Conversation 916-011

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I just wanted to tell you something, you know, just because we had this, we had to say it in the round this morning.

Well, it was pretty rough.

We had two former Capitol officers invited to lose a vote in the House.

I said, but I got, we're on the way.

We're on the way.

You're not discouraged?

No, I got no, I'm not at all discouraged.

You're going to get some good, good reporting this weekend on what you did yesterday.

I'm confident of that.

And it's going to come out the right way.

So it looks like something that we made a big announcement on.

It's going to come out the right way.

I think we have it the right way.

Just a big splash.

Or I think about a big, ugly splash.

I don't know the way to do it.

It wasn't likely we were panicking.

That's right.

Now, Henry's in good frame of mind.

Yeah.

Let me ask you this.

The point that I wish to make is that here's why I thought a lot about the Secretary of State.

Thank you.

Rogers has to stay in.

probably through his land trip then.

Now, that is a hell of a thing for him, and it will lead, in one way or another, this really augmented offering.

Now, that is a very, very, very difficult decision for me, because the other candidate, basically, is Conley.

Connolly would help us a lot more politically, but in terms of getting his job done, Henry is indispensable.

Now, that's my current thinking.

My point is, how much of that do you want me to tell Henry?

Well, here's what he said to me, sir.

He said that the situation in Europe, and in the Soviets, is quite shaky.

from the European view, and they're supportive of this.

If, on the other hand, it was done over here, without the proper processes, and that Rogers was cut out, the bureaucracy was cut out, it's then going to be portrayed as a sellout.

So he wants to find a way to get to Rogers, I understand.

So that, well, he said, I have to have charge for this point.

Well, he said he felt that he didn't care whether he was Secretary of State.

He said he doesn't care.

He said he's going to leave.

That's what he told me.

He said, I'm going to leave.

I'm going to leave right after the summit.

Well, he is going to leave before the summit.

That's what he's going to play around with.

Well, this is what he's told me now.

I hear this crap all the time from him.

I just want you to know.

He's leaving because of Watergate.

because he doesn't feel that he has the control of Rogers.

You see, Rogers, he said, killed us on Cambodia.

He said this thing wasn't a violation of Article 20 of the agreement, that he made that statement on the Hill.

And it undercut the whole, the whole... Did he make that statement?

Yes, he did.

As much as it did, yes.

And that just...

was what was necessary, a couple of cards, and here he's going to go seal it up until next week.

All right, now that isn't fatal, though.

Henry's can't, he comes in and feels that it's fatal, that we're going to, it's a bad move, it's a bad break.

Goddamn it, we're going to continue to do it.

Well, I told him this morning we can continue to sort of relieve that problem.

He thought that was a little more serious than it was.

And then we're doing a damage limit on that to keep this one.

Well, listen, I don't think I'll see him this morning.

I frankly think I'll already see him with Rogers if he's in that frame of mind.

No, he's all right.

I'm not going to have him come in here and say he's going to leave.

I'm not even going to have him discuss it.

You're going to have to talk to him and say if he ever mentions resignation.

I got his resignation.

I haven't had practice.

I don't care about that.

I'll handle this thing.

He thinks he's indispensable.

of everything he has ever said.

Here, and David, the Lincoln sitting room, and the EOB, and every home.

Everything.

I don't have records in other areas, but everything in the National Security Area is recorded.

And that record will devastate you.

And I said, well, we've got too much to do.

Well, if we were to do that, that's what I wanted to talk about.

If we were to do that, I think that we'd have

wants to be Secretary of State.

You know, he left here yesterday afternoon.

He didn't really... You know, he knew he had an office and he talked to Daesh for an hour and he had good discussions.

But we never got down to any real...

He talked to Daesh?

Daesh.

So we never had a real substantive passing for him.

He's going on to Russia now?

No, sir.

He's postponing that trip.

Okay.

So you have him for whatever direction you want to move in.

And right now he's sort of waiting.

