Conversation 916-019

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No, because I was told he said there's no problem.

I don't know.

My concern is how to deal with the implications of each of these.

See, I don't worry about the facts in this.

I worry about the implications in each one.

Because that's what they write.

They don't pay any attention to the facts.

The implication of there even being such a meaning poses the problem, obviously.

But it's a perfectly rationalized problem.

What the hell?

Look, why can't the FBI?

We were told.

I was told by me.

that the FBI was convinced for months that this was a CIA operation.

And so we were trying to find out.

And that was one of the points we were wondering.

Because if it was a CIA operation, that is another factor.

Or if there were CIA embellishments to it, which was another possibility.

And by the way, all the implications of the baggers were the implications

Don't help, but he helps me.

Can I have those?

I should be.

That's our opinion.

No, it doesn't.

It's a different thing.

This isn't a presidential paper.

This is an FBI report.

Correct, the FBI report.

That's how Mark felt since the FBI report was out by the Trump team.

Well, he's the guy that's done, is doing all the leaking now.

We finally, this man is finally going to come out, you know.

Has he confirmed it yet?

Well, basically, yes.

Perfect.

Okay, because we...

the fact that there was this, this earlier booking of Ellsworth, that doesn't check as his normal, I believe this is a magazine, I don't understand what you're saying.

Nevertheless, this was God's.

I mean, he is trying to, I don't know, butter his own bread.

He's probably gonna kill Sullivan.

We got Sullivan coming in for a reason.

Sullivan will be good winners.

He says he's Sullivan's rock.

let me tell you

These are unrelated things, really.

When croak's operation, they tie that into water, they could have a fucking thing to do with water.

But neither did Vesco.

Neither did Vesco.

But here was poor Mitchell.

Spence, isn't that a crime?

That one, I am just a kind of watch speculator.

I just have the best of both worlds.

Spence is being had now.

Had by whom?

Mitchell.

But if he is, he'll get killed.

And they tear you up.

everybody's taking pictures and everybody in the gallery is hearing it.

And there's nobody there on your side, and your accusers aren't there.

You don't know what you're being accused of.

Let us be sure that John, and anything that he says, let us be sure that John, not only his case, but particularly our case, would be terrible, terrible, jeopardized, whatever is in this income, and indicated.

We never talked about a fake cover with the CIA.

We never told Pat Gray.

We frankly did not know.

And that it did pose an interest.

I was thinking of the pen and paper stuff, which is right.

And I was concerned about it.

So I suggested that you meet with Helms and Walters, right?

Yeah.

You met with Helms and Walters.

And what's your recollection of that meeting?

That's the meeting where John, I think John did all the talking.

And he laid out the problem.

Well, he laid out the theory that had been developed or erased

I would guess that he said that the FBI apparently has a feeling that there's a CIA factor in this or that the CIA is involved in this.

If there are problems here that are going to unravel CIA stuff,

Has gone to those and it's been damaging that it has.

That's right.

That it's gotten into decent.

It's got to grow in the elsewhere case.

That's right.

For one time.

Even though the CIA was running that number so.

Incidentally, you've got a strange thing there with Bob Cushman too.

We saw something here when we were walking over at Bazaar's.

And he says Cushman today

I'll be.

I didn't make that call.

And Bob said, well, somebody from the White House did.

I thought it was you, but it was you or Dean or somebody who called me.

And that was the way that was left.

And then John said, why would I remember?

Well, at one point they were saying they'd be uncalled and said, you're open once this is given to me or something like that.

And that could very well happen without her even knowing it.

That's a problem we've got here in all of this.

And it's a problem I'm sure is going to come on me when I get into this.

It's where a lot of people are going to say, well, I was told more than one of this done.

Or I was told the first one.

Yeah.

All right.

Yeah.

I was only interested in the one that had to do with, uh, you know, the

No, sir.

I didn't know.

Yeah.

because if the CIA is involved, or the CIA people are involved, we don't want the CIA to be pulled in because this water is money.

later on Helms told me this is a very cryptic comment after a meeting.

