Conversation 906-012

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we are really at the point you're right about the about uh

I gave you that piece of paper the other day, Matthew, when he said, I cannot give you anything updated because it involves the grand jury testimony.

Now, that is legitimate, Mark.

That is legitimate.

I mean, I'm not supposed to be getting that goddamn testimony because I know goddamn well I'm going to get it.

Well, you know how I'm going to give it to you.

Now, another thing.

If you go ahead, I'm all set.

Yes, sir.

Yeah, I think so.

After this, when you're free, there's a development session to discuss with you.

You might.

Pardon me?

What did you say?

No, there are two things I should fill you in on, I think, a little later.

Yeah.

Why don't you do it?

Is it a good idea?

I've got to do it now.

Well, it's not urgent.

Oh, it's not urgent?

No.

Well, are you sure?

Because I've decided to make some decisions here.

No, sir.

Well, then, have you got any more from Dean?

No, I placed a call to him, and I'm waiting for a call back.

All right.

The other thing he told me, and I said, well, when is he going to make it?

He said, well, I've got to tell you, Mr. President, we haven't made any kind of place for him, and I've got to tell you that we cannot, I cannot be able to ask any longer of you to wait on him.

Now you see what he's doing here.

That means that they're not coming back.

Well, the problem you've got here is how bad it may be.

And I mean, I'm not referring to you and John.

I understand that.

Yeah.

And how bad it may be at the present.

You've got to take a hard look at that.

John's way out was an easy one.

Direct one.

Fire Dean.

John also puts you in a position of strength.

That's what he's after.

Anything else puts you in a position of weakness?

Yes, when you fire Dean, you can be sure that Dean is going to fire off like a son of a bitch.

But he hasn't been exactly sitting quietly in his cell, I understand, up to now.

Oh, I still feel that you've got to do the lead, Francis.

I just don't think there's an answer, but particularly the way that I've discussed it now, if you understand.

I've discussed it.

You retain.

I know that I didn't ever expect you to walk out of the damn place without a use of your offices and your files and so forth.

And I don't expect to replace you, to be very frank.

Or John, for that matter.

I have to agree with you, I think.

on that i've tried to make the argument the other way just because i think i don't know maybe it's well no i think it is right to to you know not just feel one roots to question whether there are alternatives and they're viable the uh i just tell you i i on a personal basis it just isn't realistic

to think that I can come, if I stay, if you don't, if we don't take leaves, then I think the only other way you can go is on a 50-50 work basis.

In other words, if we put in 50%.

And I can't do that.

I mean, you know, we get into this stuff, like George Shultz, in the staff meetings, when you start talking about something, and I felt like saying, you know,

And Henry comes in and says, the bureaucracy's falling apart.

And I, you know, my reaction is, fuck the bureaucracy, Henry, let it fall.

And it's about time he took a little responsibility and came in to me and said, my Rogers won't approve Bayreuth and Kim, despite the fact that I wrote it up to him.

That's terrible on Roger's part.

Roger should.

God damn it to hell.

But the problem is, you won't.

See, that kind of thing, that's where my value is.

And you can't replace me with somebody to do that.

I've got to do that myself.

You're going to have to do it.

And I would.

And that's all.

It's too goddamn bad.

And it really is.

Maybe it's just necessary.

But for now, at least it's necessary.

And maybe something will evolve.

Well, I think you should.

The other thing I think you should do, without making him in any way White House chief of staff or replacing Hall, but I think you should start using Malik as an administrator in the White House.

Where is Malik now?

He's deputy director of the White House.

That's perfectly logical.

He already is.

Absolutely.

And give him the responsibilities.

I love administrators.

Let me talk to him and go over some of the things that, where he can be a, I just say, look, I'm taking leave of absence now, and the president needs some help in some of these areas, and you go to step in and lend a hand.

There's a way I want to handle the main problem, to be frank with you, your problem.

I want you and John to take a leave now, and that gives me an opportunity to move on to...

Dean, you know, has put that gun in our head.

He says, well, he says, I'll resign if they resign or something.

There are orders for that and all that bullshit.

