Nixon, Bruce & White House photographer on U.S.-China relations

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I'm on your way over here.

It isn't made in America.

It started in the future.

It hasn't.

It hasn't started in the future, really.

uh probably not a great deal will happen for a while the most important thing about this is the symbolism symbolism sometimes is not important but now it's enormously important and the fact that you were there let me tell you one thing that i particularly

I know the social world is a total mess, but to the extent that you can, if you could get around, if your colleagues get around, and give us an evaluation of the people on the way up, and who was coming down, I think I'd understand.

I will soon be leaving.

John Lyons in his 70s, but he said, there's a fear that you're being direct.

You're going to read like a book.

except there's men in their 30s late 30s 40s i don't see much coming up and i think you know you you can do that look around see who the power is that's one thing to be very important for us to know isn't it well i think this is because if they have a sort of collegial

The Russians, that's what a few of their shop, you know, might come along is.

And, you know, the interesting thing that the Russians do is, I think the only question that decision gave them, so pretty soon, you know, in four or five years, they'll be changed there.

But there'll be a change in China.

And the world changes.

Well, there's that.

And, of course, the, just your, you know, your sense of

Tom, I'm really, really more interested in that than I am in the routine cables.

Well, today we did this without the other thing, signed an agreement, you know, to test how we grow figs.

Exactly.

We're trying to see what this gray, I mean, we've got to get along with this one-fourth of all people in the world, the ablest people in the world, my opinion, potentially.

We've got to get along with it.

are not, it's no problem for the next five years, but for the next 20 years, it's a critical problem for our age.

Yeah, that's it.

The other thing is, if you constantly, of course, whenever you're talking to me, you're very subtle, but, and you're not like the Russians who, of course, slaughter and flattery and all that sort of thing.

My wife appreciated that while we were there.

Second, that we look forward to some kind of change.

Third, we've been very much in line to see as we're coming here to the U.S. or something.

We have an identity here, and it can be worked out in a proper way.

Always have in the back of your mind, without fighting two of them.

In fact, the only thing that makes the Russian man go is the challenge game.

Always have it back in your mind that you're saying anything pro-Russian.

It's not an argument.

Always have it back in your mind the fact that the Russians are there.

Deadly enemies.

And they don't.

And that we will stand by them.

And that's a commitment that I have made.

I have made a commitment.

And how we do it, I don't know.

But that's what keeps them.

Because what is probably, in our time, maybe, that great coalition could occur.

And the relationship between armies, these days, will involve all nations in the world.

They're that big.

So we want to avoid that, too.

But my point is, Chinese must be reassured.

They have won.

I have a friend here.

They hate the Indians, as you know.

Well, they don't hate them so much as they have their 10th

And, of course, the Japanese, they have a fear and respect for them as well.

So when the Japanese sort of say the right thing in terms of we want to get along with Japan and the rest of Japan, it's very important that we have our, that we maintain our, in other words, the shield there, because otherwise Japan goes into business for itself, and that's not a direct issue.

But here, they don't want us to get out of here because they realize as long as the Russians have a tie-down in Europe, that that's, you see what I mean?

And so some of our well-intentioned congressmen go over there and reassure the whole of, we're going to get out of Asia.

We're going to get out of Japan.

We're trying to reduce our forces in Europe.

Well, that, in Chinese, scares them to death.

A lot of the restructuring and the conversations that you've had and how they came back to the necessity of preserving forces in Europe.

I mean, they're hopeless.

They're very proletarian.

It was interesting.

Right.

Well, I've got all those points in mind.

Those conversations that you had there, I've read them in the office, and I say that they were really eloquent.

Not only silent, but they're sort of fascinating to read.

Yeah.

You're one of the few that got to read them.

I forgot them, but I do think they're actually fascinating.

Yeah.

It was indeed, I think, probably the most significant history, diplomatic history of our time.

No question about it.

I haven't seen anything which could really ruin the time that he would never know how any nation could be turned.

I would have thought the preservation of good relations should have been done.

