Conversation 914-008

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Sir, he was in the DVDs, and I didn't want to put him off the DVDs, so... Sure.

Oh, that wouldn't have happened.

Yeah, okay.

When it's better, I'll hand you over to the O.B.

Okay, sir.

I'll drop over.

Thank you, sir.

Good.

All right.

Bye.

Good night.

Thank you.

Well, sit down, sit down.

That was very, very good.

Well, give him a little, a little of... Oh, there, there.

There, Ralph Lane.

That's what we did in there.

We were all going out and marching.

George Shultz was just delighted.

I was worried about him.

He was a little soggy the other day when I saw him.

He was tired.

Tired.

But he came out of this all right.

Right.

Now, what we've got going now is a very comprehensive game plan on taking this thing on.

We've got to start now building a backdrop, but not to shoot our big guns yet on Dean, but just to have a backdrop and wait a little bit before we shoot our big guns.

I think Carly would be a great guy if he can go out and just put in the context of going on the Proxima and throw it back at my guy.

We're now in the process of inhibiting

justice and truth and are involved in an orgy of very irresponsible press activity.

That kind of a thing that he can hint and do and be picked up would be very helpful.

I don't, I think Vice President's probably less good at doing that.

Well, we can't be able to get a company, you know, we'll take that on.

But you can talk to him privately about it.

those fires are starting to kindle now but I think we want to wait until we've seen those papers until we decide we've got to see what he's got and we mustn't get in a big tizzy about his papers I mean you know the immoral seems to me that we worry too much about what the hell is Dean going to say next what he's going to say is going to be all that and why

That's all we're dealing with now.

It's just going to be... We're talking about, of course, somebody may have read it or something, but I just can't believe it.

No, maybe Bob or John did write it or something.

So they did, but it's probably...

They certainly didn't say anything about covering up.

or anything like that, you know, I mean, it wouldn't be anything like that.

It would be anything about the president.

But the other thing, see, would be his own memorandums of conversations.

That's right.

If I got a memorandum of a conversation out, it's a, it is, the answer makes pretty good reading, but a memo of the conversation, it says I wrote it in the kind.

What the hell does that mean?

If a guy is, you know,

It's very something to, A, not only a mental, as well as words, it's very something to question.

Very much.

Well, it's as credible as he is.

Just common, that's the word used.

Oh, a couple of points I wanted to make.

One thing that's very important in terms of working on this executive privilege thing, and we do, is there anything, any time you'd be ready to meet today's general?

what we do with regard to the person.

That's it.

The dean made the deal with the Senate after that.

No, he has not.

After that, he's still waiting.

And as I understand it, they have not even delivered the notice to the attorney general, which they have to do.

Now, what I have here is Bazaar is on his way over right now.

He'll meet with Chappie.

I'm trying to move on this Italian fellow.

Really?

He's had quite a relationship with Dean.

But I think he turned on him very violently some months ago.

Find out what that's the case.

He may have something that's very good there.

That's right.

He'd work it.

No, no.

That's right.

And I've got to call him to end on that.

That's right.

Everybody agrees that he's first class.

He's a poor administrator, but he's a great mind and a great fighter.

A good legal head.

So that'll give us a first class team.

Yeah, yeah.

I've got to mention to you that this, I guess Bob called this my wish as well, poor guy, but he mentioned on the point on executive privilege, and I'm not sure he understood it.

He said that, I said, Bob, be sure that you, as you know, we're going to have to lighten that up to some level.

And you can't just say conversations in the present are illegal actions or disgusting purposes.

He said, yeah, I can.

But he said, there's one thing I must not, we must not give up.

And that is, my notes.

And he said, well, I'm dealing with some impression of government.

And I just want to be sure that you, Bob,

and his host to have an understanding.

No note is made of any, even in that meeting and there, that belongs to those people, that belongs to the President.

You know that.

That was Johnson's rule to explain realism.

I mean, their notes, those are not notes.

Bob Holden's notes prepared for the President, you know what I mean?

And his notes of his meetings with the President are not, cannot be subject to being

They are all in our files and in our vaults.

And I told Mr. Langston, I said, we are not turning over any notes, any documents, any presidential or Haldeman, Ehrlichman papers.

We don't want to say it.

But in a public sense, we don't want to say that.

We just aren't going with it.

The issue comes up specifically and they ask for this or that.

That's executive privilege.

I don't think we want to make a public statement.

We don't want to make a public statement.

In fact, we want a public statement to be, well, I'll be glad to testify about the meeting.

I'll testify about my recollection and so forth.

Any, all those and so forth that I hear.

I don't think that's...

Provided your position, our position is reasonable.

