Conversation 919-017

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Yeah, because every $1,300 total is used.

If you have a man, his wife, and every name on it.

That's right.

You need a wife and a mother.

You know what I mean?

I'm going to be on our horses today on Saturday.

But, uh, Dallas is, I mean, how many people say you're exploiting the field?

Obviously, well, I'm not exploiting it.

Dallas wants to have a party.

Dallas is going to have, uh, two days, uh, of my coming to Dallas.

It's the second issue.

So I think you think it's a good idea, though.

I do think it's a good idea.

I think it's a good idea.

Let's go.

This is on a legitimate basis.

In other words, this is on a legitimate basis.

I've got to do my job in Washington, but I've also got to be in the country.

If I'm an armed forces man, I'm going to be out.

This thing's going to be easy to get into the country, too.

That's what I'm going to do.

That's my damn trip.

That's all I'm going to do.

Bob wanted to either...

He's down in the Bahamas and wanted to get you here this week.

I heard the play golf was playing golf, and I figured you couldn't do that.

I slept through it.

You're not playing, Mark.

Oh, yeah.

Are you starting to play?

Oh, sure.

Well, I started by, I see, I had got this with me the whole year the same way.

John, I can't, I won't start playing golf again until I start playing.

Yeah, well.

Because if I play once a year, I get so goddamn mad, frankly.

I mean, Susan, me too, I just had that fear.

It was Bob told me, I said, I haven't played since, well, since, well, I haven't played a big course.

Now, there was a long course, but about 14 months ago.

jesus christ and i go out and i'm half all over the place and i say oh now if i could start playing once a week i'd play right away oh yeah i love it and i do too and i don't but i don't try what about you know the dearest thing you don't need that though

Well, we can't come to Dallas.

We, uh, if you would enjoy, I guess, play golf.

Well, I tell you what I do.

I mean, it's sort of fun, but maybe if I came to Dallas, it might be good to play golf.

Yeah.

And, uh, we've seen some of the local guys that have been my good friends.

and sit around afterwards and show the president visiting all that in battle and all that crap.

I mean, a lot of people don't want us, if they think that the guy is sitting in here, you know, worried about this and that.

Of course I worry.

I worry all the time.

And that's our job.

It's, you know, the picture of my daughter.

But by God, I fight.

And I think it's, you've got to get out into the country and let them see.

Sure.

You got the invitation to go out to, uh, to that, uh, Krustenwood out there, Krusten Trail, which is an urban space.

Yes, they were back.

Yes, they probably were.

And I guess it's just a very long jail.

Would it be better than a morning stay in someone's house?

You know, that's a secret service, right?

That might be more fun.

You know, just go down there and start relaxing a little.

How far would that be, though?

How much, what?

Four minutes.

Huh?

Four minutes.

You see, why is it four minutes?

The airplane, the helicopter, which is the rest.

It's, uh, we're so used to doing that, that I think that would be a, might be a nicer thing.

Because I don't, you see, I have a lot of friends in Dallas that I wouldn't want to, I couldn't stay in a house.

No, you couldn't stay in a house.

A hotel might present a problem.

No, we'd go... Well, coming back to the subject A and so forth, let me say that Al Lee, a good fellow on some of the minutes, which I appreciate you talking to me.

Did you get Ash to...

Yes, I talked to Roy at the same time I talked to Al Lee.

Well, let me come to the, let me come to the front of the major point that I think is true.

with regard to, there's nothing that I believe could be, you know, more useful than what you call, sort of, and so forth and so on.

First of all, I've heard of things, and I'm fairly sure what the problem is, John, people,

Now, God damn it, if he would find some people, that's another thing.

Now, let me talk to you quite candidly, if I can.

This is just between us about Satan, what I have in mind.

I'm just talking forth, but I want you to have it in mind.

State Department doesn't know anything about it.

It's a renunciation of the use of nuclear weapons.