He says, I checked this whole Watergate thing and the CIA has no problem.

Period.

That was months later.

That's what that is, basically.

to get the hell off the trails like this with the CIA.

That was not... No, no, no, no, no.

And that's not the connotation of that meeting.

But the subsequent discussions with Dean are very clearly that.

Does Dean imply that he's acting in anybody's else's... No.

He does not?

No.

And Walters is very strong on that.

Because I don't think that I had any knowledge that Walters...

You ought to look at them, Bob.

That's the best way to do it.

You need to get a feel for it.

Well, I don't think he...

Does he need to see the reading?

Is the reading almost true?

I'd rather not.

I mean, you characterize them.

If they don't get into this, the one I... Well, let me give you this.

Hearsay from Gray.

Hearsay from Gray?

Hearsay from Gray to Walters.

To the effect of that?

The effect that he had called you.

That's right.

No, no, no, no.

I called him.

I told you about that call.

Yes.

And he expressed his concern about it.

And I told him.

I told him to go ahead and carry on with the investigation.

And the hearsay carried that out.

It didn't end or not.

Is the one there on the meeting with Nelson?

See, Greg can't claim now that he was restricted in his investigation, because when I talked to him and I called him on that hijacker thing, he said, I think some of your boys are close with him.

I don't know whether Grace said it or not.

We've got to find that out.

He testified yesterday

Well, I can't believe Greg, good God Almighty, after what the hell I went through for that poor guy was on the bench, would ever misrepresent what I said to him.

He raised a point about this whole CIA crap, and I said, about the investigation, I said, Pat, you've got to go ahead and deal with it.

I didn't know what the hell it was all about.

Yeah.

Director Helms said he had talked to her in a previous statement in Lincoln, Massachusetts, and now he told Gray none of his investigation questions before the project.

Haldeman then stated that I could tell Gray that I had talked to the White House and suggest the investigation not be pushed further.

Now, Haldeman stated that I, Walters, could tell Gray that I, Walters, had talked to the White House and suggest that the investigation not be pushed further.

Gray would be receptive as he was looking for guidance.

I remember that Gray had raised the question here, or we'd been told that Gray had raised the question of how, you know, where was he supposed to push it?

Which directions?

And the question here was not pushing it in the direction of the CIA, not pushing it in the direction that I would uncover Bay of Pigs

Director Zetterge, the agency was unconnected with the matter.

I agreed to talk to Gray's director

Thank you, Director Gray.

While the further investigation of the Watergate affair had not touched any current or ongoing covert projects of the agency, its continuation might lead to some projects.

I recall the FBI and the HCM agreed on this respect.

Bureau of Audit and Interpretation was aware of this, understood what was going to happen.

Its problem was how low-key the matter now was launched.

It said a lot of money was involved in the matter of the check on the Mexican bank for $89,000, named Dahlberg, and it continued.

Gray said this was the most argumentative moment in election years.

I mean, you get one hell of a mess on what it implies, even though what's there is no comment.

Now, well, there's no question we were concerned about this investigation going beyond walking.

Now, what this did is not facilitate justice.

This is great.

I mean, they were, that was Walters and

but did not get into covert operations of the CIA and other covert operations.

I didn't, none of us knew what in the hell they were.

That's basically what the thing is.

Plus, we didn't know, I didn't know any specifics, but I knew there had been this project with Hunt working in the leak business, the cloners operation, and we didn't want to get into that.

And we didn't want to pursue any money.

And Liddy asked Eric Baldwin here.

They arrested him.

They had him there.

They had him on the bank.

Now, maybe they have him here.

You see, Worlers, in his discussions with Greg, keeps hitting upon the fact that some middle-level White House guy, he's referring, not by name, to Dean, is constantly...

trying to involve the White House in things that will involve the president.

And the emphasis on that and all that Walters would testify to would be that Dean was the monkey here in the mastermind, and two, that in his discussions with Dean, he could never get any authority for what Dean was asking him to do.

