Nixon, Garment & Bull on Watergate and Executive Privilege

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Yeah.

No, no, I was kind of worried outside, but you see, we can't put it past 1230 already.

It's only been a half hour.

I'm afraid some other people could get in.

I don't want to.

But sure, if I got to see one, could we do it?

I got to this radio tape, and I had to see the egg.

And I was just doing a bunch of things to bring it to you.

He said it's just five minutes.

He said when he was 15, he told me you only have five minutes.

No, no, that's not kind of hard.

He just said that you have about ten minutes because sometimes, speaking about George, he gets on about it.

He never tells me.

I saw a recipe and said it's

I don't see through, but hey, you can go back and see.

All right, where's Helms?

Helms hasn't arrived.

Senator, you got anything?

No, sir, I'm in.

He's late.

So you've got to see the senator.

All right, we'll talk to Len now, and I'll get Helms on that, or I'll get that directly to Len.

All right.

I'm going to start.

You're right

I overreacted, and I'm sorry.

I had another interview.

Holderman was just the strongest deal.

The next day when I saw him, a more admirable reaction to the whole thing.

He said, don't you worry about this.

It's not the right thing to protect the president and to be professional about it.

So I am sorry.

Don't even mention it.

It was changed, and that was that.

Elliot said he didn't know about it.

say so.

That we've got to recognize on those papers and so forth, they do not belong to Haldeman, Harper, or Deane.

They belong to you.

And I am not going to allow anybody, and that includes Elliot Richardson, or you, or anybody else, ever to look at those papers.

You understand?

They're mine.

They're your lock and key.

And incidentally, that also covers Henry's.

All those things

They're going to allow the letters to be put out there, in my opinion.

And I think I have an ability when I lost them.

You understand why that is so hard?

There's a slight inspection on my mind.

Good.

And you have them over there in terms like it's a subpoena or any kind of letter.

Oh, no.

I just want to be sure who you handle that with.

They'll say anything.

is the problem now is the question of the same

deal with the privilege.

It is a scalpel rather than one instrument.

The extent that it's used in a blunt way, it will lose its effectiveness, because then it creates impressions of power.

And that's especially logical.

They were designed for that collaboration, cover, and the likes of that.

Knowing that we have a whole variety of proceedings going at this point, the grand jury, the FBI interrogators, and the Matt Byrne proceeding, and the Senate, those fellows are rushing with all kinds of people.

to say, and without the ability to claim your name with my mind, I took counsel basically with Bill Rogers last night.

And because he is, he's a former tech general, he's very practical, he understands what the problems are.

And his very strong feeling was to figure out what's the priority of the tech conversation between the president and members of the state.

of concerns is the avoidance of any appearance of trying to come around.

And he said, well, let's deal with the reality of the problem.

First of all, the problem itself are in the best position to invoke the privilege in the first instance itself.

Why should you be sitting down there in the lobby with John Wilson?

And they have a question about it with Wilson.

If Wilson has a real problem about it, he can then call me down.

Yes, that's why I wrote the memo for you today.

Right, but rather than I being there, I mean, just involving the privilege all over the place, all that is a kind of measure of...

I see.

I got it.

I didn't know that.

I thought that I was intending to say to you that you, as the White House Counsel, will see the privileges.

Could I direct you?

Well, yes.

It's mandatory.

And as we know from the discretion and the timing, the breadth of the privileges described there is such as to believe, rather than the level that would not be privileged in their testimony.

So that, quite conceivably, Wilson might fall into a pattern of saying that

And I would just be in a position of saying, well, that's perfect, and that's perfect.

And that would not, that wouldn't be in their interest, even less so.

So what do you want them to do, write a letter?

Let me get to, quickly, another proposition.

That is the interrogations of Buck Crowe and Dave Young.

I held them up until I got some idea about what the subject matter was.

And you see that these fellows, Crowe is calm and smart, and Young is a little bit sterile.

uh we're sitting on a situation where burton himself is trying to protect his own political so he's saying i'm really delayed in connection with their responses from our president's deposition and i want to turn everyone's to the fbi especially the possible national government should not be sitting in a room with uh help with the other

of the FBI interrogations, but essentially would require my being there or available to them.

And I think, again, it's not a situation where anybody can suggest a procedure.

I'll tell you what Roger suggested, and I think very soundly so, and that was essentially this, basically, from somewhere, that's what it is, you know, to go through it, that the witnesses before the Irving,

in the informal discussions that are going on now with the committee, the staff, and the jury, and in the FBI interrogations, determine the person, knowing that they can't reveal conversations with you, and knowing that they can't turn over any presidential papers.