It will be a bombshell like nobody's business.

We've already cleared some of it from the British and the Chinese and so forth and so on.

In other words, it's something that is, this is the first time it's ever been mentioned, this thing, except with Henry and me and, of course, with Teddy.

He's aware that we're working with him and showing the lies that really corresponds.

Now, the Russian summit,

will also include four very major initiatives.

Solving principles.

Possibly, possibly something like these.

What our aim there is to try to get the bachelors to agree to some general principles.

If they, we, agree to some general principles, then we are going to squeeze the Israelis.

I am going to squeeze the Israelis.

And they will have to squeeze the Egyptians.

And they enter the site under the general principles that we worked on.

Now, there are never going to be a general principle ever worked on.

Those two types of everyone agree.

But that's the scheme.

Uh, that's about to be checked.

Henry is meeting with the doctor.

He's meeting with the Egyptian.

Now, that carries us through to the first of July.

If I realize any big announcements in the present time, anything at the present time,

that rocks that boat will screw that up royally.

It's got to go through.

I've got to get through the Russian summit, which will be, well, June 28th is the last day.

After the Russian summit, I am then in a position to take a look at the whole car.

Now, you've got two players here.

The two players are Kissinger and Rogers.

Rogers is no problem.

Bill's a good soldier.

You know, in terms of that, he hasn't been, as we know, the strongest foe in some of these clutches, but he's a decent man.

He's taken his Latin American trip now.

He will have to be here for the Russian summit because I can't prepare somebody.

At least promise about that minute.

You don't learn it in a week.

Right.

So he'll be there to decide, he'll talk to Gromyko, and he'll sign four agreements, including, uh, pretty good, you know, most secretaries, you know what I mean, when some people are interested in the matter.

So two big ones are solved.

And the mid-age is still a clinic.

preparation for it and we are going to do an awful lot of like an awful lot of business preparation for it and so forth i'm going to see brush he runs out of my ears because he wants to be back next year

he wants for some reasons that we all need to go into he wants very much

Our problem, John, is to make the basket pay a price.

Our price is to get him to cool the committees, cool them, and solve the situation to the extent that he can, and agree as best we can to get the arms race out of control.

Now, these are enormous and great goals.

And nothing happens in Watergate, nothing else.

I don't care if I am impeached by the Congress.

I've got to get this done.

This is the play.

It's more important than the first time.

And it's also got a laugh.

After that, though, the play then comes, Rogers and the Kisses.

And Rogers would leave.

He'd have the problems too.

But he isn't having somebody else stay.

There would be an advantage, actually, for Rogers to leave and for a new man to come into the state for a while with history still here.

Due to the fact that he knows of God that much.

For example, he's got the European son coming on forward.

And that is well underway and so forth.

The problem there is, quite candidly, is that Henry is an impossible son of a bitch for anybody to work with.

However, what I visualize, and this I visualize by the entity here,

as many as we get an advocate of being something.

What you have to do is to have a secretary of state who is secretary of state, and the NSC would be a scopron, in other words, a service organization over here to pull all these goddamn things together and involve states and society and so forth.

Now, what you see here is that we're looking at a situation as to

may move on the state in july or it can move on the state a little later maybe august or something like that before the european side now all of this had to be worked but it would have to be with the idea in mind it had to be the idea in mind and this is going to be just very very difficult to handle

Realize that he will not leave because you can't keep Kissinger and a big man in Secretary of State.

No big man is ever going to be Secretary of State with Henry over here in the White House.

The only other thing you can do is put Henry on the Secretary of State.

so there is a problem as you see it there i know that space is the key to the whole thing but i wanted to happen i think i had to tell you what why it is i can't move on speaking now i can't do it because it will not plan a lot of everything but what i had in mind was this right what i had in mind was to ask you to be secretary of state

Now, what I, but remember I said this isn't the time.

Well, for example, right now we're going to screw the Southeast Asian and everything like that.

