Conversation 911-016

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the next four to five days.

You know, I've seen the reaction of that ASV last night.

Baker and

Mondale got a little heavy.

Jim Sonington from Missouri is a pretty class guy.

You know, he was light and so forth.

But the general attitude amongst most of the publishers and so forth toward, you know, some of the comments and so forth about what are we having directly with you, this is totally stunning, was the feeling of support for you.

You know, they reflected that in talking to me

because those are just our friends.

Well, not all of them are friends.

That's what I mean.

I mean, they're... Not all of them are friends.

I think there may be a sympathy reaction involved.

I don't know even about...

I think I had a little of a public opinion, but I...

I think there's bound to be.

I don't see it.

That thing's so overblown.

And it's this crappy thing about that goddamn psychiatrist's office.

It's so crazy.

What?

It's so goddamn crazy.

Those things will tend to be overblown and tend to mix into it all, but it's, you know, still going to continue for a period.

I think we're dealing with it just the right way.

My view after last night is that, without question, this thing could be defeated.

Really, from your standpoint, this could be won.

I think the main thing to do is exactly what you're doing, is to take it.

Yeah, to get the rest before you make the decisions.

And I'm up and ready to hang in for about three weeks.

Is that all right with you?

We talked about that before.

I can't agree with you permanently because of Green's career.

But I'll bring him in and give him any time to think about who the hell I could bring in permanently.

Well, you might want to bring him out permanently if you could.

I don't think, here again, though, I...

I think that before you make any decisions along this line, not really into the mad hay, but as to how you would proceed, I think you should just make them considered four days from now.

There's no urgency right now.

Some people run.

He said that Young was on his staff.

Well, that's true.

Young was on the Hennessy staff.

So he said, how do you know that?

I said, tell the truth.

That Young was on your staff originally.

And that however he was needed in the domestic council.

And so he was transferred to Mr. Berlichman.

However, under the system, they didn't have any budget for it there.

And he remained in the payroll.

Nothing wrong with that at all.

And Jan, I want you to take a very strong position on these national security things.

If there's any, listen, I don't know what the, I don't think that the, that I'm limited in anybody.

I think that story is a phony.

That's what Dean probably just guessed up.

That's as far, we don't know anything about it or any of that.

I don't think Curtis.

But the point of the matter is, the fact of the matter is that if they did,

It was because the attorney general was running down these goddamn leaks on national security, and we're going to continue to.

Now, if I see a story, if we leave, for example, our sole position paper to Chalmers Roberts, he's probably gone.

God damn it, we're going to find out how it got out of here.

Do you understand?

Sure.

And don't be apologetic.

No, I'm not.

I know you've always said, I guess you'd imagine, we don't bug, haven't bugged any of those men since you've been in here.

It's not true.

That's what I believe.

It's not true.

Get behind us.

Yeah.

You've said it to my knowledge, that's what you probably said.

Well, yeah, I'm not a guy.

I'm just a specific guy.

I'm just an accountant in the department, so.

Well, that's part of those things.

It just happens.

We probably bug others in order to get them in them, but that's the way it is.

Thank you.

On this, I would simply say I had no information on that.

Yeah.

It's exactly the same.

These aren't national security matters.

And you understand, Ronald, on national security, though, that we have type 3, type 2 doses.

Why didn't you use that?

Yeah, we did.

But we also had to use our White House capabilities.

We used every capability in the government to find out.

It's always been done that.

And what else?

We investigate every department.

Every department was ordered to carry out its own investigation.

That's true.

Defense was ordered to carry out an investigation.

State was ordered to carry out an investigation.

Everybody carried out an investigation.

Did you know that?

No, I would assume so.

Well, that's true.

There's no culpability on the newsman itself.

That's absolutely not.

It's on who provided it.

No, it had nothing to do with the newsman.

It had to do with what individual?

With Lakey Seager.

But it was individuals, for the purpose of individuals, who were, who were putting out classified information.

I think everyone understands that and has it.

And people appreciate it too, but I'm sorry about Krogh.

I told Krogh yesterday I thought he should resign.

Krogh.

Well, he's taking a leave.

He took a leave.

Did he?

Yeah.

That's not so bad, is it?

Would you be sure he handles it that way, and tell him to take a leave until this matters to him?

Yeah, that's what he's done.

