On May 15, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon and Alexander M. Haig, Jr. met in the Oval Office of the White House from 12:24 pm to 1:00 pm. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 918-025 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
It is.
It is.
He's going to survive it.
He's very, very damned about this, goes Rustin.
Rustin said that Melanie Hirsch had information that a lot of the material of Henry's tax was being used politically and
used against these people.
What people?
The people who were attacked.
Which, of course, is nonsense.
We never have.
Never used any.
So he said, who was the man?
He says, his name is Seymour Hearst.
Oh, for Christ's sake.
Hearst is a really bad, bad actor.
So I said, and my name was drawn in that I was the link between Haldeman and the wiretaps to assassinate people politically.
So I said, yeah, I'll call Chris, and I'll tell him if he doesn't want to know about it.
So I did.
I said, Scotty, what the hell is this all about?
He said, you should have heard from me.
If he has any questions about what was done and why it was done, just send them right down.
Yeah, and the point is that with all these things, he gets all excited.
And every time Rexton does call, he screws them up usually.
But the point is, we have nothing to be apologetic about these white caps.
As a matter of fact, you should be very confident.
They were never put out.
As a matter of fact,
He would have been banned if they had, but they were used solely for the purpose of policing their own shop, which he had an obligation to do.
Now, the goddamn New York Times ought to be concerned about that, if they aren't concerned about it.
Of course, Hershey's the guy who broke some of the Pentagon papers the other day.
He's banned.
He's banned.
When I'm in here talking to Tony Mazzara, it doesn't take too much of your time, but I would be flat out...
Of course we did.
He said, well, why did you do something also with them?
Because we always had to have both.
The FBI had to do something.
We had our own organization doing it here, too.
I don't know about that.
I think that's the way to play it out.
There's no reason to be apologetic about doing this, right?
Right, right.
The way we've got that economy thing set up, I guess it's all right.
I think it'll work for us.
I thought it'd be good to have him...
So they get the fee, we'll talk to Schultz, go on to Schultz.
I've talked to them all over the weekend about it so that they would be cooperative.
And they'll see you at 4 o'clock and they say, you and Schultz, good.
And then me and Ty.
Right, so we'll bring them in and then we can leave very quickly.
And then I can get back to them.
Right.
Do you have any more thoughts?
independent prosecutor.
Yes, I am.
And I'm, uh, Elliott's not available.
He's on the Hill, but, uh, Lazard said it's perfectly legal.
We could do it.
Now, I think it's got some good, good pizzazz to it.
It's, you've got to be in charge.
That's right.
That's right.
Next thing you know, we'll be boxed there with a guy who's playing his own game.
He won't be telling us anything.
Well, at the point now, anytime you talk to him, you know you're talking for the broadcast.
No matter what you say to him.
So, would an independent prosecutor be the same?
Be the same.
However, he's not got a political stake.
Elliot is.
Elliot is.
No question about it.
Made for something else.
Well, he's not doing it the right way, let me say, because...
He's got to realize that we're here right now for three and a half years.
My golly, there's not a hell of a lot to say about the politics in this country over the next three and a half years.
These guys are very short-sighted, I think.
You learn a lot in a time like this.
You really do.
About people.
Yes, you do, don't you?
You get to have a lot of self-service running around.
And all of a sudden you find out there's some pretty good people.
And that's right.
You learn the strong ones and the good ones.
You learn the weak ones.
Do you have any further success with the eye director?
There's still surgery to be made.
Well, I'm going to meet with Jones here in about an hour.
We've got a whole host of people.
I'd like to move on very, very quickly.
Me too.
That's another fellow.
He's family.
I'm not very pleased with Rockwell.
He handled himself.
in a cute way yesterday.
His statement was basically cute and designed to... Well, I know that the small things we did didn't help him, but the way it came out was...
It was bad, and his handling of the questions and answers was...
I didn't think what I would call a team player's way of doing it.
I suppose that is inevitable, isn't it?
You put people in these positions.
They see other people annoying the man and they sort of think they can get away with it.
There's a natural tendency.
There are very few basic loyalists, you know.
Very few loyalists, aren't there?
There are very few.
You've got people like Ed Butts, who's a loyalist, and Lynn is a loyalist, and Brandon is, and so on.
That's right.
You've got to deal with that kid, thank God.
uh rogers martin's avoidance is very good do anything to hurt them very much but these guys these guys have shown bridal's house of richness range that was a very unnecessary thing for him to say it there he had simply said the names and suggested it and simply transmitted it
What he should have done is put it off light and say, well, I've had recommendations from everyone, from this committee, from Congress, from staff, people in every agency of government.