But beyond that, the major reason is that we're in the middle of stuff that you couldn't possibly, I mean, undertake at this point.

I mean, you should get into it.

Make arrangements for it.

The European part we could.

You could do that, no problem.

But that isn't until October.

But what I meant is we've got this period from now until June, into July 1st.

The point is, though, I do not want you, even to have it in the back of your mind,

and i understand i'm not saying you don't want anything i understand all that but i i know what you ought to do i don't want you to have a state even in the back of your mind except in the circumstances where kissinger's role would be agreed would be temporary because you and kissinger would not go

When I say you wouldn't get along, you'd get along reasonably well.

We got that.

What I would have in mind as Secretary of State then becomes what I had in mind as a State in the last three years, John, is a Dulles basically.

You see, where Dulles actually was a man that came in, like this, who comes in and sees me now, and he'd come in and say, like, well, the defense budget is too high, or the CIA is screwing around, or this or that, and see.

So that's what I had in mind.

What I just want to put in the back of your head, and I want you to keep it there, and I want you to rule it out, because it's very important to the country.

well i thought it was the biggest of the building blocks that people think of and we need to start a rebuilding process and uh but it's not it's not that critical to do a lot of other things

And, uh, but I was, you know, I was searching the mains.

I, I thought, uh, that if, in order to present a new, a new facade, a new, a new front, forget it, but I was thinking of bringing, uh, 30 days after the Russian summit, bringing David Bruce back.

making Secretary of State.

He's too old, but he can't do it.

He can hardly do China.

I agree.

I like it very much.

But he is, he is, he's got a late problem, John.

He's got a clock, you know.

I'm taking Harry Berg out of the city.

He's not the brightest fellow in the world, but if...

She's a great lead in the Congress, a great lead in the country.

Well, again, I would like to say just to...

No, he couldn't.

He couldn't.

He's not with you.

No, he's out in the State Department.

You can't screw around with that job.

Basically, you've got to put somebody in that can run the job.

You could run the job.

There's only one other guy that can run it.

But I couldn't.

I mean, he would be running all over the place, and that's Nelson.

Nelson would just be...

you know, uh, authority chip, whatever.

He had to, you know, contain the team.

Well, you know what I mean?

He's a, he's not a team man, you know what I'm saying?

He wants to, you know, you don't know.

And, uh, there's no reflection on it.

You know what I'm saying?

Well, the only other thing is that, uh... And you talked about it with people that bring Reagan in for Christ's sake.

Reagan couldn't find his way to the toilet.

You know, on a thing like this.

I mean, Reagan's very good, straight arrow, decent, and all the rest, but he's not sophisticated enough.

This is the... You know this Ford policy, John.

It's an old idea.

Even talking to a little guy like Hazel, I see he took me a couple hours of preparation, you know?

Yeah.

So what I think we want you to do is to keep it in the back of your mind that we should look at it.

We've got to look at it at the time of the Russian summit.

Now, the other point is, and this is very important, I think you should make your Russian trip, but I don't know when the hell it is, whether you can get it in.

If you do not make your Russian trip, it is imperative, in my view, that you be here to have, or one of the meetings with him.

And what I mean is I've got to get a signal out there.

And one of the reasons that I had Al call you about your trip, because it just struck me in my mind, your trip came before the Russian summit.

If you could do it before, would you still do it before?

I'm referring to help me here.

just we need to be fresh now let's do it when he gets here we can do it just as well when he gets here as a matter of fact as a matter of fact let me tell you one thing he loves

Could you arrange a hunting party for me?

Is there a place that you're not hired in?

Oh, yeah.

I don't know.

But I need to hunt bull or things like that, big stuff.

Or, yes, we can hunt birds.

I don't think we can bird hunt.

Yes, we can, uh...

I was thinking of that island you mentioned, or, well, someplace around here, a place or something.