Well, alright, fine, fine, that's what I think, and be very positive and say that everything he did was in the national security area.

You see, his only problem is that there was this silly guy in that burglary, and the question was whether or not, on a legal standpoint, he should have immediately reported the burglary, and had some of the other bastards arrested.

Well, he didn't, because...

The National Security Investigations, they burglarize all the time.

You're wrong.

You know that.

Of course they do.

I don't even think they've got any witnesses.

They go in.

They do everything.

It's the National Security.

But he should take, he should not.

Here's I. I'm going to do something.

I should just take a leave until this matter is cleared up.

I feel it very quietly.

Okay.

I have one other point I raise with you, not as an advocate, but just as an advocate.

So I'm not an advocate, but in this matter.

Rogers and Lynn and Richardson, Lynn Garnton Richardson met yesterday.

First of all, I'd like to say in terms of Lynn, he knows that

Well, let me make a point on Lynn at first.

Lynn is, I'm convinced, not leaking.

He may have, you know, his judgment may not be right in some areas.

For you to determine.

But Lynn is not out after Bob and John either.

For example, he's working out a thing very privately for Ehrlichman in terms of, you know, financial support and so forth.

So he's...

Lynn is moving in, I think, a very responsible way, so that's, of course, for you to judge.

But Rogers, Lynn, if you will, after talking to Rogers, they went over how to handle the executive privilege matter, which you're just raising here.

There's no question about that.

You did?

Well, Lynn's point is, after a discussion with Rogers last night, and also after meeting with John Wilson, I think, that

Wilson needs guidance from Lynn, is what Lynn points out to me, Bob and John's attorney, and after discussion with Rogers on this, and Richardson, as to how he should proceed and how they should proceed on the whole executive privilege matter.

And what Lynn said is that in order to do that, Rogers supports this, I made sure he did so that I could.

So I have to call those?

No, no, no.

What Lynn says is that he feels that he needs about five minutes

just to go over three questions in terms of what he does as White House counsel.

He makes a point, look, Ron, I'm the White House counsel.

I don't want to bother the president with major things, but for his protection, for the president's personal protection, I do have to at least spend a moment with him.

And then I called Rogers, and I said, now, is this necessary?

And Secretary Rogers said, Ron, I think it is, just so that

Lynn, in his representation of the White House and the President on the whole area of executive privilege and on down the line, that he has a straight, you know, straight direction.

So I bring that to you as a passage of information I think would be good for you to see.

But isn't he down there with them the day that the U.S. returns?

No, he's not.

It's this area that Wilson needs guidance, apparently, and Lynn needs guidance.

Lynn has been meeting with John Wilson to try and work this out.

I can't judge what that means.

confident in that area of executive privilege and legality.

But Lynn and the Secretary had apparently a long talk about this whole area last night, fully recognized the national security matter and how it should be handled and the fact that it should be handled.

But I think it would be worthwhile for you just to spend five minutes with Lynn for him to go over this so that he is proceeding

in accordance with your direction.

I think it would be good for you to at least hear his point of view, too, on this, in terms of how to handle executive privilege.

Why, does he want to throw everything out?

No, absolutely not.

He must do the best he can.

No, Mr. President, there is no stronger advocate on protecting the presidential papers than Len Garment.

code protection for presidential files.

And he also uses another word, he says, not only protection for presidential files, but no potential coaching for presidential files at all.

I'm gonna keep it to myself.

But Len's point is that he has examined the whole thing from the legal standpoint of how to protect your files

In this whole thing, he wants to.

Advocated.

Okay.

the world.

Our country this spring is passing through a stormy time of soul-searching and purification.

We are struggling with the courage and poison out of our democratic process.

I pledge to continue that struggle until justice is done and the day of the Constitution is indicated.

I still have that, that, that, that, where is the, where is the, how do we have to do that?

I mean, that's so stupid.

But that's, that's what we, you know what I mean?

You have made the talk.

move to the offensive from the standpoint of continuing the business and staff restructuring and so forth.

As we discussed before, it's how that is put in place that I think you should wait for four or five days to really make decisions on.

But now it comes to the time for us not to be groveling or groveling in the face of this about the president.

This is where the president now, I think at some point in press conference, wherever,

begins to say, well, no, no, no, I'm not advocating that now.

I'm talking about at some future point.

I don't know when it is.

In the future.

And I'm not pushing for one now.

