On May 14, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon, Ronald L. Ziegler, Alexander M. Haig, Jr., and Leonard Garment met in the Oval Office of the White House from 6:28 pm to 7:27 pm. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 917-044 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
All right.
Glass of water?
I got it.
I, uh, I hear you.
Let's get it to the point.
How ridiculous.
Well, I have Len, Len Garman.
Unbelievable, I am.
I have Len Garman.
Send it to Herb.
Well, Herb and I are on the same page.
That's what we're doing.
The point with Jesus is one night I don't have his money.
The Jones and Grange store, at the point, they were all money.
This is a lot of time.
Can you hear me?
I want to take this for their sake.
I said it's what I said.
Who do you think they got this from?
Who do you think they got this from?
Who do you think they got this from?
Who do you think they got this from?
Who do you think they got this from?
I don't know what other day.
The documents the judge still has not turned loose.
Our man is staying right with him.
Doesn't know what they are.
Doesn't know what they are, but we have a security expert named Bartholomew there.
He'll look at the documents.
Our employee will be, they must be sealed.
And we'll know what's in them until Bartholomew's reading.
And I think we'll be sustained on them.
Why?
We haven't been staying on one, shall we?
Who rules the sentence?
The judge?
The judge.
I don't think he knows.
If it comes to politics, it's just, there's a high risk of security right now.
Security is one thing, but we can't...
Yes, my guess is that it is.
What do you think, Ron?
Absolutely.
I think it's his report, which is, he himself may have classified it.
No.
He wouldn't even know the term commons, I don't think.
No.
See, that's a very common term, but to tell him it's not in the Justice Department.
Then how does that get in?
How do you provide an intent that that term's right?
Where do we get that term?
Legitimately, that's the way it was described by the judge, although he hadn't reviewed it.
He looked at the classification.
Is there any way the funds could have passed by the doctor that way?
Well, he was here.
He would come to see us.
That's the only thing I can guess wrong.
There might be some Huntscraft in there.
Although, I don't know.
I just don't know what it is.
I don't know what it is.
Well, I don't know.
We could even be concerned about Huntscraft.
Well, I don't.
Suppose there is.
Goddamn, we ordered a security thing, and Hunt did things.
He did, but at least he didn't do any other breaking into something that cut aside Kyler's hopes, as far as we know.
Yeah.
You know, we, uh, we know we have a problem with Richardson.
Is that right?
Does he want to resign?
No.
He, uh, he, uh, made public in the hearing today, uh, his hearings, uh, the names of four people we don't have yet.
But he also said that White House aides called him and suggested a couple of others would return today.
Well, now, in fairness, I'm not taking up permissions.
I know you saw that on the report.
I read the wire, but I just... What Richardson did in response to a question, I mean, I just know, excuse me, just so you put it in the tone, we get in the tone.
Richardson, in response to a question, said, were there any suggestions made from the White House?
He said, this is a total independent, I've been given a free hand type thing.
And then he went on to say that there were some names that were suggested by the White House, but they were not included on the final list.
So it's not because they came from the White House, he said, but because they did not fit the criteria as it was broken down.
That's just a, that's just a small thing.
Let me give you a minute.
It's a hog on ice.
I didn't like the business of the White House, that's all, but everybody else is doing it for the moment.
I brought it out.
Thanks, sir.
All right, fine.
Let's get it confirmed if we can.
Yeah, we got it.
Yeah, that's right.
We've got it confirmed.
All right, wait a minute.
The report we've gotten from Peterson is that they are, tonight, is that they are very far from investments.
that he can't visualize indictments before the 30th of May.
And then all of the testimonies conflicted.
One witness confronted me with the other.
And he really had nothing to even make indictments on.
Why haven't they heard these?
Do we know what the story is there?
There's no trying to get any minutes out, but they need to make their case as I did.
I don't know what the problem there is.
I hope it's not as true as it probably is, but we got confused for a moment or two.
Our guys got a lot of abuse from this, thank God.
And as a matter of fact, they're pretty close, aren't they?
But he has been reluctant to talk to them now.
He just feels like this.
Yeah.
Well, they should be reluctant to talk, but he just called them and said, we just want to go for our own guidance.
In other words, the idea that they might indict Mitchell and McGruder this week has proved to be false and false.
Well, that's fine.
Just go on.
That's going to be one hell of a year.
Okay.
We've got a problem here.
Fitch has just run in and I think we better give him some guidance on it.
Apparently Bob Holt called Schreiber in Hawaii about doing the foundation.
