Conversation 902-009

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But they made a deal with him at that time.

I'm going to finish the recording and the crew is going to get back to my question of the strength of whether or not we want them to be with me.

And I'm going to do it quite again.

I'll raise it again.

and why we had to do it and how we were going through the other plans and so on.

He actually did not have to be in charge of this at all.

He said, what else to do?

They said, we need to know this way along.

I said, I think he was working in other fields regarding this.

I think he must.

I was stressed on that.

I shut my mouth and put it to him.

I said, Dean, it occurred to me that if Alton heard the plan, that that would be, that you, being in Peterson, would be granted the penalty.

He said, that's not true.

And he said, we have no second understanding of this.

And in fact, you know, I made a corroboration.

I said, what is Dean's theory?

He said, well, it's that.

Basically, he carried out the orders of others.

I said, does that have to do with that?

What if I could send that, which is only a litigation penalty?

So you can't be an agent for committing a crime.

So, uh, you can't do that.

So Dean grew up in that situation.

I wonder if he's going to get, he's going to get total detention.

Or whether he's... And I suppose the way I look at it, I don't know, we've got to consider it as...

We've really got to think there's any other facts to come out anyway, whether getting the total immunity is running any back better.

Your view or not?

Your view is we just have to hold it over the rest of our lives anyway.

That'd be my fear.

These fellows don't seem to think Dean can get immunity at this point, but they're going to go down and talk to Glanzer and see what's going on.

Second point, now with regard to the cases,

And so he came up and he said, they just didn't have help with a bunch of kids.

It was a deep sex thing.

And he said, I didn't have that.

And I said, well, it's pretty hard.

And I said, well, it was for me.

Like, they hated the contents of the grave.

The grave was pretty bad.

And I thought, they did.

And he said that.

And I said, it was a little bit of a grave.

He says, early in the evening.

But I said, neither of those things occurred.

And I said, I didn't raise the point that it all occurred before them.

That they're fraction of the point, which is otherwise.

The other thing is, I said, what else?

How else do you get rid of the conspiracy thing?

Well, he says that perhaps the only way you could possibly get a deed going better with regard to the need for funds for the defendant.

Now, he did what he would want to point to, didn't he?

Right.

Including, of course, this last time, thinking about this last bit.

I guess.

I spit in his eye.

Early when I told him it was alright, he called come back.

These fellows say that they're not completely finished.

We're right in the middle of this right now.

But their tentative view is that we have to look at it as you're doing from two standpoints.

The illegal and the apparently

didn't want to work for SANS anymore.

And we used a pretext with Maury that Kambach was going to be under Bob and my aegis from now on to do special projects, and so he couldn't be a fundraiser anymore.

That was effective the 6th of April.

And so Mitchell and SANS had been told that the only way they could use him is if we okayed

on this time by the committee.

So they came to you and asked you to- Dean said, would you- Nothing illegal in that case, but what about the conspiracy thing there?

That's what I was thinking.

Would they leave that in as part of the conspiracy?

Well, that's arguable.

These fellows seem to think that there's a legitimate defense to that that doesn't

He said, basically, it gets down to a conflict of judgment, which they cannot resolve.

It would be strong and regrettable.

And he said, I've been thinking about it.

They like it, I think.

I don't like it, but maybe we have to do that.

I don't know.

I didn't get into that.

Strong, in effect, says that Haldeman did not receive the specifics of the budget.

And I don't know what Haldeman says on that or not.

that all of them did not receive Watergate stuff that was recognized on the side sheet.

I agree with what he says, that all of them received the budget.

I don't know if you heard Sean Sparks say he received specifics.

Yeah, he does.

He does.

I agree with what he said.

Yeah, he said that to me.

And the other budget.

Yes.

But it did indicate that the budget was involved.

strong, devoutly, sincerely, and with every fiber of his being, says he never got it.

And he would remember.

If he ever got a budget that said anything like that, he'd know it.

But McGruder says they received the budget here.

They sent it over.

Right.

And McGruder's also saying the information

all of those that apparently are ordering or participating in the order, you know, rehired and living.

I don't know what that is.

He didn't mention this.

He didn't think it was very important.

They're far from having this case nailed down.

Yeah.

He said anything about timing?

Well, nothing this weekend.

He said they haven't made their deal with the jury.

So he's not going in this week?

No, sir.

How did he?

Well, he said, I said, look, if I take off for Easter, it's going to be up.