They don't have them.

They can't turn them over.

And then the area in which they would raise the privilege would be essentially national security concerns.

And if they have a question about it, they should then consult to – basically, they would be consulting their lawyer about – they understand that General Brown was here.

If they have any real questions, then I think – The problem is, I guess, which Bill asked a question about.

As I understand it, the president is the president's privilege and not theirs.

Is that right?

Well, that's not true.

In a sense, that's correct.

And in play, literally, we put them in a position where I'm sitting on their lap, and that's very bad.

And that's why Rogers, I think, had the right view of this, and that is it becomes the other bad part.

And you have to say, well, he really can't control what they're doing.

There's some other objections.

You have no letter, then?

No letter, then?

Well, I think it's appropriate for a White House staff officer, a bailout, to say what's next for them.

To say what?

To say after that purpose, I can't get into any discussion about it.

To say yes?

Yes, to say yes.

Is that a big idea?

How do they know what I consider privilege?

In other words, I consider privilege personal conversations.

I thought that was quite narrow.

Personal conversations, personal, you know, papers.

And they aren't.

Well, I haven't covered any of the papers up there, so they can't see.

We don't even get into that.

Personal conversations.

For the president.

That's right.

Not for each other.

You see, I can't mean to break your arm, so I couldn't... No, no, no, I know that.

Then how do they know what there is?

Well, then they come out there, they talk to their lawyer, and they have a real question about that.

They can't keep that away.

Well, whatever it is, you know, you can get my guy down here today, so...

and they get to get to a real problem, and there seems to be a real debate about it, call me then, and I'll resolve it.

I'll know the situation.

Secondly, with Young and Crowe, I think essentially the same thing happens at the time.

I can't concede that it doesn't get anything.

I've got to elaborate with them.

Well, they're going to get into them.

I said, did you break in?

Do you have to authorize a break-in?

I mean, this insane break-in to the psychiatrist's office.

And the answer, I don't know.

I have a slight

as far as that matters you need you and i'm going to be sure we had also in the uh

In 1961, 1969, at the time of those leaks of the SR and the Nissenberg, and also at the time of the Pentagon Papers, we had a broad-based, what we call, lead operation.

We ran most of it through the Bureau.

These two clowns were used also.

However, let me say,

Never produced a goddamn

The reason it came, if you talk to John, the reason it came to John, he tells me, is that what happened is that these clowns apparently wanted to go to the psychiatrist and then they didn't

Let's get nothing very clear about it so that you'll know where we stand on Dean.

And that's why the relation with you is very different.

The clients would say, you know, how often did you see Dean, you know, in the summer and so forth and so on.

I said it once.

I said, and it's true, from January the 1st, 1972 until February the 27th,

When we got him on the executive, when he was under attack, I saw him for five minutes when I signed my will.

Five minutes.

So he is right that he did report the involvement.

He is right on that.

But finally he says, what did he do to me?

He said, they know your life every day.

Well, I suppose that's the way things are thrown around.

But he didn't.

Now, as far as this whole matter is concerned, why the hell, if Dean goes down and tells Granger, didn't he tell me?

All that I know is that in the period, in the March 21 period, you know, when I, so now you're here, he came in here to his credit card university, and that's when he told me about Hunt and all that crap, you know, and they had been raising funds for them, and that's when I started my own investigation.

we were involved in some of the leak operations.

I knew they'd been in the White House staff.

And I said, some of that stuff is involved in that.

It may be involved in the elsewhere thing.

That's all, just like that.

Later, later, when Hunt was called before the grand jury, I had talked, this was in April, I had talked to Peterson and David.

I said, I just want to say one thing.

I said, you can...

questioning the grand jury about anything that has to do with Watergate.

But I said, you, the national security matters are not the problems of this grand jury.

He said, I totally agree.

We're staying on the national security matters, not knowing then what the hell it was.

Then Quigley came in finally on Sunday, as he said he was reported to you, and said, look, we've now, apparently, based apparently on what Dean or I

The way they found it is a curious thing, from what I know, from what I hear.

Apparently, there was a picture taken.

Did you hear it from somebody else?

Did you hear it then?

I heard generally, they came out with a picture.

The CIA, the CIA, his camera, you see, the crazy man borrowed a camera from the CIA when he was working here.

He returned it to the CIA.

There was a roll of film in it.

The roll of film had a picture of these two clowns standing in front of the contactless office.