Yeah, he told me about it.
In New York, we know.
They both in turn very rightly called Fitch.
Yeah.
He said that this would be very, very bad in the case of
He said he was very concerned about it.
Well, hell, I understood that they were for it.
Yeah, yeah.
But they don't endorse it.
Not at this time.
Just say right now that now you have to handle this with all of them.
Just say that we have got to, don't tell them to finish, but that Firestone and so forth are doing a little checking things, that this would not be the right thing to do.
The guys need the money.
I wish to Christ I could give them some money, but I have to give some money to buy it.
I had not a gym in 73, which is when they were supposed to join.
It's too soon.
They can do it in October.
Well, there's a way to get that done now.
There are enough people floating around.
Well, you see, the problem is... See what I mean?
See?
And I said, fine, Bob, sorry, but at least I will run the top-ten competition.
You see?
Nobody asked me.
The problem is, this whole thing is just wracked with the situations where people don't level with Bob and John, and very few people are leveling with anyone else.
The concerns are it's a tacky open foundation.
All right, all right, all right.
Point this out.
They've checked it out.
It's a tacky open foundation.
We can't do that at this time.
But now can't we do something, though?
Can't those guys out there do something to help these poor veterans?
That's where it has to be done.
That's perfectly legal.
Somebody ought to retain John Erickson.
I don't want anything.
John Erickson.
We've got to get somebody totally outside this thing.
It's just a good project with Peter Flanagan to work on.
Yes, but not with his age.
Yeah, that's true.
Well, I have to try for one of those guys to do it.
out there in California.
That's the trouble.
I don't...
I mean, I've got, uh...
I want to get landmarks in there.
I can't get Ratatouille and Rebosa with the goddamn thing.
That puts the president in the middle of it.
But you want to stay after... Yeah, there must be a way.
Well, listen, can we talk then to Peter Flanagan and say, well, he tried this greatly to say that some... some aid is given to him?
That's perfectly legal.
We're not obstructing justice.
We're not trying to get them to shut up.
They're both hireable.
They're both people that could be retained to do work.
Or any other possibility is to have somebody set up a defense spot.
That looks a little...
Just say that they have to wait until they get past the abiding period.
Just put it that way.
That we've got that problem.
You know, it's going to be hard for Bob.
It's going to be hard for them.
And it's going to be done in the other situation.
But God damn it, we've got to... God isn't going to help them.
Now, take Eason Rickardson.
I know I've had him, but Rickardson should have been quite honest about it for Christ's sake.
I didn't suggest it to the damn judge.
No, he didn't say it.
No, you weren't right.
Of course, I didn't tell him your name.
But he didn't suggest it for us.
You just said that you thought it was a better idea.
Well, God damn it.
Why didn't he say that?
Well, he's such a swearer.
Screw him.
It doesn't make any difference.
He didn't take the mission.
That's great.
Who's he got?
Who's he got?
Do I have to?
I think the entire order's on there.
Warren Christopher.
Oh, Jesus Christ.
That's fine.
That brown.
All right, what else you got?
Well, we've got the AA problem with the testimony.
What he did, apparently, was...
He twisted it in a way that was bad for Bob and John.
It was bad for the president, too.
I mean, I'd be coming in here now just to look after the president.
I mean, I'd love to do that for other people, but Jesus Christ, I think the goddamn CIA thing, I mean, that was a, you know, I suggested they got a woman to find out what the crimes were.
What were these assholes?
They all worked for the CIA.
They were in this butter thing, you know?
That's why they got into it.
Why was it bad for them?
Well, the efforts, uh... Was it public possession?
No, but a sign came out afterwards and popped off that he now saw that all the women out there were involved in this thing.
He was surprised.
He was surprised.
but made no reference to the president, and indeed, in the worse of the story, indicated that there was no evidence or indication of the president.
And maybe that should have been signed by Harry Walker, and he made the statement of being here in the room.
He said, well, let's take a look at that.
All right.
Signed.
That's good.
That's it.
What I'm trying to describe is a total fabrication of that, and it's ever so retentive.
I don't.
Is somebody going to get that percentage?
What's the matter with that asshole Howard Baker?
He's going to get it.
He's going to get the check.
Len Darman has been on the phone.
Darman?
Goddamn it.
He's never accomplished anything.
Yes, sir.
He's on the phone with these people, and he is being very firm with them that they hold the responsibility that they must put out the correction and take responsibility for the sabotage.
Now, this is what I'm understanding.
