Nixon White House Tapes — Conversation 916-014
Date: Friday, May 11, 1973 at 10:15 AM
Participants: [Unknown person(s)]; Kissinger, Henry A.; Nixon, Richard M. (President); Haig, Alexander M., Jr.; Rogers, William P.; Members of the press
Recording device: Oval Office
Source: https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/916-014

This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite it as authoritative.

[1:16] Yeah.
[1:18] Right.
[1:18] Right.
[1:19] Yeah.
[1:47] Tell him what he wants now.
[1:49] Lincoln Mark III.
[1:51] That's what he asked for.
[1:53] He asked for a refund.
[1:56] How these guys are alive is nothing clear to me.
[2:00] They drove me from the airport to this place, which is 85 miles in an hour and 10 minutes on these Russian roads.
[2:09] He drove me around the reserve at 90 miles, 80 to 90 miles an hour on this road.
[2:22] There's a motive out there.
[2:24] Not the one you saw on the trip.
[2:27] He's got a new one now with a tremendous propeller in the rear that can also go over land that goes 70 miles an hour over water.
[2:38] And he drove me into it himself.
[2:40] You know, it had to be fully on the road, but I could have done without it.
[2:46] But it's a style of life to separate the difference between these hobbles and their villages.
[2:52] And the way these leaders live, the prerogatives these leaders have compared to American leaders is unbelievable.
[3:05] That's true.
[3:06] He has a house there.
[3:07] It's a very small house, but after all, he goes to this.
[3:13] He has stature, as you see.
[3:16] This he only goes to when he wants to go hunting.
[3:37] 18 to the 26th.
[4:09] They are obviously counting on this as a big success.
[4:50] They handed the sentence to the department, five drafts, and even to make six, you must check them.
[4:57] And they're in the process of being five hours, so they may bring over one or two of those ministers just for the signing ceremony.
[5:06] But basically, it's under our authority, Gromyko, Dobrykin, and Konienko, who say that this American...
[5:22] They're placing a lot of attention.
[5:24] They went over the outline to communicate with us, and they were submitted formally and had the chance to discuss it.
[5:33] It seemed that they were making an effort to be conciliatory and not too obvious.
[5:44] We've got these five or six drafts.
[5:56] They are very cocky.
[5:58] And we have this atrocity situation in this government, which you are very well aware of.
[6:03] The chiefs have gone completely crazy on murder positions.
[6:08] They're asking for equal averages at the Soviet level, which means we'll never build up to it, and the Soviets already got it.
[6:18] So, and as a condition for...
[6:26] It's very clear to this media that they have no intention of agreeing to any of those limitations.
[6:30] I like, in many ways, your position.
[6:34] There's a chance in hell of getting that.
[6:36] Why do you think so?
[6:39] Well, there's a lot to be said for it, but there's a need for both of these.
[6:44] But, well, the trouble with altering the full State Department position is that you have an open rebellion now by the Chiefs because it affects Trident.
[6:55] That we could offer something that State also goes along with very strongly, namely a ban on a freeze on land-based moves, which would freeze our development at about 400 out of 550 and keep them out of moving the SS11s and SS9s.
[7:15] And it would be a tremendous deal for us.
[7:18] I know the State people are supporting it.
[7:21] Chiefs are violently opposed even to that.
[7:25] And also knowing the way they lead to work their own ways with Jackson and some of the Hawks, that if we, if I can call them in and roll with them,
[8:05] No, we can't get an agreement with the President, but we should make that offer, because we're going to have a major problem with our MERS in Congress.
[8:19] If we don't make a MERS offer, we don't have a solvent negotiation, because numbers are senseless right now.
[8:25] The President told me they were going to put either eight or four MERS, depending on what size warhead they want on their missiles.
[8:33] When they have eight MERS on a missile,
[8:37] then whether they have 50 more missiles is much less important than whether they're merged.
[8:43] And therefore, just to keep the negotiations alive without coming to any agreement, we must have a merged position.
[8:53] Because if numbers are no longer the key issue, that won't lead to a conclusion anyway, Mr. President, and they'll turn it down.
[9:01] But at least we will have met the offer.
[9:06] The only thing is now you may have to send another director to the chief.