I mean, where I would go and be a spectator.

What I'm getting at is, uh...

It doesn't sound like little things, but to him, they're normally so important.

What we can do, we can arrange a hunt for him on the wild ranch.

Where is that located?

80 miles.

How many did you take care of him?

I had to go.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, they can take care of quite a few.

It's a commercial operation.

You can only do about a day or so.

You can go out and be good in one day or half a day.

I mean, much more than that.

But that can be arranged.

All right, would you flesh that out for me, so that as I look at my various options, I might throw that in.

And then what I'd like to do, though, for you, is that I want you to go see it.

So that, you know, we can go find it there, and...

And if you could do that, you could go there, and then go on out to California and see .

There's another reason for taking it there.

I'm trying to keep the hell out of the big cities.

You know why?

Goddamn demonstrations.

You know, the Hungarians and the Poles .

Well, this is in the hill country of Texas, isolated as hell.

It's great.

Oh, it's beautiful.

That's beautiful.

It's a beautiful, glowing country, and you can see that the world is in it.

And we can kill our four or five species with it.

Listen, it's a detail.

Let me tell you, on the defense, on the statement, let me say, I have in mind, the change has to be made.

I intend to make it all at home.

But now, and I know that it's going to have its great impact, but I can't make it now.

I'm sorry about that.

Well, we were going over problems.

We were talking about the defense budget.

We were talking about foreign aid.

We were talking about the trade bill.

We were talking about about the Supreme Court.

That's all the state.

All states.

State and defense.

And basically a question of leadership from the state.

So, but it's not that critical that you do it.

I think we have to somehow bring

some uh i use the expression some great ideas around here i'm going to give you some names

I don't know if you can get a Dave Harker in the White House if you want, but I don't know.

Mel here, if you've got a little sweat.

Mel, I've heard.

Yes, that'd be a job you might want to do.

This is a great thing to bring in.

Well, I thought we could get Johnny Burns in.

But that would be a very good thing to just give him a, you know, sort of free-witting operation.

But John is a very sound, evil guy.

He's had a lot of difficulties with all these folks that he's met, like John.

And he's got six kids.

That's why one of the reasons he quit.

Who is it?

John Burns.

Yeah.

John Burns.

You know, he's an honest businessman.

He never stole anything.

The portion of the bitch has not got any money.

So...

I heard what you said.

Let me say first, if you were to take a vote in that precedent, despite what you may see by individuals,

Ziegler is a highly respected person.

He is highly respected.

He's had a well life, he's a big man.

And he has had one of the toughest jobs in the world.

Nobody can be a press man.

Now the second point is that he is, when you talk about changing, you see you go down to the name, Jerry Warren, second man.

I'll talk to her.

Her, fine.

You can't go.

It doesn't happen.

But when you think of a name, the only name I can think of would have to go back to somebody from the Johnson administration, like George W. Trump.

Because he wouldn't.

I don't know if he would.

He couldn't.

I'm a solicitor.

Oh, it's her.

But I don't know what he did wrong.

Now, let me say this.

I'm sick of it.

Let me say it.

I've got more than I think.

I can help say that a great deal.

Let me tell you what I mean.

I cannot go out and have a press conference until after the indictment.

I decided that the original grand jury indictment should be in about three weeks.

There's a thing I can say, because what do you think of Mr. Mitchell?

What do you think of Mr. Hall?

What do you think of Mr. Ehrlich?

I can't do it.

And I'm going to wait for that.

But when I do, I'm going to go out about every damn week.

but but

But the reason that it's difficult to replace him is that he is very smart, totally loyal, absolutely honest, has never lied to the press.

Maybe they've got to make something out of that, whether it's a dean or, of course, it was a dean, of course, for Christ's sake.

The guy saw 93 FBI files with him, the counsel of the White House is the guy that does all the security work.

Ron can be useful to you in many ways, and I'm not sure that Ron can be more useful to you in another way in this office.

