Conversation 908-024

Transcript (AI-Generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.

I want you to know I was not directing my last comment at you.

I was directing Percy, but I want to tell you one thing.

I want you to stay alert about everything that you have to say.

Because basically, you may as well play the game like the rest of them.

You know what I mean?

Percy has gone beyond pale when he takes on Richardson and that, because if there's anybody that's going to be a special prosecutor, it's L.A. Richardson.

Sure.

The other thing is this, that a call you made, apparently, or one of your people made for you about a great jury, and our caller had a discussion.

Talked to Holmes.

Huh?

I talked to Holmes.

Yeah.

But you say that, I totally forget it.

It's very important that that be forgotten, you know, because, hell, uh, the thing is only something where you're actually involved.

Well, I'm not involved.

It's a political, it could be political.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

You understand what I mean.

You're not involved at all, good God, not the butt pits.

But, but my point is that...

You've got to be very sure, I don't want anyone to ever think that there was ever any discussion between the Vice President and a member of the White House staff with regard to a grand jury, so he'll just forget you ever talked to Haldeman.

I told Haldeman, when he told me about it, I said, for God's sakes, you forget that the Vice President ever talked to you about it.

You understand?

In the present atmosphere.

Oh, I know, I know.

The present atmosphere.

They'll think, well, for God's sakes, we were trying to get ahold of Glenn Bell's son.

He's a prosecutor.

Right.

Now we have done something about it, but what I mean is something I think, when I say we have, I think in a discreet way, maybe something has been done, but I wanted you to know that by all means to keep yourself free from all this.

Because you have got to be free, free and independent.

In other words, take your own line.

and the like, uh, you don't need to get involved in this whole business on the Watergate thing, sir, that you just have confidence in to not let the United States down.

You just say, all the facts should come out, period.

I wouldn't get in a person position, however, because of Chief Walker.

Mr. President, may I say just a few things?

I don't know whether you misconstrued what I did yesterday or not when I called that press conference, but I hope you did.

No, I thought it was fine.

Times tried to indicate that I was being patronizing.

I got your information.

What I meant is that they're going to be asking you now to say something.

Don't say anything.

I'm just telling you, you don't need to.

You see what I mean?

Well, I just want you to know that— You don't need to say a damn word.

I want to—I'm part of this team.

I know, but look, Ed.

Look, you've got to keep yourself free.

There's you well-known.

There's you.

There's Reagan, who did call me last night.

and Nelson, I guess, was who got the B in his mind.

So that's all there is.

I just want you folks to...

Reagan, of course, you never know what he'll do, but you've got your constituency, and I just want you to know as a friend that I want you to be as free as the driven snow here, and by golly, I understand totally, and I think it's very important that you never be in a position where you appear to be in an honest with the president.

which I always supported and played with Eisenhardt, but on the other hand, you've got to appear that you are your own man, you see?

And on the other hand, things may get in the way, because it's going to come out, I think, it's going to come out.

But hell, if you don't have anything left with Ehrlichman and Hallman, those people, God damn it, if something happens to them, make sure it's going to happen.

That's all there is to it.

No reason for you to be involved at all if you don't know it.

You didn't know anything more about Watergate than I did.

Thank God.

But I'd like to take this opportunity to express the hope that I might be of more use.

I don't know.

I don't care about it.

I've been thinking about ways we could, now that we're going to reorganize, give it some thought.

And maybe we can find some ways.

But I want you to know very much, very, very much so that I don't expect any statements from you.

I don't want you to think that you can't go on.

Don't get out there.

Look, let's face it.

Those bastards in the press, you know what they are.

And don't give them any opportunity to say you're against the president.

But don't give them any opportunity to say you're pimping for the president.

See my point?

All they will do then will be tear you down.

Keep yourself out there so you can speak on the issues.

That's the best thing.

Make the big plays.

That's what I want you to do.

And it'll work out.

Within a few months, they'll find something else.

Because, you know, you're a fighter.

Like you were after November 3rd, you went out there and stuck your neck out to the person I understand and took the press on.

And I appreciate it, but don't do it now.

Don't do it now.

You've got three years before this election, and by golly, if you're, you know, if you should decide to be a candidate, and God knows who's going to be at that.

But gee whiz, I want you to be in a position where they, where they cannot, in any event, in any way, have anything on, you know, where they can tear you down, because of something you had nothing to do with.

I understand what you mean, Mr. President, and I certainly will.

be guided by that, but I'm more interested in serving these three years properly.

Well, I think the confrontation has now come about as a good one.

It's over.

It's done.

Well, I mean, it's over.

It's over.

There's going to be the build-up, and we know there are going to be implications.

Some people are going to be involved, and a lot of embarrassment is going to come out.

A lot of innocent people are going to suffer, if you know what I mean.

But I told Bob Haldeman when he had the courtesy to call me and tell me this thing, I said, you know, anything I can do to help, because irrespective of what people might think, Haldeman and I had a very good relationship.

I know that.

And even though Ehrlichman and I didn't get along, principally because... Because you didn't like each other.

The problem was that I felt like I should be more in the inner workings of the administration.

I guess it's what vice presidents have always suffered from.

You're out of the flow, but what I would...

I'd just like to be taken... Whatever is helpful.

I don't have any...

I would restrict myself about what I'd like to do.

Well, it might not be the...

It's a hard—these are hard times for law and order, Mr. President.

Because the minute we start talking about wounded knee and things like that, we get this, well, these bastards are talking about wounded knee, and here they are— What do you mean?

—handling their own family, and— That'll pass.

Within a year, people will wonder what it's about.

And now in the country, believe me, things are quite different than they are here.

Oh, yeah.

And I'd like to— One old wish that is quite true, you know.

I'd like to do some more foreign science.

I'd like to do some of that, whatever it is.

Press, any area that you think would be profitable, I'd like to do.

That, I think, frankly, is your best dish.

And I like it, and I think I do it fairly well.

Well, basically, it's your best dish due to the fact that you see it's your rank.

You do it well.

And frankly, nobody can be against it.

Nobody can be.

Now that the war is over, we hope for a while.

And I've been thinking of that.

I don't think you should write it down, because we're so involved with the Congress.

But if I were advising, I would try to work like hell with the...

I've spent a lot of time with the...

members in the house, the good guys up there.

Yeah, I'm doing that.

And basically I would draw lines like, for example, while I wouldn't have much to do with a Percy, I'd have a lot to do with a Brooke.