[9:16] They won't be able to oppose it because it will be turned down if
[9:39] No use thinking about what the damn arguments are.
[9:42] And they have got to understand that at this stage, you know, they're living in a dream world.
[9:50] They're living in a world, as you saw, as if, you know, you're going to get all of these things.
[9:56] Things like that vote yesterday.
[9:57] We're in a situation where, I mean, we should take our asses right out of the animals, but we, on the other hand, have got to have people who say, well, instead of the animals,
[10:11] Why the hell we ever got in that position?
[10:13] We didn't have to include any money for that.
[10:16] Well, there's a chance for it.
[10:18] We didn't know anything about it until about a week ago.
[10:20] I talked this to the president before you came in.
[10:24] It was in France, put it in.
[10:26] We only talked about $150 million, which they could transfer from M&O funds.
[10:44] inflation, about devaluation, increased costs, they could prove that.
[10:49] So what, and they only had 25, 25 million for additional money.
[10:55] But that raised the issue.
[10:57] If they let that out, instead of all of this, this is, well, let me say, it was all done with the door open.
[11:05] We've got to, we've got to even know about it.
[11:06] We've got to, I know, we've got to understand, I'm going to call my annex, and it's not fatal.
[11:10] It was not fatal because, uh,
[11:25] That's all I was speaking on today.
[11:26] It was on the 15th, 16th, 17th, 17th.
[11:27] Anyway, that's why, when we found out about Jonathan Plowman, I talked about it in executive session, and I think I changed some minds of people just on the ground.
[11:38] I saw you in executive session.
[11:39] It was very good.
[11:41] In the executive session, it was even better, because they had to listen.
[11:46] And the Center for Relations can be held at Wintershark.
[11:50] And Jonathan Plowman's committee, they listened.
[12:02] Well, now that it's done, now we've got to go for the, uh, just continue to do what we're doing, pray.
[12:09] If the person makes the, makes the option in terms of the, uh, in terms of an argument, maybe it's, uh, to, to say, uh, now what the hell are they going to do?
[12:20] The Congress has said we can't do anything in Cambodia that forces it.
[12:25] I mean, can we do anything in any place that forces it?
[12:29] Was it?
[12:30] Anyway, that's what I was going to say.
[12:33] unless they start from start that and that's the main thrust of your business they really want to understand oh uh tell bill if you uh i sent every cable from
[13:18] I didn't get the note.
[13:20] I got a cable from the scope room saying you're following.
[13:27] The president wrote the following handwritten note on your cable.
[13:36] And I showed that cable to...
[13:47] great pressure on them to react.
[13:49] They said they feel they're a second tourist to the agreement.
[15:04] We talked a bit about the Middle East
[15:39] Thank you very much for your time.
[16:10] But as far as the three propositions are concerned, that again, it's an interim agreement.
[16:15] They said, unless it's a simultaneous part of an overall agreement, which is less than the, more than the others are asking.
[16:25] Which is kind of the truth.
[16:27] Yeah, that is, you have a final agreement.
[16:30] Exactly.
[16:32] They were vehement, but vague.
[16:34] They had not one specific set of propositions.
[16:40] I almost had the impression that they were taking their speech so that they could send it to Cairo or wherever they're sending it.
[16:49] That's right, they've never changed their position.
[16:51] The only thing new in their position is not favorable.
[16:55] The only thing new, what they in fact proposed is their 68 scheme.
[17:02] Flopper 69, whatever it was.
[17:05] Plus, now they're saying there has to be a negotiation between the Palestinians and the Israelis on top of the border settlement.
[17:12] There has to be a... And, you know, that's almost impossible.
[17:18] The border settlement is hard to conceive of.
[17:21] I agree with what you're saying.
[17:23] We're all meeting.
[17:23] Yeah, yeah.
[17:25] We should be able to have a war in the Middle East.
[17:30] My interest is that we will have a war.
[17:34] At least I doubt that much.
[17:59] They agreed, the Russians agreed, that the Arabs would be defeated first.
[18:03] And Mother Zataya, who was the foreign minister, the last foreign minister to the table, told me that, you know, he said, we would have no chance at all against Israel.