Is where we stop apologizing and begin to say, particularly on this National Security Council type thing, this is what happened.

This is why it happened.

And then recognize, as you already have, not the defensive way, as you didn't do it the defensive way.

If mistakes were made, they're being paid for.

They're being cared for.

They're handled over there.

In other words, that basic, basic defense.

You know, for example, they did the best of what they would have done earlier.

I've seen the little son of a bitch for two years.

We won't be able to let him near.

So if that ever comes up, look, everybody's got some jackass around, a gentleman.

He sits around over in Nassau.

But there it is.

There's another story.

You see, and there's another story.

There are going to be more stories on the finances.

We call that the best show.

Or O'Connor.

See, my view, Mr. President, is all about it.

We've fucked this through very clearly in Florida in the campaign, but all that's going to continue.

Our offense, however, does not relate to an offense to say, well, this happened, but here's why, and, you know, let's prove that it shouldn't have happened and so forth.

If we go down that road, we're going to get all tangled up and consumed and absorbed the next three and a half years on that.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't take the offense, but we should not, in my view at least, address each one of the

Great detail.

What we should say is those things are being worked out.

We're in the state saying they're going to be handled and move on to the state.

From your standpoint, this is not an administration that is corrupt.

No, sir.

It is in charge of corruption.

The type of movement later on here.

They're all investigating our plans.

of the 36 million dollars he got.

Well, but the way I see to deal with that from a presidential position at some point, and this is no time to dwell on this, would be for you to call on, you know, in the future, call on the full examination of all of the materials so that we can reform.

What's that?

So that we can reform.

Not we, but the system can reform.

But the only way to do that is not only

not to examine only a part of the part of the house a lot of these things we've talked about but I feel awful about it you heard as if you had an old father John well I pray for them they're honest man yes they are I'll play it too funny thing somebody killed him great Christ the moment he's dead

said all the staff thought that they should have resigned.

I didn't realize it all day.

Bob told me, you know, that he agreed with the decision afterwards.

Did he tell you that?

You told me.

That's what I'm going to say, that most of them were critical because they didn't do it themselves and forced the president.

I don't know.

I'm critical.

I guess if you, both of you definitely are.

He's never known.

I know what I would do if I would be me.

I don't know what I would do if I would have been them.

If I would have been me, I wouldn't read up.

I mentioned that to you.

Earlier.

Yes, sir.

It is very easy for someone to sit around as a prairie man.

However, you see, that's the sort of talk that their wives see.

These are very moral men.

Of course they don't drink.

They don't smoke.

They don't screw around.

They love their families.

They were really one of the Christian science type of people.

And then they just burned their tails to get involved in the things they were doing.

You know, you don't say that about Mitchell.

Mitchell is basically a destructurer.

A decent destructurer.

See, that's what Mitchell figured out.

Well, you see, it's easy for people on the staff to sit over there and say they would resign.

It's easy for me to sit here and say I would resign.

when you're not confronted with it based upon the set of circumstances that they are.

There's no question in my mind that it was the right thing to do.

There's another way we can handle this step without having a real problem that we might have by trying to move it off me.

It's a big, why did I just move A here?

Roy's a fine guy, but I'm sure he'd be the first to tell you that that would be very detrimental to him.

I don't think you should take an interim step.

I also don't think you should bring Al in for three weeks.

I think you should consider it.

You should not decide not considering bringing him in on a personal basis.

Oh, yes.

I don't think you can't do that.

No.

He could still live in his house over there, still carry his four-star.

Sure he could.

The fellow who followed Sherman Adams did.

full-time military man.

He wouldn't have to resign from the Army.

Quite true that he would be able to tell you more directly than I.

But I think in terms of moves, again, you should not, as you wrote in the Sixth Crisis, don't make decisions when you're tired.

I mean, I remember reading that very carefully.

I think this solution... You've got to have somebody to keep begging with their parents.

But I think that was a good move.

Great.

That got a very good place.

He's a smart man.

He's clever.

He's a smart man.

I've always respected Conley and I've always related to him.

There's certain people who you can have a

I've always liked it.

But in turn... Oh, I said yes.

I said the President...

I talked to him.

I'm pleased to have been a Republican Party man who's contributed so much to the administration.

A man of his abilities and capabilities.

And I played all the stories.