Yeah.

Really, Brooke's a decent fellow.

Percy, why'd Percy take us on?

You know, why?

Because he's trying to put distance on everything, isn't he?

Have you done anything worse than this?

He had no—he's completely amoral as far as— No, but really, since this second affair has begun, I've found that Percy's been with us on every budget cold water over the years.

No, he's— And I think he's made his choice, and that's perfectly all right.

But I must say, I don't think Mathias is much better, except he's— No, but he's not quite as bad.

Well, Mathias agrees.

He's a very good publicist, much.

What's the matter with Wagner, Jack?

What's the matter?

I never—when I went up to campaign for him last time, he's a poor quality man, Mr. President.

That's all I can say.

What do you mean, poor quality man?

He'll do anything to further his own ambitions.

He's hungry for notoriety, and he'll do anything just to get attention.

He's like the kid that kicks the furniture.

And I don't have any confidence in him.

What do you have in mind in the form of travel?

What do you think?

You've been to Asia quite a bit.

Well, I'd sort of like to go the other direction.

Maybe, I don't know, Europe or possibly some of the Middle Eastern countries, if that could be helpful or not.

So, you know, I understand, I remember we talked about, you know, Egypt and the rest.

At the moment, nothing seems to be ready to cook, but if it does, you'll go, believe me.

I think it'd be great if you could go there.

In other words, if we ever get a deal, if we, for example, get an interim deal on the Suez,

which we were desperately working for.

Gosh, you could go to Egypt, you know, Algeria, places like that, and they'd give you a hell of a welcome.

They really would.

And Israel, of course.

But could I do something to help back in the intergovernmental situation?

Would that be helpful now?

Now it seems to me if I could be reverted into that, I think I could go around and talk to these governors, our governors, and clamp down a lot of this.

darn speculation that comes out of these papers.

I don't give a damn about it.

Sincerely, I don't care about the 76.

I don't want to commit suicide.

But look, I'm a fact that my purpose is to help you.

Let me say this, you're a fact, and Ted, you've got to keep alive, and maybe you are, maybe you aren't, but the point is, you know, there are only very few.

We face the tough thing that the Democratic candidate will be Teddy Kennedy.

We can't let that happen to this country.

I think it will be.

We can't let this happen.

No, I understand.

We can't let this happen.

You've got to stay alive.

Reagan's got to stay alive.

Rocky's got to stay alive.

That's the point.

about all the Republicans we've got.

How many of the Democrats are going to show up?

But I could, I think if, in some way publicly, if I could get back into that area, I could do some things.

How could we do it?

Well, if you're going to put coal in charge of this, the whole domestic policy thing.

You think the governmental thing is a good thing for you?

I don't know whether it is or not, but I think it's very important

to politics in the country and to overcoming the impressions.

You know, I learned something in 68 when I came back from that debilitating experience of having the press cut me to pieces, that first campaign swing.

Yeah, that's why I told the captain in there, you know, before they jumped on Hall and Murray, remember, they made me next.

They weren't after you, they were after me.

No, I know.

But when I came back, a group of about fifty of my friends gave a little party.

I'd been out for a couple of months, and I thought it was like coming back into the womb.

I thought they were going to say, my God, Ted, what are they doing to you?

That's not what they said.

They said, what the hell are you doing?

They didn't say, what are they doing to you?

They said, my God, Ted, what are you doing?

That's the credibility of the media reports.

That's what they've got you doing.

Even if these people had known me a long time, they believed what they were reading.

Now, that's why I say it's...

In other words, they don't believe you know the country.

They didn't expect the country.

No, that's right.

But we've got to... Well, I might be intergovernmental, but can't we think of something else?

Basically, you and...

You like coal, don't you?

Oh, I get along fine with coal.

I get along fine with that.

I'd like to have a—I'd like to be closer to the policy-making people.

Right, I know.

I haven't—I learn things after they're accomplished.

I don't get to— It's always a way to go, Vice President, but— I know.

But we're going to have—we're going to have more cabinet meetings and so forth, more SEC meetings and so forth, and you'll be in on all that, and that is where the policy's made.

Matter of fact, I'll tell you what I'll do.

I'll tell you what I'll do.

Why don't we do this?

You're probably one of the biggest issues right now.

It's this whole business of what the hell we do, what are we going to do of the wage pricing and the rest.

Would you like to bring you in on that?

Bring you in on the quadriad?

Would you like to do that?

Well, I'd do— That's a big stunt.

There's going to be a meeting tomorrow.

I'll have you.

It'll be the first time or twice that it's ever sat in on one.

How about that?

All right, that'll be good.

Now, you like economics.

I mean, if I'm putting a light on it or not, we've got to get— It's terribly important.

It has a lot of political overtones.

Sure.

All right.

Why don't we start—why don't we take that as an opener?

All right, sir.

And I'll have—I'll tell Wiley.

He doesn't follow here.

What's his name?

Steve Bowen.

From now on, you don't have to worry.

You didn't have to worry before.

People brought them home, blocked people from you and so forth.

But whenever you want to see me, call Steve up or the rest, and I'm available.

Good God, I mean— I try not to— Vice President can always get a miss on this.

I try not to see you for cosmetics.

I know, I know.

But whenever you have reasons that you want to talk about something— Perhaps also with Ken.

I could work—I can work very well with Ken on the domestic matters if you want to.

to make me the vice-chairman of the domestic council and me to follow some of that policy development.

I'll be glad to do that.

Whatever you think would be helpful.

Vice-chairman of the domestic council?

Am I the chairman?

You're the chairman.

Of the domestic council?

That's the way it used to be.

See, it's over the register.

It's in here.

Get with it.

Oh, I've got to pull it up now.

Yes, sir.

I think I can help a lot with this.

Yes, sir.

And I would meet with some of the subgroups with Ken where he needed some

to get with senators or representatives or whatever.

But remember, I said that you would follow my advice.

Stay away from it.

Yes, sir.

I'll follow your advice.

You don't need to say a damn thing.

I mean, in other words, above the course, defend the integrity of the president, good God, as you well know.

I may be, you know—

What really made me angry about the reports in the news magazines was they said I had—was patronizing by saying I had full confidence in the president and the way he was handling Watergate and his integrity.

They left off the fact that I was trying to correct unattributive quotes

that it surfaced that the Vice President was appalled at what— Well, you were going to resign.