That's all we want to do is take that.

Take a reasonable position by the responsible.

We're giving them, we're giving them the man.

We're letting them question all the White House aides.

We have our freedom.

We're letting them testify for you.

And, you know, and without any privilege, matters of fact, yes.

matters, discussions with which they were privy, and what's the president's role.

I mean, you have to be involved in the legal activities.

Because there, there's an advantage for us to say that.

They will say that we're not.

You can get my point.

Now, that's what they're going to start on, the first order of business, how to handle the congressional or the Senate

immunity issue, yes, Senate immunity issue, and the Senate hearings.

To get the Senate hearings, not only the immunity issue, they've got to get the immunity issue, but then they've got to get the lawyers for Bob and or Mitchell, particularly Bob's lawyers and so forth.

Somebody's lawyers have got to get those Senate hearings delayed on the basis of this.

Another point that should be made,

to take the lead and say, look, our rights will be jeopardized if these hearings go forward.

And that's the best way, and that's what ought to happen, rather than the White House putting its shield up around them.

So let's see if Garmin or somebody can get to Wilson or Mitchell's lawyer and say, God damn it, you cannot do this.

See what I mean?

The potential defendants.

And to a degree, justice should join that.

Listen, as the prosecutor, the prosecutor, the prosecutor should join him.

He can join him.

That's what I'm saying.

I say the prosecutor should accept it and say, as a prosecutor, having hearings might jeopardize the rights of innocent people, as well as the chances to protect the guilty.

And therefore, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I,

Then, only as a last resort should executive privilege be used as a device.

See, then the third thing is if prosecution, prosecution won't do it, if Hollywood's and, uh, Lexington's lawyers will not do it, see, then the White House simply moves and drops the blanket of executive privilege on the saying, we will not allow any man of equipment, we will very possibly

with the committee on all matters that it has the association over except the matter currently being considered in the criminal justice departments and that we have been advised that this might jeopardize the rights of these people, etc.

that until those, ma'am, until those proceedings are completed, uh, executive privilege is asserted.

Uh... That's generally the way we outlined it yesterday.

Yeah.

Now that means executive privilege with regard to appearances of all White House people that stole it and stopped their job.

That's right.

That's not the executive privilege is asserted.

uh now that doesn't stop me we've got the we've just gotten into it but i mean that was not going to testify that's the last resort now the best way of course is for the attorney general so that he is referring to negotiating this with the urban committee that's what fuchs was talking about earlier to negotiate

Now, you see, Garmin's been talking to me, but I don't think that Garmin, we ought to have him dazzle around there with a few minutes of it.

No, I think if we can keep out of it until we see the other, work the other first.

Those are the lines, it seems to me, that should be tried.

And then, as you say, let's get out some line cleaning up this white of, as a matter of fact, rather than getting out a

new guideline and writing and so forth and so on, I'd be inclined to soften the business about, you know, allowing conversations with regard to the any matters that have to do with the legal activities.

I just throw it out.

Let it be a tidbit.

You know what I mean?

Just give a little on that.

And then, because the more formal it is now, part of the problem with any formalism, then you start to have to interpret every goddamn thing.

That's the formal point for attack.

And you like to put it in the papers and so forth.

Why don't you put that out in the format?

As a matter of fact, what about the papers and so forth?

We just have loads of information.

It's better to put it down so that they can't get their feet down.

On the papers, for example, I would say that's something to make the basis of.

They ask for papers, you know, those are exactly papers.

We don't ask for, I suppose, anyone to cover up.

That's what I think.

That's one of the mistakes we made last week.

Those guidelines, we would have been much better just making some fuzzy forthcoming statements and nobody cooperating every way we possibly can without saying that we wish that they would have served a privilege.

But on this, I think they even as of like today consider the possibility of fuzzing out

I know your idea of saying the way to do this maybe is to wait until we insert executive privilege with the Congress.

You know, if we have to go the third course, if we insert it with the Congress, with the Urban Committee, then give with the branch.

I don't know that you have to wait that long.

My view is, on that, is just do that front of it.

I would think that if you could give them the executive privilege thing now so it doesn't appear... See my point?

Yes.

Look, they're out there now, Bob.

We didn't want to change it this morning.

That would have been awfully complicated.

I don't do anything.

I would simply say that if they call back if they want to, any matters that have to do with the...

It's only fair, and this is something to talk to Bob's lawyer about.

Absolutely.

They should do that.

Just to be sure that this is not going to get in my way.

But the point is that we want to appear to be forthcoming and not cover it up.

Because God damn it, Bob and John are not covering it up.

Should they, God damn it, they're not going to allow it.