I had no direction from the White House.
I had absolutely no direction from the White House.
That's the way he should have handled it.
As far as I would say, trying to get it all in perspective, though, we've knocked that out of the park for a long time.
And also, the driver's office, it just looks...
all the silly that we did.
I mean, it looks, it looks like we got it, but the goddamn papers are not destroyed.
Yeah.
I, no, I think that is going to prove to me, over time, a very wise move.
Had we done otherwise, it would have been a deep trouble.
I mean, had we done it here, yeah.
See, they, they all knew.
They all knew where they were.
The whole thing, that we were captured over here, the heroes,
Disloyal and leaking.
Well, the jurors were disloyal and leaking, and they put them over here for that reason.
God damn it, we didn't ask them over here for that reason.
We weren't, we just didn't know.
And Sullivan came out yesterday.
He was interviewed.
What did he say?
Did he stand up?
I didn't hear that.
He said that...
He said J. Edgar Hoover in his old age was getting very, very funny.
Yeah, that's good.
Because of his idiosyncrasies, due to his advanced age, he felt that those papers had to be moved to a safe place.
They would have been put to bad use.
And he took the responsibility for them?
He took it totally.
So therefore, he moved them to the White House?
He talked to Martin about it and urged it on.
With Martin's own knowledge of the problems
And the Bureau confirmed that that was the wise, safe place, the safe thing to do.
That's a hell of a good story.
I mean, did it get you right?
Yes, it was... Is that a doubtful story?
No, it was a whole piece on it.
A whole piece on it.
It got a fair ride in the post.
Now I have to pretend it's nothing to do anymore on Henry's psyche today.
I think that it's, that it's really, he's got a big bench to handle and he's just got to get over and do it.
But I just treat him around a little right now because I used to remember coming here and he would worry about me.
Now Scotty arrested Colin and give him a bunch of, why doesn't Henry stand up and say, Scotty, Sam Seymour came to see me.
But he doesn't want to admit that he was trying to
This is our problem on these things.
He's so enamored with the sensitivities of the left-wing liberal that he gives a great fight back.
Let me tell you what we're going to have to think about when we talk about this movement.
We always do.
We must, of course, keep our options open through the Soviet summit, and we must believe
that he is going to stay on.
He must leave.
But we've got to watch him in this period between now and the Soviet summit.
I almost concluded at the time, recently, at the December bombing, that we just couldn't take another, you know, when they cut the Soviet summit, that it just couldn't take him that much longer.
I hope that I don't have to conclude that you and I both know that he has very serious psychological problems and
it may be that this kind of thing will be too severe for him.
Now, in the event that happens, the ultimate move is common.
And so therefore we've got to watch commonly that we're going to treat him carefully.
Treat him with penitent loving care, having in mind that we put the common in.
But if I put him in, I would still, I would not put him in as
Secretary of State, and assistant president, I don't think he'd be, I think he'd still have put a good key photograph or something in there so that I had something.
And a good independent staff.
Wow.
And a good independent staff.
And a good independent staff.
And Conley, but Conley would naturally be the lead horse.
Which is, even Roberts would be gone.
And Henry would be gone.
And we may have to make that move.
I don't understand.
I go, I say,
The preferred way to run this shot is if Henry can stand the heat, the emotion of it, and we can stand him, is for him to act as though he's on a garage or something.
Assuming that there's a lot of heat that doesn't look like a reason.
With Henry, that takes the two of us.
That's preferable.
It is.
But you and I both have to understand among ourselves that we better watch this for him.
I'm very careful at this point.
Are you agreeing with me on that?
I agree completely.
I do have a very strong feeling that in the short term, Henry's move to state would be the best thing we can do.
No question.
I think Henry is going to, at best, carry that kind of a job for maybe a year or two.
And then you'll want him out anyway.
And he'll want to leave.
But right now, given the neighborhood and his accomplishments, which in the mind of the people in the press, is a hell of an asset.
They don't know what we know.
I understand.
I prefer to keep him.
But what I'm saying is that if after the story is solved, if after that we determine that he just can't take it anymore, that would be the time to make the move.
See, what worries me really is purely substance.
This guy has woven a web.
If he knew, for example, that he had a year, or whatever time, to get this thing.
And that's another reason why I'm in this state, where this thing gets institutionalized.
It's got to be natural.
His own little head.
Well, he was the only FBI director who followed up on that later.
Yes, sir.
I'll have a recommendation tonight for you.
What about the leak of Goldsberg's cab?