I think we better make the change, you know.

I would make a decision.

I'd see how this thing goes.

You see, what really ought to happen is that Henry thought of it.

I think you should know that I didn't get where I am by coming in and having all the data thrown out.

I think he really, his problem is he's lagging us.

He's been over there and he hasn't had the benefit of seeing things starting to go any

Good, positive thrust moving.

Well, he didn't get any positive thrust back yet, because all he could do is go here to charge on friends who see 15 minutes of water.

He's going to get more depressed than ever.

Come in and say, well, I think you should let him.

Remember, he was sort of the first to say, let all of the nerves go.

He didn't say that when he was under attack.

Could he say that?

He wasn't among the first.

in the back of our heads, for Christ's sakes.

Yeah, and that's why I say he gets a lot of talking.

I don't want you to be up there.

Henry Kissinger sitting here coming in every day when the president's got a hell of a lot of difficult problems on his mind, bitching and bellyaching and whining around.

I spent hours with him in this office.

That's what will kill him in one of these tapes.

If I ever put him out, which I trust to God they never have to see the day of mine.

Let me tell you, if he ever writes a self-serving thing, they're going to get out.

I didn't know he had this until, you know, your father was here.

I think it would be good for him to know this.

Huh?

This wouldn't be bad for him to know, so maybe in an indirect way.

No, I think the one at the time was you.

I used to say that I hear a funny thing, the present discovery of Boswell, that in this office with the officers, they had custom.

Oh, the janitor was also wearing something.

I'll get to him.

Do you know who?

I did not.

And they're all there now.

I don't know.

Basically, you know, you pick up what you want.

Well, I...

I think Johnson, Cranky Johnson, over did it.

Christ, you know, he even had a wire and tapped everybody but placed them.

But he's got one right in this room.

You and I are going to leave the corner of the check.

You've got one in here.

You've got one in the category.

You've got one in the EOB.

He's got one in the Lincoln Center room, which I use.

And he used to, I don't know, later.

I tell them, because they're automatically going to have it.

Well, they should be.

It should be in front of everyone, unless you didn't want it.

That's just, that has to be.

Well, I recommend, sir, he's not going to say anything at all about this subject, and I just want you to know it's frame of mind, and we'll work this out.

And he'll know.

What is your judgment of those?

Basically, we just may have to move on the county.

We have strong medicine.

I put you, I tell you what, I think a lot better have county over in State Department than I would here.

You can't.

I can't.

Under no circumstances.

But in State Department, county would be good.

It'd be good.

It'd be pretty good, no?

It's not, it's, it wouldn't be my preferred option simply because I don't think

all this idea

I don't prefer it.

It may be what is the best thing to do.

And it wouldn't be anything but a damn good move.

It's just less good than Kissinger who's got his head out of the dance and looking at cameras and working his head out of the dance.

Yeah, I think all he would do today is talk to you about what he got.

I mean, I think we've got a hell of a good package from what he said.

Could I ask you a couple of other questions?

Yes, sir.

Did you, by any chance, hear from any greater of a race?

Yes.

Yes, I did.

I talked to him last night.

Should I talk to him today?

Would it be helpful?

Or is he better than her?

Does he want to stay in arms?

I don't know.

I don't think it would hurt for you to talk to him just to boost his morale up.

He's not that, not saggy, but...

The problem is Connery.

But he's confident.

He's going to be clear.

I decided that there was going to be a speech that was being called, not to do it Sunday night.

I think that the way that it's going to be made known is because I haven't remembered.

I decided that we're going to have a five-part meeting.

Yes, he did.

He had a long talk with him.

Stennis said this is the only way to do it.

He can't go to Irwin directly, but he's going to have Talmadge do it.

And he – I'm also working with Richardson to work with the attorney.

Yes.

As soon as he gets cleared, he's going to do that.

Good.

Now, Stennis thinks they may be able to do this.

He thinks they may, and he's anxious to take it on.