[18:15] We wouldn't be able to last a week.
[18:18] And he said it would take us 10 years.
[18:20] In fact, it's been a little too.
[18:37] uh there is a security council meeting coming the end of may another one and we have our plans
[19:43] I always told him I didn't have a schedule for going to Europe.
[19:47] And, in fact, my talks with the Vietnamese were never said until last week.
[19:53] He's now planning to be in Paris at the same time and stay on an extra morning.
[20:00] And I'm planning to meet him secretly.
[20:03] By the way, these guys leave.
[20:05] Well, they can't be secret because it's all travel with the telegrams.
[20:25] I think it would be helpful to me if you could have somebody from the department with you, because otherwise it's going to be what they've been saying, you know, that you told them not to deal with.
[21:17] I think you ought to keep a close watch to see what Dismal has been saying, if he's been saying anything wrong in the back channels, because a lot of people feel left out of it.
[21:24] And we are, as I see it, dealing with Israelis and the British, trying to coordinate our efforts, I mean.
[21:31] Was Dismal saying anything?
[21:32] No, he hasn't said a thing.
[21:35] He has made not one concrete proposition.
[21:37] I talk to him here.
[21:39] And he said nothing to me with all this bullshit.
[21:42] He said nothing to me that wasn't worth paying him what he had said to you.
[21:49] That's what they're trying to do, and that's what we're showing people about.
[22:46] That's what I mean.
[22:48] Your talk should go on on a private basis and so forth.
[22:53] I agree with you.
[23:20] because of the fact that you might just love them, for which they're not ready.
[23:25] That has to be muted somewhat as a result of the general situation in this country.
[23:32] The second, I think, is that the age is a powerful level.
[23:36] And one other option we have, which we haven't done much of, is we won't cause the house a lot of money to mine them again.
[23:53] And now we roll the decision.
[23:55] And that will be fine, sir, if it will be done with one more screen.
[24:27] It kicked us in the teeth.
[24:29] But you see, basically, our department only provides a lot of camposia.
[24:34] All four, of course, just all four.
[24:36] And how about trying another ceasefire?
[24:38] You don't have a ceasefire camposia at about that time, because there's a hell of a lot of fighting going on anyway.
[24:45] Most of you read what I have.
[24:47] I have some good ideas.
[24:57] Well, I think one idea,
[25:33] every day in Cambodia, and I don't know what the hell they're hitting.
[25:41] I'd have to just study it.
[25:42] It's certainly mainly a psychological effect.
[25:46] A lot of people, what they're doing, of course, the Cambodians don't like to fight anyway, but every time they see somebody or a gunshot, they call for an exhaler, and they come in and they bomb, you know, 10 people.
[26:00] The only thing you have to watch is whether
[26:09] We don't have one hell of a time.
[26:15] No, I'm getting anything from Congress.
[26:19] They're going to pass it right into the State Department for a period.
[26:53] They're taking away our service.
[26:55] They're taking away our cameras.
[26:58] And then they say, how did you ever believe the agreement would be kept?
[27:02] We never thought it would be kept without the rest of the cameras.
[27:06] Well, for crying out loud, the agreement is mine.
[27:42] and then you have an economic meeting following over Captain Yogi, at least we can build on this sort of expectation.
[27:53] And then also, we have a unilateral ceasefire.
[27:56] Then let us get the provocation more clearly that then the 80 bastards on the other side broke it again.
[28:04] We didn't get much attention on that before.
[28:28] Well, if we keep going until after your meeting, then it's going to look as if it was a result of your meeting.
[28:37] I think it has to be after your meeting, because basically, not after the vote.
[28:42] We just keep going right after your meeting.
[28:45] Another week, and there will be a little uproar here.
[28:47] They'll say, sure, we've got a right to do this.
[28:48] And after your meeting, it'll look as if you had some constructive talks.
[28:54] And now we're going to have you go out on a ceasefire and see how you behave here.
[29:05] There's no explanation for it.
[29:12] We didn't need it.
[29:34] No, no, no, no, no.
[29:37] Not then.
[29:38] Yeah.
[30:19] And it came true.
[30:20] Because we never want to ask for any votes that cause us to have to do what we're doing.
