in him as a witness.

Perhaps he did not get to that point.

You better get it from him directly.

I don't know what the hell he, I don't know, but what he was telling me was whether he heard from somebody else or whether he, you know, you see there's a bust and he might be framing Colson on this, too.

Can't tell me anything about that.

Because I don't think he cared about Colson.

So you come down to the, hold on.

So the conspiracy then, with regard to Ehrlichman, is much stronger.

Oh, that's a great thing.

With regard to Haldeman, quite likely.

Well, let me put it this way.

The Ehrlichman thing, I regard only as, at this stage, as an item of information for you.

I see.

And really not...

I've got to find out who's talking to you.

That's right.

But not as a piece of jar.

That's where I've got to be really sure who's lying there.

But even... And the second, and even with Ehrlichman, we haven't paid judgment on these things.

We wanted to get them to you before you read them in the newspaper, obviously.

Sure.

But we haven't paid judgment on these things.

There, the other thing that the Governor of New England, Governor Ehrlichman, made his allegation that...

He talked to Irving about the needs for honey screws and that, but she didn't.

That I know Irving still.

Irving said, I can't help you.

Period.

That I know.

Because Irving was advocating another course of action.

So I tend to believe Irving on this because he was advocating an action that shouldn't have taken action.

Well, that's going to, as you can see, become a very tortuous plan to get into that committee and find out who had the authority to expend or authorize the expenditure of funds post-election.

Yes.

Or, you know, any alternative, whether or not the funds were taken out before the election.

Most of this occurred after the election, Mr.

Governor.

Well, uh...

Apparently that never was.

Coming back to the Hall of the Patriots.

Let me say this to answer my question.

I guess it makes no difference to you, but it makes no difference to the prosecution.

Uh, is there no difference between the Instagram and Dean?

No, sir.

You've got to go forward with the cases earlier.

That's right.

Our only concern there is you.

That's all.

That's right.

I'm sure that you don't move on before I do.

Well, we want you to have as much information as we have for whatever purpose you see fit to use it.

That's right.

That's all.

You know, you're going to be in this case a long time.

Mitchell, Mitchell, how the hell is Mitchell, is he coming down?

He's coming down.

He's talking, Lord, I know all the lawyers.

He's talking to another lawyer who's a very good friend of mine today about representing him.

He's also, along with Fred Vincent, representing Lou River and Bill Hundley and Fred Vincent.

So John Mitchell, who, frankly, I introduced to Bill Hundley, is coming down to...

to see Bill today.

Bill may not be able to represent him if he's also representing LaRue, because there may be a conflict there.

But he's certainly going to talk to him.

Well, I'm not going to talk to Bill.

I don't do anything.

I'd say nothing coming today.

And LaRue's not going tomorrow, either.

Uh, what do you mean?

Uh, we could play- Don't be a part.

You may be a part.

Oh, no, no, no.

That's all part.

If you're a part of it, I'm certain that it's true.

And we will not until we find out the results of the conflict between him and Sterling.

Do you think I could go east or south?

They would not be bothered in this case.

You want to give it all three states?

I was going to ask you.

Let's go.

Tell me that's what you wanted me to do.

I think you did.

Let me say, I'm not holding it up.

I don't think you've got any impression of that.

On your hand, frankly, there are about two or three names in your name.

And the point that I make is that it's basically the enemy of this miserable case that, of course, is deeply involved.

So just let me say this.

Let me say this.

Just have a little case right.

And remember, you can be rest assured of this.

I don't know this crap.

We have moved.

And I must say that I think that with the best of intentions, I think John Dean, I'm afraid, was an actor.

He was responsible, basically.

And, frankly, he was working the picture.

That's what you're going to find.

That's what he was doing.

And the rest over here have their tangential sub-intentions.

But I can assure you that when it came to the period of the attorney's fees and so forth, that's really what broke the case.

And I got to get Dean Craig, who came in and said, Jesus Christ, here's all this money.

That's an indication it's a problem.

And he said, we've got to do something about it.

And I said, in fairness, at that point, Dean never indicated he had anything about the money.

But apparently, if there was something about it, he said it.

He said, in years, he said, well, God damn it, John, you've got to get this to the bottom.

And he goes to camp.

David couldn't write a report, and I turned it over to Haldeman.

And I must say, Haldeman did get to the bottom.

Reached the wire about the same time you did.

He had to, he called on Saturday noon, you know, and you had to put it in Saturday afternoon.

And it, that was it.

I mean, that Sunday, it's been a long week.

Why don't we take the Easter alone?

But the main thing is, let me say, your record must be, your record must be one impeccable going after this.

The Justice Department has handled this case right, hasn't it?

Yes, sir.

Absolutely.

And even in this period before, you were relying on digging what he told you.

The rest of you questioned them all.

Right.

And you had no obstruction from the White House in your investigation?

No, sir.

Cooperation, however, if it wasn't for WCC?

No.

So now, the U.S. and the American people, they have cooperation with the White House in this area?

Or did they have?

They were, they needed, you know, they, you know, there was the other guy that might have been, maybe, if you question the witnesses and all that sort of thing, they may have think that, if they, if you look back, there may have been some subordination.

It's okay.

Have a good time.

Let me ask you a question.

I would not ask for that job.

I don't take any conclusions from your mentioning it.

I know.

I guess my present day standard is something that was.

religiously, only by presently sounding trash.

That's about right.

And I pray every day that what I do will be right and what people like you do that affects me will be right.

That sounds fatalistic.

If it comes out that you make me the director, that's fine.

If it comes out that you don't make me the director, that's fine.

Let's have Easter off, shall we?

Yes, sir.

Thank you so much.