I've given Warren Ernie twice now to Elliott, and I said that...

He ought to be on it.

There's a better name than Ernie.

Well, he assured me he'd be on the list, but I'm not sure of where he'll be on the list.

And I'm going to make another call to his government.

I heard it back from Rodgers.

I talked to him last night.

Yes, I did.

He said that the... Warren Biden said no.

He said no, and he thinks it's very bad, and the Chief Justice said it was bad, but he didn't find somebody else.

Right.

So Rodgers is out of that now.

Struck out of that now.

Right.

And they're working with McClellan, Baker, and Talmadge on the Senate here.

And that's how Stennis is working.

He said, that's the best way to box everybody in.

Does Stennis feel strong about it?

Very strong.

He thinks it's a tragedy and he's going to get it.

He said he'll give everything he can get.

There's a hearing today.

You've got a funny situation in the FBI.

I remember I talked to you back in Sullivan.

Sullivan would have been the best man, no question about it.

I know about that.

Felt's supposed to be the leader.

Felt did?

Yeah.

He's got to go, but we've got to be careful.

It's the one who cut his nuts off.

He's bad.

What did his investigation show?

It really doesn't show anything, but it's going to screw up the whole Ellsberg case.

Because you recall Ellsberg was in one of the taps of Halpern.

Michael?

No, no.

Ellsberg, they were tapping Halpern in 1970.

Yes.

And he was talking to Ellsberg.

Ellsberg.

And apparently, John remembered that, John Elliott.

So that when the Ellsberg papers leaked, he called Marty and said, get me those old tapes.

They were all delivered to John.

Now, that's irregular procedures.

There's nothing illegal.

I think so, yes.

That's right.

The burden of proof is on the government to prove that the taps were legitimate, which they were.

So it's very probable, according to Elliott, that the judges have dismissed the Ellsberg case, the Columbus trap, due to the inference that they were, some inference that the White House was building a case against Ellsberg even before the papers were stolen.

That's a goddamn weird circumstance, isn't it?

Oh, I see.

True.

I thought what we were, in other words, at the time, at the time the FBI was counting Hoffman because of his, they ran into a Hoffman conversation with Ellsworth.

Well, you see, Hoffman was probably one of the leaders.

It wouldn't surprise me.

Yeah.

And then Ehrlichman.

So testifying.

Ehrlichman felt that

We know that Felton leads this for the Times.

Well, according to Elliott, they're sure.

And as a matter of fact, I talked to Bill Sullivan yesterday.

And what Felton is doing is trying to kill Bill Sullivan so he can be director of the FBI and not Bill Sullivan.

These guys are just unbelievable.

So I think we can't go in-house in the FBI.

That place is riddled and rotten.

See, Felton...

Well, I've got a meeting right now with the lawyer, Bazzardi.

Bazzardi.

I got a bundle of stuff that was involved during the proof-leave stuff and so forth, which I had put in the safe.

Here.

They're here.

That's good.

Oh, yes, yes, yes.

They're here.

I said, fine.

So long.

I don't know anybody.

That's all.

That's it.

That can't go anywhere.

What if they ask us?

We haven't been here.

Well, it wouldn't, you know, it wouldn't be bad to have the tape of that

conversations that were going to come public of that one, because that indicts Elberg and Hampton to real shit.

So that's all I want to talk to Bazzard about.

Since it does, it will show that there was widespread, widespread taping.

They know that.

That's going to be proven.

All right.

That there were 16 huge men tapped is now...

Well, I want to talk to Bazaar.

I have a plan.

It could be that if we got in the worst situation, that somebody would say, well, you know, yes.

This has been done for years.

J. Edgar Hoover approved it, which he did.

And the results of the taps were furnished to the

I don't know what else is in there.

Yeah, but it's all about craft is in there too, isn't it?

Well, Brandon?

How would you turn these open?

around that, or I don't know.

Well, we'll have to see how the hearing goes today.

Solomon is over there.