[30:29] Well, anyway, just don't think that all is lost.
[30:32] We do, and that's, and all will be lost.
[30:34] And it is lost.
[30:35] But the reason it would take me too long, it's only been two months, it's only been two months, and we could have gotten most of the money without even raising the issue.
[30:44] And we didn't want to spend that much time on it.
[30:51] So they figured out that they couldn't get it.
[31:19] you jeopardize the peace
[31:52] We think it's going to succeed.
[31:53] But we've got to have some tools to do it.
[31:56] And if you stop us now, if you stop us now from bombing, you'll jeopardize it.
[31:59] Now, that puts them on a whole other spot.
[32:02] But if you say we're going to bomb anyway, no matter what you do, that's time to be against bombing.
[32:09] And also jeopardizing peace by making it appear that we can't continue it.
[32:16] They can afford the bombing without any blame.
[32:18] It was unnecessary and unnecessary.
[32:21] about let's get away
[33:46] policy of this government to put Latin, to put the hemispheric interest at the very top of the list, because without a solid hemisphere, there is no policy that we can have.
[34:00] And, you know, a little of that, but the other thing is that in terms of this, that the usually long-term service that are made by President
[34:23] and so forth.
[34:23] We welcome the Latin Americans
[35:07] We'd be interested in their views as to how such a meeting could be useful.
[35:13] I can't go to 20 countries.
[35:14] I don't have the time.
[35:50] He wants to invite all Latin Americans to come.
[36:14] I think it's better to meet individually and meet the whole-blooded gang.
[36:24] Yeah, sit down, whole-blooded gang.
[36:27] There's hours of speeches, one-on-one speeches or not.
[36:32] But I think there should be individual meetings.
[36:36] Remember, I still...
[36:37] I don't know, Jeff.
[36:38] I think that...
[36:47] uh... uh... uh... uh... uh...
[37:16] The only other thing that's up in the air that I'm not going to get your decision on, I think, is that it can't be something that hasn't been done.
[37:23] Well, not at all.
[37:24] I'm ready for it.
[37:24] We recommend that we go ahead and launch our military sales improvement.
[37:29] I think that it makes sense what we're doing now.
[37:33] We need to get the order to the Russians.
[38:40] Well, this is the problem.
[38:42] We've... No, this wasn't the CCS.
[38:44] We've got the problem.
[38:46] We've got the fishermen.
[38:49] Well, the hell with the fishermen.
[38:55] I mean, because... Why don't they go fish someplace else?
[38:57] Fish off Japan.
[39:00] Yeah.
[39:00] Well, I think that's...
[39:02] I think that's...
[39:03] I appreciate it.
[39:04] Fortunately, it's good.
[39:06] I've seen it when everybody else is going in there.
[39:11] I look forward to the celebration of my boyhood.
[39:14] My boyhood may be a little proud.
[40:02] I think we'll get it confirmed.
[40:04] Well, not for a while.
[40:04] I mean, what we'll do is go back to the whole bombing issue and the consultation.
[40:09] For example, we've had quite a time.
[40:11] We've had quite a time with the Greenlight and, to some extent, the other committees.
[40:16] I don't know whether they'll hold them up or not.
[40:20] But that committee, anybody that can change that, is going to be dead.
[40:28] But the problem with confirmation is the Trump one.
[40:32] on the DCN, which would have to be a board of service man.
[40:38] I don't think so.
[40:42] Well, that's what I would rather do is, I already think about who is the military man we have there.
[40:49] Can we, uh, uh, a U.S. officer that's still, uh, that, you know, if you understand, yeah.
[40:56] Well, nothing.
[40:59] Still knows the area particularly well, but
[41:08] See the DCM right now?
[41:41] Why?
[41:41] Oh, he said...
[42:16] There was no way he could point it at himself.
[42:20] Then he went to a kind of corporate
[43:05] You know, really, in any event, how about, how about, how about, uh, how about, uh, how about, uh, how about, uh,
[43:34] I want a military oriented type of, you know, when I say military oriented, oriented towards
[44:18] But how about in the BCN in Cambodia?
[44:22] Say, Andrews is a pretty good man.
[44:24] Maybe we could have a stronger man there.
[44:26] Yes, sir.