Yeah, I was trying to shut off— They had reported you were going to resign.

I knew that was false.

I was trying to shut off all that stuff.

That's why I went on and said, when I have something to say, I'll— That's one of the reasons, one of the reasons that I think maybe—

My reason to say, stay away from it, is that anything you say, Jeff, is not even... Don't be twisted.

Don't say a word.

Just stay local.

And you know what you should say?

That the Attorney General, and what Diane Zegler said today, the Attorney General, has advised that any comment on this matter, it would be improper, and you're not going to comment upon it in any way, whatever, period.

Politically, politically, legally, right away.

Period.

That's what I'm going to say.

I'm going to talk about it again.

Yes, sir, and that's— Let the Goldwaters and the rest of them get out and raise up the Democrats for their ominous and so forth, but how does that sound to you?

That sounds good.

But you stay away from—you don't need to get—I understand, I understand totally.

And I'm not going to be, I don't want you to, I don't want you to, but if you get in the business of seeing a special prosecutor like a Percy in there, I said, that kind of stuff, it really kills us.

Percy didn't even go on our law day in law.

What kind of damage, you know?

We're doing everything we can here.

They do it.

You know, but you see, if anybody in the administration does it, then it makes it, we haven't thought of it.

We've thought of it and rejected it for good reasons.

But if you could stay away from this totally, I think that would be good.

No, I'll simply say I made a statement.

That's all I have to say.

As a matter of fact, that's what I said after I made the statement, that that's all I have to say.

No further comment on that.

Because you can't win.

They'll twist whatever you say entirely right.

There's no way you can be accurately quoted without being taken out of context.

And I sure appreciate what you must be going through.

I'm sorry about that.

But the important thing is, if you need me, for God's sake, call me, mister.

I will.

Hello again, how are you?

Oh, yeah.

And in order to get some of this load off of me, which I'm starting to have to have, I want you to get out a directive that he needs to be the vice-chairman as a half of the Department of Commerce.

Which I think would be a very, very help for you.

The other thing is that

In that respect, and Ted, don't bring up the Bill of Staff, please.

Don't go into that stuff.

The other thing is, as Vice Chairman of the Domestic Council, Ted, giving Frank a lot of responsibility for the intergovernmental stuff.

Let him talk to the governors and people like that.

Will you do that?

Yes, sir.

How does that sound to you?

That'll work out very well.

Do you understand?

Because you're going to have a big load on your shoulders.

Yes, sir.

I know.

So the Vice President was there.

And the thing I would do is that I would head him in.

and a lot of these meetings and so forth.

Another thing, if you followed through and I couldn't get both, I think it would be a very good thing if we had the Vice President sit in on the Quadrant meeting tomorrow.

It's because it involves political as well as other considerations.

And that would be good.

That would work out well, I think.

Are you going to sit in on that?

Yes, sir, I am.

Fine.

All right.

And you tell Schultz that I've added the vice president to the quadri-ed group because I want to get his view.

How's that?

Fine.

All right.

Now, what else do you want to do?

Whatever I can do to be helpful.

And I don't care about cosmetics.

I want to do something important to you.

I know.

Well, these will be helpful.

It'll help get a great deal of them.

You see, them and I were mentally counseling.

If races, tax returns, and the vice president will decide over a meeting with them, they'll all come.

Oh, I believe he can be very, very helpful with them.

We can utilize his element, no problem.

Or I believe he can.

I hope that we...

Yeah, I told the President, you and I worked very well together on— You can do that.

All right.

And from now on, he should be President of the Co-op Rehab Committee.

Just tell, uh, tell, uh, tell Shelton that's my direct—er, no, yes, sir.

So, uh, that's going to take a lot of your time.

Well, I expect it.

I'm delighted.

Stay miles away.

No, I don't want you to say one word about what I did.

Never.

Either way.

No way.

They'll misinterpret it.

If you say something positive yet, they're going to say, well, he's trying to cover up.

If you say something negative, they'll say, ah, the vice president.

They've got to do it in the other position.

Leave it right where it is.

And you could just say, I can make it clear to say, look, I have confidence in figuring with the president.

But beyond that, I'm not going to take any terms.

How long do you think this thing is going to drag out?

What do you mean?

But the public will get, I think, tired after a while.

I think so.

Unless there are new people constantly servicing.

That would keep it aligned with the— Well, there are not many new big people that could service us, too.

You see, you've got Mitchell and Stans first that will be questioning him.

Who the hell's else going to be?

I'm afraid so.

When I say I'm afraid so, uh, I don't know.

I know I'm not an original, but, yeah.

Let me say, I don't—I'm not going to judge any of them.

I don't know, but his name is on the list of those who are going to go after him.

Dean, Erlichman, and Holloman, and so forth.

But let's just not, you're a lawyer.

I believe that the man's innocence was proved guilty.

Absolutely.

I don't think any of them are certainly guilty in what they intended.

I trust they're not guilty in what they did.

Sir, I'm sure, I'm sure that Erlichman and Holloman's case, they are not.

In Dean's case, I just haven't talked to him enough.

I don't know him that well.

I think what they did to Ehrlichman on that Besko thing, anybody in politics that gets a call from a constituent and can't even make a courteous inquiry to have somebody call them, my God, it's ridiculous.

Well, also in this case, he called the name embassy and said, don't do it.

But that's what White House is for.

We get scores of calls like that.

And Besko— Let me ask a question.

Suppose he had had a call from somebody to—

register a complaint about the treatment in Johannesburg of some black activist, there wouldn't have been any question.

There would have been a different attitude about it instead of what happened.

Take the IPT thing.

If white Africa were expropriating some property belonging to some minority, you know, holy cow.

That's a double standard.

Oh, a double standard.

But, you know, another thing, too, is if I were you, I'd lay off of your people in office.

You'd have your competition with the press.

They'll kiss their ass.

And basically just be there.

Be there now.

You'd be good.

You'd just keep yourself.

and dignity and everything, and to work hard.

And I just want to keep all of my art people, including that old man, Captain, they're good men.

I just hate to see Glyndy go.

He's such a good man.

But he had to go, because you've got to have Glyndy's positive potential.

Pretty hard even to have Richardson, but Richardson doesn't know Mitchell that well.

I think Richardson was an excellent selection, because he has the confidence of a lot of

And a lot of the Eastern establishment.