It just absolutely varies.

I don't believe I had any knowledge from Dean that he was dealing with Walters at all.

I thought the only contact with the CIA, and I knew, as you were calling me racist, I remember immediately meeting with Walters now.

Is it 28 June, meeting with Dean?

27 June, meeting with Dean.

That's all after our meeting.

What does that all say, huh?

to Helms and found that he had told Dean that he was not going to let Hunt continue with any operations at the agency and that there was no...

He got arrested, Paul.

Or maybe Hunt had been arrested by then.

See, Hunt wasn't arrested until later.

Never he was loose for a long time.

So this may have been when we were concerned about getting Hunt arrested and all that.

Oh, really?

No.

I didn't know that.

I thought he was caught.

His name was in somebody's book.

He wasn't there.

Oh, I see.

Wasn't it Al?

I don't know.

I don't think he was.

Sir, hello.

Well, Al was the detective.

The implication of this, if you look, if you read the men's column, is that...

No, the originals, he's about to deliver.

Then we have them to be able to claim executive privilege.

We couldn't if he had had them out there.

He's going to say that he brought them over to the council.

You do, but again, it's strength.

Now, of course, they can't break into the CIA, but it's much safer to have them here because... No, no, no.

I know we want them here, but my point is, I'm just wondering, are there copies of these bouncing around sometimes?

He said no.

He said, actually, these are his personal men.

Now, Schlesinger has seen them.

And Colby, I see.

Schlesinger ordered him this morning to deliver them to Elliot Richardson and to me, copies to each.

Thank God he stopped here first.

Yeah.

So he didn't deliver them to Elliot?

And I called Schlesinger and said, A, he shouldn't because Elliot is not the Attorney General.

That's right.

And B, that we are assessing these for...

National Security.

And what we should do later today.

And you finished your coordination with Bazar, so he's comfortable.

I guess that's what's needed at the end of the day.

You should, so I just wanted to be sure that the... Well, tell him he's got to keep Colby.

Colby's in the name of things.

He's got to get lined up on this, too.

How do we do that?

Well, they...

They have no...

that's the only thing we can do that's right that's why i'm going to get them up get the original that's why i say the point of being boring raising this privilege thing all the time is just that we can explain all those things and we can probably look probably it's a good test

This way, it'd be damaging.

If you took one government's approach and put all that out, we could wade through it, and in four or five years, we could get it untangled.

Because in the meantime, you couldn't survive it.

It'd be damaging now because of the sequence of time.

First, you have a big high-level media, like Helms and Waller.

And then suddenly, these contacts start with Dean, who's really a bad guy.

And then he would let us say that he was ordered to do it.

Which is another question.

I'll say that anyway.

and what Walters will be able to confirm.

Well, I'll have Bazar call Colby and tell him that we are holding these net cons here.

Yes, they were holding these net cons because they do involve national security and that we have a flat rule that we can't bring over on.

How can he break there and say, we don't break on this?

Because this is the Ellsberg trial, and it had nothing to do with the case.

It's a document which the judge has requested.

Right, right, right.

Now, suppose, now let's come again to the Watergate trial.

They request documents that they think it has to do with the Watergate trial.

I'm just trying to think about it.

Well, there we go with what we've handled all along.

It's an objective and selective judgment on the part of the president.

And it can be made totally selectively.

It can be made paper by paper.

Obviously, you weaken your case every time you let the bar down at all.

You make it harder to keep it up in the national budget.

is that we do give them a principle

Miami Warlords go over and say, I'm ready to testify.

Brain is his diary log, which he uses in his testimony.

He says that he doesn't, and no one knows about this except Sluss and Miracle and his secretary, who typed them, who's been with him for all through Paris and everything else.

They won't know about it, and they probably won't even ask about it.

They'll say, do you have a written record?

He'll say, yes, I use my diary, and I make some notes.

And, uh,

That's it.