Would it be arranged?
Yes, absolutely.
And, uh, Bazaar rejected the independent.
What is the next move of the independent prosecutor?
For you and Bazaar to have a double talk with Elliott?
Yes.
Or do you think I should just call him and tell him I'm good?
Well, let us, I want to see, he's bringing over what the legal complications are.
He says it's perfectly legal, but it's a little tricky.
I'm sorry.
Yes.
And then we all have a recommendation for how to go from here this afternoon.
All right.
Good.
And then we should have a draft speech for you tomorrow night.
Would you like it tomorrow?
Nothing to do with it, because it takes some time to get it out.
If I repeat anything until about 4 o'clock, say 4 o'clock, that gives them a full day.
And only about, you know, 2,000 people.
What will be the event?
To a military?
No, we're going to get Norfolk people in there.
It's Armed Forces Day, the base is open.
To the HGV?
It should be greater than 2,000 words.
It should be about 1,200, you know, 1,500 words max.
And I may decide to stay out of it.
I mean, I figured with our current synergy, it may not be the substance of the fact that we're out with people.
So I have a text to her now for her to share with you.
Sure.
But just to add on to what the problems are,
We'll go forward now with our message to the Congress tomorrow.
Right.
At least we're going to move on that day, I think.
Right.
I think that's a good plus.
And I know our little friend Albert, I guess, is a little...
Right.
...his usual way.
I mean, he didn't always ask, but the House is difficult here.
They don't know why.
But Ford is for it, and the Senate is all for it.
So we've got a lot of good support in here.
There's going to be great support from the House, more than anybody.
He's just nervous.
He's a nervous
Nellie, but you know what they think.
I don't think they'd love that for you, Chuck.
My God, that's what they all talk about day and night, that they're obsessed with it.
Right.
Now, any way the judge has to open the box, Shannon?
Nope.
What the hell do you think, Chuck?
It's inconceivable.
I just don't know.
Of course, I think he's playing it through.
Being the master of
of the ship and, you know, how they are.
He's going to get publicity and interest and people hanging around waiting for the great decision.
The judge is playing for that.
Well, he said, I don't care what's in the box.
It doesn't make any difference.
It didn't make any difference.
I mean, the point is, we've gotten, we've gotten all the slapping around, you know, and the advice that we take, you know,
Well, this is one of the reasons I'm concerned that we get our show on the road.
you know, best interest indictments, special prosecutor, Elliot, confirmed.
It's the delays in which all this crap keeps going and going and going.
Yeah.
Where they can really, they're attacking credibility.
That's what they're doing.
Sure.
I know that.
But we can solve it.
And we will.
We will do it.
And we do.
We can use the same kind of, quote, objectivity that he can't resign on that.
He could never resign.
No.
No, no.
He said he would, but he can't do that.
No, he can't do any of that.
I believe that he's going to be the attorney general in the United States, which is a hell of a good job.
He's better suited for that than being secretary of defense.
And he'll handle a lot of other things.
You know what I mean?
He'll give you the selection law stuff.
He'll give you a chance to speak.
As a matter of fact, he's probably better advised to be the head of all of this water game thing.
Because you've got to make some enemies as well as friends and that sort of thing.
And Trevor does that.
Well, we've got to...
If we have a good package...
I think we ought to—we have two options.
One is to just be brutal and step in and do it.
I wouldn't do that.
I would— Tell him.
Tell him.
And tell us that we—tell him that we— Well, I'd be ready.
You've never seen Tom before.
You don't want to do it today.
You won't be ready today to talk about it.
I don't think we should do it today.
I think we should do the action tomorrow, but we ought to— Well, I will say tomorrow—say—shall we say tomorrow—
tomorrow morning maybe i'll kind of log in with the czar and you and i can talk about it and maybe we could all get in and move on and uh but you know do it
The way they do it is to do it in a graceful way.
Exactly.
Where Elliott, in effect, says that we've spoken quite a bit, and so forth, that they prefer an independent prosecutor, and so forth, and he is therefore, at the Constitution, the President, the President is appointing, and so on and so forth.
The way you do it is not say the President will appoint, appointing,
And it could be the one Elliot recommended.
That's right.
You just said I'm opining on the recommendation.
You could see that.
Elliot Richardson and I are quite responsible as the independent prosecutor with these functions, and that's the way I would do it.
so that he would be housed or something like that.
Facilities and so forth and so on.
But he would be entirely independent.
I think really it's the way to do it.
And then it just gets that issue out.
That's all.
All of these are the only issues.