There's a lot of the Eastern establishment, the intellectual community and whatnot, and that's very important to get a fair shake in how this is reported.

It's not what really happens, it's how it's reported.

It's quite important.

I know you get discouraged, too.

I'm not discouraged.

I feel better already.

We're going to win.

The main thing is this, you know, politics is a game of up and down and things and so forth.

They've shot their, they've shot, I know, a lot.

They'll shoot some more.

But you know what?

I am really glad that they've pricked the boil now.

Isn't it better to have this come out now than in the urban committee?

In the urban committee, they would have had this, it would have been on the evening news.

That'll still believe that it was done, but it sort of has to early when all of them are gone.

They aren't, you know, they aren't near the stars they were before.

Dave Mitchell isn't the star he was before, is he?

That's true.

They haven't got the play anymore, and I predict that they'll do a lot less.

Of course, Mr. Sam's been up there a long time.

It's been a long time before that light show, and it's going to be hard to get him off center stage to some extent.

You know, they're... Yeah.

He's...

He enjoyed the attention, but I think he's a fair enough man to know— Is he fair?

I think he is, yeah.

I think the statement he made in concert with Baker about Haldeman with all that stuff was being quoted was a pretty fair thing to do, didn't you?

But he came out and said he didn't have any evidence.

That's true.

But he didn't have to say it.

He did say it.

Well, we certainly have admired your courage in this thing.

The main thing is I want you to know, and I don't want anybody to misinterpret any of that, I just want you to stay a thousand miles away from it and don't get in it at all.

My golly, this politics is a rough game.

Other members of the cabinet have got no political future.

They can let them get in there and do a little slashing around.

Remember Harold Ickes?

Christ, he was never going to be president or vice president, so he could be a hatchet man.

You should be.

You, by God, should be.

I mean, you just be Mr.

Working Vice President.

Fair enough?

Yes.

I'm glad you talked to me.

I did listen to you.

I thought you misinterpreted what I had done when I made the statement.

No, I just want you to stay away from this damn case.

Stay away from it because of the political situation.

I won't say a word.

Unless you direct me to it, whatever you want me to do.

If you find it's important that I insert myself anywhere, you just tell me.

Meanwhile, I follow the directive.

How's Mr. Brandt?

Oh, not the same as his usual stuffy self.

A little naive about his first relations.

What will ever happen to Berlin?

going to stay that way forever such an artificial situation of course i think what you're doing gives it a better chance to eventually get resolved if we can have this detente with the soviet union and that thing the other day when i called you after that meeting that was unbelievable to me to hear sue jackson who i thought was a very intelligent guy

Now, Rybakov and Javits on those constituencies, I have never been more disappointed in a group of men when they had it laid out, had the cable read, saw how far the leaders of the Soviet Union had gone to be accommodating.

Now, and to go over and tell a person, a country, how to direct its domestic affairs, that's what it amounted to.

How would we react if somebody came over here and said, now look, with regard to the

This current domestic dispute, the Daily Worker editorializing, you better do so-and-so.

That'd be ridiculous.

We couldn't do that.

We could lose face, letting the Soviet Union direct that kind of discussion.

Let me have a cigarette, and then I'll come back to you.

I don't know how you can constrain

under those circumstances.

A little hard.

I thought we had a good deal with them.

Great.

Isn't that great?

Now, I can understand Jonathan Rivkoff, but I can't understand Jackson.

Was his constituency so firmly rooted in the Jewish community?

Not personally, but you see, the Jews were the ones that sustained the Jackson candidacy for president.

Remember when he was running?

Because he was hard-line on more Jets for Israel.

Oh, I see.

You remember?

Sure.

And then he was, you remember, he was the guy that got that three guys' money today.

I'll tell you this, though.

You've got a lot of Jewish friends in Baltimore, and I've got some that, believe me,

They're awful hard to maintain.

They require constant attention.

What have you done for me today?

What did you do for me yesterday?

But that's a serious issue.

Has there been any movement on their part on that?

Well, I happened to kill you the next day.

We've done a good thing.

Oh, I thought you should know that the, uh, we, uh, I'm naming the Vice President as Vice Chairman of the Domestic Council, the Iron Chamber of the Domestic Council, so that, you know, is part of the organization, the Vice President of the Domestic Council, uh, with, uh, with major responsibilities in the field of, uh, of inter-governmental relations, how that's online.

So you can put that out.

In other words, put it out whenever you maybe have your ambulance briefed already.

Right.

This will not be a good day.

Fine.

Put her out tomorrow.

Fine.

Also, we're bringing in more of the things.

I'm going to use him in the quadriads.

He's going to have the quadriads.

But just put that out a little key.

Just let it be.

He'll be there.

Right.

We're going to have the quadriads because it involves some really different situations.

Well, I don't know.

Well, they might.

He got that.

I mean, I'd ask for someone, oh my God, maybe he got the impression that I was saying he should watch out for his own religion.

He's the only one in there, however, who has any religion.

But I do not want him to say, to get involved in this in any way or other.

In other words, if the press ever raises this, you would say this, the press has instructed the members of the cabinet to say, to make no statements.

So, here's the point.

Howie Richardson, the new attorney general, has indicated that no statement should be made with regard to this matter because they might prejudice the rights of innocent people or also might prejudice the prosecution.

So therefore, there should be no comment, whatever.

Now, that gets the vice president the hell off the hook.

I don't want the president to go in there and say, do you think the president's handled it?

Take the special prosecutor thing.

And that's not that thing that Percy, you know what that does?

That raises a, that's a little son of a bitch.

The day I put White Alley Richard, what does he put a special prosecutor?

You know, he's got a right to appoint a special prosecutor.

And for him to come in and make a statement like that,

immediately reflects on the honesty of what we're trying to do.

Don't you agree?

You know, you saw the statement I sent.

Well, at least you got it.

Everybody knows where I stand on Percy today.

That was exactly what I said in my statement.

Any comment about the substance of the matter could prejudice the prosecution or the defense.

Well, then they picked up some little old thing that the vice president's ready to resign.

Well, at the time the Newsweek said I was being patronizing to the president by saying I had confidence in his integrity.

Well, now, you see my point?

I don't want him to say anything.

I say, look, you've had a long talk with the president.

Incidentally, I thought I had an hour's talk today about some of his support.

No, I put that on tomorrow, when you announce this, and we have the vice president and the president have a talk about something, and he's going to do a solution.