I think John's a fucking interesting for stealing money for Christ sakes.
Well, that's gotta be getting awful hard now that it's that close to the bar.
We gotta think about this as the safety for me.
Well, you really- I wonder if it is, but what the hell, I think you ought to go out to the press room.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no
Why is it now?
Everybody attacks the president.
Who the hell invented him today?
Except Zickler.
Now that's wrong.
No, no.
Let me do it for you.
Yeah, I'm just checking to see if the police got through there.
I think we ought to leave it off for the state.
Just lay it out.
And then we ought to take it home.
and say this is the responsibility that has characterized the whole press treatment, that circuit theory of the situation.
God damn it, this one is, well, in a way, it's something.
In a way, it's something.
Really, this one, we can knock right over the fence.
But there's a goddamn sentence running around on this whole subject, because I read this wrong.
When did you say he was hard on all of it earlier with that Simon version?
You know, I talk to walkers.
Why did you suppose he was hard on all of it?
Well, I said, goddamn, it's not what he rehearsed, quite frankly, three times with Bizarre and myself.
And he said, well, he just asked the question, and I had to answer the one that was on your own.
I think that he left them with the impression that both Bob and John had ordered him, despite Young's assurances to them that the CIA was not involved, to go over to Gray and imply that the CIA was involved.
So that Gray would tone down and limit the investigation.
All right.
Now, did he do that?
He didn't do that with Gray, did he?
Yes, he did.
He went over and he did.
And then Gray, he replied to him, what Dick Helms told me yesterday, that there was no CIA involved.
Walters said, well, I'm going to go back and look into it, but we are concerned especially about the Mexican, some Mexican funds.
All right.
So Helms did go back, discussed it with, I mean, Walters went back, discussed it with Helms, looked into it, and the agency returned to Gray the next day and said, that is right.
There is no CIA problem.
Told?
Gray.
Gray, okay.
And then?
In other words, within one day, 20 more hours, he said there was no CIA involvement.
So he did not, if he was ordered by... You see, the point is, God damn it, Walker's statement doesn't matter.
If Haldeman and Earl and Frank, as I said, were going to do that, they wouldn't have done it, but they don't say it there.
No question about it.
I think that Walker is a misconstrued.
Well, this is what the problem is.
Every son of a bitch is a self-server.
This is his man, honestly, clearly.
it's uh oh yeah lynn says he's i pulled lynn off the phone he's talking to frank thompson and he said if they can't if they won't issue a statement then they will be charged with every kangaroo court phraseology that there is now
We'll issue a statement tomorrow.
We've got to issue a statement and read off that something.
And if they don't do something, we'll just take that committee on.
I'll tell you.
Or do you want to issue a statement about our property that we haven't issued before?
Not necessarily about the trust.
I don't want to put up with this about the house.
We're going to have to.
I told them to give us two statements.
I said, I want you to absolutely no more, no further than where we were before.
That's nobody's goddamn business.
Listen, I'm not going to put out the fact that my friend, two of my friends, have frankly put out the money for the 15 acres next to that goddamn house.
Because they're doing it for the foundation.
I agree with that.
DeMarco's putting something together because there is apparently on file at the Orange County Land Office a recent purchase of 15 acres or something.
And this is where the confusion comes.
We've never addressed that.
A recent purchase of 15 acres?
By me?
No, sir.
Just by someone.
Which is DeMarco's information.
Well, he doesn't mean our people.
He means that, well, what the hell does a 15-acre purchase have to do with our situation?
I think he's putting the facts together on it.
In other words, somebody bought 15 acres.
I don't know anybody that bought 15 acres.
This DeMarco, this DeMarco mean, what I meant is I'm trying to get at, what's the 15 acres got to do with it?
We don't want to be, I don't want to be part of it.
I haven't had it in my whole life at all.
What's he thinking?
I'm serious, I don't know.
He's putting together the whole facts on the matter, and...
He was shooting off the covers because, when we talked to him, because he didn't have spies.
What he gave out was fairly clear.
The whole package was 1.4 million.
Yeah.
That's right.
That was right.
And they said, there's no other acres involved.
There's eight other acres in San Romano that people have bought.
Got something else.
I just don't know what the hell they may have bought.
But my point is, I know nothing.
I have no interest in anything except that four and a half thing.
Damn it.
Whatever beneficial interest there is in that damn truck.
We'll have it with the price some day we get back.
But what do you think?
So DeMarco says it's another 15 days?
No, no, no, no.
