Conversation 906-008

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Well, how are you?

I'm great, and then?

I should see you.

Sorry to call you such a jerk.

No, it's all right.

I'll house your job.

All right.

Hey, you know, I don't suppose you ever do that.

You're all right.

But you do like it, don't you?

Yes.

Yes, I do, Joey.

It's a very difficult job to get from the best number to the best number.

It seems to me that you follow the, you've been a skilled, skilled master of it.

I notice how you go down that line, that tight wire, that hot old thing.

It happens, don't you?

Yes, you do.

It's the right thing to do.

I think the traffic, the public interest sometimes gets obscured.

Right.

Let me ask you something I'd like for you to undertake.

It's a very tough thing to do.

But, you know, we've had a great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great.

I don't know that well.

What is it?

I don't know.

He took my place at the Justice Department when I left.

Yeah.

How did he do there?

Well, I think he did all right.

He was, uh, uh, the people there liked him.

He was... Oh, he was wonderful.

And he didn't get into the kick-out that much, but, yeah.

Well, what is needed now

quite aware the problem is getting it worked out

I think you're right.

I want you to understand that that's the purpose of my calling you here.

I have heard one time that you did not, you wanted to stay in your present position.

Yes.

Yes, I enjoy it when I'm doing that.

Right, right.

What I'd like for you to do on a temporary basis is to be, because we have to have somebody there, and as of like today or tomorrow, is to be the acting director of the Bureau.

Now, let me tell you who's the person.

And for you, because you're being called coach.

First, you, I thought you would know who's qualified and

You're absolutely incorruptible.

If you want to be Director of the Bureau, you need to be Director of the Bureau.

I was not an issue of the Director of the Bureau, but I need an acting Director of the Bureau until I find out.

We have been making a search now, a search, but I do not have a man yet.

basically, go, I've just got to check this next guy out so damn bad.

You can be the director of the Bureau if you want, if you want full time.

And I'd love to have you be my first choice.

Klein, we spoke, however, when I raised your name with him at the time, and the expression that you didn't particularly want to move in that direction, you want your person to do it,

my own view would be if i could just make a picture even during the permanent although i'm not asking you to look on the campus i'm just asking you that all the time frankly mr president i'm saying that the country requires at the moment that this is the most important if you want to look permanently i think you could render an enormous service because you know you've got to clean out the whole

That means the second level, they didn't.

Hoover left it.

Hoover, you know, had Colson, Tolson.

He had nobody else.

Everybody else down there is all sharpshooting each other.

This fellow, Deloach, is left.

The gray-haired fellow, Lambert, what's his name, or Froffel, is cutting up the others.

Sullivan is left.

And the bureaucracy is in a terrible damn condition.

it needs new men it needs new men to come up apparently there are good men that could come up but it needs the kind of organizational skill that you could bring to it but it needs a fresh room to sleep clean or i would prefer if you would to let me nominate you as

If you do the first, let me say, after you finish that job, I'll relieve you of it.

I'll send you back to your present job, or would you consider it to be the right thing to do?

Yes.

You've got a good deputy, I presume, haven't you?

Yes, he's leaving.

If he plans to leave, we'll urge him to stay then.

We'll urge him to stay.

The other possibility, the other thing is if you want to take the director,

Then you've got to look at your options in terms of, I don't know what you have in the political line, or you've got to look in terms of your options with regard to the court system.

But whatever it is, I want you to know that I consider this will be a crisis of enormous importance.

Now, the other thing I wish you know, too,

I'm going to change the attorney general.

I have to do that.

And he knows that with the .

And again, I don't blame them.

You have these people that you love and admire and the rest of them.

What happened there is, it's the most, the goddamnedest comedy of errors you ever saw.

Mitchell, with that terrible, stupefied appearance, is a psychotic.

He wasn't watching the show.

He's nuts.

He let them get out and make people screw with him.

And Mitchell, you know, just takes a minute.

Just be sure to listen in here.

I'm convinced of that.

Understand?

I'm not prepared to say that with everything coming from the branch or the actual act in three or four weeks.