We need to build him up.

I want to build him up.

See, everybody's going to be watching for motion.

Let's just build him up, and he can do any more.

And I will.

I want to.

Oh, come on, then.

Forget that.

I mean, I personally want to.

I want to build him up for everything.

Look, I think it's just good for us.

It's good for us to show that there's action and that we've got a lot of good players in this team.

We've got a good strong man here who wants to work his butt off and that's that.

So I don't know if you can use it tonight or is it worth using?

I think the best time is tomorrow.

I'll get together with Marshal and we'll work out a way to end this fight.

I'll mention the brief, but there's a better way to move it too.

Yeah, maybe he said it.

We had a long talk.

I was better than the monitor.

you know, to help out at this time that we have this so-and-so invited.

So the president is named vice-chairman of the domestic council with special responsibilities for intergovernmental relations, particularly the relations with mayors, governors, and county officials.

And, you know, but not the, not the, if you say, well, is that what he used to do before?

Well, he's going to have a big staff.

He's going to have sort of, but he'll have special responsibilities in that area.

How about saying it this way?

The Vice Chairman of the Domestic Council has, in that capacity, along with the other responsibilities of the Vice Chairman, been asked to specially supervise the intergovernmental operations.

Is this fine?

That means that the operations are not moved, and I'm just... That means that he will have special responsibilities to supervise the intergovernmental relations staff,

Which is already there.

It's already there.

That's right.

And it also has the effect of saying, this is just not a move back into this, but this embodies all of the domestic operation.

That's right.

Actually, a story like this would move 50,000 off of it.

Move it, you know, on a background basis, and then move it on an announcement basis.

Thank you.

Okay, put out the back of the cabin.

Yes sir.

That was a good idea, wasn't it?

Yeah, it was good.

Get them all in there.

See if they're still alive.

Also figuring there, but for the grace of God, we're one of them.

It's bad to see Rice back.

He looks a little wan.

Those radiation treatments are tough.

They make you pretty tired.

Do they work?

Let's hope they do.

Fine.

You can handle that.

Nothing else new that I need to know about.

Yes, sir.

Well, the main thing is, you know, keep your old balance, Floyd.

Yes, sir.

Don't let it get you down.

You're going to beat it, don't you think?

I think the morale went up as a result of your meetings today.

Come to understand, I don't mind that.

Not that it wasn't up before.

My morale is better now than I am.

I went to these meetings today and I see everybody's pulling together.

A speech last night laid it out.

It's off dead center.

These people— Well, we have to do something.

When they see— You know, I know that, uh, a trucker sticks around around him.

He takes the hull and everything.

It was then, I'll never forget, Eisenhower in this room when he had the SAC Adams.

Thought he'd killed him.

It's like putting, as I said, putting hulls and everything together.

Because that is everything to him.

Everything.

And here are two men that have worked hard, that are loyal, that are honest, that are decent.

I had to tell them, nobody, I feel bad, this is where I start.

But I had to do it myself.

But Ron, we all, we all think it was right, don't we?

Yes, sir.

Right?

Or do you agree?

It was right.

So we go back and change our minds.

Yes, sir.

I can't feel bad.

It was right.

Now, I said to the Vice President, though, he said he felt things would cool off.

I said, oh, well, they're just going to heat it up against the President now and kick him to court.

They really have to, President, they would have been bad on all of America, or even everything.

Well, we have a good solid ground to play on from now, and I think, you know, that's

Incidentally, I hope you didn't get out, they didn't get out the starters, and that FBI man standing out in front of that door.

I remember you asking about that.

I was so shocked.

I threw the son of a bitch.

I mean, I'm sorry, but I was, he was standing out there in the hall blocking my path.

And I came walking in.

I said, who are you?

He said, you sit inside that door.

Get out of here.

Can you imagine that?

standing out in front of Haldeman's office.

The, uh, well, I'll talk to him.

What the hell was that, Phil?

I mean, that's, that's, that's, what do you think of this?

Isn't that a terrible, rotten, you know, said, you don't need any memorandum.

Just do it.

But those papers are mine.

They don't belong to Haldeman.

I couldn't believe it myself.

But who would have the temerity to do it?

That's what really happened.

I don't know who ordered the men out there, but as I understand it, Bob and John wanted this done, too.

And the reason for it, the thing got distorted because it broke on the wire without an announcement.

And then the press started coming in.

And we felt that the best way to handle it was to, they say, be very free about it.

And Bob and John wanted it for a preceding purpose.

But the reason they wanted, the reason, what I mentioned to you, Richardson and Ruggles House and Garment, I guess, talked about in last night's discussion with Bob and John, the reason they wanted this so that there could be no question later in Bob and John's admission, is the way I understand it.

That they'd write for the files.

That they'd write for the files and they wanted to go overboard.

I mean, the guy standing out front of the office, he could have sat in the office.

was to make absolutely sure that a week from now or a month from now, because they are involved in a transitional period, that a charge would not be made against Richardson in his procedure.

Or against Bob and John.

It would be unprovable that the process

They're transitioning.

By God.

Cosmetics do make a lot of difference.

And by God, we've got little secretaries and everything else running out here.

It looks like you've got these guys under house arrest.

They have now moved to...

This was... Nobody finished with that now.

Apparently, because they have now moved the files to a central location, and it's going to be all worked out in there.

So, that, that is an accident.

At first, the I.I.

guys probably got shocked beyond belief, because I said, I said, you get inside here.

Get inside.

Sit in there.

That's where you belong.

I was so curious.

I was.

Would you be mad?

I think.

Would you be mad?

Yes, indeed, I would.

I think you scared Elliot this afternoon.

I don't think you scared Elliot.

You scared everybody else.

You are no sir.

That's a great firm.

I've never seen you quite that firm, President.

Well, I didn't know sir.

You didn't look like you were about to take any nonsense from anywhere.

Well, you need to do that on the cross, don't you?

Yes.

The reason I said that is because I'm just interested in briefings, you know, after a week.

It's a bad story, though, being even in the brief.

Well, it must have been eye-banner out in front of the presidents, watching the presidents.

Oh, God, it just makes me sick.

Well, thanks a million.

It was a story anyway, you see, because, as I mentioned, it had leaked.

Leaked how?

The environment?

I don't know.

It moved on UPI and the people.

What the true picture was, and it wouldn't be as disparaging for Bob and John as a leak story would suggest FBI men were converting on land.