There is a story running, or part of the story is, it's a confused story which DeMarco is putting into perspective so that we can issue, again, a total recap of what we said before.
That's all there is to it.
Well, that's what I'd like to do, just first off, pretty afterward, say the president's put it off the way it was.
The president almost sold it such and such a bag.
And the balance is held in trust.
It's what he's done.
Held in trust.
Yet it's held in trust for what purpose?
The purpose to be determined after the next recommendation is sent.
And that's it.
And that is the damn truth.
In fact, curiously, they were thinking the other day, Ron, they were thinking, you know, the whole goddamn thing is to bring out the son of a bitch in cemeteries.
And they said, maybe we'll put it here.
Or maybe we put it in your Belinda.
You know what I mean?
That's what they're holding that damn property for.
Well, the fact is that there's absolutely no...
This is absolutely false suspicion.
Sorry, I'm surprised the department can't get...
He's talking to Thompson now.
And Dash.
Trying to get them to be safe now.
So, what do you think Walters did?
Walters deliberately...
I don't think, not that I really know, sir.
I think, yes, I think it's that bad that he subjectively felt that he was under pressure to do that.
Did he at least take the occasion to make the points?
Did he get in the box and name first?
Very much.
Did he crack name?
He thinks he said he called me.
Did he defend the president?
Very much so.
He called me and it went very well.
How did he defend the president?
No knowledge.
No knowledge at all.
It was very evident to him that there was no president at all.
No indication of that in the trial.
But you remember, his men come and show that not only did D tell us to try and get the things, and he said, no, because I don't have any from the White House, right?
See, one of the trouble is, these bastards get in here and they take a box out of all of them around Christ.
One thing after another, he's
He was examined this afternoon by the committee, committee council.
Yeah.
I don't know why he's going to see the U.S. Attorney General.
I don't know.
Well, they're all in a hurry to defend themselves pretty well, though, and I think, let's face it, it's tough.
But they can simply say we were misunderstood when we were sitting around and there was this thing.
That was our purpose.
You see, our problem, what we're trying to assess right now, and we're assessing it to the committee,
The services committee did the impression that he had, and if so, it may be necessary for Bob or John to walk there.
To get that damn thing straight, we can't have those men sitting around with the wrong impression, if they disagree with that impression.
Bob or John would.
Oh, you're having somebody check the archives.
you know, maybe the best thing to do.
We can't leave on it yet.
Well, let's start with a few things here.
I'm waiting to hear some of your about them.
On the financial side, we've got to give Bob the dad with the news.
There we go.
On the foundation, just don't say that you need to leave.
Just say, try to recall that you got word from the coach that they feel that you can do it now because of the fact that it's a tax foundation or something like that.
And then I guess you just gotta say, what does he suggest?
I think Peter Flanagan can do something.
Do you think so?
He's got his hands shut.
I think someone like Flanagan should.
I just don't know who, but I'm a loss.
I don't like to leave these guys.
Second point is that on Walters, I guess you can't talk to him.
And on Walters, he knows the guy's name.
Sure, you'll just tell him what he is on.
You know he's done well.
He can't be telling like that.
He's spread his foot.
What you see is his concern.
Did they ask him for his papers?
They did not at the hearing.
But the fellow from the committee did.
And what did he say?
He said, yeah, we can see those.
Yeah.
He said, but they contain a great deal of sensitive national security matters.
So I took them to the council before they had us.
And I said, how was the reaction to that?
And he said, fine.
And he said, and he said, I'm here to testify completely and fully on everything you pretend.
He said, hey, he's a jury, but not on the matters of the jury.
He knows nothing.
And he's got us standing there like a rock.
His nose must never be available.
Right.
Thank God we have him.
And I said, I double-checked again.
I said, now, to what degree?
has Helms gone and read your notes?
Could he possibly have a copy of them?
He said, no.
He said, he hardly read them.
He said, Colby does not have a copy, but that Colby read them much more carefully.
And I said,
was Colby with you today, and knowing that he was, he said yes, and he made some testimony, but it all involved the psychologist report.
That's what they were really interested in.
He said, so Colby.
Psychologist report.
Yeah.
Psychologist.
A report on Ellsberg.
They had a psychiatric study made on them.
Oh, this is the CIA boat.
That is not our problem.
No.
Thank God.
No, that's not our problem.
But that's what the committee was supposed to do.
And Colby had some comments on that.
All right.
He said he didn't think they got a lead in him as any kind of a witness on the other side.
