Nixon White House Tapes › Tape 919 › Conversation 919-007

Nixon & Ziegler on Watergate and John W. Dean III

Wednesday, May 16, 1973 · 9:30 AM–9:48 AM ET · Oval Office · 18 min

ParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President); Ziegler, Ronald L.Conversation919-007 on Tape 919StartWednesday, May 16, 1973 at 9:30 AMEndWednesday, May 16, 1973 at 9:48 AMRecording deviceOval OfficeSourceNixon Library record for 919-007 ↗

AI Summary

President Nixon and Press Secretary Ronald Ziegler met to strategize the White House response to intensifying Watergate-related scrutiny, specifically regarding the role and credibility of former counsel John Dean. They focused on clarifying the internal investigation process and justifying previous press statements by emphasizing that Ziegler’s assurances of no White House staff involvement were based on Dean's repeated, deceptive briefings. The pair decided to shift toward an offensive communications strategy, framing the investigation as a standard administrative function performed by the counsel's office rather than a specific, top-down directive from the President.

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Transcript (AI-generated)

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I had an arm injury, you might say.
It was quite hard.
I remember Bob and John doing it about the...
They're, uh, I talked to Bob this morning, but they're contemplating that.
Bob said he was going to check with the lawyer.
And, uh, it seems...
It was blown to hell out of proportion.
Basically, everything that was in there, Ron, was what Dean did.
Yeah, that's right.
And they interlocked it with that first meeting, which was not connected at that time.
Sure.
Sure.
on the grade, the so-called 3.7.
I make the call to grade.
And I go and take it to the top.
That's in the water system.
Why doesn't any of that stuff ever get out of the study?
I don't know.
I don't worry about it.
No, I'll get this.
One thing I think we should do today is this whole question of the dean report, how it got started, and how you made your August 29 statement.
I think I'm just going to go out and lay that out.
Don't you think I should?
Absolutely.
Now, I've been fuzzing around with it for two days.
You said that you had backed off.
That's right.
Now, I'm saying, all right, gentlemen, and I think you take your notes.
I take your notes out.
I mean, here are the breathing notes.
Show them.
Here they are.
Well, I follow up with that.
If I could say this, he saw something in the B.I.
reports.
Look at it.
he sat in on so many interviews why because that was his response and that before each press briefing you or mr uh
He repeated that no White House people were involved, and that the August 29th statement was based on his repeated assertions in answer to that.
Now, that's a very honest statement, isn't it?
Well, see, I had not been asked about this question up until really August 29th.
We did not use Dean until August 29th, you see.
Now,
I can do all of that, and I will.
That's a good follow-up.
Let us understand what the security, I mean, not for the purpose.
Our purpose here is not to get him, you know, you know, just to whack him around.
So when is it?
We haven't gotten the damn papers yet.
No, they're working.
Mozart, I just talked to him, is working with Snead on that matter.
Snead's got him?
No, he's pressuring Snead to, you know.
Goddamn copy of that article.
Well, the, on the... Well, I don't think we should.
I think I should go out.
The question is, who asked Dean to conduct the investigation?
See, you stated on August 29th that at
Your instruction and mine, yes.
Yes, it would be.
But then the White House counsel, I didn't ask them specifically.
I didn't call them in the office and ask them.
Right.
But I asked, I gave directions, as I do in the Senate, that a complete investigation would be made of this.
Those directions were carried out.
I, basically, I deferred.
I mean, it is different, but what I meant is that, and the White House counsel, and those, that, that, that, there's directions which are very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very,
And on your August 29th statement, you asked for an update on the Watergate thing, and your briefing material was provided to you.
That said, Mr. Dean, in the briefing material that was created, I think you were the second in the briefing.
I was the second in the briefing.
Mr. Dean, what was that?
I don't want to get away with the idea of what they're trying to say.
It wasn't even, I just made it up.
Well, that's the thing we want to get away from and shoot down.
Show them.
Why don't you get the breathing book?
Show them.
Well, I don't do that.
Okay.
Well, of course, you're going to do the best you can.
But that's true.
I know it is.
So all of us, when I didn't know John Dean, hands up at that point.
But, you know, it's about the universe.
You know what I'm saying?
I don't think so.
The New York Times has a headline today that says that earlier than Orly made the assurance that no one in the White House was... Orly?
Yeah.
Yeah, I guess, you know, prior to August the 29th.
No, that wasn't written.
No, I understand, but prior to August 29th, you were aware of it, too.
Yeah.
That no one was involved.
That's right.
that i i think you could say that i i gave that i i said to behold that the entire white house that responsibility
It was delegated to me.
Who delegated it to him?
I didn't say he didn't.
Oh, by the way, John earlier.
Right?
John says he didn't, so that's a problem.
Oh, Christ says he didn't.
Who didn't give it to him?
I didn't.
Why did he make the gun attack report?
What does John say?
He didn't make a report as such, and we've never said it was a report.
It was an investigation.
Why did he sit in on him?
Why did he serve him?
It's because he was counsel.
That was his role to get the right to vote.
No, as White House counsel, counsel of responsibility was given to him once he went back to the White House.
The White House kind of literally is my secretary.
And actually, what he said, and then I would go back to the chapter first.
He received my mail.
Now, those are certain things.
He received my email.
He had to be hired, of course, having to do with the White House, you know, any White House personnel.
And it was also, it is the White House Council, under our system, it's the White House Council's responsibility to check the FBI reports and so forth in the journal that we hired him.