Well, where it is, it'll never be.

It was in that room.

They'll never forget what I said.

And you don't do that sort of thing.

You don't embarrass your own people.

They should have been inside, as you said.

standing there going, oh, Jesus Christ, I mean, I've never seen any overnight.

It is important that it is clear that the papers being properly handled from everyone's standpoint, from Bob and John and from the standpoint of the investigation, I think they overreacted.

I'll tell you what you might do is this.

You might even get out tonight, as the Vice President did.

I mean, as a matter of fact, the Vice President and the President had a two-hour meeting Saturday.

Why don't you say that?

I don't say what it was about.

I think tomorrow comes.

In other words, so that they know at least we're chatting.

Otherwise, I don't think, for Christ's sake, the Vice President General and everybody's abandoning shit.

Now, if it's going to hurt you, let me know.

You're kidding me.

He's a fighter.

Another thing I told him, Ron, I want you to watch it with him.

I don't want any confrontation with the government and press.

Don't have him take the press off, you understand?

I've been very careful.

Well, I know, I know, but you've been asking... As a matter of fact, I've even had some good comment about the recent press speeches I've made.

I'm going to talk to the Maryland Press Association tomorrow night about... Don't go too far.

Don't suck their ass too much.

But my point is, don't go to the point, Ron, where it looks like the Vice President is doing in order to suck up to him.

But the point is, I just want, I just want you to, let's, we're going to have a new relationship with the press.

Now then, you've got a few press guys that you ought to talk to.

Let Ron be your sort of press secretary, too, if you don't mind.

Well, Mark, Mark, I told Ron that when I picked Mark, he said that's not right.

I saw Bill White today, for example.

Good.

I think the President ought to see that statement so he'll know what I mean.

I don't.

Listen, I don't.

I know one thing.

Ron is one of the misinterpreted.

I'm not concerned about that.

What I'm talking about is I want you to stay away from the subject because any statement...

But this statement positions me to stay away from it because it says I'm not going to talk about it anymore.

But then they even misinterpreted that.

That's right.

Okay, Ron.

Okay, sir.

Have you got any easy problems there, Ron?

The tone has changed in the White House staff.

People are moving around more confident.

Because you have the initiative.

The press tone is...

I mean, there ain't anything, but it certainly puts us into a position to move to other things.

To other things.

That's why I write a few other stories.

Don't you think, sir?

Yes.

I said, Bob and John are still to be using their office.

I said, they're going to make their transitions.

You told them that.

It's going to take several weeks.

Well, I didn't get an advice that I didn't know.

People understand the separation, don't they?

We're not being harsh.

It's actually coming out.

It's not harsh.

Better than what is deemed to be involuntary.

But I do my thing.

I just feel a better sense of it.

I do.

You like that, don't you?

Yes.

You know, he's under fire, so— No, that's all that, but that's—he handled that very well, and so did you.

I think George Shultz is doing a hell of a job, too.

Yes, sir.

Okay, but now I'll—the vice president—he'll be in the Quadrant meeting tomorrow.

Right.

I wouldn't make a big thing out of that.

He just attends and announces that the vice president sat in, right?

He always sits in the NSC.

He sits in the leaders' meetings.

But I would announce tomorrow that he will be vice chairman of the

and uh and also we can help general take a few calls

Let that drift out later.

That's better.

Otherwise, every governor is going to call you.

The best thing we're going to do is to be bi-transacted, and then you get on the mark with the governors in July.

That's a good idea, and it'll surface as I go around.

Sure, but also, if you mention vice-chairman, it seems like you are empty of order.

That's it.

Very good.

Otherwise, it looks like you just went back to your old job.

Yes, that's right.

Good point, Ron.

I mean, you know where you want to be concentrating.

I think that would be much better, too.

I'll be concentrating on other areas, too, but that would be one of the ones that I want to get into principally and immediately, to contact our people, make sure they're informed.

I met with some of our party people in Arkansas, and they weren't all excited about this.

And then I met the Pennsylvania people the other day.

Well, they're pretty nervous types.

There's a very liberal party contingent up there, Cliff Jones and Sally Stauffer and Tom McCabe.

We've carried them, but that's—

They're part of the eastern viewpoint and much more affected by— There really is a difference there.

Oh, what a difference there is.

Like I said, the New Yorker out today sickens me.

Washington actions.

Yeah, but you're right, Mr. President.

The way you get at them is not by giving them something vulnerable to peck at.

You get at them by accomplishment.

That's how you got at them when you went to China and the Soviet Union.

because they can't ignore those stories.

They can't characterize those stories, and the war, of course.

And I get sort of disgusted when I hear people beginning to discuss academically the legal justification for the continued bombing in Cambodia.

The legal justification, when the Cambodian government wants it, when the North Vietnamese are in there aggressively against the agreement.

What's the matter with our people that they look to fight this battle on the enemy's grounds all the time?

I don't understand it.

But I've sat and watched you make some pretty tough decisions.

I never will forget that high-flying harbor when I guess that was the most unpredictable of all.

Because that was the doing the unthinkable when it had to be done.

And I really admire the way you've handled it and everything else in these

Well, anyway, get to work, and now, as I say, keep your table and your cap at least.

All right, and please, and I'll understand everything.

I know I'm a person, that hurts.

The moment you ever say anything, though, anything, they go, I don't see political ambition as not as fiery as it is inside of me.

Well, I appreciate that.

As a matter of fact, though,

That's life.

You're here.

And you've got to, and you know, you must not do, you must, you just do your job.

Do your job.

I have to walk out of here.

You're going to leave, okay?

I'm walking out.

But as I said, but as I said, but it all started again.

It all started again.

Because that is everything to him.

Everything.

I, until then, nobody.

Everything.

I, until then, nobody.

That's where I start.

But I have to do it myself.

But I know that's where I start.

Ron, we all, we all think it was right.

Yes, sir.

Or do you agree?

It was right.

So we go back.

I had to do it myself.

It was right.

No, I said to the Vice President, though, he said, but Ron, we all, you know, things have cooled off.

Heated up against the President now and kicked the court.

They really have to present the data because they all think it was right.

Yes, sir.

I mean, or do you hear about all of the errors or even anything?

Well, we have a little solid ground to play on from now on.

And I think, you know, it was right.

So we go back and change our minds.

Yes, sir.

As you said earlier.