Colby, on his confirmation, just got to stand firm on this and say that Walters, I know nothing about what Walters said.
He had a better word.
Now, somebody's got to get the helms when he gets in tonight.
Is that being done?
Or is he, when does he get in?
He's due in tonight, and we've got to get in touch with him.
But it's best to have a counsel do it.
Counsel should, yes, correct.
And get something in for him.
And to that, don't get any of them helms.
You know not.
Just tell him that this is the situation and Walters is handling it.
But the particular that he has heard, reminding him that he had the president or members of Congress say, after the NSC meeting, in the Oval Office, who were sitting in those two chairs over there, where he told me, I don't remember how long after this, that there was no CIA involvement in Watergate.
He told me he won't hear.
And I said I was glad to hear that.
We, I've been seeing the records, and it doesn't show the problem.
There's one of those dropped in there.
That's right.
We held the meeting, had the meeting in here.
But he was standing in this spot with us, right?
And we sat in those two chairs.
He'll remember that very clearly.
He'll remember that.
He will remember that I had, when it was back for an NSC meeting on occasion, where he said there was no CIA involved in the water game.
And he doesn't forget it.
I mean, you know, these days, people forget what they want.
It doesn't make any difference.
What does make a difference is what Walters says.
And Walters, you believe, has testified, hopefully, as far as the president, but very unhopefully, as far as a lot of the candidates are.
indicating or implying that Bob and John asked him to go over and set up a CIA cover.
Was that it?
And the dean persisted.
The dean then followed up.
The dean followed up.
And nothing was done.
Nothing was done.
That was the point.
Nothing was done.
I mean, this is one way for Bob and John to be embarrassed, but there's no legal way.
You see, obstruction of justice has got to be, it's got to go further than that.
They'll be embarrassed.
Well, listen, there's also something to be said that the goddamn people would be so confused and tied up and screwed up.
Oh, yeah.
Well, you know, Ron, didn't we make the times to condemn that this, that someone was involved with the CIA in this thing?
Well, from the standpoint that Parker and Hunt were.
That's right.
They used to work for the CIA.
That's right.
And that was reported in the press.
There was something in the press about it, you know, where they screwed around.
Frankly, we just didn't know, did we?
That's really the, God, it's true.
That's, you know, what's really the truth is what is turning the fish, isn't it?
God damn it, we didn't know, Al.
You were around the other ship.
We'd have known when the eventuality brought them down, and I'll learn, and say, Mitch will get the murderous ass out of there, but we didn't know that.
All of us didn't know.
Early on, we didn't know.
Well, they overrided.
It was the last goddamn thing in the world to do.
We'd call Helms over and tell them to...
to cover it up, and Christ's sake, that's good.
Well, what they may have hoped was that because there were CIA people that may, if I'm just trying to piece it together now, that may the CIA involvement would confuse them, you know what I mean?
But Walters checked it out.
He did exactly what he should have.
He went over to see the director.
The director said, told him that Helms had told him there was no involvement, correct?
See, the way Walters said it, he said when he left, one of the members of the committee said,
It's very apparent that there were people trying desperately to keep the president from finding out what they had done.
Who said that?
The reporter said that, yeah.
He said that one of the committee members made that statement.
Well, so what happened?
I don't know whether they should go and testify or not.
The only charge they would have faced up there would be the issue of the CIA and so on.
But we have to see how bad it is.
Where are you taking that from?
I haven't been the better guy to problem with it.
I've had them there before the great jury, there before the committee, and I've had the thought that I might have chosen the committee because of the world around me.
I mean, it just plays it too big.
What do you think, Ron?
Yeah, and the fact of the matter is that there were... Everybody's guessing it.
Everyone's guessing it.
Everyone who's out said earlier is trying to cover themselves.
Except probably... Oh, everyone's trying to cover themselves.
Why do you think so, Shane?
totally understandable.
It's a human reaction.
I'm not saying it's a negative thing.
But I think we've got to keep our eye on the main ball, and that is that a lot of these little men, not referring to all of them, but the McCords and others, are putting, creating an environment and an atmosphere that allowed for this story on the house to run.
You're saying that you would charge the president with anything.
That's right.
Now, we cannot, as I mentioned to you earlier, and I'll talk about this, we can't lose sight of the major goal here, and that is protection and preservation of the presidency.
And that's going to rest, to a great extent, on how many men, right?
Yes.
And we're going to have to
stop getting ourselves to the degree we can, bogged down in this day-to-day flow of things, and keep our eye on the broader picture.
