Conversation 910-003

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I'm sorry to keep you waiting.

It's okay.

I'll pass them.

Everybody has a little longer than they were supposed to.

Well, all right.

Ask me when you got them.

I noticed that you get, you know, you get in harm and so forth and so on.

Sometime that you would sit down and, and, uh, I hope you've got my invitation to use Camp David.

Yes, thank you very much.

We will use it.

I don't know if we're,

That's very nice of you.

There's no problem.

Now you understand.

God damn it there.

My golly, there's no god damn problem.

That's why I raised so much hell in that cabin yesterday.

But I think that was a current employer, so I don't know.

So anyway, just a little shock.

Anyway, forget it.

My point is that it's probably good public relations.

That's what they were thinking.

That is to show that we were not doing anything.

But I said, what the hell?

But actually, it helps me, and it helps you, because it gets my files clearly established as being yours, not mine, and clearly under a secure thing, which is very much to both of our interests.

And the only thing that worries me about it, and I deeply worry about it, is that that's the first step.

of self-righteousness is going to decide that the FBI or justice or himself or somebody should start going through those files to be sure there isn't any evidence in there.

That's right.

And that's something you're the only one that can stop.

But I don't need to tell you what's in the files.

Oh, my goodness.

Well, anyway, they're my files.

They're your files.

There's no question about that.

And they've got to be understood to be your files.

And you can't let some little guy decide that he'd like to go through it.

Because in those files, if I can't get them out, are all my notes, all my, you know, log from my notes, all my tapes that I've dictated at night from the notes.

Of course, my tapes to you.

A lot of things you've asked me about.

Right.

And, you know, how to help.

No, don't worry.

All the stuff on, you know, the record with Henry and Bill.

That's right.

I mean, it's all there.

And it's all there for you.

And I think it's good for you to have it.

Why don't you just take the line?

Those files belong to me.

Absolutely.

And when they speak to anything, you can say you can only have things that have to do with the... You can't go into anything.

They're your files.

No, no.

I don't have any documents.

I'm disappointed.

All I have is my notes.

The other thing is I wish you would give some thought to the organization thing.

I know you have, you know, I mean, I have one.

I think it's a suggestion that I'm pushing, pushing very hard coming in.

It's the fact that I like him.

He's a good man to have around.

That, in my view, would be, well, as a congressional relations guy, that would be fine.

But as, if you're going to bring him in to run anything, I think he has proven his total weakness and total lack of loyalty to you in the crunch, I think.

And the way he played this game, he played for the Republican Party and the L.A. President.

And I thought everybody knew.

Well, I thought, but not quite.

No.

No, I'll tell you.

The thing is, and he may have raised it with you, but Bob Fitch had an idea, and I wish to hell I had thought of it, and I told him that.

that I've stood over for two days now to try and figure out what's wrong with it, and I can't find anything wrong with it, and about 500,000 things right with it.

And that is that you move, at least on a temporary basis, and it could be done temporarily, but you move out hanging here in my place.

How would you do it?

God, only you would do it.

Well, on a temporary basis, he doesn't have any choice.

You could simply tell him, direct him,

you're this commander in chief, direct him that he is temporarily relieved of his duty as vice chief of staff and is chief of staff of the White House.

Now, it's not hard for generals over here running his staff.

He had a good pastor running around as his staff secretary.

Was Persons still on active duty?

Persons wasn't, but this guy can be on a temporary basis.

You're in a crisis period now.

And I'm deeply concerned that you've got the problem now for

Maybe it's only a week or two.

Maybe it's for months.

But maybe for a few months.

But you've got a problem where you've got it.

And George Shultz is just banging to get into you.

But he's got all kinds of ideas.

He wants to tell you how to appoint a special prosecutor.

He's going to tell you that you should take the initiative to make presidential assistance subject to Senate confirmation.

There's all this shit where all these people are coming up with ideas.

And they all want to give them to you.