Then if they really bore in, it would be the last case that he would say, yes, I gave him to the lawyer to be sure that there were other national security matters discussed in those notes.

You gave it to the lawyer?

I gave it to the counsel in the White House because there were some very important national securities.

There were important activities that were in the notes.

Yeah, yeah.

It must have been.

I don't know.

I think that was done by Tom in order to get it covered.

No, I said that.

In order to get it covered to prove that everything he did was CIA taken or something like that.

That's right.

Well, Hugh Gutman said it's very important for all the people around here.

Bazaar has got to realize.

Now, he's just read this paper because he also talked to Walters.

a cover-up on the part of the, that first paragraph where it says the president told Paul to get the CIA to, what did it say?

To talk to the FBI about not pursuing this murder or something like that.

But Bizarre understands that the purpose of that talk had nothing to do with not pursuing the Watergate murder.

It had to do with not getting into the national security aspect, sir.

Now, we don't, Bizarre is, uh,

It's all in with them.

That's it.

And that's our biggest problem in this case.

Every time, every event, it's been the goddamn implications.

You never get a chance to give the facts.

And then they live on the implications.

They blindly state them.

It's a sick part of that.

But you see, when Brizard sat there and heard Walton tell me what he was testifying,

gray gray gray gray gray gray gray gray

I thought he said that you had discussed this with him and you told him to go on with the investigation.

That is someplace in there, I know.

I saw it yesterday.

I think that came from Grayton.

Yeah, but that's, yeah, that's right.

I don't know whether you told the truth, but if you did, it may have, I don't know if it's true or not, my recollection may be wrong, but I am sure it was such a cursory conversation that I said, go ahead and do it.

Yeah, yes, you can do it.

I think there isn't any question about it.

What does it say here?

This is very good.

This is good.

Gray had replied that the case could not be covered up.

We were talking about this.

Any attempt to involve the FBI or the CIA in this case could only prove a mortal wound and would achieve nothing.

The president said, then I should get rid of whoever is involved, no matter who I am.

Gray replied that that was his recommendation.

The president then asked what I thought, and Gray said...

But my views were the same as his.

The President took it well and thanked Gray.

Now, whose memorandum is that?

Walter's.

Now, can we get Walter's to say it then?

Yes.

It's your sentence.

I know.

No, Gray's sentence.

Yeah, I mean, Gray's.

I never doubted your role, sir, for a minute.

The only thing that bothers me, really, about the whole thing is that there are so many goddamn creeps around here that are walking around, uh, always seeking to worship.

It's all you and them.

And I'm convinced we're gonna knock this ball right out of your face.

Would you please mark that for Bazaar so he sees that point?

Would you like to go over it?

Or has he seen it?

Or do you think Bazaar needs to see such things?

I am not worried about Bazaar.

Well, I don't care about his worries.

I want him to believe.

Oh, sure, it'll make people involved, but not involved.

And watch the press on.

Be careful that we don't start hanging people by any window and stuff.

That we would worry about.

And be careful that we don't get swapped over into what these people were doing in National Security.

Look at this kind of statement from Walters.

I agree that, in my view, the president should be protected from his self-appointed protectors, he's talking about Dean, who would harm him while trying to cover up their own mistakes.

You sure he's not talking about our own mistakes?

Because I'm not so sure that he didn't feel that we were acting without authority over me back then.

Right.

I don't know.

Well, naturally, contacts have been... See, the jury meeting was... Waller will not say anything about her jury meeting.

No.

You were early.

Look, as Waller is, there's no problem there.

get over it.

And incidentally, uh, Walters, I want him to tell Richardson.

And, uh, can't Walters talk to Richardson and talk to Colby and to and Schlesinger?

Gosh, I don't want Colby and Schlesinger to have any doubts on this.

How about those two?

I come up with a point and two men at the highest positions in this government and then having read this, have they read these things?

No, I don't think these

And I've talked to Walter, and I don't know how closely they've read him, but they've talked to Walter, and I'm just confident that it's not you that there's any concern about.