The issue about... Well, it keeps your strong...
leadership in this thing.
It makes you totally responsive.
It's usually the way those things go.
go in two steps, but let's do it in two steps, don't you think so?
Well... That's my point.
I really think the end of that prosecutor may be the best idea, rather than fighting completely to die for L.A. British to get it confirmed, and then have a prosecutor under him, you know what I mean?
Well, that's right.
And my real reasons for it are basically, I'm not sure that we've got the right guy in this thing, given...
the way he's showing his hand, it's far better to have someone who doesn't have an ambition beyond this, who's out to do the job and go back to his old job.
Yeah.
Terrible thing to think about having a prosecutor to trust you back into your own administration.
Why not?
Well, we'll think about it very carefully, and that's what I want to do before we take the day aside.
Yes, sir.
You know, tactically, it would be a stroke of genius.
You know, it would just boom, boom.
That would do it.
That's right.
But I'd like to do it tomorrow.
If I possibly could, it would be a good time.
Actually, I'm going to do it tomorrow, by the end of the night.
Yeah, we can make two stories in one day.
below the border in 50 minutes.
That's when they're all going to be done.
Nothing more you need to tell me about the Watergate thing at the moment?
No, sir.
Be clear about what you have to sit in there and listen to it all.
I hope that, I hope you can get it preserved and just take us, tell them to make the decisions and take care of the light.
All this excitement yesterday about the million dollar thing, I got the total wrong this morning.
I got too excited about that.
That was such a goddamn out-of-body story that I'm very many picked it up.
No, and I, they,
The committees acted responsibly.
They did that?
Yes.
What did they do?
Well, they disclaimed any association with it.
They did?
I didn't know that.
They did this morning.
Oh, that's good.
We got it back once.
I think we're...
We did the right thing yesterday on that.
There are certain things you do have to react to, goddammit.
Yeah, you couldn't let that stand.
You couldn't let that stand.
If that had gotten all over the wires and the news, it just wouldn't have been one more.
I think the wire didn't need to be plugged in, because they probably were afraid that the...
They must have issued a pullback on it, because it came out on AP, and then nobody picked it up, so they must have pulled it back.
And I think that was why.
You know, your instincts are to let it go, and
That one was too irresponsible, and there are too many... Well, we're in a position now where we should be rising.
I have to be on the public plate.
Today's a pretty good day, though.
I mean, it's a good day for Congress.
Doing it is a lot of work.
I mean, it's a story.
We'll act.
Tomorrow, we'll... Today, we'll figure out something to speak.
Yeah, we're making a little speech tomorrow.
It's a following day.
We kind of have the Friday and Thursday.
Probably I'll do something with the economic room.
I guess we've got something to have.
I think that's good.
I'll speak with Schultz on whether he'd ever want to have a meeting with the plunderer yet.
We're going to meet something big on energy here pretty soon.
I don't know what they needed to do.
We got our message, but did something change in our program?
No.
A big stroke of some sort?
Yes, we're looking at the possibility of bringing in a broadly based advisory group, so we get the responsibility for a lot of things shared.
We're going to have some tough periods later in the summer, and it's very good to have
And we are going to want to talk some more about organization and whether or not you want to bring somebody in on the domestic side here.
I didn't want to bother you with that until we have
I don't think we really need it at the very moment, except I don't want you to be over 30.
What I meant is on the domestic side, I think that rely a bit more on ash.
I'm doing this.
I'm doing this.
Coal is perfectly adequate.
Coal is perfectly adequate.
And let the goddamn cabinet do the work.
I don't think we need it, especially with Crowley coming in.
I think the
Another, yet another guy with crowning the Vice President's concerns.
It's just better to let him go.
That's right.
No, they did not.
And that's good.
We've got a feeling.
He's a hell of a good man.
He's bright.
Quick on his feet, but he's just not oriented properly yet.
We didn't have anybody else to coach him, but Abe and I tried to find that behind director.
So I told him he had to do it.
Well, he comes out looking pretty good.
Yes.
He's been good, and he's been effective, and he's a hell of a good man.
Yeah.
And I think the public generally feels it's right.
But I'm glad to get out this story about Hoover's melody and the rest, and put the goddamn plane where it belongs.
for around a lot of people to answer that question.
That's the answer to the goddamn question.
Sullivan brought those things over here.
Sullivan, not Sullivan and Martin, you know what I mean?
Sullivan brought them over and put them in there when Sullivan was sitting.
That's it.
So that story's well established and verified now because Ruckelhaus put it out and Sullivan backed it.
And anybody that wants to go over to the FBI knows that it's true.