I don't want you to put this to John this way, but I'm just telling you, I don't want comments.

The point that I make is, I want to make this one.

And then I'm in a position to say to Dean, all right, you know, you've got to go by, you know what I mean?

Well, that goddamn justice thing bothers me now.

And I have to agree with John.

I think you're being had by Peterson.

What can I do about it?

I don't know.

Can I tell him that I did not want to see the grand jury testimony?

Well, yeah.

You're not asking for the testimony.

You're asking for his evaluation of the charges.

But that's about where we're at.

We're still low there.

I cannot just pray to God that we live through this thing.

We love it.

We don't live through it.

And then I'll do my job at that Justice Department.

Don't worry.

We'll live through it.

Thank you all for sharing.

Well, you and John will help me.

So will you.

Live through it.

Come out there and love it.

It's interesting, the internal people that have argued strongly about don't go, which is a hell of a lot of them, incidentally, and sure, within the staff, I feel that maybe the leave is, you know, they see that leave makes sense.

You guys, Pershing, who incidentally, I don't know if you want this or not, I think maybe you might, he took a stab at drafting a speech

As he says, it's not, he's got a one bad idea, thinks he ought to go to the John Sessions Conference, which is absolutely wrong.

But, I mean, he also says himself that it's too long.

He says, well, you should go for it, and it's only four pages.

It's about a tenth of what any of your speechwriters would give you.

But he says, cut it shorter than this.

Because he says, it ought to be a Gettysburg Address.

It ought to be damn quick and done.

But, and he says,

I can't write in the president's time.

I know that.

So he should not look at it as a draft of a speech.

He should look at it as some ideas.

Yeah.

And he's, it's very obvious, but he covers it.

When I'm covered, he makes the case pretty well.

All right.

So that, what does he say about it?

He says, he says, I guess, and he puts it in the speech.

That's wrong, too, because it should be done before.

He said this period is a difficult one.

The charges against individuals within this administration are serious charges.

During this period, there may be those on my staff who feel that their time must be spent arranging their defense as charges are made against them.

If that time takes them away from their official duties, I'll grant those members of my staff leaves of absence.

These leaves will automatically be turned into termination if the circumstances so warrant.

It's a hard-hitting speech.

Bob, we need to make a move.

We really have to, that's it, we've got to move so that we aren't, I mean, Ray goes, and I'll say, you know what I mean, I think, I just think you and John have, gosh, it kills me, it's like cutting off both of my arms, two balls, you know what I mean?

But I just know it's right, I just know that.

We've got to, you can't.

I meant to do it, I decided, you know, we at least have done something.

If it was wrong, then it was wrong.

Well, I have to agree.

I, I, if we can work it on, and I realize this makes it less valuable, but the public doesn't know whether we still come into our office or not, whether we have an office, and we wouldn't be in all the time.

Oh, no, no, no.

The whole point is if you come in, somebody will say, yes, you're having to work out your papers and so forth, collecting things together.

And all that matter, you're going to need to do it some.

When some of these things come, you know, the new stuff comes up, you're going to need something.

Right.

And I think you have, if it's established that we're around here, it isn't odd that we're here.

If we haven't come roaring in, we'll get spotted.

They'll tell us.

I've got a, now I've got to find a hotel.

It sits outside my house all night.

Right.

And, uh,

And we just know there's a bucket of turds that they're going to keep logging out day after day.

Also, if we're on a leave, we can do some public stuff that we can't do as staffers.

I think we can.

I think we can make some statements sometimes and put them out.

I think right now, if I make a statement, it'll get them good blood.

I've got to weigh that damn carefully instead of, what, weigh every what you say.

And also, why did he, I don't know what the Christ, I mean, oh, well, whatever Dean has, he's going to use anyway.

I'm sure of that.

He's never going to give me the right name.

And all these guys, as far as the President was concerned, had gotten that compensation on the 21st, and I don't know why that worries me.

You know, Larry reminded me of something that I had totally forgotten.

He said he told me at the time, but it's kind of fascinating in the context of all this.