But the problem is in all of this, President, is that we're consuming our day, and I think Al would agree with us, because we don't have, we are operating
begin to lie.
We don't know what our target is.
We don't know what our enemy is.
We don't know...
We've done fairly well.
We haven't had to stand up.
And I certainly think we probably could have done these charges against Bob under these charges.
And we should have done that.
Don't get involved in those.
Don't get involved with somebody's charges.
You're not leaving, are you, Brian?
Absolutely not.
You see, that's just tying your ass to the skyrocket.
You don't know where it's going.
You know where it's going.
And it may not go anywhere, Cedar, because it's just too damn better.
And they'll, they'll get up and say, well, that's a, I mean, look, look, Peterson says we can't have an indictment in June.
They don't, they're not sure they're, they don't believe it.
They don't have it in their own mind.
Now, that says a great deal about our old friend Eve.
You mean that they don't believe her?
Or that they need her?
They really, uh, at least Dean hasn't given them enough to say, God, we should've got Jim here.
You see, they can't have Doug again.
You see, they, they haven't called him before the rancher here.
So basically, there's no way they're exposing that car.
They can give him immunity.
They can get enough from him to indict somebody else.
But I think their problem would be is that they don't believe a lot of them.
You see what I mean?
They're afraid that he's not, what would you say, Ron, not a very good witness.
I wouldn't suspect that.
But they may have paid what he's doing as a effort to convince people that he has something to tell when he really doesn't.
That's probably the strategy of the lawyers.
Even with these papers, it could be that they're trying to tantalize the prosecutors into granting them immunity because he has all of this information and really he has very little that can be substantiated.
Would you say that?
It increasingly seems to get that impression.
That thing in the New York Reporter, John, remember, he didn't have anything.
That was last week, wasn't it?
No.
That was a week ago.
Well, he's been serving under wraps since then.
Why hasn't he been under wraps?
Well, his papers are coming up now, though.
Today, we at least know.
We should find this out tonight.
You think we can?
Well, our man's there.
When they open the box, he's there.
And the judge says he can't be the reason.
I wonder if that's one thing we could maybe take a check on now to see when we expect the dam to leave there.
Yes, sir.
Go ahead.
Give me a reason on it.
And after that, we'll have a little dinner.
I mean, we'll take off for dinner.
I hope you don't mind.
Getting back to your point, I totally agree with Ron.
In other words, we've got to get on with business in the country.
But also, I'm very realistic about this.
And you've got to be realistic, too.
Where are you going to take a hell of a battery?
This is typical of the ship.
And so what?
And we're going to take a lot of attrition in this period.
But they will not destroy us.
Because we will come back.
You want to remember, presidents before have taken care of the batteries, and they come back.
And that's about where we are at the present time.
The only reason people come back, however, is, I think, quite on the matter, is they happen to be right.
In other words, if I had a million dollars of stolen money in that house, or if I had put gambling money in that house, or if I had, you know, faked the CIA thing, or I had, you know, tried to get the defendant's pay off, then that would be a different matter.
But I haven't, you see.
That's the whole point.
That's right.
And there has to be a formula here, which we haven't come upon yet, because the complexity and the convergence of these events, plus the political aspects of all of this, there's got to be a way to deal with it.
I don't know the answer to that yet.
But first of all, the way to deal with it is to move ahead with the business.
That is not the total answer.
No.
Because we have to do something, I think, to move against this attrition.
And moving against the attrition, the worst thing we could do, I think, at this moment, is to fight it.
Start attacking.
But there's got to be a way.
And it's going to come a time here where the country is going to feel and the press is going to
get the point of saying, well, and this is an example today on this house thing.
They didn't believe you when you went out and said that I had a home.
Yes, they did.
I'm sure they did.
They did.
But I'm saying it's coming to a point where everyone is going to think this is going too far with the political elements involved.
And the president and the presidency
is not going to be intimidated or...
In other words, I don't have to speak up.
Yes, well, yes.
Even more than I did at the end of the Republican thing.
But I can't do it every day.
You see, if I knew it every week, as people have said, and I said, look, I'm not building a modern game.
Look, I did it two weeks ago on television.
I did it last week at the Star.
Now what the hell do you want this week?
There may come a time here.
I don't know when, but there may come a time where this is where we've got to get the time to break this down.
There may come a time here to say screw the grand jury and screw the Senate committee hearing.
That's what I mean.
I'm not sure about the grand jury, but I can certainly say the Senate committee hearing.