The ordinary system and whatnot in the beginning will probably hold us, especially if we go to college and get to know as many people as possible.

But let them think that we are strong and respected, that we are not going to be pushed around by the Russians or anybody else.

Maybe we have no answer there, you know, and they haven't either.

The great Irishman is today the United States of all nations, China's most important friend.

That's not true.

No, no, no.

And it's in the end.

I'll tell you a little bit about it.

That's pretty good.

My point is to put that in mind.

Would you like a little coffee here?

No, I don't have coffee.

I just had some coffee.

Oh, fine.

I'll have one.

Here you go.

But, um, it is a much fascinating development, I think, the courage and the skill to reverse the policy.

I'm so embedded almost in the American consciousness, nobody, the people complain about it.

I don't want to tell anybody, but, you know, you... Look, I've been talking to Art Wilson for 20 years.

You know, uh, we were, we were starting to, uh, well, I'm, uh,

And we just continued the policy of just silent confrontation and almost non-communication with the PRC.

And then we would read under the Bureau.

No, no, no.

We just had to break through.

Also, as I said, it was so important.

How does one explain what the Chinese did?

We want to preserve a relationship, a sustainable relationship with Russia.

The Chinese favorite said between the two.

The next is another meeting with Russia, and they're going to be on a bridge.

The important thing there is to remember that Russia and the United States are super-traumatic powers, that our interests do rub together in the Middle East and Europe in particular, and that their rubbing together is a danger that is almost unbelievably

uh, great, and that under these circumstances that we feel that what we have to do is to, uh, try to limit that name as much as we can through communication.

But on the other hand, we do not consider putting it quite bluntly as between the two.

We consider the Soviet, because of its power and of its long history,

of expansionism.

We consider it more of a danger that we have to deal with than we do China, which has a longer history of, frankly, defense.

Now, I think a little of that is, well, we're saying, in other words, I had also, I'd be very blunt about it, just to say that you've got a long, you've talked to the president, and it's known as our systems are different, both in the Chinese and

finding it back to national interest.

And the president considers, he's a man of the Pacific, he considers that China and America have a hell of a lot more in common than Russia and America.

And that is in God's truth.

And that therefore, that looking at the historical process, I want to work toward that direction.

And I think that's what we have to do, that the Chinese-American relationship can be the great lynching of peace in the world.

Well, I tell you, after you talk to the president, the challenges will be filled and rather complete.

Totally.

I've instructed Alex and the president to be in touch with you, but we'll probably have Kissinger over again.

I think.

Incidentally, I'll tell you one thing.

Normally, he says when he goes, why he...

I want you to feel that you are basically not the State Department's ambassador.

You are the president's.

And I want you to be an ambassador.

Parts of these games that we don't want to go over the bureaucracy.

It's no lack of confidence to build or any of that stuff.

That's not how it is.

So would you have this in mind, please?

I will.

I said I will.

Because the security and safety of my mind is non-existent.

It's not as safe as it gets.

I'm not sure.

You're a robot.

I know.

Well, as the guy said, and I'm not going to quit if you've got enough, that back channel can be used when we think it's time, right?

Well, I might use the back channel, and also when Henry gets over there to do the briefings, I think it's very important that you be with him.

Well, I would like that.

So that you can get the feel of the thing, too.

Yes, I think he would be of that attention.

Good.

He offered when they came to Paris in connection with that peace talks taking place.

I was very displeased to do it.

I think it would have been a great mistake.

No one would have been able to do it.

Oh, yes.

I knew it.

Yes, but in China, I think it's probably a different thing.

Well, it's time to get down, Christian.

No, I know, I know.

I'll see you, John.

All right, sir.

I only got one, uh, thing which, uh, did not, uh, actually anybody explain about, because it's a bit behind the times of what's going on.

This, uh, Cambodian thing, I wonder if, uh, this is possible or something.

I wish it were.

I, uh, we're building a satellite in China now.

Uh, yeah, they, uh...

What other ideas would you have?