He said, Jesus, you know, he said, I told you, and you didn't pay any attention, and I should have pushed harder on it.

But at the time, he was up on the mountain.

He talked to Larry at some point, called him on something.

Larry said, how's it coming?

He gave him a report, right?

And Dean said, no, can't do a damn thing on the report, but I've got 60 pages of working out my own defense, and it's beautiful.

That's what he was doing.

Come back to that conversation again, Bob.

You can live with that conversation.

You can rosy head it.

That's almost unbelievable, but in this case you've got to admit even the totally unbelievable as possible.

If he did, you can live with that.

It's going to be damn tough.

Even that is survivable.

And that's the absolute bedrock behind the very words.

Because we say then that the purpose of that was to try to get him to grow out of this thing.

If he does that, then you have no more compunctions about destroying him.

So you go all out on a total basis to destroy him.

Which should be done anyway, but you can't be able to.

Not because the merits of it.

The merit is there, but because of the... What are you talking about?

I don't think we're all there here to know the conversation ourselves.

That's right.

There's some bad parts and there's some good parts.

That's right.

But you've got to look at it in its overall and in the context of when it was and under what purpose and what you were trying to accomplish.

And, as pointed out, the threat and the discussion of the threat there had nothing to do with the water game.

I mean, the hunt track.

Not yet.

It had to do with keeping them quiet.

That would give them violent national security.

But on the other hand, we weren't going to do it.

When we came through the conversation, particularly when we came to that last part, it seemed to be quite clear that we, didn't I say at one point that it would be wrong, or what else?

No, no, don't read about that.

But you did.

Or how did I say it?

A paper show.

A great paper show.

It is.

We're starting to get some orders all in.

We've got to assume he's told his partner.

I guess he asked us about the later meeting with Mitchell.

where Mitchell raised the subject, and said, indeed, that is mine, is that right?

And then Mitchell said, well, I guess it's taken care of.

That's my recollection.

Well, Bob, no use for us talking to ourselves about that stuff, but you know the whole conversation now, even to yourselves.

God damn fighters all the time.

I don't consider it to be a conversation piece of everything.

You know what I mean?

Why didn't you say it?

You did.

I was talking to this fellow, and he was suggesting that I pay him off.

And I said, well, we can get $100,000.

Maybe it's very important that we get it.

And, well, we can get it with the dollars.

How do we get it to him?

Maybe the Cubans can get it to him.

And you're finding out all kinds of things there.

You're finding out what they're doing, who's doing it, what means they're using to do it.

And all this is brand new to you.

He's locked onto you, and this is one little item in it.

A whole ton of stuff that you ask questions about.

Smokedown.

Where does this mean?

What do you mean by that?

Where does it lead?

What would you do about that?

What are our options?

That's the last we've discussed options.

You could tell the truth.

Or you could...

I'll get the facts.

I did not say it three times.

Let's get the facts out.

Oh yeah, that's what we're sending back to the mountain for.

We've got that, I tell you, that you saying get the facts out of them is just, you know, comes up all the time.

Well, I have to think more, I guess, of that.

Except you said that I do hear you've got a bike full of them.

I don't think you'll manage to have that in absence.

And you've broken the price of not getting a little talk yet.

Well, I'll talk to you later about it.

Not that you're in any kind of disarray, but a very brief break.

Very brief break.

I'll talk to you later about that.

Of course, he's going to show you what will have happened.

As a matter of fact, you better have Ron talk to Price, because Price has written me a long memo about why I have to resign.

Has he?

Yeah.

It's a totally asinine memo about purgation and absolution.

Oh, Christ.

Maybe you would invite me to do the speech.

Maybe we can do it.

We can.

Maybe that's better.

It's going to be mine at the end of the day.

What the hell?

I'm not impressed if it will take us a while.

Because it might be something you want.

He may have...

He's got some good ideas on some of it.

And, uh, I think... And his...

He's written a typical Ray Price soul-searching letter to me.

What it does is delineate the garment theory.

That only I am strong enough and big enough to step out of it.

I can go down knowing that I have served the nation well.

I thought I could at church that way.

I gave it up.

Oh, boy.