He's just going to say this is a result of J. Edgar Hoover's deception of the president of the National Security Leaks, and that this was the kind of thing that had always been done.

Tradition.

How do you know that's what he's going to say?

Solomon told you that's what he's going to say?

Well, listen, I don't think the meeting with Mitchell is

I'm not so worried about that.

I'm not at all worried.

God damn it is.

Yeah.

And we may only have to counterattack with some of this stuff.

Yeah.

And put it out what we were doing.

But you see, when the time is up, people start to get filled.

No, Hoover.

I didn't tell Hoover tap this, tap that.

He did.

He developed lines.

When one guy made the surface, it was suspicious.

They put a tap on it.

He's had Brandon for years, long before I ever got him.

Brandon is in double agent.

He said, you know, that's what Hoover's always said.

I don't know what he's about to do.

That's right.

I think he is.

There's hardly any question about that.

It may be worse.

And I never saw it.

In fact, the matter is that was responsible, proven, and necessary protection.

Well, is Soldo going out to testify on Richardson?

Is that what it is?

Yes, Richardson is all excited.

He thought last night that they had a cabal here that was related.

I said, now, for Christ's sake, this had anything to do with the subsequent stuff, except of all of our respect.

What do you think?

Oh, he had the feeling that maybe Krogh and those people down had, you know, been working for some time to get the goods on Ellsberg, or that it was related in some way.

I don't know.

Absolutely not.

Ellsberg may have turned up in the... First time I ever even seen Ellsberg.

So that's...

And they're going to strike.

Get it off.

God damn it.

It's too bad.

It is too bad.

But anyhow, I just... That's the latest, Elliot.

Elliot.

Elliot, I think, should be either cleared today or tomorrow.

Or Monday.

But Sullivan has been called.

Why?

Because he was

so tough, when Ruckelhaus first called, he said, you're getting nothing from me.

He said, you have to order a written definition.

I said, I'm not doing anything like that.

And then they started putting screws on it, giving the list of questions that you should, who ordered the tabs.

And that guy, there were five pages of it.

And he's our own guy, Ruckelhaus.

I think Solomon will be a good witness.

Yes, I do.

And he probably will say.

I think he'll say that J. Edgar Hoover released.

It looked like they were coming out of the White House staff or someplace in the government.

And that J. Edgar Hoover authorized these tax reports of them as they have always been provided to the White House.

over at Menlo, from the Janger over to the President, which were delivered initially to Kissinger.

Kissinger saw these, didn't he?

Yes, if they involved us.

Well, initially he saw them all.

I know, he was reading everything.

Right.

Then it was changed after about four months, and we got only what involved NSC people.

Right.

And they started going directly to the gentleman.

made tapping a questionable activity in Germany, as I understand it.

We were happy with it.

Yeah, it was in Germany, but then the hunting started after that.

Oh, I see.

So it's not too good to draw on the purity of this thing.

Yeah.

The hunting is tough, because they quaintly did, I mean, I don't know what Erwin says on the tap, but I don't know.

A couple of...

I think that's awfully hard to do, you know.

How'd they not have done that?

I suspect they didn't.

Well, I think in that case, we have nothing.

There's been nobody doing any tapping after that.

This can be treated very, very clearly.

Wait a minute.

The Supreme Court here had come before I came back.

We tapped that now.

I don't know when it came.

We sure tapped that when it did come.

I don't know if we did, and I think we did, I guess.

Well, how the hell did we find that, Andrew?

Well, I don't know.

That's what I wanted to talk to Bazar about, you know, to be sure that we don't get it wrapped around here today.

If something comes out of it, what Ron said is exactly the right thing.

If we have to say anything at all, I think... You should say nothing about it today.

That's my view.

I wouldn't say anything.

And don't leave this in time.

That's the report Elliot had, and Sullivan told me that that's what's going on.

Well, he did.

He used the lead at the time.

Thanks.

He's a bad guy, you see.

Very good.