Incidentally, I hope you didn't get out.

They didn't get out the starters and that FBI man standing out in front of the door.

Wait on that.

Remember you asked me about that.

I was so sure about it.

He was right.

No, I said, I threw the son of a bitch.

I mean, I'm sorry that I was standing out there and all blocking my path.

And I came off as president, though.

He said he felt things had cooled off.

I said, oh, well, they're just going to heat it up against the president.

I said, who are you?

He said, you sit inside that door.

Get out of here.

Can you imagine that?

Standing out in front of all the people.

They really have to put the paper in their dad's office.

What the hell was that, though?

I mean, that's, that's, what do you have to do?

Well, we have to do something like that.

I think that it's not a terrible, rocket, you know, said, you don't need any memorandum, just do it.

But those papers are mine.

They don't belong in the hall of honor.

But who would have the temerity to do it?

As I understand it, a lot of John wanted this done too.

And the reason for it

I was so distraught, I threw the son of a bitch.

Because it broke on the wire.

Without it, I mean, I'm sorry that I was.

And then the press started.

And we felt that the best way to handle it was to basically be very free.

And I don't think Bob and John wanted it for a preceding purpose.

He was standing out there in the hall blocking my view.

And they wanted it.

The reason is what happened.

Because I can't walk in there.

I mean, a guy standing out in front of the office, he could have sat in the office.

was to make absolutely sure that they're not in front of Baldwin's office.

They will opt out a week from now or a month from now because they are involved in a transitional period.

That charge would not be made against Richardson.

It is a procedure.

Or against Bob and John.

It would be unprovable that the process would go again.

What the hell was that, though?

I mean, that's...

They have a transition, right?

That's, that's the problem.

Cosmetics do make a lot of difference, so.

And by God, we've got the, what do you mean?

Secretaries and everything else right now.

Instead of the territory, it looks like you've got these guys under house arrest.

Yeah.

I'm doing reading the pocket, you know, said, you don't need any memorandum.

Just do it.

But those papers are good.

They have now moved to, uh,

They have now moved the files to a central location.

And it's going to be all worked out in favor.

So that is .

But who would have the temerity?

I said, you can get inside here.

You can do it.

Do what?

I don't know who ordered the man out.

He was sitting there.

That's where he belonged.

I was so curious.

I was there.

But as I understand it, Miles Johnson would be mad.

Wouldn't you be mad?

Yes.

One of his sons did.

And the reason for it, if I got the story, I would.

I don't think I scared Elliot.

There was a broken wire without an announcement, and then the press started coming in, and we felt that the best way to handle it was to, they say, be very free about it, and Bob and John wanted it for a preceding purpose.

But the reason they wanted it, the reason, and what I mentioned to you, Richard, is in the Ruggles House and Garment I just talked about, in last night's discussion with Bob and John,

The reason they wanted it so that there could be no question later in Bob and John's investigation, is the way I understand it.

That they'd write over the files?

That they'd write over the files, and they wanted to go overboard.

I mean, the guy standing out in front of the office, he could have sat in the office, was to make absolutely sure that a week from now or a month from now, because they are involved in a transitional period, that a charge would not be made against Richardson.

it is procedure or against bob and john we don't approve the process of their transition cosmetics do make a lot different so and by god we've got little secretaries and everything else running out here it looks like you've got these guys

Stay inside.

Nobody's going to finish with that now, apparently, because they have now moved the files to a central location.

And it's going to be all worked on there.

So that doesn't matter.

At four, the IHS publicist shocked me .

I said, you get inside here.

Get inside.

Sit in there.

That's where you belong.

I was so curious.

I saw the check out.

I was pretty mad.

What would you be then?

Yes, indeed, I would.

Mark, you are closer.

That's a pretty firm.

Well, no, sir.

That's a pretty firm.

Well, no, sir.

You just look like you were about to take any nonsense from anywhere.

Well, you didn't have to do that on the crime assumption.

Yes, yes, of course you did.

It's not like you were about to take any nonsense from anywhere.

Well, you didn't have to do that on the crime assumption.

Yes, yes, of course you did.

It's not like you were about to take any nonsense from anywhere.

The second one, I'm just saying, dude.

It's a bad story, though, to be uneven in the brief.

Well, it's a bad story, though, to be uneven in the brief.

It's a bad story, though, to be uneven in the brief.

Well, it's a bad story, though, to be uneven in the brief.

The environment?

I don't know.

It was, it moved on UPI, and then people came in and started coming to me, and I tried to find out how to act.

I thought, you know, in front of the presidents, watching the presidents, oh, God, it just makes you see.

Well, thanks a million.

It was historic anyway, you see, because as I mentioned, it had the carbon in the sea.

What the true picture was, and it wouldn't be as disparaging for Bob and John as a leak story would suggest that the IPN were converting on the planet.

I don't know.

It was, it moved on UPI, and then the people came in and started coming to me, and I tried to find out.

Well, whoever did it will never, it was, it was an act that I had, and I thought, you know, I had to talk to Carmen to see what the true issue was, and it wouldn't be as disparaging for Bob and John as a leak story would suggest FBI men were converting on the planet.

Whoever is in that room will never forget what I said.

You don't do that sort of thing.

We don't embarrass our own people.

They should have been inside, as you said.

It is important that, apparently, that it is clear that the papers we normally have, from everyone's standpoint, Bob, John, and from the standpoint of the investigation, I think they stand in our way.

Well, it's just overrated, I think.

I don't know if you've seen it.

I figure what you might do is this, you know, you might even get out and try to divide the difference, but as a matter of fact, the Vice President is President.

There you go.

It's important to our meetings.

Thank you, Mark.

In other words,

So that they know at least we're chatting.

Mm-hmm.

From the standpoint of John, from the standpoint of...

Otherwise, I don't think, for Christ's sakes, the Vice President General and everybody's abandoning shit.

Now it's going to hurt you, don't you know?

You're kidding, Mr. President.

I think they've overreacted.

I know.

I told you what you might.

He's a fighter.

Another thing I told him, Ron, I want you to watch it with him.

I don't want him in competition with the government of Christ.

Don't have to be resistant to this.

You might need press office, understand?

Get out tonight.

As a matter of fact, I've even had some good comment about the recent press speeches I made.

I'm going to talk to the Maryland Press Association tomorrow night about that.

Don't go too far.

But my point is, don't go to the Whitewater meeting section.