It's a fact.

They know the dean is up.

The dean?

I know.

They also know the first member and the president.

The president said let's live in it or something.

It would be inconceivable with me.

I talk to Schlesinger every day, twice, three, four times a day.

No, I don't know.

After saving these memorandums, he had such a consumption.

I saw him some time ago, for some reason.

Some time ago, yeah.

As a matter of fact, he's the one that, when Walrus came out yesterday, and Gray stepped in, and he brought Walrus back.

They're bringing Helms back, too, right?

Oh, are they?

That's what I was concerned about.

That's what Helms would say.

Helms would be capable of putting a twist on it, I suppose.

But when I don't put it, Helms may want it.

Helms doesn't have any interest in putting it.

But for some reason, Helms can't be malicious to put a bad twist on it.

If he puts it, it's true.

I don't think Helms is a professor.

I don't want to do anything to harm the president.

Because he knows damn well that I didn't...

Well, you treated him very decently, and he felt that, and he told me that a number of times, how much he appreciated the way the whole thing was handled.

Right, right.

Well, Helms was in the meeting, but that meeting was the one where they discussed the whole thing, and Helms said the CIA was not involved.

Right.

But I had asked him, he said, clear from that M-Con, that I had asked and directed that they get together with him for the purpose of saying what this...

Good.

They really can't copy this whole thing up.

And did it because of their, uh, this whole thing.

And I was wondering whether this, when I read about the Mexican bank, I thought there must be a CIA involved in that.

Well, we got, uh, I think this is...

I think it's perfectly proper for me.

Yeah, I think so.

And I'd say, now, look here.

I just want you to know we were trying to get at the bottom here.

And I don't think that's perfectly all right.

Use it back here.

Well, I'd better go check.

I'm sorry, I'm not at the bottom.

We didn't order the CIA.

Then he'd start to operate and go into business on his own.

Yeah.

Or do you agree?

I think that must be it, because I don't see what else we can do.

That's what all the trails lead to now.

And if that's the case, they'll find it out.

I mean, there's enough, you know, there's so many types.

You know, as a matter of fact, I'm going to go to this one.

I guess I'm going to go to the other one.

I don't think so.

I think they see one of the first things dropping.

I think this is what it's doing.

If you were concerned about this, what are they looking at?

whoever it is right at the top.

He can't say on the basis of that, Walters could be a star witness in this, and that's got to leak out.

Very good, sir.

Well, I don't feel it, but I don't care what comes up on me.

I said that Dan here broke my heart and invited me for an original stance.

He's going to run for president.

The other thing is that somewhere they're going to take...

I'm afraid John has no idea now, but I still think on turning 40, he's going to have to pay more a year for the money.

And I don't think he's going to be in any danger when he's going to have surgery.

I don't think he's going to have surgery.

What I'm going to think is that what really is my sort of my turning point is sort of finally faced up to the fact that

There is nothing else to do.

I don't give a damn what happens here, but fight this through to the finish.

I mean, they're not after the ship.

They're not after you.

They're not after, as I said, on it.

They're not after John Mitchell.

They're not after you, John.

It was made a national hero, and some of it off in a mess trial.

New York Times gets a Pulitzer Prize for stealing rockets.

Bob, and then it must be Tristan, for trying to get at us in big heaps.

What in the name of God did you come to?

That's the side where we have eternity, but we've got to...

right now, gotta get it.

Two different things there, I'm sure.

What are they?

You know, one's on this.

And, uh... Well, one's on the go, the other one's on that.

You want to talk to me about all of them?

I don't want to give you the leniency, but that was the recommendation of the Department of Justice, and everybody else, you know, there was no goddamn question on that.

I think Dean has said something on that.

Good.

Glad to get none of that.

So, then I'm going to subpoena to a period

So in the matter of murder, the plan to murder

Okay, fine.

I'll see if you don't need me.

Okay, go ahead.

Keep the faith.

I promise, God.