He's got to go.

That's the only thing I want to talk to the sergeant about.

How does... Well, it was... You can't get back.

You still don't have anybody for the damn FBI to have you run.

Don't rent this corridor.

So, Frank, it's got to be an outsider.

It's got to be an outsider, and we ought to get the dean of the law school.

I'm looking for that Frank kind of guy.

Because he's the lawyer that sees his wife.

Well, let's get the dean of the law school, and it's going to go back and everything.

Something to talk a lot about other things.

He is 100% behind you.

100%.

You think he is?

I don't know.

You don't know?

Especially me.

He's a patriot, that's why.

What's he into, though?

He's up to it.

What is he trying to do?

He has a bureau.

He has a bureau and a blockade.

Somebody else can run the house.

Except I have great confidence in him.

For years, he's been really the best man in the universe.

Well, I suppose the story is the president ordered the attack.

Yeah.

Billy?

Yeah.

It's the way Solomon was going to say it.

Hoover talked to the president.

Actually, what happened is Mitchell ordered it to succeed.

I didn't.

He, Hoover, talked to me about it.

And I said, get the dough, you know what I mean?

Do the best you can.

But Mitchell hadn't proved it.

He hadn't proved it.

Solomon's perspective of it, I mean, that's what he got is,

I didn't want to get in the business of telling him what to say.

He's an honest, straight, patriotic guy.

This happens to be a totally honest, straight, patriotic action.

And it's going to be portrayed that way.

That's good.

It's the lack of knowledge on this thing that creates the impression that you're doing elsewhere impression or doing elsewhere.

I'm sure that's how it happened, because it was such a startling discussion between two guys who had been working intimately in our government.

Two total traitors.

Their character was bad, and their loyalty was bad.

They were talking about it, I don't believe so.

And how to have a sanitized Vietnam policy.

Ellsberg helped.

Yeah.

And there was anarchistic statements in there by Ellsberg

We were just playing.

We were trying to establish a path.

Hold on.

Stop it.

and we just don't put it out.

Elliot, we can't have Elliot get goosey and decide he doesn't want to be the Attorney General.

That would be a terrible law.

What the hell could that happen?

He's not going to have to be the Attorney General.

Huh?

Bring John McComb in or somebody like that.

No, he's not a lawyer.

Is Elliot that goosey?

I think he's confident.

I think he's, but he gets, you just have to, well, they keep in touch with him every day, so he doesn't get to thinking of things that are going on that aren't going on.

These were done, ordered to be mentioned for the purpose of checking the fact that he leaks the National Security Council prior to the elsewhere.

I told him that.

I said, you, there's nothing wrong with this.

He said, I agree.

He said, him, that's

I don't think he should.

He's too, uh...

He's interested in other things.

I'm talking about our client power, man.

The guy who had the lawyer on here couldn't do what you're saying.

It's been two years or what you say about him.

You mean the former bureau guy?

Well, he's been in the committee this summer.

Oh, not yet.

He did that security work for us.

Now, there's another fellow named Cusack, who's a professional, and is now out practicing law in Cleveland, and I haven't looked him into him.

Another very good man.

But I have a feeling that anybody in the house...

Agreed.

It ought to be a fairly easy thing to do.

But I think I wouldn't move too quickly because it's conceivable this could come out in a way that you'd want to put something.

He'd clean out that goddamn substance.

And he'd be your man.

That's what we're up against.

See, that's what's been worrying me about our current situation.

I've been around this town some time, Mr. President, and if your bureaucracy leaves, that's when trouble starts.

I know.

And we've got to keep these guys on board, most of them.

Trace it out, you'll find we're democratically placed.

I know, I know.

But I think as it came out yesterday in that meeting, they were 80% for you.

We alienated them in that transition.

And when they escaped, boy, they promised.

And that's the problem with the state over there right now.

These guys have to watch.

But you're not making it out.

But they were...

The problem with space was pretty bad before the transition, too.