Now, in doing this, you are not trying at all to say you would never have a damn thing to do with Watergate or any of that crap, right?

That's right.

You haven't had the experience of the Department of Justice and you haven't had the experience of EMA.

But I'd like for you to give me an answer now.

Would you take...

Let me say, if you asked me to do it as president on behalf of the country, my answer would be, of course.

I have no desire to be the director of the Army.

Well, you'd prefer not to.

Yes.

Well, if you'd prefer not to, we shouldn't do it then.

Why would you prefer not to?

Well, I haven't.

In the first place, I think one of the criticisms that were leveled against Gray might be

be applicable to me, and that is that I don't have the law enforcement background.

I don't know.

Uh, I have... Backyard is the more virtuous acting director.

No, I don't think it would either.

I think as a permanent director, I would be subject to being, you know, a politician.

Uh, somebody who's, uh, been a party man and... And ran for office.

Yes, and all of the evil things that have happened.

You'd have to go and, uh, have hearts pushing around.

He's an awful, awful person.

and all the rest of it.

Well, then, all right, I got nothing to do with you.

I don't press the person on a job that important.

You've got to want to do it.

But let me ask you this, then.

Will you then, as president, if I ask you to do acting director, do it until I get a director, which it might be, I think I may have one in a month with a check.

It may take two months.

I might have it a little sooner or a little later.

But that's why I'm not talking to you longer than parents, let me say that two months, because the hero has got to have a computer who can come in and do it.

The purpose of your going there is to keep the place together and give me, after your study, what you would make if I could direct it.

I've studied the whole band of rockers.

and tell me who the men are going to stay, who are the people that should be moved out, and how it should be reorganized, so that I can then give that to the director of the village.

That's what I'd like to do.

I can do that.

Let me, who, as far as my reporting line is concerned, if there should be a new generalist at the present time, I want you to report me.

Well, you'll report me.

You're reporting me.

The director of the village.

Let me say at this point, I want you to report to me on how it should be reorganized.

In other words, if you're applying, that's directly to me.

And the president, of course, you've got to deal with the client base and so forth.

He is the attorney general.

But in terms of this reorganization and the rest, it's directly to the president.

Directly to the president.

I understand that.

In terms of any...

In terms of the kind of thing it seemed to me that they got Gray in trouble in responding to requests from the media and the White House, even, and that sort of thing.

I'm convinced that any file that I have involved any problem in this country should be immediately available to the President.

i know i haven't answered it let me say while you're there you're not having a problem and uh as a matter of fact gray gray was right in turning over to dean files that had to do with dean's investigation

That's fine.

How do you anticipate that this would be handled?

How will this be announced?

Oh, I do not see any.

What's the question?

Well, then we'll hear it.

Is it going to be done by a press conference?

No.

Just by a statement from?

Oh, I haven't announced it.

I haven't.

I really thought that won't be true.

Maybe we should talk about that.

I don't know.

It'd be just dilly.

You should doubt it.

Well, you're prepared to take that.

You're prepared to say that you're going to request the president to be actually directing your investigation, that you're honoring your student's responsibility.

You will take that.

responsibility of the president, completes his search for a department director, you know, a department position, and that, well, what is your, what about Watergate and so forth?

The president has told you that there is to be total cooperation with everybody concerned and all that stuff.

If they ever get to the Raw Finals, and I can remember, and we've got Kate Gray in there, turning the Raw Finals over to the committee, saying, we'll work out the proper procedure, of course, with the committee, with the Congress, such as it was done during the day, and during the crew stage, or something like that.

I sort of blew off on that point.

What would you have in mind as to what could be said?

Well, it seems to me, now that we've made it clear, that I'm going to be there until... What that is, obviously, is because of the recent revelations of the travel upgrade.

It is the need to put somebody in there to keep the thing going until a successor can be found.

It seems to me that's the way they were also, and I wanted to say, too, that you were there to make the right impression, and actually to go ahead and make recommendations with regard to reorganization.

Would you say that was right, Matt?

But I want you to do that, you understand?