We're going to have a new relationship with the press.

So that they know, at least we're chatting.

We've got a few press guys that we ought to talk to.

You're kidding me.

He's a fighter.

Another thing I told you, Ron, I want you to watch it with him.

I don't want any confrontation with the government and press.

Don't have to take the press off, you understand?

Well, I know, I know.

As a matter of fact, I've even had some good comment about the recent press speeches I made.

I'm going to talk to the Maryland Press Association tomorrow night about that.

Don't go too far.

But my point is, don't go to the point, Ron, where it looks like the Vice President is doing in order to suck up to him.

The point is, I just want you to, let's say, we're going to have a new relationship with the press.

Now then, you've got a few press guys that you ought to talk to.

Let Ron be your sort of press secretary, too, if you don't mind.

Well, Mark, I told Ron that when I put Mark in there, that that would work.

Good.

I think the president ought to see this.

But this statement positions me.

I think the president ought to stay away from it because it says I'm not going to talk about it anymore.

That's right.

That's what I mean.

I don't.

I know what the thing is.

Ron, don't want to be misinterpreted.

I'm not concerned about that.

What I'm talking about is I want you to stay away from the subject because any statement...

But this statement positions me to stay away from it because it says I'm not going to talk about it anymore.

That's right.

Okay, Ron.

Okay, sir.

You got any easy problems there, Ron?

I don't feel good about today.

People are, you know, moving around more confident.

It's because you have the initiative.

The press tone is, you know, a hell of a lot better.

A lot better.

I mean, that's great.

People are, you know, moving around more confident.

There ain't anything that certainly puts us into a position to move to other things.

To other things.

Don't you think so?

Yes, sir.

I said, Bob and John are still to be using their office.

Because you have the initiative.

The press called this a hell of a lot better.

A lot better.

So they said they're going to make their transitions.

You told them that.

Well, I didn't get a pen by sight.

I didn't know I was wrong.

I don't know what to do.

I mean, that doesn't mean anything, but it certainly puts us into a position to move to other things.

Two other things.

I'm sorry, but I have a few other stories.

People are a bunch of things.

Bob and John are still living in the separation.

They're both being harsh.

It's this accent coming in.

It's not harsh.

Better than using their own pockets to make their transitions.

Isn't it?

You told him that.

Well, I didn't think it was.

I didn't think it was.

I just feel a very sense of it.

I do.

Yes.

Well, people understand the separation.

It's actually coming out.

It's not harsh.

Better than what his dean did.

He did it three times involuntarily.

That's the difference.

But I do my thing.

I just feel a better sense of it.

I do.

Yes.

You know, he's under fire or something.

No, that's all.

He handled that very well.

I think George is doing a hell of a job.

okay tomorrow i would now on the vice president tomorrow make a big thing out of that he just attends and announced that the vice president sat in ready he always sits at the nsc but i would make a big thing out of that he just attends in the leaders meetings but i would and announce that the vice president tomorrow that he will be vice chairman sat in ready

That would be a very good move.

And also, he sits in the NSC.

He sits in the leaders' meetings.

But I would announce tomorrow that he will be the vice chairman of the

And also we can help take a few calls.

We can call some of these guys.

Take a few calls.

We can call some of these guys.

In terms of the announcement, we can just say you can be a vice-chairman of the domestic council and not define the area of responsibility.

Let that drift out later.

That's better.

Yeah.

The best thing for you to do is to call me.

Yeah.

The best thing for you to do is to be by transaction, and then you get on the mark at the governor's in July.

That's a good idea, and it'll surface as I go.

Sure, but it'll also be by transaction, and then you get on the mark at the governor's in July.

That's a good idea, and it'll surface as I go.

Sure, but also, if you know Jim, Vice Chairman, it seems like you are empty of water.

That's it.

Very good.

Otherwise, it looks like you just went back to your old job.

That's it.

If you know Jim, Vice Chairman, it seems like you are empty of water.

That's it.

Goodbye, Ron.

That's it.

Very good.

Otherwise, it looks like you just went back to your...

I mean, you know where you will be concentrating.

Oh, that's it.

I think that would be much better.

I'll be concentrating.

That's it.

Goodbye, Ron.

I'll be concentrating on other areas too, but that'll be one of the ones that I want to get into.

I think that's principally immediately to contact our people, make sure that they're informed.

Much better to, I'll be concentrating on other areas too, but that'll be one of the ones that I want to get into.

I met with some of our parties principally immediately to contact our people, make sure they're informed.

I met with some of our party people in Arkansas, and they weren't at all excited about this.

This was about two weeks ago when I went down to Jersey, and then I met the Pennsylvania people the other day.

There's a very liberal party contingent up there, Cliff Jones and Sally Stauffer and Tom McCabe.

We've carried them, but that's—

They're part of the eastern viewpoint and much more affected by— There really is a difference there.

Washington actions.

The legal justification, when the Cambodian government wants it, when the North Vietnamese are in there aggressively against the agreement.

I never will forget that high-flying harbor when I guess that was the most unpredictable of all.

Well, anyway, get to work, and now, as I say, keep your table in that capitalism stand.

All right, and please, and I'll understand everything.

I know I'm a person, that hurts.

The moment you ever say anything, though, anything, then why don't you seek political ambition that's not as fiery as it is inside of you?

As a matter of fact, though,

That's why you're here.

And you've got to, and you know, you must not, you must, you just, just do your job.

Do your job.

I have to walk out of here.

You're going to read, okay?

Welcome here.

People in Arkansas.

And they weren't all excited.

This is about

two weeks ago when I went down to Jersey.

And then I met the Pennsylvania people the other day.

There's a very liberal party contingent up there, Cliff Jones and Sally Stauffer and Tom McCabe, but they're not

They're part of the Eastern viewpoint and much more affected by— There really is a difference.

Washington actually.

The legal justification, when the Cambodian government wants it, when the North Vietnamese are in there aggressively against the agreement,

Maybe we'll forget that high-flying harbor when I guess that was the most unpredictable of all.

Well, anyway, get to work.

Now, as I say, keep your table and have a couple of these things.

All right, and please... And I'll understand everything.

I know I'm a person.

That hurts.

The moment you ever say anything, though, anything, then go ahead and seek political ambition.

It's not as fiery as it is exactly helpful.

And as a matter of fact, though...

that's why you're here and you've got to and you know you must not you must you just just do your job