As John told you, the vice president can't

but who's going to control that?

They want to get to you.

You've got to have somebody here, and the closest you've got, the one bet I think you've got here that you, that will not make, and that it will be a pillar of strength for you is Roy Ash.

You'll do what you tell the others, and he will not exceed it.

Well, if I can't get it, I don't know.

I think I'll do it with Ash.

Well, that would be your next best bet, but you'd have to clearly, it'd be hard to do, and Al...

has another advantage, which is he can deal with that problem, which is, that's the other thing that worries me in pulling out, is that that problem is going to be very tough to deal with.

I'm just saying stuff you don't know so well.

It's ridiculous how it's said.

But the more I think Al knows this place, he has your confidence, you're able to sit and talk to him about it.

You need somebody here that you can talk some of this stuff through with, and that worries me.

Because you shouldn't be talking to him.

You've got all these weak clowns who want to sell out to the press, sell out to the liberal establishment, sell out to everything that's around.

That's why I don't talk to anybody.

You know what I mean?

I know.

But Al knows how this place works.

He knows how to keep up.

He's tough.

He's tough as hell.

But he doesn't look tough, which is an advantage over me.

He doesn't act belligerently tough.

You'd be a good signal that way.

And if I did it, I'd do it temporarily.

I'd do it like today, tomorrow.

And I'd just say, come over here and for the time being sit in Alderman's office and take over Alderman's job and you're Chief of Staff of the White House, Pro-10.

And I don't know how it would work out.

The Army can sure as hell get along without it for a month or two.

Then you've got a guy that can cope with anything.

You've got a guy that can cope with the Schultzes of the world and people like that, because he's as smart as they are and knows what their maneuvering is up to.

Why are the Schultzes not trying to maneuver?

They all know how to maneuver.

Ash will.

Ash will play it down the middle.

And Ash was in, I've talked to most of them, but Ash is saying that he said if he can get anything set here one way or another,

Work it out so that the president doesn't get forced to decisions because everybody's pushing it.

We're gonna try to, and to the wrong things.

And he doesn't need to do anything to retain that support.

I talked to Bob John today about this really tragic situation, about that silly goddamn break in in California.

And you know, just another one bad break.

Yep.

And you know, why didn't we report it earlier where the Justice Department had the goddamn thing?

They had, you know, that's what I hear.

Well, that's what we were, that's what I have heard.

I didn't have the stuff.

We didn't know anything.

We didn't know anything about it.

I think that's one of the main things they told us in that conversation.

Mark.

You know what I mean about that?

It's a haunted thing.

But anyway, John and everyone made an interesting point that Dean had told Crowe and Peterson and in a way, but they decided it wasn't.

You know, nothing to use.

It didn't relate to the trouble.

So there was no point in your telling anybody.

I mean, the Justice Department had it.

Well, that was the point.

So what are you supposed to do?

And the people were fired.

I wasn't invited to the farm.

Yeah, I bet it's... God damn, each one of them is just, you know, one more messy thing.

I know.

Well, let me say that...

I appreciate your strength and the way you're always so upbeat.

We really miss you around here.

I don't have anybody on the circus.

I need somebody to kind of lean on.

That's why we should get it all over.

I think you can do that.

Is there any way you privately can talk him about the circus?

Would you mind?

Say, listen, I just desperately need somebody for the good of the country for temporary additional duty for the next 30 days.

And I will do that, and I'm going to talk culturally with him about this country.

Of course, all of his dreams and desires are to go someplace else, and they will be smashed with this.

But he isn't even in the army.

He could still live there, you know, because...

Oh, sure.

I assigned one trip to a cannibal in other places.

This will just be a temporary assignment for now.

That may be all you need.

You may find another way to put this together.

Let him work on that.

What do you think about him?

He's a good organization, man.

He's a good structural man.

What do you think about him?

Oh, sure.

But you've got to buy time.

You can't sell him.