We say the responsibility under our staff system is for the White House Council.
check all the personnel checks they do i'll suggest the fbi he sat in on every one of their interrogations i guess what matters here is the fact
the, uh, he was the, uh, was the individual who just conducted the investigation.
And we, uh, well, you already said that you relied on the percentage.
Yes, sir?
Okay.
Bob and John are trying to think of what they can say about the woman's death.
They already did.
It is a day-to-day battle.
And the press were on it, you know, to charge on answers and so on and so on.
They take that just to start the shit up.
And one member of the committee would say, would come out and say, Walter said the president was not involved in the signing.
He said that didn't get in the news summary at all.
It didn't get in the news summary.
But you had told me that.
Yeah, he said that.
Yes?
I don't know.
I don't think we can fight that basis on a delay, on an action day-to-day.
It wasn't the president's call.
It wasn't against local trust.
But I want to get this Dean report cleaned up.
That's one of the first things.
They'll ask me about the Dean report.
They'll ask me about the – did the president direct the –
bar-tapping process in terms of the national security?
Yes, he did.
Yes, sir.
Well, Ziegler, why did you say no one at the White House was involved?
Why didn't you check with the president?
Or why didn't you ask?
I said, I just checked with Dean and the fellows.
I'll eat crow.
And perhaps I should have.
I didn't.
Did you check with Dean?
Yeah.
No, with the fellows and somebody in the national security area.
I didn't check with them because I didn't know what to do.
But we can say, and I'd love to say, John, I'd love to say this is a process and not an initial attempt.
It was totally legal.
It only does it for you to manage it twice.
One, that even as it was, some material leaked out that seriously impaired
The other thing is that had there been other, if we had not stopped these leaks,
We might not have succeeded in the negotiations at all, the historic negotiations in 1972, had we not been able to control the race.
And actually, we can say not only did the President direct his leader, but he directed the State Department and the Defense Department and the FBI also conducted investigations in these areas, to plug these leads.
Excuse me.
How abusive are you?
Sure.
Where necessary.
But did the president do anything to direct him in any specific way?
No.
His direction was to obviously lose that church or something that is privileged.
But take the offensive on him.
Take the offensive on him.
Hard on him.
Why don't I say this, if they get into a press, just to Marcia's point.
If they say, well, who specifically ordered the
to conducting the investigation.
I'll say, gentlemen, it's difficult to pin that down.
All I know is, in discussing this with the president, he was clear in his mind that John Dean had the responsibility to do so.
No, no, well, let me just say this.
I was just discussing this with the president.
In our staff system, the responsibility for checking personnel on FBI reports and so forth and so on, there's plenty of people in the office.
is with the White House Counsel.
And that's pretty much it.
And I can't say specifically who the...
There was no written order on this.
The President directed the entire staff.
He did it as well.
He said that everybody in the White House knew that the President wanted to get at the bottom and get the facts.
But on the key question as to who to direct, I'm just going to say the president doesn't recall specifically.
He just operated under the assumption from what he said to members of the staff that the investigation in-house was underway.
Everyone in the White House assumed, everyone in the White House knew it was implied that the counsel's office was conducted.
And because the counsel, for example, when people are appointed to the staff, their security clearances, their security clearances are always handled by, all security models are in the White House counsel's office.
They are.
Their security clearances are handled by the White House counsel's office.
the responsibility of goodness and the violence.
Rest on that.
And that's why this kind of investigation, there was no need for a directive.
I mean, the responsibility, the matters of this are involved in, you know, security appearances or breach of the law, or breach of the law, devolves on the White House counsel.
That is his responsibility.
And that is why, in the end, that's just the FBI report.
That is why he sat in on all the interrogations.
And that is why you, each time before a briefing, question him with regard to this.
That is why, and before my, my, that is why, I don't know how to get that, I just got to tell you, it was in the briefing books, huh?
Irving would put it in, I'm sure Irving would put it in, unless he talked to me.
Oh, you don't got that?
Well, he did, yeah.
Or, to put it that way, if Dean had to be like you, we should have stood aside.
And we had no antecedents before August 29th.
Dean, who had been sitting in on all of these conferences, who had an exit there, gave no indication whatever that anybody in the White House was involved.
No indication whatever that anybody in the White House was involved.
And then you can say, in your individual discussions with him before briefings, and the individual discussions Mr. Warren's had with me before briefings, after that period, after that period.
He, didn't he say to you there, can't you say that?
Yeah, I will.
He gave assurance that no one you would ask a specific question to send you on the line.
see he came out so he was surprised you didn't say report you said investigation okay good i'm gonna see comedy at 10 30.
10 30. well you know
I hope you're not getting discouraged.
No, I'm not getting discouraged.
I just don't want to get backed into a defensive, and I've allowed myself and therefore the White House to do that on this whole damn daily report.
But I'll handle that today.
I don't know what his papers are.
That's the biggest test he's done.
I think we ought to stop the justice defense.
He warned the president about payoffs, about .
That's your guess?
Well, no, sure.
Not better?
See, we're still living our problem, getting rid of it.
We're going to go with the resolution of the message on the commission today.
Yeah, I agree.