Yes.

I want you to give me a personnel, I want to know about Felton and all these other people, which ones are good, which are bad, which ones are worn out, which are cut in the other, what the bureaucracy is, what the attitudes are, and so forth and so on.

Er, I raised other questions, I'll stay on it.

Yeah.

It seems to me that at some point I'll have to talk to the press.

I don't know exactly how.

Whether I ought to do that just piecemeal or at a full-blown press conference of some kind.

I mean, as I get it,

Sir, what you would be doing is saying that, uh, that Pat Gray is relieved of his responsibility.

He resigned.

He has resigned.

That's right.

That's him.

That's already happened.

Has that been announced?

It's been announced this afternoon.

So that's gone.

I missed it.

That's why I don't want to interrupt.

I don't want to interrupt.

What do you call it?

That's the right word.

I don't want to interrupt.

Pat Gray hasn't done it.

Would I have to, I think I'd have to resign my position at ETH in order to be eligible for that job.

I don't know.

I don't know whether or not.

I don't think so.

I don't know.

I think, uh,

That would have mattered, but I just think I ought to be all clear.

You've got to be clear as to what you do.

Yeah.

Let me ask you to do this.

Despite the fact that his names are dragons and names here, John Irving is a totally, I'm sure you understand, totally honest lawyer in that case.

Oh, yes, sure.

Would you mind talking to him about what you might have to do with your science work and come back with a plan to meet with him?

Sure, I'd be glad to do that.

Fine.

Because I don't know about you, but maybe Ray will see whether you have to resign or he doesn't, whether you should do a press thing.

I want to get this out fast, though.

I don't want to leave any hiatus here.

I've seen so many of these people come out of their homes with a TV guy.

There's a couple of them under his name.

I don't think you can say I'm taking this position.

I'm honored to serve.

I will serve.

I'm very proud of the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

I go over the Cuban standards.

I don't have any questions about being able to handle it.

Yeah, you just want to know what the answers are.

Well, I think first and foremost, the director of the Bureau.

How long will that be?

A president who wants to take the time that's necessary to get an individual who is superbly qualified, the best qualified person in the country, who has had long enforcement experience, had some long enforcement experience, not just a best qualified person in the country, and one who will command respect from both parties.

I want somebody that can get it.

and that it's not partisan, that both parties will, so that he will have, therefore, trouble to support the country.

And he's asked me to take this position during this interim period while they're... Well, he continues to search for success.

You are going to be in the, they have their, we're going to report you, report, of course, that he was a weapon, and so forth.

What about FBI files and so forth?

They will be rigidly guarded under their security, you know, and so forth and so on.

What about investigations that will be undertaken with, as far as Watergate or anything else there's going to be?

The president told you, the president told you that to investigate anything in the court of law, anything that has, to leave no, you can say that he told you to leave no stone unturned.

to get at the bottom of the Watergate thing.

That's a good line for you.

But actually, that's what I'm telling you right now.

I don't care who it is.

Leave no stone unturned, though, over there in that bureaucracy.

They didn't do, they claimed they did a good job, but it may be that they did, I don't know, partly, I'm afraid it's because specials involved.

I'm telling you now, leave no stone unturned.

You and Watergate, you and the Federal Bureau of Investigation, in that order,

How do you want me to talk to John about how we handle this with the press?

And I know this is hard to hit you like this on this, but let me say you did serve your right to be a great service to the country.

And not that I matter personally, but I have to thank you for the opportunity for me to do this right now.

It's terrible.

And you will not regret it.

You will not regret it.

Well, I, Mr. President, I do think that this is a very bad situation.

Oh, it's terrible.

Terrible.

I'm planning, as I said, to vote.

I'll be making a statement at a certain, perhaps, first of the week or so.

But, you know, I mean, this takes, I've got to get the evidence.

Yeah, sure, I understand that.

And also, I have, the problem is that Dan Rancher is a problem.

It takes about three weeks.

There are only nights of people.

I don't even know who he has over there, the second in command.

Uh, uh, clients, please.

Because this is a presidential department.