I've got features in the smart menu, sir.
I could buy a sense of that.
I'm sure this is a reflection on you that you've been having this way across the year.
and he indicated that he had to do it.
And I said, I had a joint conference with Buzzard.
I said, it would be nice to do a joint conference with Buzzard.
And I said, well, we can talk to Buzzard.
And he said, I'm happy to talk.
I don't want everything caught.
I mean, I want to know a little bit about it.
So Buzzard's actually started very good with Peterson.
I repeat, as long as Peterson's around.
But if you've got any kind of prosecutor with Peterson, they won't be completely on the case.
It's really true that Pearson is not a bad guy.
That's right.
What do you think?
I think he's just in good.
I think he's a good calling servant.
That's right.
We went over this whole business, you know, of, you know, I was mentioning this whole national security stuff and how I told him about that.
Right.
How this whole goddamn thing got out of him.
But he says it.
That's what I'm saying.
I think Dean explained to somebody that Peterson really knew about this damn photograph and knew that it was Hunt in October.
And so I was curious to find out myself.
And sure enough, Peterson said, yes, they saw a couple of photographs on October.
But he said he didn't know that it was Hunt.
and the psychiatrist's office until Dean told them on April 15th.
Now, you know this lie, don't you?
Yes.
I mean, they said, yes, we have the pictures on Twitter.
So you understand.
We've got the camera wrapping the CIA, the world film, and so forth.
So Dean, if John Dean, I know she said, but John Dean didn't tell us anything about it until March.
You know what I mean?
I don't know, but he might have told John earlier about the god damn thing about a croak being mad because he kept saying that after he watched the movie he said a croak had a problem.
And I guess that's what he meant was a croak's problem.
It was with regard to that.
But here's the point, that's all I had in mind was to be ashamed.
Here's Peterson.
They had no
They have to stay in that department now since October, but not in the other.
Then he said he told me to go to the team.
So I made it very clear to him that when I had done it, I had it very strongly that on the 17th, I said, I was here.
And then he heard a question of 180 floggers.
I said, you cannot go into national security.
And I considered that to be courage.
I mean, I used the word courage, which is wrong.
I did not say it.
I said, I don't know about that.
They said, you don't know.
I had no reference at all to what you did to Ellsberg.
I was, I was, you know, you and I discussed that.
She had called, and I, uh, they could ask me whether or not it was, uh, information that had been obtained in this plumbing operation that had gone to the prosecutor.
And I said, no.
He was very clear.
He said, yes, that's correct.
He said, well, this is the only thing that matters here is the bottom line.
He said, we got the information to the judge.
He said, good.
But they got it on the way.
Off the way.
When they were getting it, I don't know what role Dean was playing.
But he likes me.
He really does.
As a matter of fact, another additional point that came in, I don't know why they were there.
He said that even in October, they, at the Bureau, were still, at the Department of the Justice Department, were still trying to check whether there was CIA involvement in this.
That doesn't add up to what Walter said.
Walter said,
We cut it off, but he said, I said, are you sure?
And I said, yes.
So I got that thing called the CLAA.
I talked to him about it again, the controller.
Boy, there's more at the PCI.
That's right.
And I'll bet you every crack will lead to D. So
See, he could have gone over there and certainly in the case of justice, he was...
I'm saying, for example, this picture in October, Justice is Acquired.
It very well may be that the readers showed that Dean made a book about it.
But God damn it, why in the hell did Dean report that to me?
He never did.
That's been a style through, I don't know.
I haven't heard of it.
Oh, no problem.
He might have reported it earlier.
It's conceivable, but I think we can proceed on the assumption that he didn't.
He might have.
I don't know.
It seems to me he knew about it for some time.
I don't know.
I'm trying to stay awake.
And I don't think Buzzard should get too much into it.
Basically, let's face it, Buzzard's got to recognize it's here.
And earlier than he's done it.
Bob, also to the extent, earlier with Bob and Colson.
Did he get to see Colson, incidentally?
He was scheduled to.
I don't know.
He hasn't.
I haven't talked to him.
He was going to last night.
So, and it's got to be by, because the home's been covered.
It's been covered.
Waters was going to call me if there was any difficulty whatsoever.
He hasn't called me.
I'm going to check with him.
He was supposed to remember you, huh?
He spent the evening with him.
I've got to talk to Schultz.
I can talk to Schultz.
I'll call you back, okay?
He was supposed to remember you, huh?
He spent the evening with him.
I've got to talk to Schultz.
I'll talk to him, and I'll tell you back, okay?