I've got people say to replace him in the right way.

Well, there's some appeal to that, except that Christy, if you've got a clean job, you'd better hang on to it.

We don't have very many people who try to know the ropes around here.

Because they don't think, too, that he's a good worker.

Period.

And he's a stand-up guy.

You know, you've got to have the calm, isn't it?

Something to take guts to move your day.

Yeah, but it's that old truth.

Do you think it is?

Oh, yes.

It's the ideal time for it.

But you go over to the grand jury tomorrow, huh?

Yeah.

I won't quote you on that.

No problem.

One thing there, we've got, I've got a, I don't know, maybe John raised it with you, but we have the question of executive privilege for the grand jury.

Right.

And Garment, our lawyers that work with Garment, Garment just doesn't know what to do, they say.

And the question is, if they say, if they ask for information on communications, or if they ask us

from the president to or to the president.

Do you want to waive executive privilege if you want to claim it?

Our position is if you waive executive privilege, then all the files go and everything else.

We just want to claim it.

And if I have to testify to what I've said to you or what you've said to me, I would not waive it.

I think we're just down to two.

I would waive it.

You would say you will testify in any of your own knowledge,

Only communications to and from the president, sir.

Well, you're going to have to instruct Merriman as to that, because he has to appear with us and make the claim for privilege, Merriman.

I can't claim it, you have to.

When does the government have to be instructed?

Before, well, we don't go, we, we, it doesn't matter at the informal hearing.

It's when we go before the mayor and jurors.

We'll take the position informally.

We don't want him coming with us, that I understand.

And with me with Dash, I guess, on Friday morning, he's got to be there because we get into the same question with the Senate committee.

That's correct.

Well, God, I don't think anybody in a great service can quite... We won't have much trouble with the Senate committee.

Our guys don't.

But they do think we'll have trouble.

We might have trouble with the grand jury.

They may feel that the privilege doesn't extend to a criminal proceeding.

I could say they were more criminal than I am.

No, but see, they don't reach to your criminal acts.

I know.

If there's any criminal act on the president, that's got to be dealt with by impeachment, not by the judicial process.

So they don't have, I guess we're on sound ground, but they don't, the problem is they don't have any confidence in Lynn's conviction that he's on sound grounds.

And so he's got to be instructed

You mean he doesn't want you to prove that he claimed the privilege?

Well, they have a thing that he just doesn't know what to do.

Have a look at our end.

We'll be waiting.

All matters except for communications to, what would you say, to and from the President.

How's that sound to you?

Or on behalf of.

No, that goes further.

Well, that is on behalf of.

And on behalf of the President.

Or communications given or received on behalf of the President.

That's established a conduit.

Might as well take a stab at that.

Given or received.

Given or received on behalf of the President.

In other words, that also means given or received on behalf of the President.

Yeah.

And get a piece of paper and iron the garment that way rather than to get him in and have him gas around about it.

And then you could, then you'd have something.

But that is such a situation that Executive Rivers is waiving all of them on all of their matters.

Isn't it better to have a piece of paper?

Yeah.

Yeah, because you've got to, you've got to think and that's the way to do it.

We can talk that all day.

Yeah.

Oh, oh, oh.

What did we say on the national security matters?

Yeah.

Well, that was except national security.

Except matters involving national security.

Or those involving direct communication to the out-of-the-present or communication given or received on the out-of-the-person.

That's right.

Hypothetic to national security.

It gets into this whole...

That's all right.

Let me, they may have opinions on how this ought to be.

Boy, I will get a, you get us on a piece of paper prepared for me and have it on my desk.

Okay.

Well, you know, maybe I made the wrong manatee.

I guess our thoughts are historic Monday night things.

You can go ahead and say what you want to say.

I really thought of everything.

All this crap that's going on, this awful crap that we've done all over the country, everything.

You know, you like that?

Both the animals for the country, that's what we've been trying to do.