You can't have a guy who was Mitchell's protege be Attorney General.

I see my mic.

Yes, I know.

That's one other thing that ought to be considered about me.

Then I would say the same thing about you.

You're not the same story.

I'm not, yeah.

Bill, is there a reason to do it?

i don't believe so and i haven't had it checked by anybody but i was given to understand that you could take a leave from your present post without giving it up and losing your confirmation and all that

I would feel that you're going to take leave for a shorter period of time than for a, you said, for a limited period of the act.

I told him this, Denny, that for me, personally, he must have given me recommendations as to the reorganization of the Bureau, as to personnel, not to say that publicly.

Now the question we have, gentlemen, is the question of how we handle, I'm trying to get Clayton to the phone now, as to how we handle his announcement.

I think it should be done today.

Don't you agree?

It's possible, you bet.

Or it could be done from, I mean.

Or it should be, I think, Ron.

If he's got the facilities, it ought to build right from here.

Ron, yes, you know, just goes out.

What do they, the, it's not a presence, it's a vessel, and now they want to get him in.

What do I do about that?

Well, I think you'll have to see him sometime when you're pulled together and composed and ready to go.

Maybe you ought to talk to Ziegler about that.

He may want to have you do it from here.

And that would be the easiest if you could do it from here.

What's the president's attitude on this?

I'm totally, I'm conducting my own investigation.

What about other people?

My understanding is that it's no stone unturned, no matter where, there's no comment, and I won't comment.

I obviously can't comment, as long as there's a grand jury proceeding on any individuals involved.

My investigation, and anything I ask to do, knows that the director of the president knows no stone unturned, can't be at the bottom of this, or anything else.

No, any other people.

That's all right to me, John.

Absolutely.

So what else can you say about other questions, John?

Well, they may ask if you've had any connection with any of these things.

In the time that you were the civil assistant or anything of that sort, and you're totally detached.

Now, you did work for Mitchell.

Well, that's the one thing I was just bringing up a moment ago.

I don't know whether that does affect my ability to be objective, but I don't know.

That's right.

Yeah, that's true.

Well, see, Kleindienst, what did he call it, receded or remitted or something because of his close relationship?

Well, you didn't have that kind of a close relationship.

Well, not really what Kleindienst was, but I was an assistant attorney general.

Under Mitchell, yeah.

Under Mitchell.

from 1969 to the 70s.

I took this job in 1970, December of 70.

Almost a decade.

Yeah, but you were not there at the time of the campaign.

Oh, no.

No, no.

I've been at IFA since December of 70.

Yeah, that's my point.

Well, you'll have to be prepared to cope with that, but I think you can do it.

That's the point that you have not...

You've got an excellent reputation as being independent and calling shots, as you see them.

Yeah, I just, I assume that given this thought, that'll undoubtedly be said.

Here I am being put in there, and I'm a friend of Mitchell's.

Well, it's hard to find some money.

I think the emphasis is on the interim.

That's right.

You're here.

I'm here to take control until you can find success.

Hello?

Yeah, hello?

Yeah.

No, I'll tell you, I don't want him.

I can't have him.

I just talked to Bill Rutleschatz, and Bill is a Mr. Clean, and I want to know in there that it's not part of the old guard, and it's not part of the in-body in there.

He'll do it as acting director until we get it forward.

See, I'm making a search of you now.

And he says he'll take it for that long.

Don't you think that's a good thing?

Now, his only problem is, he says, well, what am I going to say?

He says, I'm going to mention him.

But I said, tell everybody to go to Mitchell.

I mean, he doesn't work there since 1970.

And he was there.

He was never buried in Canberra.

But don't you think Bill would be a good one?

I do.

And I'm going to name him acting director of the Bureau.

And I'm going to have it announced from over here.

Is that all right?

Yeah.

Go under the rules and regulations of the law.

It's an appointment that the Attorney General has to make.

Is that right?

Yeah.

Yeah, I'm making the announcement that I have directed the Attorney General to make you, him, the acting director until a successor is announced, is directed.

All right.