NARA Description

On May 16, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon and Ronald L. Ziegler met in the Oval Office of the White House from 9:30 am to 9:48 am. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 919-007 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Conversation No. 919-7

Date: May 16, 1973
Time: 9:30 am - 9:48 am
Location: Oval Office

The President met with Ronald L. Ziegler.

       President’s schedule
              -Radio speech on campaign reform
              -President’s meeting with Henry A. Kissinger
                      -Ziegler’s statement

       Watergate
             -Lt. Gen. Vernon A. Walters’s testimony
                    -H. R. (“Bob”) Haldeman and John D. Ehrlichman
                    -Ziegler’s conversation with H. R. Haldeman
                    -John W. Dean III
                    -Central Intelligence Agency [CIA]
                            -Defendants on payroll
                    -Haldeman and Ehrlichman
                    -President’s telephone call to L[ouis] Patrick Gray
             -White House response
                    -Ziegler’s possible statement
                            -Dean’s investigation
                            -Ziegler’s briefing notes
                            -President’s statement, August 29, 1972
             -Dean’s documents
                    -J. Fred Buzhardt, Jr.
                    -[Joseph T.?] Sneed
             -White House response
                    -Ziegler’s possible statement
                            -Dean’s investigation
                                    -President’s order
                                    -President’s statement, August 29, 1972
                                            -Briefing book
                                    -Ehrlichman’s role
                                      -9-

           NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                                       Conversation No. 919-7 (cont’d)

      -New York Times story, May 16
             -Ehrlichman’s statement
      -White House response
             -President’s orders concerning investigation
                      -Clark MacGregor
                      -Dean
                             -Ehrlichman
             -Dean’s investigation
                      -Responsibility as White House counsel
                      -Federal Bureau of Investigation [FBI] reports
      -Walters’s testimony
             -Haldeman and Ehrlichman
             -Press stories
      -Ziegler’s forthcoming press briefing
             -Dean report
             -Wiretaps
                      -President’s role
                             -Ziegler’s previous statement
                                      -Dean
                      -National security leaks
                             -Possible effect
                                      -Vietnam War settlement and Strategic Arms
                                       Limitation Talks [SALT]
                             -President’s orders
                      -Dean’s investigation
                             -Responsibility of White House counsel
                      -President’s desire for full disclosure
                      -Responsibility of White House counsel
                             -Dean’s activities
                      -Material in briefing book for press conference, August 29, 1972
                             -Ehrlichman
                             -Dean
                                      -Assurances regarding White House staff
                                       involvement to Ziegler and Gerald L. Warren

President’s schedule
       -John B. Connally
                                                  -10-

                    NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                                             Conversation No. 919-7 (cont’d)

       Watergate
             -Ziegler’s morale
             -Forthcoming press briefing
             -Dean’s documents
                     -Possible contents
             -Elliot L. Richardson
                     -Confirmation
             -Ziegler’s conversation with Haldeman

       Election Reform Commission

Ziegler left at 9:48 am.

Also recorded on May 16, 1973

  • 919-003 9:07 AM · 19 min — President Richard M. Nixon, Henry A. Kissinger, and unknown person(s) met in the Oval Office of the White House from 9:07 am to 9:25 am.
  • 919-004 9:25 AM · 7 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and unknown person(s) met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 9:25 am and 9:30 am.
  • 919-005 9:25 AM · 16 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Manolo Sanchez met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 9:25 am and 9:30 am.
  • 919-006 9:25 AM · 6 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and unknown person(s) met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 9:25 am and 9:30 am.
  • 046-074 9:48 AM · 12 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and White House operator talked on the telephone at 9:48 am.
  • 046-075 9:48 AM · 6 min — President Richard M. Nixon and J. Fred Buzhardt, Jr. talked on the telephone from 9:48 am to 9:54 am.
  • 919-008 9:48 AM · 11 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and White House operator met in the Oval Office of the White House at 9:48 am.
  • 919-009 9:48 AM · 6 min — President Richard M. Nixon and J. Fred Buzhardt, Jr. met in the Oval Office of the White House from 9:48 am to 9:54 am.

All 73 conversations from May 16, 1973 →

Cite this conversation

Conversation 919-007, May 16, 1973. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives. Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/919-007 (accessed October 1, 2026).