But I just think, god damn, why the hell can't I resign, you know?

God damn.

I'm sure, Bob, I don't know, it would be nice for you to do it, but you can't.

You think I should stick it up?

You have to.

You got to.

It's too bad in a lot of ways.

I can sure see why you wouldn't want to chuck it.

Well, we'll survive it.

We'll survive it.

You'll come out better in the long haul for it.

We all will.

We'll survive it.

How do your lawyers feel out there?

You're going to have a tough time.

Yeah.

We're going to have a tough time because we're under a verisim.

You know, times start today.

It's unbelievable.

Is that D?

That's D, I suppose.

D-N-S-A-N-K-A.

Was that what he was?

Everything's leaking.

It's all in the paper.

They say there were two of them around the whole thing.

Yeah.

Which is pure bullshit.

Absolutely.

And fortunately in that, which is good, they've got enough specifics that are totally and provably false that

It helps.

I mean, all of their- Like what?

Well, that this was worked out at meetings, secret meetings at the committee of the elect headquarters.

I was never there.

I said, hey, you went over there.

They could never put me in that committee building.

I've gone through all the communications with Dean and Mitchell and so on, and they were damned huge during that period.

So if I was engineering something, I was going to be a fundamental fellow of the- Strong man.

I think, do you want nothing?

We, uh...

I think we got, uh... Half of the president.

I don't know if that also...

I don't know if we have the president.

They can work on it together.

And get a piece of paper and iron it that way rather than get him in and gas around about it.

And then you can, then you have something.

You have something.

That's a situation that Executive Rivers is waiting on all of them.

on all of their matters.

Isn't it better on all of their matters?

Isn't it better to have a piece of paper?

Have a piece of paper.

You've got to, you've got to, you've got to, you've got to, you've got to, you've got to, you've got to, you've got to, you've got to, you've got to,

for those involved in direct communication

given or received on the 6th of the afternoon.

That's right.

What makes that matter, I think, to those involved in national security or those involved in national security ?

That's all right.

Okay.

I really thought of it.

All this crap.

No.

Maybe I made it.

awful crap from the devil.

We're on a manatee.

I just thought about this.

It's horrible for the country, everything, everything like that, but the story of Monday night things, you know, you can go ahead and say at least five times.

I really thought that everything, all this crap that's going on, this awful crap from the devil for the country, everything, everything like that, but

Holding on those spurs for the country.

That's what we've been trying to do.

I'm sure, I'm sure, Bob, I don't know, it would be nice, Bob, I don't know, it would be nice for you to do it.

You can't.

For you to do it, you have to check it out.

You have to.

Do you think I should check it out?

You have to.

That's what it was all about.

You've got to.

It's too bad.

That's what it was all about.

You've got to.

It's too bad.

I can sure see why you wouldn't want to check it.

Well, sir, I can see why you wouldn't want to.

I want to check it.

Well, we'll survive it.

We'll come out better in the long haul for it, Mitch.

We all will.

We'll survive it.

We'll come out better in the long haul for it, Mitch.

We all will.

We'll survive it.

On the scotch.

That's how Dee is.

And fortunately in that, which is good, they've got enough specifics that it helps.

I was never there.

I said, hey, I know there's some specifics that are protracted.

I mean, they could never put me in the lead and prove it with folks that it helps.

I mean, all of their likewise.

Well, this is working for many of them.

I've gone through all the other meetings and vacations with Dean and Mitchell and so on, and they were damn deep during that period.

So if I was in secret meetings at the committee or the elect headquarters, I was never there.

It's interesting.

I was going in five minutes.

It's okay.

You went over there.

Sorry.

I got the wrong man.

They could never put me in the committee, though.

All right.

I think, uh, I've gone through all the communications with Dean.

Do you want nothing?

I think, uh, do you want nothing?

They all know, and I just wanted a car, a little car.

I don't know how big or anything was.

I think we got her.