So that led to the attention of the God-man, uh, people.

And there, there was...

But let me just say this.

I think you've got to, you've got to have confidence in me.

I have confidence, yeah.

Absolutely.

You've got to tell him, Christ, all that I know is that Dean said this.

In March.

Absolutely.

And I turned, and I, and I turned to Peterson, and I said, Peterson, what the hell is, I mean, on this?

I think probably it was a result of my team that we even got it out to Ellsworth.

You know, and I, that's a good move.

Right.

And, uh... You understand what he said?

I had to prove that a crime case came in.

He said, I think we've got to get this to the burden.

And I said, you get it out there as fast as you can before that case is...

So then you have, uh, Richardson and, uh, and, of course, Gilrod and...

It's not an adventure that showed up.

You know where it was?

It wasn't in the White House.

It was over in the Department of Justice there.

So they, why didn't they follow up on it?

I don't know.

You know why?

Because there was no evidence.

There wasn't that big of a plan.

Apparently, they had a dry hole, you know, and there was nothing to present in the case, and I guess they just...

We know the, we know the statement.

We know how to use the, uh, the, the, the privilege of precision so that it's effective.

I don't know what you know.

It's all broke.

I mean, I don't want to... Well, he didn't...

He didn't order this.

Whatever, well, he will testify to the truth.

But the point is, the point that they could say with him, I suppose, is that when you found out about it, why didn't you report it to the police?

Huh?

Is that a crime?

Well, I don't have records of that, but, uh, uh, it's indicated that he is, that he, uh, that he was, that he authorized it, uh, that he undertook, uh, uh, to, uh, to, uh, authorize the rape.

And I think a very strong case can be made that there was a very overriding national security issue that justified what we had to do.

Now, if he starts talking about any movement along with some little problem and says, oh, I don't think I can get into that, and I'm whipped into saying that he's privileged about it,

and it would certainly create some other problems here.

I think he can certainly handle that.

He has to by telling the story.

Similarly, Krogh and, you know, I don't think anybody can get very deeply into any of that matter because he's certainly involved in these serious and collateral other things.

I think we're past that problem.

The problem that will be created will be if we get to a business of this kind.

but that would hurt you.

I'm not concerned about myself.

I mean, I've got a professional job.

I've been in a professional job.

Okay.

I think that's a lot.

I must say that I came into the discussion with him with a more narrow and professional view about the privilege.

And he said to me, he said, you're going to get involved in a situation where the president is going to look at you and get you all the town and flash the privileges and do things that you can't control.

They don't argue every time

I'm not concerned, you know, the crow goes right away and I'm getting involved in it, you know what I mean?

That's good way to put it.

In other words,

I should be getting into trouble.

Now you ought to talk to your lawyer and say, well, I'm a little concerned that I might be, uh, incriminating myself by getting into that little bit of business.

because I'm a big fan.

I have a, just a beginning of a feeling that I might have to go up there.

Well, this is a question for the NPR, and Gary, and Gloria, and actually all the rest of the members, on the connection of the conversations with the president.

Mr. President should be here soon.

Mr. President should be here.

All the documents produced here will be seen by the president very soon.

Well, I think I would have anything.

involved in blanket objections or repeated objections, a conversation that Bob may have had with John, uh, Winkle, uh, would present some problems.

Um, very hard to control that, hard to know what's involved there.

Why don't we say, only in connection with conversations with and in behalf of

No, no, no.

As Steve just said, that would involve the public.

Yeah, right.

It wouldn't be perfect.

We had, uh, he's got the point there.

He's got to have, he's got to have something a little broader there.

The presidential papers are all documents.

The documents are not going to be the proper documents until now.

Uh, you mean about the, uh, staff discussions?

Anything among the staff and all board?

Uh, that would mean that Colson would be, uh, playing the president with privilege with respect to everyone in the world.

Uh, the, uh... That was Robert's feeling, that, uh, we should have this orbit, uh, with the president.

Uh, that was in the lead colt.

Uh, it's, uh... Yeah.

And then down the line, it's, uh, maybe on the rear front.

We can get rid of that.

The question is whether or not it would be useful.

I think it might be.

It'd have to be direct that he make a vote on it.

I hear him.

And I'll get a letter if he sort of does his thing.

Well, he will, yes.

Yeah.

Why not?

I know.

This is my idea.

I want to see if you would order me to take my opinion.

We may have to take more of your time.

Nixon, Garment & Bull on Watergate and Executive Privilege

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Nixon Library Finding Aid

Also recorded on May 3, 1973

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