On the Watergate stuff, though, and so forth, I think you're in a position

There's a trial here coming up here.

There are Senate committee members and that sort of thing.

Gentlemen, this thing is, of course, there's going to be more comment from the White House on these things.

Period.

Let's just say that.

What do you think about Dean, though?

Do you still think he's lagging out more?

He started it from him.

You know, this story about, this Crow story, that started with Dean.

That's fine.

That's good.

Now, that was contained in John Early's testimony before the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

No, no, no, no, no, no.

But what touched it off was, you see, I'm sorry, the reason John was ever questioned was that Dean had said, you know what I mean, Dean was involved.

He told, in his preliminary examination,

were involved in some sort of surveillance or something in the Ellsberg KC.

That was, in fact, he told me that in March.

And that's one of the things, you know, he mentioned.

Of course, I didn't.

He investigated it, found that, you know, that discharge that Dean had made on hearsay.

Hearsay, you see what happened?

Dean said that Hunt and Libby, or Hunt and or Libby had told him that they had been engaged in such activities.

So it was hearsay.

And then, and so the questioner, right, then, so that investigation, then the Justice Department then conducts an investigation and claims to him that, for instance, we've got to get this out to the judge even though nothing

He came out of it, and I immediately said fine.

It was on the 15th of April.

You said absolutely.

That's right, the 15th of April.

The point is, Tom will say, why did they do it earlier?

The reason we did it earlier was that the charge as far as I was concerned had not been brought to my attention.

I investigated it.

You see my point?

Well, you weren't aware that there was burglary involved.

Or you were aware that there was burglary, but you were not aware that John knew about it.

That's what I mean.

But even after March.

We weren't aware of it at Camp David that John had given this testimony before the FBI on Friday, were we?

Well, I think both, I know Bob and Ron are very moral men.

I have a great deal for both of them.

Bob, in terms of talking to me, says, we made the right move, Ron.

He said, he really did.

Yes, he did.

He said, I want you to know, you had advised me to do this two, three weeks ago.

And he said, you know, during the period, he said, I was, of course, had to take my guidance and counsel from my lawyer.

He said, now that it's done, I just want you to know that I feel it was a right decision.

He did.

Now, Mr. President, I think, without going on this any longer, I do think that from this, let me just say, I trust Bob Haldeman and John Erickson.

four and a half to five years.

From your standpoint, from your personal interest, though, you, I believe, shouldn't be bogged down in burden with this Watergate thing.

But I do know that the stories are going to continue.

I'm not worried about...

We've talked about that.

That is not a problem.

They're not going to believe him.

Plus the fact that you began in March.

But this gets, I think, to the center of my point.

The only way these charges can become solidified, and the only way these charges can be known, is for them to be believed, is that in this process,

very delicate point we're involved in right now.

This is Rogers' argument and Garment's argument and Richardson's argument.

This period we're going through right now is so crucial from the standpoint of protecting you so that it does not appear that at this time you are taking steps to associate yourselves, as much as you love them and respect them, associate yourselves, yourself, sir, with two of the men who are, of course, in

arm of innocence, but through a combination of circumstances and the convergence of events, it could appear... Yeah, but that doesn't go so far, I would say.

It goes so far as to say that BIA should turn around.

That's why...

Agreed.

See, that's why...

It was a mistake.

Lynn knows it was a mistake.

He overreacted.

It was a process he was trying to put into place.

He blew it.

And he knows it.

He knows your feeling about it.

And he absolutely...

I think on the positive side of Lynn, he has been trying to be...

I can't judge that.

I think the process... Well, I think the process itself showed that the president was not going to play around, even with his two closest advisors.

But you weren't sitting in the hall.

I mean, there were other ways.

It happened, it leaked out this way and it didn't work out well.

I'm convinced it didn't leak from land.

But I think Glenn is trying to do his job.

I know he's loyal from what he said to me on a lot of these things in terms of just his attitude about protection of the files and the necessity to take steps to do that.

I know that you'll give the counter argument on that.

I can only give you my judgment.

I have never been an advocate for lead garment.

I don't share his views on a lot of things, but I'm not going to withhold this.

Okay, all right.

I would think that we ought to, I have moved it back to one o'clock, but I think we can get through by 1130.

All right.

Well, Tom Tom, the B, could be available from any time from 12 to 1.

Oh, no.

I have to do a radio.