I mean, there's not anything we could do.

I mean, Cambodia is a terrible, terrible place.

Well, that's what I was going to say.

They're supposed to be very nationalistic.

I suppose with the conversations they have with you and also the way you watch with Henry, they're going to back Schuster to the Hill.

That's the state department that's got to say that.

I would have thought the solution at any point would be to have a coalition government in which Schuster is represented.

Now, it's because of the developments that you get with the others.

So, the difference to us, the thing that bothers me is what in the world would happen to Cedricville.

Is that going to be opened up as a port of entry again?

Well, let me say this.

South Vietnam, I think.

out there, and they've got a heck of a big army and all the rest of them.

See, it opens up the...

I think there are other ways...

If they want to attack, they just come right over the DMZ.

They come right over the DMZ.

They're not there.

Why are they not there?

Yes.

and get us, my view is this, we'd like to keep, well, Cambodia also affects Thailand, but we'd like to keep Cambodia in some sort of a halfway, my view is this, we'd like to keep Cambodia, well, Cambodia also affects Thailand, but we'd like to keep Cambodia in some sort of a halfway, independent, neutral, independent, neutral, independent, neutral,

Well, I'm talking quite candidly with you.

I mean, it would be, you know, it would be wise, frankly, to be just a little way less open about it.

I mean, I don't mind.

I mean, what we don't want is for the North to at least take over.

But to be perfectly frank, it's...

Thank you.

The one we don't want is for the North Vietnamese to take it over.

Well, if this thing comes up, I think that's your point.

Once you've been able to reach a decision, yes, I would have thought it was some fault of the North Vietnamese.

I hate to take it over.

But the one we don't want is for the North Vietnamese to take it over.

The Cambodians out in the South don't want that.

The Cambodians don't want that.

The North Vietnamese to take it over.

It would be a great disaster.

A possibility on the other hand.

Restore the imperial dynasty by the government.

Restore the Imperial Dynasty by the Covenant.

Yes.

Sir, what kind of place was it?

We didn't live in here.

What kind of place was it?

They were building a house.

They were building a house in Jamesville.

uh... uh...

I think they can all be the other way around.

I think that's life.

I'm trying to .

You know, all of a sudden, you realize that you're in trouble, that they're going to have to provide us with what we need.

It was chiefly an inhumane place, which is how long I plan to stay here.

The vaccine, I guess, is another problem.

You know, all of a sudden, you realize that it's a good company.

You know, everybody in Fort Downing is in an inhumane place.

In fact, anybody here is in a clean house.

How long I plan to stay here is another problem.

Dude, all of a sudden you made me step over there like Fort Downey.

Exactly.

And my hair is in the clean-up line.

You made me step over there like Fort Downey.

Exactly.

And my hair is in the clean-up line.

I'll get you out of there.

All right, let's try to do this.

Yeah.

Yes, they are.

And genius.

And intelligent.

I said most of it the other way.

And intelligent.

I sat next to the yellow light, and then I let go, and then I tried to trust somebody else, and then I tried to trust somebody else, and then I tried to trust somebody else, and then I tried to trust somebody else, and then I tried to trust somebody else,

Well,

I should not be taking anybody else.

It's a great career.

It's hard to come back.

I hope you're there.

I'm glad you're doing this.

It's a great, great job.

I should not be taking anybody else.

It's hard to come back.

I'm glad you're doing this.

It's a great job.

I hope you're there when I come back.

That's why we'd like to get a new job this October.

Then next year I can go there.

Well, I can't.

That's why we'd like to get a new job this October.

Then next year I can go there.

No relationship.

I still got the leg problem, but it's not just routine.

You remember you had your leg problem, and then you're like, that's what you said.

They're back, I guess.

I still got the leg problem.

Thank you.

I don't know.

But don't worry about it.

We better get the word out of this man.

Thank you very much.

Nixon, Bruce & White House photographer on U.S.-China relations

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Nixon Library Finding Aid

Also recorded on May 3, 1973

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