That's right.
The fact of the matter is, take the Senate investigation.
We know the story there.
It's a lot of documents.
take these other piddly uh charges that have been made and suggestions in innuendo all of these things can be broken down i think quite effectively and just dealt with and knocked out of the park by the president of the united states in
I'm not advocating the topic of the broadcast.
I don't know, in terms of maybe a press conference.
Not when you're there responding to questions, but our speech.
Not in the Oval Office.
I don't know what the answer is yet.
Maybe not a perfect CD.
Maybe not.
Maybe an issue statement.
Maybe a goddamn good white paper.
Just that thing.
As I said, I don't know what the formula is, but I don't think I should address.
I have this funny feeling about it, but I may be wrong.
There may come a time when I've got to go out and address it again on the actual topic.
No, no, no.
I did.
I think of every time I do that, that raises more doubts.
The whole narrative I had to do.
Do you think we were right to go at that point, or would we have been better to do that in the middle of the day?
No, I think that one.
That had to go that way.
All right.
But my point is, having done that once, I don't even have the president out there a month later say, look, fellas, I told the truth the last time.
No, no, absolutely not.
See, that's what I'm saying.
I think we've got to go on.
There may be an occasion where a statement has to be made.
Maybe a fight, maybe a speech, you should say, but if you get the right kind of a forum.
But you've got to wait and see what they've got, everything, right?
Yes, sir.
But you know, when you really come down, what the rest of what they've got is Brother Dean, you know that.
What they've got is Dean?
Yeah.
And so what the hell else do you think they could have?
Nothing more.
Dr. Larry, he's a good fellow, isn't he?
No, he's a good fellow, yeah.
He said they were really going to go out an awful long time, and they were injured, and I was standing up tall.
Shit.
See, they don't know what they're after, I'm afraid.
There's a lot of innuendo, and a lot of...
There are a lot of assumptions being made.
an awful lot of people, you know?
You mean baseball, that the president knew?
No, no, not in relation to that.
Turn that, in terms of the law,
You don't want me there, do you?
No, sir.
All right.
Yeah.
Don't have a... No, sir, don't do it.
But with...
The judge isn't going to open the box tonight.
He thinks maybe he'll open it in the morning.
What the Christus is all about is to fiddle around with everything.
It looks like he's part of it, huh?
No.
I'm afraid.
Don't you think they know what's in the damn box?
The dame they want to listen to.
Or if they need that, I don't know.
But I think he'd be the speaker, so I don't know that.
Well, I don't either.
He thinks it's a lot of, you know, he's running a big blog.
I didn't think he should talk to me.
I just wanted to be sure that it was Walter so that he understands that I do not feel my person.
It would have hauled him in earlier when we were trying to get him to do such a stupid thing.
Would it count in the room?
And he could have just endured it then.
That's my whole point.
The second point is that you've got to get awfully hard on the fact that the first one, which he will, the president, now that he had him on, that he completely sold Maldini.
Also, remember that conversation in one case where
uh, with Matt Gray, where, where Gray said he, where Gray said he had talked to the president on the telephone, and the president told him to take this high, to continue the investigation, no matter how ever high.
Uh, he remembered that.
I suppose he got that in, in his, you see, those are the things that need, that we need to get across.
Would you agree?
Absolutely.
It's actually essential.
Now, what else, uh, have you got there?
The other thing is that, uh, uh,
I, that particular, that line, I don't think he needs to even mention, I mean, the fact that he discussed whether or not he had talked to Walters or not, you know what I mean, as it, which is his end concert.
Basically, that wasn't the whole point.
When my conversation with that fellow that day, with Gray, was purely that there was the end of another one, and when I, when he brought up the subject,
And I had some recollection of somebody talking about brawlers.
So then I asked him about it.
And he said they both agreed they should take the size of it.
That's the way they remembered it.
I don't think that came up in that context.
Walter told me to get across the back of it, that he, Greg, told Walter, the man, the president, and said, in the telephone conversation, take it as high as you go, or whatever it was, you know, you remember what it was, don't you?
Total privilege, I mean, total, total monogamy, on the basis of this, and I should hear somebody, he could testify on everything, but he cannot do it, he's an Amazon student, he concerns everything.
Now, he, he also, I guess, learned to, uh, had turned in an act of David.
Who did?
Walt.
Yeah.
Just like him.
Yeah.
Now, the earlier he did, you know, to, uh, help have our services picked up.
And what did he not say?
Kind of see each other and started with him.