So apparently.

Will they recess the jury for Easter?

Well, anyway, he won't go before Monday.

Is that what you're reading as?

I find that.

All right.

Yeah.

And that all of them ordered the 350 to be paid, knowing that the 350 paid the defendants.

Now, all of them agree with that, don't they?

No.

We've gone into that in elaborate detail with the lawyers this morning.

What did they say?

John Wilson says there's nothing illegal about what you did, Mr. Halligan.

The President has to decide whether the appearance of it makes a problem.

He says not, because of Bob's state of mind at the time.

He was intending only to get rid of money that he had that didn't belong to him.

And what the recipient did with it, he didn't have any control intent, design, or contemplation.

what else what do you he's told wilson everything he knows and what he knew then not of a certainty not of a certainty he did not and that's something wilson bored in on very hard at this point he said now mr haldeman uh in effect would you have been surprised to learn

And Bob said, well, I didn't have that strong a conviction about what they were going to use it for.

I knew they needed money over there.

But he said, no, it wouldn't have surprised you.

So then Wilson poured in on him two or three different ways.

This old boy is good.

He's quite something.

Well, we got all done.

He said, well, he said, I know the question that says the price is mine.

And he said, I want to reserve that we get all done today.

But he said, you must bear in mind the difference between a criminal act and yours.

And the problem that's presented to the president by the mayor of Paris.

Which basically is that we, I mean, I, this is what I trust this fellow, Pierce, you know, I think he'll try and do his best.

He's just a horrible man.

Sure.

He loves Metro.

Sure.

He loves the White House.

Yeah.

But, you know, that's the way it is.

I understand.

I'm sorry.

I think he liked being here.

Yes, I know he did.

Now, the only thing that I have that comes to the back of my mind

Yeah, I'll blow the whistle on the national security operation.

That was the frame.

Yes, sir.

And you'll remember our response to that was, you cannot be paying black men in that kind of a situation.

And that's all that is, is pure black men.

And we said, no dice.

And I could be just as flat out on that.

That's the honest to God truth.

Now, let me put one other question to you.

I know it's very painful for you to think of this.

Maybe it's for me, too, but anyway.

I think the separation problem has to be considered.

We can look at it very closely.

It's a lot.

We have an administrator who's also looking at this thing in terms of your, how you were involved in terms of whether it's going to be, I don't know how you were involved, but Dean Mays said, I don't know what the son of a bitch is going to say.

I don't know what to do with Dean.

He's obviously a very, as you said, he's an emotional commentator.

Well, as I said this morning, I think you can very truthfully and logically and properly say I was trying to get every, trying to, I was really trying to probe his thought process.

I went on every road we possibly could.

See where we were.

And it paid off.

But you see, you're the one who then came back and said, I've got to have that all written down, send that man to Camp David if necessary, and have him take as much time as necessary, and let's get it all done.

That's when he was uncovered.

I suppose that really is the truth.

Well, not that he was uncovered.

the fact that he said, I got this thing, such a cancer and so forth, and I can't write it.

There's no way we can make a statement.

And I said to you, John, you better get into it.

Yes, but I, to be, this may be some measure of hindsight, but I really don't think it is, because my very conscious contemporary reaction when Dean came back and didn't have anything for us was, whoops, there's something more here.

Because

Dean could have constructed some kind of an artful evasion if he hadn't been so pervasively involved for the campaign committee or the White House or whoever he wanted to protect.

But the thing that occurred to me when Bob told me what Dean said, he couldn't write it.

I just had a mental image of the guy sitting there with big piles of paper saying, I've just written a confession.

And I would be nuts to deliver this to anybody.

Oh, that's what we have to say.

Oh, I think, I think that's .

I don't know if you can't, we may be able to exert privilege on Dean before the branch, but we can't before the press.

We can in a trial, and you certainly can in the press.

I'd send a fellow around to talk to Dean if this is a problem, to just say, look here, you are going to be liable, separately liable, for breach of confidentiality.

Is that a case?

Well, I think you ought to get Peterson to advise you on this.

But there certainly is a statutory protection.

and uh i think he couldn't vote well no not as such but on a very national security basis either i'm just not that familiar with sanctions i don't know what all you have in a way statutory protection but you remember that our cia case where the guy uh was enjoying by the court uh we fell back on the body along the other point he said he's obviously he knows all the things

greatly concerned about the matter of the 120 because that gets involved sure so we may not uh you just he may talk about this but it's not likely to i would say what the hell is it for bickman to say that he asked for that i just asked you doesn't that ball the lawyer brian puts it in the soup puts it in the soup sure that he came and said i want a hundred and twenty percent for or otherwise

You're right.