It was always in vain.

But you have that space.

That's right.

And they're calories.

But where's now?

So either it's going to be economy or it gets to get that goddamn thing pulled together.

And it went one way or the other.

It's got to be one or the other.

I mean, my humble view...

Well, they've been pretty good recently, I must say that.

Say what?

Yes, they have.

Bill's... Well, Al...

It's too bad you've got the damn problem there.

Oh, well, that's... You say it's just another one to find, huh?

Sure, I would see Henry just a... Well, I'll give him a little...

But I have this damn leak that...

I just don't saw them.

Why did they call him?

Because how'd they know that he was in charge?

I don't know.

I'm sure that his friend over there offended him and led Rockwell House to him.

In fact, I'm sure he ran the investigation for Rockwell House.

He wouldn't have worked a turn over there.

Is he out of the bureau?

Or is he?

He's out of the bureau.

He's been working on this drug thing for a number of months.

He's going to take a line that we didn't do it.

They were ordered for purposes of so forth and so on.

But then they come to the crunch question, well, where are they?

That's the problem.

What's he going to say?

Well, he gave them to Marty.

Who?

To Marty, Bob Marty.

Oh, Christ.

Marty destroyed them.

Is that his next story?

No, I think Marty will say that they were given to Irvington.

What about the ones in the bureau?

No, the tapes themselves.

I didn't tell you something like that.

I didn't ask you.

My understanding was that they were destroyed over there at the direction of the director.

The tapes themselves.

They came around.

I remember them doing a police job around the White House here.

You get every one of those memos.

They were all numbered.

And we looked.

I'm sure we'd be given all the answers.

What was this?

This was about the time of the Supreme Court.

Then after that, we did it in Pakistan.

Who the hell did it in Pakistan?

Not me.

I don't know.

I wasn't... See, that's... We were not in there.

I don't know what happened.

John ran all that.

Oh.

That's right.

Because of all the MSC.

I think it was probably then.

Oh, the lighting?

Yes, I tried to get one on that.

No audience, but... Really?

I don't know.

I thought somebody had told me that they hated everybody like crazy in that period of time.

Well, it seems to me that you and, uh, you ought to have talked with, uh, with John Erickson about this.

Don't you think so?

Or do you, uh, or do you agree to know what the hell the facts are?

At least we'd better know.

Well, that's what I was going to get the guard to do.

Get the guard to get to him.

I don't know where the hell we should stand on it.

We don't want any surprises here.

No.

You were not killed.

You were trying to get them.

You were all trying to get them.

God damn it.

What are you doing?

What are you doing for everybody else?

And that's the way this thing has to be presented.

My God, this has been done by Kennedy Johnson.

And we did less of it.

We did less of it.

Remember, I said that in the news conference.

We had 78 so-called leaders.

No, I want to get bizarre right away, but let's see, thank you.

Or Todd Holm.

As a matter of fact, I had Larry checking Todd's desk.

Todd Holm?

Yeah.

Does he know about it?

He does.

Good.

Let's don't take it back right now.

It would be an absolute travesty and a tragedy.

That's why I called Elliot.

I happened to know, but he started bleeding to me about the situation.

I said, I happen to know about these attacks.

I said, God damn it.

Henry was serviced with them.

They involved our people.

We fired two people on the head of them.

We got rid of them.

We didn't fire them.

We had other grounds, too.

But this was just straight, prudent protection of the national interest.

And it was totally above board.

Attorney General.

approved everyone, one lead to another, one lead led to another.

Sometimes they'd listen to a guy for a period and nothing came up, so they'd drop him.

They were all predicated on the leaks.

He said, no, that's good.

He said, that's good.

He said, I'm glad to hear that.

He said, but we do have the problem of the imagery of it.

I said, that's right, and that's what we cannot take a bad rap on.

He's got to go all the offensive on the national security line.

I wish to God that Sullivan would do that.

Well, Sullivan will.

He's an old fellow.