You can't.

Can I?

You've got to go the other way.

What's the other way?

That way.

Next stage.

Here you go.

so we're going to get anything from peter's

That's right.

But you've got to look at it in its overall, and in the context of overall, and when it was, and under what purpose, and under what purpose, and what you were trying to accomplish.

And is...

Pointed out, and his point of threat, and the discussion of the threat, and the discussion of the threat there had nothing to do with the water game.

The threat there had nothing to do with the water game.

In the, in the, in the hunt, the hunt.

Not yet.

But on the other hand, we were trying to do it.

When we came, we weren't going to do it.

When we came through the conversation, particularly, we came to that last part.

It seemed to be quite clear that we did not say at one point that it would be wrong to do it at one point.

Yeah.

No, no, don't read it wrong.

You did.

Or how did I say it?

Yeah.

No, no, don't read it wrong.

Very steeper.

We're starting to end this whenever this all ends.

Fire.

I guess yeah.

Yeah.

And the meeting about the later meeting with Mitchell.

Where Mitchell raised the subject.

Conception.

Where Mitchell raised the subject.

Conception.

And Dean had to buy it.

Is that right?

And then Mitchell said, well, I guess it's the same character.

Is that right?

And then Mitchell said, well, I guess it's the same character.

That's my record.

That's my recollection.

Hold on.

I'm not used to the rest of it.

You know the whole conversation.

Hold on.

I'm not used to the rest of it.

You know the whole conversation.

I don't consider the whole conversation even to ourselves.

I don't consider it to be you know what I mean you know what I mean you know what I mean you know what I mean

It is very important that we get a million dollars.

And when we get a million dollars, how do we get it to them?

How do we get it to them?

And you're finding out all kinds of things there.

You're finding out what they're doing, who's doing it.

You're finding out all kinds of things there.

You're finding out what they're doing, who's doing it, what means they're using to do it.

And all this is branded, using to do it.

And all this is branded.

He's locked onto you.

And this is branded.

He's locked on to you.

A whole ton of stuff that you ask questions about.

Where does this mean?

What do you mean by that?

That's the last we've discussed options, isn't it?

You could tell the truth, isn't it?

Or you could...

I did not say through three times, let's get the facts, say through three times, let's go.

Oh, yeah.

That's what we get the facts of.

Sending back to the mountain for it.

We got that, I'll tell you.

Oh, yeah.

That's what we're sending back to the mountain for it.

We got that, I'll tell you.

You saying get the facts out of it.

It comes up all the time.

you know, comes up all the time.

Well, I have to take more, I guess, of that.

Except you said that I do have to take more, I guess, of that.

I do have to take more, I guess, of that.

Not long.

Of course, you can't say not long.

But what will have happened?

Of course, you couldn't say, well, what will then happen?

So you'd say the little digger's got some problems that I have.

Matter of fact, you'd better have.

So you'd say the little digger's got some problems that I have.

Matter of fact, you'd better have Ron talk to Price, because Price has written me a long run.

Talk to Price, because Price has written me a long of why I have to resign.

Has he?

Yeah.

It's a total memo about why I have to resign.

It's an asinine memo about, yeah, purgation and asinine absolution.

It's a total asinine memo about purgation and asinine absolution.

Maybe you decide to do the speech.

It's going to be mine in the end anyway, what the hell.

Maybe with you, you can.

It's going to be mine in the end anyway, what the hell.

Not that Christ took us away.

Why?

Because there might be something you want.

He may have... Because there might be something you want.

He may have...

He's got some good ideas on some of them.

I think.

And his...

He's written...

He's written... What?

a typical right price soul searching letter, a typical right price soul searching letter to me, what it does is, what it does is delineate the garment, delineate the garment there, there, yeah, that only I am strong enough, I'm big enough to step out, that only I am strong enough, I'm big enough to step out, oh yeah,

I can go down knowing that I have served the mission well.

I thought I could, I sure as hell would.

I gave it up.

You gotta go the other way.

Yeah.

Say we're back in, I'll be brief.

We, uh...

We're not going to get anything from the computers.