And then, as I've already told you, you and I know that the main reason we've got to do is to keep an iron hand on the presidential papers for the only reason.

National security.

We cannot...

That's what the Times and others did everything about in Hellsberg.

I mean, the goddamn people sold those Pentagon Papers.

And now they want to get out of there with the whole goddamn violence.

We're not going to allow it.

How we were trying to stop them.

Now we're not going to allow that.

I mean, did you know that?

That's too hot.

That's too hot out on the floor.

I mean, it would really destroy it.

I mean, goddamn it.

We got police all the time.

What the hell did we do, for example?

We got several ambassadors.

and it's always been true you know this isn't any this isn't different with any other presidency or any other you just do not do it you cannot

Just say this involves a national security matter.

They said it's involved in legal activities.

It involves a national security matter.

I don't know.

I'm not going to go beyond that.

One point that Mitchell made, which was on June 1st, was when he said that he did not approve of a separate White House investigation on the Pentagon Papers.

Now, Mitchell was totally aware of it.

Totally aware of it.

I can tell you because, as I told you, a bizarre story.

Edgar Hoover refused to investigate because Marx, Marx's daughter was buried in that suburb of Jelser.

He refused.

And Mitchell said, well, you better get it done out of the way.

So that's why he conducted the investigation.

It was a simple thing.

The frustration we had at that time in this White House after months of the most serious leaks, nobody could have sat here and not moved to stop it.

We had to do something.

We had to do something in order to stop it.

It was a tough deal, but we had to do it.

My God, it was awful.

Well, I mean, I guess Dan Ellsberg will come out of the National Bureau and build this monument to him in Harvard Square.

Well, let me tell you, I've been frustrated a little about this, but you know, you finally come back always to the fundamental point.

I don't know, but whatever it is, whatever it is, some of it's being thrown, whatever it is, trying to place.

Al, we've got a higher calling here.

We've got to defend this office and this presidency.

We must go forward and do whatever we'd like to do.

We weren't elected to fight around this thing.

We weren't elected to be obsessed with it and wallowing in it and so forth.

Right.

Exactly right.

And that's what we're going to do.

We're going to have about another two weeks of hell.

And then one of us is going to turn

No, you know, you think it might track in two weeks.

I don't mean to doubt it, but I matter.

I think the hearings, they should go on for months now.

You know, they're going to have hearings up there, and they started to go on for months.

You know, I bet they're going to be at a different heat level and interest level.

Well, I'm sure it's true.

It doesn't involve the president, god damn it.

You know, it's nice, it's nice weekend reading, but it's not going to dominate.

It can't.

It can't go on.

You know, reading, I'm going to go, because I know that you've been reading some of the letters and flyers.

The media has been highly irresponsible in the way that it has played this out as being the biggest goddamn crisis in our history.

Now, it is a big crisis, after all, and the Attorney General and the Director of the FBI do talk about how safe those are four big fish go.

That's a big deal, right?

But for Christ's sakes, now, let's face it, the fight is what they went out.

It's a nutmeg.

and stealing them and so forth and so on.

There was no self-aggrandizement here.

In any way, these were men trying to protect the national interest.

They really felt they were working for their country.

See, that reality is going to permeate the final aspects of this.

Some violence, some bum judgments, some bum calls, all in the interest of the country.

That's different.

Well, I, uh, perhaps this afternoon, I want to get this legal thing going.

You've got to get everything going fine.

We can meet at 7 o'clock.

Sometimes we, uh, we haven't, uh, I don't know.

Do you think they're going to decide on most of the names later today, or?

Well, the, uh, the demand was placed in motion this morning, first thing.

And they, hopefully, will have an answer to that.

Whether we're going to have a problem or whether it's just going to happen right away.

Yeah.

What is the demand?

To return the papers or what?

No, to give us copies of them.

And to let the judge retain a copy.

That we can't stop.

But then we assess it.

And then we'll make a determination from there.

We may have to say this is inadmissible because of executive privileges.

I doubt it.

No, no, no.

We'll have to let them all out.

I think we have to let them go.

But they'll have to.

It's a curious little thing.

several boxes of papers and some, you know, I remember the files were supposed to have been crated out of here in the middle of the night.

Did they ever find those damn things?

No.

And I think they're...

I just don't know what's happened.

And he's, anything that's worth a while, he's put in that box.

The demons?

Yeah.

Oh yeah, that's his case.

It's his funny

But as his trump card, his trump card is basically that he worked here, and he's the main information regarding a lot of good, decent, honest people.

Oh, my God, he's not going to be allowed.

I'm very present about that process.

Absolutely.

And that means that he's got to be talked out to.