Well, this is good information.

It should be helpful.

It fits right in with our conversation in there.

I will talk—I'll tell you what I think I will do, if you don't mind.

I will take John Wilson aside and talk to him about the separation of us.

He's very wise and very— I don't know how—

And they've got to get to his judgment.

When Bob said this morning, he said, I'll fight him over here, because we have to be careful of ourselves.

We generally are hurting ourselves in this case.

I guess we just haven't been hard enough that way.

Maybe.

Well, in a sense, though, let's face it.

John Ketchum's works in the back here is not really a good stuff.

It's just we weren't protecting the White House.

Right.

That's correct.

We weren't protecting that.

We were protecting John Mitchell.

Yes.

All the way through.

In the first instance, we were protecting every election, in a sense.

We didn't know what from.

Sure.

Afterward, though, this covering business was pure mission.

Sure.

Now, Bob says that, you know, here we look back, and he goes,

Well, there's two ways of looking at that.

The point is, there is that strong argument that people are making that if somebody, if it's the president who, you know, I suppose if I move on, let's look at it this way.

Let's suppose I don't move on.

The main argument would be that he told me all these things about Holden, but I didn't move on.

Correct?

Sure.

And Dean's being made a scapegoat.

He's being made a scapegoat.

And then, so all this stuff, all of it comes out.

All of it would probably have to go with being quite candid.

Yeah, eventually they drive him out.

But this much, in his case.

It could be played a lot of different ways.

You've given me some stuff here as a worry for him that we didn't have before.

That may add to all this business about the defense.

Um, I think what I'll, what I'll do, Bob and I, Bob and I talked about this at the breakfast.

It was his idea.

When I was thinking, Bob goes in the way of simply, I'm going to fight this battle.

I've used my, my situation.

It's been made untenable.

And I'm going to fight this battle and so forth and so on.

You know what he said?

He said, I'm going to get six crises.

And I'm going to read the chapter about the fund.

And he said, that's going to be my guide.

separability is there, but then you've got to think back as to what the hell he is up to with regard to you.

Yeah, and that's what we were doing when you called.

We were going into everything and anything that I could remember that had anything to do with this.

Let me come down to the bottom line.

As I look at it at the present time, looking at this evidence, the U.S. Attorney has a hell of a time, including you,

conspiracy that, and on the title, that this did, that the lawyer had found out.

Well, see, they're going over there when they get finished.

Fine, fine.

Looking at this evidence, I think there is a fairly strong possibility that all of it would be included in it.

Yeah.

Well, they say that they don't.

They say that they don't.

Yeah.

Looking at this evidence, however, I think there is a very

Well, now they say, though, that a prosecutor like this Glanzer, Gleaser, or whatever his name is, will sometimes indict somebody that he doesn't expect to get a conviction on, just to get a big name into the case.

Well, that's another thing that they're going to probe.

But they said to look out for that.

Don't take much comfort from the fact that... Well, they say so far not, from what they've heard.

They think not, that it is not actionable in the ultimate sense.

But they're being very guarded, obviously, because we're just now giving them the facts.

And they haven't tested what we're telling them.

The way they had to do it is they started to build a whip.

Bob was involved in all this.

He retired.

He received the budget.

He received the information.

And he ordered the 350 Gs.

That should be the case with Bob.

It would be a whole elaborate, as you say, a whip.

uh no one fact of which would do it but i didn't even dare well i think we've got the best of the town in there well that's all i have yeah thank you it's very helpful it was all useful let me say i feel

when you finished with your lawyers and so forth, and you thought would like to come over and talk a little bit.

No, you've got something like this in mind.

This is very helpful.

Thank you.

The other thing, too, is that I'm trying desperately to keep the...

The problem is, of course, John, you know, everybody wants to hand it in.

They've got to come in and say, oh, that's fine.

Talk to me about it.

I mean, it's

They all break up things that I have fought over a, about ten times.

I don't need to talk to the environment.

I don't need to talk to Henry.

I don't need to talk to Sapphire.

Is it clear?

It's worth it.

Don't you agree?

Ron's great.

Ron's just been absolutely great at this.

Ron's, uh, really is.

Talk about something a little different.

Okay, gentlemen.