That's what we'll do.

Fine.

Got it?

He's delighted.

Maybe we'd better be a little more explicit with Bill than that.

We obtained information during the time of the very serious FBI leaks to the Post and to Time magazine that felt was the source of the leaks.

This was at the time that Gray was trying to settle in there, and there was a lot of ups and downs with the old guard and so on.

And it came to us in an almost unimpeachable form.

He's the number two man.

That's from, it came to us from a, from a Time magazine lawyer.

It was an admission against interest on the part of Time magazine.

I understand.

He raised it and gravely believed it.

Nobody in the district saw it.

And I don't know, I can't, maybe he's lying.

But it was right out of the Bureau, we know.

So we want you to watch Felden like a hawk.

I just can't, under some circumstances, I can't allow, well, I would put Felden there as the thing.

So I think that's what we want to do here.

All right, I understand that.

Yeah.

Is it a place, an appointment of the Attorney General?

As Director.

the president has always been...

I don't know what I meant.

I had to call Hoover up when I first became president.

Tell him he had a job.

How do you...shall I get Sigler here?

I think that would be a good step.

Let's talk about how we can get this done.

I think it ought to be done right out here.

Are you, John, are you sure that this, will you say you haven't looked into this question whether I could leave out this?

No, I have not.

Just say that, just say that I'm examining that.

Just say that that problem is being examined at the present time.

If you can take a leave of absence, you will do so.

If not, you will resign.

So you don't have another to do this.

And let me tell you, I'll take care of it.

No, I don't know.

I don't really know.

You'll say you're looking into that.

Yes, that matter now is being checked from a legal standpoint that you'll do whatever the law requires.

If you can take a leave of absence from your position, you will do so.

If not, you will, of course, resign your position so you can take this position.

That's what I would say.

That's a good point.

And I would say, what do you think about the...

Well, anything like that to just say the president is giving you carte blanche in order to get to the bottom of anything.

I think the answer is that I am not here not to make accusations, but to find out what the facts are.

That's right.

And also, you're not here to do that.

In your view, it's that the President considers the integrity of the Bureau to be one of his highest responsibilities, and that you are there for the purpose of doing everything you can in this interim period to restore that integrity.

Shall we say restore?

Maintain.

Ron, we, Bill Reynolds House, I guess, is going to be

Well, the technicality here is that the Attorney General makes the appointment.

So that the President has discussed this with the Attorney General.

as directed that the, as directed that the Attorney General appoint Mr. Rundle's House as acting director here pending the appointment of a permanent successor.

How's that?

That's done.

I wonder,

Is it all right with you if this is made clear that I sit there until the successor is found and it's not my desire or yours at this point to appoint me as the permanent director?

Or do you mean you'd rather not say that?

No, I'm saying I think that's what we should do.

That is to be said, no, that you are not.

You are not there as the prime director.

You're there to undertake this position now at this time.

The president is making a very deliberate search.

He makes this appointment.

It's enormously, very important.

And that until the

If it's the right man, he's still checking the number of names.

You say there are a number of names.

This is, in effect, since it hit him because of the great repression.

That's right.

Right.

That's right.

The number of names, we do not have that yet.

And as soon as that name is available, as soon as the president completes that search, that will be an initial will to leave this position.

It's returning, hopefully, returning to the element.

And that position is open to us.

You know what?

Well, then, we should make the point in response to questions, would Bill Ruckles be considered for?

No.

No, I requested the president that I not be considered for the permanent position.

Put it that way.

I requested the president.

I offered it to him, Ron.

He said, I prefer not to be.

He said, I'll do it if you direct me to his president.

Requested to his president.

And I said, nobody should take this job unless he wants to, son of a bitch.

That's my life.

Spell the bitch right.

All right, Ron.

Ruckus House is going in there, he's going in there absolutely with a directive from the President to use the entire resources of the Bureau in cooperation with the investigating, in cooperation with the prosecution, in investigating, what do you call it,

with the U.S. attorneys in cooperation with the prosecuting authorities to get the bottom of the whole Watergate matter out of the way.