Don't worry.

when you get to the material, because he's got it.

on this, and I think that we might very well consider, very well consider, uh, I mean, uh, because of the, you know, that, because there's only one memorandum in there.

That makes sense, is give that to the damn, say, department, and give it to the department, and say, this is the National Security, but here it is.

So, you know, it is long before the Pentagon thing, and it resulted in the discharge of the employees involved.

Well, this is relief from duties.

Yeah, he was transferred.

Yeah, he was transferred away from that post and the result.

So I that's why I'm not concerned about that.

That's part of her.

Okay, here's the thing.

Here's the thing there.

They they have

The slander is called war, isn't it, Chris?

possible CIB cover and or involvement in this matter.

The question was raised, was there any?

At least that's what I was told by now.

Sorry.

I said, great, I attended before.

Here's how the story pulls out now.

Apparently, Waller's had several men cons that he has made.

Fortunately, he's a loyal follower and has brought them back.

He's there in the White House at the present time, including the men con of beating our homes and grabbing our things.

because of a possible CIA embarrassment and or involvement.

Now is that the main thing I want to tell you, and I want to talk to you about, is this, so to be sure, that when, as in when you and John will be asked about it, if you are, that you will, that John, who I'm concerned about you, will be on track in terms of what the story really is.

The story is that

and say, I can't reveal it.

But he has his background, his photographic background, which he will use to the extent that is necessary.

Walters is going to say that what happened was that he met here and that he was asked to talk to her anyway.

Thank you.

The problem is that in the, and I'm not sure that he will be asking about it, but you know what I mean, because basically he's, Walters is, well, he's so, but the fighting, what he did on Hamilton,

I forget why, but Bay of Bigs came into this.

And there was a concern, making the point to Helms, that if this, that those people are drawn out.

And see, we had a concern at that time.

If you don't get Hunt and Liddy and, well, Liddy, not so much, but Hunt, they're all going to be in the keep of this.

But John, Bob, just to be sure that you and John thought exactly that way, particularly with John and Liddy.

You know what I'm saying?

Yeah.

The thing I wonder is if we ought to look at, one of us, if we ought to look at that, what would that be?

Because it would be accurate.

It would be accurate.

Let me tell you what he is going to do.

Some of it, he says, well, I'll look at it.

I'll look at some of it.

And how, whether he would distort that in some way.

Because that meeting was held against the rest of our country.

It was so characterized.

and said, well, oh, we have no concern about the pay-a-fix, it doesn't matter what comes out or something.

That's the part I remember clearly, is the pay-a-fix.

Well, I remember saying that because CIA people were in this, to get them in, that's how long you should take them.

But that doesn't bother me.

The only thing that would bother me is if Walters were told to go over to Gray and say, look, cool your investigation.

In fact, here's the problem.

Here's the problem with M-Cons, I understand.

call you but it does potentially involve john according to according to al and al should not talk about it for the reason that it makes it appear it could make it appear that john was trying to get walkers to talk to gray to basically make it appear more like that it was more of an actual

Which is.

on a selective basis on a selective basis I'd rather think I mean I'm just intrigued with the idea of letting it out there

And then it was shifted to me.

Yeah, I know.

Because then Bob Henry sang.

And Hoover didn't want to talk to anybody.

Remember, he said, I don't want to talk to anybody else.

Finally talked to you.

And then eventually to John.

Right?

Yeah.

And that, we're going to fight for that.

We're going to be on the offensive on it.

Let me tell you, I'm not pessimistic about this one.

Good.

I think we should fight for that job.

I don't know if you read the news every day, but there's a

Love it.

off.

First, first, first, first, first, first, first, first, first, first, first,

always frames that by saying I can say that the president had nothing to do with it.

You know what I mean?

But I can say that I'm not as biased as what I am.

Got it?

Because basically, Bob, I think in this place, in this particular case, I think the more, you know, that we talk about it as the thing you talked to me the other night, or you hear what we talked about yesterday, it seems to me that more and more in

and uh

anything I remember really about it.