Did he hear?
Not that bizarre.
I remember, you know, all of a sudden, he, uh, he told me on the phone that it was, uh,
very helpful to the present, but not helpful to Martin Jones.
Well, what can you do about that?
I don't plan to make that.
Thank you, sir.
Goodbye, Mr. MacMillan.
You won't take the painting papers?
Why are you taking so long?
Why didn't the judge close the police list down?
Huh?
Isn't that funny?
Well, he probably is.
He's got me busy over there.
You know, judges just don't work that way.
Well, for Christ's sake, this is important stuff to get out and get this case off the road with.
Oh, yeah.
Thanks, Alfred.
Love you.
I think we're going to be wrong.
Sometimes we've got to kick the ball.
But I just figured, I just want you to know that you're going to have some rough times.
Oh, I don't mind.
You know, of course, we're going to get started.
We've already did that.
It's going to get rough early.
That's exactly right.
You know, you said a client or something like that living around the country, and sort of a tree, and all that kind of stuff.
It's necessary.
It's obvious.
It's going to be.
Yet we've got to help and support them there.
That's the whole point.
So, we've just got to keep our sense of balance.
Do some positive things.
This week, the only positive things we got are the Armed Services Committee and all this electric thing in the morning.
The election committee is striking the Armed Services Committee.
But you have a mind.
You don't think of something.
I ain't ready to go out and smoke.
Let me tell you, I'll be ready.
But I don't want to do it.
I don't want to do it, you know.
You don't want to do it.
And then have the goddamn committee come up with a dean and a new revelation or something.
I think we just better take the heat for a while.
Take it, Ron.
But be a little bit of a cheer, you know, like you have been.
But you're absolutely right.
We can't be watching him sin every time Walters goes up to testify or the rest of the time.
No, I think there's no question about the fact that that's the way to go now.
I'm just...
I'm not concerned about these reports, but I'm...
I don't want to lose sight of the fact of what is happening here.
And we can't
We have to proceed according to the strategy which you set forth.
But we can't allow it to get out of perspective.
We cannot allow ourselves to begin to react around this place.
And this is what I think.
Yeah, there you are.
That we are guilty.
Even me.
That you are guilty.
And we are starting to act that way.
And we've got to stop it.
Because if we don't, then we are going to be charged guilty.
You see, that's my point.
And that goes all the way through this place.
I think, too, you know, you take a fellow like Al, he doesn't know me.
No, no, he's no problem.
But now it's fine.
But, you know, others, Mazar, he doesn't know me that well.
But I think he's probably all right.
But other people around, I mean, are probably wondering, Jesus Christ, maybe they did cover it up.
Maybe they did.
You're right.
Well, I don't know how widely it goes, but certainly those, excuse me, people working on this problem.
Yeah.
my God, better not have any different views.
And I'll tell you, this is one guy that I do, and I sound like I'm a fan of his, but one guy who's a fellow who's really standing up to this thing, and I know as well as employees to some degree, and I think I know who he is.
Garment, is it?
Garment in his own way.
Yeah.
He's a loyal fellow.
He's a lawyer?
Loyal.
Loyal fellow.
Loyal fellow.
Is that it?
Did you find out now whether he ever got a statement on the third one?
Yes, sir.
I can check it in on him.
I don't think I've ever been in a position to deny Stephen a million dollars in campaign money.
Shit.
Oh, my.
That's so ridiculous.
Jeremy?
You know, I forget.
You tell me, Thompson, that we don't give a damn about tears and what I did.
Tell them that they put us in a position where I've had a denial of behalf of the president, stealing $1 million from me and paying funds.
God damn it, we don't like that.
Right?
Or we take the committee on tomorrow.
The president's going to take the committee on tomorrow.
Mm-hmm.
Okay, good.
Okay, thanks for coming.
So, they're sorry, huh?
Now, Ben says this is indicative of the committee.
He says if this works out where they don't respond tonight, he said, that could put us in even perhaps a stronger position.
He said he's talking to Thompson, he's trying to be German, he's not available.
And he said, my God, if they can't get themselves together as a committee,
to respond to this, that will, we will be able to say tomorrow, see.
I think somebody ought to demand from the litigants.
Yeah, I mean demand publicly.
I don't know.
See, if they don't do this.
Yes.
I think they brought a, what you have to do.
See you tomorrow at 6.30.
Leave your, uh, uh, call right here.
I'll take care of your papers.
All right.
So, the last one that's been working.
At K38, my address.