And he is going to leave no stone unturned, no matter what it is.

I think if you would say that, the president told you, no stone unturned, no matter what it is.

If we get into a statement like that, Mr. President, then it will lead to speculation and questions.

What does this mean now?

It's a new investigation and another investigation.

Go ahead.

Well, my point is,

In fact, we make the point that he is there until you make a selection of the permanent one, that he will serve in that capacity until a man is selected.

And then say he, of course, will continue to work with the FBI and will cooperate, etc.

I would say that his point is don't indicate you're going to make a new investment.

Sure, we do.

Yes, but the point is if the question comes up of what is your attitude, what does the president try to do?

He said continue the investigation and believe no stone unturned to get at the bottom of this no matter who's here.

You've got to get in place and see what's been going on before you say what it is.

You're going there for the purpose of conducting an investigation.

It's a very thorough investigation that has been undertaken, and it may be as much as can be done.

So you're not going to reflect on the investigation today.

If you say that the president orders, one of the president's directives to you in regard to this, you are to continue the investigation that has already, you understand, been going on for months, and that you would leave no stone unturned to get at the bottom of this matter.

No matter who it is.

I think that's a pretty good...

Does that sound right to you, Ron?

Or does it?

Well, in response to a question, I mean... Only in response to a question.

Do you anticipate that I would make a statement or just respond to questions?

No, I wouldn't make a statement.

What would you have him do then?

Well, I don't think it's necessary for you to make a statement as such.

You would, I think you should go out and say...

Ron should, by the way, say what he wants to say.

Well, I would go on.

I say the President has conferred this afternoon with the Attorney General.

Hasn't that just completed a meeting with Bill Ruckelshaus?

He has requested Mr. Ruckelshaus to take the position as acting director of the FBI.

Mr. Ruckelshaus... And the Attorney General, pursuant to the President's direction, has today, will today, has this afternoon named him

as acting director of the NPO.

And that the president will leave, that's that.

That is, he will take, he will take leave from this position indefinitely.

And will continue in this position until a successor, permanent successor's name comes on Sunday.

And then leave it right there.

And leave it right there.

And then you can say, you can say I,

I don't know whether it should.

Did he say something?

Well, then they'll be around you.

No, but I'd rather you do it here.

And then you say, no, I said everything I can.

I'm going to get you into their house.

Say, I'm not going to have any more to say.

Well, I think that's right.

I can't because if I don't do it here, then I'll be out of my house.

He'll be there anyway.

But I have to say it.

Oh, I see.

Or you can say it here.

Or you can do it this way.

Yeah.

You can either do it here or...

I could do it in an e-book.

We're all in, so we're there.

It would be simple to say, if you want to tell me to go right now until then, we could all the environmental reporters be showing.

I suppose here's the best place to be, in the vertical area.

And you can say it.

So you could release a very short statement, just a handout from your press office, which confirms the fact that you're not going to make any statement, which indicates that you welcome the opportunity to take this temporary assignment on behalf of the President's Service Acting Director.

You will do your best in that capacity to run the FBI during this interim period.

You have to say nothing more, sir.

I mean, well, you know, maybe what we've all been seeing is people staying outside their house.

Yeah, Jill had them on her doorstep, but before you get home.

She's not home, so I don't know.

Your point is that you have less... Well, then we'll walk out here.

I can't get it over with.

And if not, you can cut it off out here.

It's very easy to be pleased.

It wouldn't be proper to comment about that and so forth and so on.

I'm not going to comment on that.

What do you think about what Gray did?

I'm not going to comment upon that, gentlemen.

That's not proper for me to comment upon.

That's one thing, for example.

It's not proper for me to comment upon that.

His resignation speaks for itself.

Did the president discuss the resignation with you?

No.

It seems to me my response has to do with John's whole possession of facts.

It's just not John for me to comment on.

All I know is what I read.

Well, as a matter of fact, I think I'd move on this fairly fast to get it out there.

All right, good.

Congratulations.

Where will you be?

Meet out in there and I'll call you back when I need you.