[44:26] The trouble, Swank is a nice guy.
[44:31] I think Swank could be as tough as God.
[44:35] They think he would be a little better in Cambodia, not decidedly better.
[44:44] Well, I don't know about that, but I think that he's been quite a while.
[44:48] He doesn't have much story.
[44:49] I mean, Godley was running things.
[44:51] He was running things.
[44:52] He was just military people.
[44:59] I mean, I don't know.
[45:00] Well, let's put it this way.
[45:01] Let's let Godley.
[45:02] Is Godley here yet?
[45:05] Yeah, he's here, but he's running things.
[45:10] But yeah, he's here.
[45:12] I'll find out.
[45:23] I need to change there, but I think what we ought to do then is to get the strength is not a question.
[45:33] Well, I don't mind it being Upper Chad or, you know, or Uruguay or something like that.
[46:06] I don't speak for that city.
[46:56] He was, I don't know, he's out of town.
[47:34] I'm all for it.
[47:37] The only other one I was wondering if I could ask your advice on.
[47:41] I've made a recommendation for Carol Lace, a public affairs officer, a public affairs officer in the department.
[47:48] She's a person who deals with colleges and civic groups and shapes like that.
[47:53] And she's the wife of Bunker.
[47:54] Yeah.
[47:54] Oh, sure.
[47:55] She's a, she's a... Yeah, I've seen her, of course.
[47:58] Well, I just sent it over to her for anything.
[48:01] I just got through.
[48:04] That's right.
[48:06] Well, that's great validation to a very high level and conquerors.
[48:14] Great.
[48:41] What is your view as to who would be on the floor that I would pay?
[49:13] I quit a couple of law school means.
[49:17] I don't know.
[49:19] Or, uh... Or, uh... Scranton.
[49:22] Scranton would be good.
[49:25] I don't know what this is.
[49:26] Oh, this is on this, uh...
[49:27] This study campaign practice.
[49:30] Scranton is always a troublemaker.
[49:33] That was the... That was the precious audio case I owned.
[49:39] I think, uh, the University Press would be good.
[49:42] Finally...
[49:51] The one that everybody would applaud and I think would be dangerous, I wouldn't want to see.
[50:06] Oh, never, never, never, never, never.
[50:10] He's a business for himself.
[50:12] He's a business for himself.
[50:14] How about Wilson from Harvard?
[50:26] I don't suppose our old friend, Secretary of State,
[50:59] I don't really, I don't know.
[51:00] It's only because he's been bugging me to take it on relatively.
[51:04] I do, but I'm not doing it.
[51:06] Sam, it's Terry Sanford.
[51:07] I don't know who he is.
[51:09] He was the governor.
[51:13] You're right.
[51:14] He won't be here, but I am waiting.
[51:15] But isn't it amazing how few remaining distinguished public servants that are alive are gone?
[51:22] Yes.
[51:34] Get anybody out of the West.
[52:10] And also
[53:11] saying that you're limited in how much you can give each campaign, which is a farce, because then you get a hundred million.
[53:19] It seems to me that you've got a rule that no individual can contribute more than so much over a given period of time.
[53:25] No single individual can contribute to those campaigns more than $10,000 a two-year period or whatever figure you want.
[53:32] It's not like that any amount contributed over $100 more has to be done by checking money or not by cash.
[53:37] I mean, little things like that, which may or may not be
[53:48] Now, cash contributions and all the committees you can form, the rules make no sense at all.
[54:00] That's the last step.
[54:01] Uh, well, uh... Well, anyway, Bill, you're getting out of town at a good time.
[54:04] Well, don't worry.
[54:05] We're going to survive.
[54:06] We're going to win.
[54:08] Well, it's fair.
[54:08] These things will pass, I predict.
[54:10] I'm not following up, but, uh... One thing I don't see how the committee is going to hold hearings on...
[54:20] uh...
[54:47] The government is trying to encourage us to press the low key.
[54:54] It's been a little winter lately.
[54:56] The key is still open.
[54:57] It's better, but I think we're in a tough spot.
[55:01] Yeah, okay.
[55:02] Well, we don't have a hard time because it's a practical day.
[55:13] It's a practical day, but...