That's what I know.

All right.

It's not that Ron's usefulness is destroyed.

Ron's credibility is your press officer.

He's down near nil, and he knows it.

He admits it, and it is true.

Yeah.

So it's, uh, well, that's probably the credibility of the administration.

It's subtle, right?

I don't know if it's subtle or subtle.

It's not a question of blaming them, Mr. President.

No, I think that perhaps that can be said about virtually all of us.

That's correct.

So, then there it is that they all have to come to the point because they have to take the rap.

Sure, it's the administration.

I'm Ron Ziegler.

I'm not saying it's him individually.

I'm just simply saying that it'll help you, it'll help everybody to get a new face out there.

That's all.

and you'll use him because they brought stories i like him he's efficient i've never seen him do that i think the crush all like him they like him in division and but he's he's uh he's suffered through this last church i've got no question

I just do.

Let me ask you about some others.

Let's come down to the cabin for a brief, if I can.

First, Annie.

You have no problem with Annie?

No, I don't think so.

I mean, no problem with him in the new room.

And Roy is a first-class man, and he's not tied to me.

No, I know Roy can't be the big cream of honor around here, because he doesn't have the kind of capability.

He's got to do just what he's had over there, sir.

No, I understand.

What I meant is, you don't believe he should be, right, Schultz.

You might watch George.

George, unfortunately, as you well know, lacks the ability to convey and to communicate.

Science can do it, but he can't, all right?

What would you do, though?

You know how Secretary of Treasury is.

I don't know what the name, who would you, if you talk about that, get back to the names again.

And I think a lot of it depends, I don't know what I can do to be helpful to you, I think a lot of it depends on what you want to do, what in your heart you're going to feel like you want to do, how far you're willing to go, how far you think you can go.

Now, you don't have a better man, you don't have a more loyal man than George Shultz.

And I'm going to say this, he's confident as hell.

And I would, he's not involved in anything.

No.

No, I ain't, Kevin.

Well, you can't make me.

And this is why, this is why I've got to have him serve.

Well, he's doing a good job.

You know, you like what he's consistent with.

Martin is well-liked.

You just brought him in.

And that's why.

Brenner is good in there.

Brenner is like the later guys.

Well, you can't.

Well, in three months, a bitch made a hell of a mistake.

We didn't.

They're ten good men.

So, uh, Len would just take over his job.

He's our, he's a strong, he's a strong, articulate fellow.

Weinberg.

Weinberg, he told me to change him.

Now, Richard, he may be looking for a way out.

He may be looking for a good attorney general.

Yeah.

You mean he may not want to take this thing?

Oh, I don't think he has to want to take it.

I haven't talked to him.

I'm just reading through the lines.

I'm not so sure that he's not going to

lay a credit for saying, thank you very much for the work you've done on these conditions.

All right.

OK.

But I don't know.

I don't know that that's that much of a thing.

You ought to be too surprised if it does.

Well, if it does, it's just one of those things.

You ought to be right with it, because our guy doesn't can't take this kind of heat.

We don't want him around .

No.

And in any event, he can't change him.

He can't change the rest of you.

No.

So the only thing you can do is, if you want to present a new image, is to say, no, you can't do that now.

So you have to make some additions and changes right here in your state.

That's all it's about to do.

Well, you've got an animal, so you've got the congressional relations where you can change.

You've got press.

Those are the two big ones where you can make a change.

Yes, but you're going to need to bring them aboard as you can find the right people, and we'll think about who they might be.

Right.

Just bring them aboard, two or three people.

Just to be here.

People that can't .

That people that can do your training for you, that can do a lot of these jobs for you.

Yep, yep.

And talk about .

I have to articulate problems that can reestablish your communication with all segments of this society, because that's going to be critical.

You might even think, if you want to go this far, again, I don't know how far you want to go, but if you want to go this far, you might think about changing the Council of Economic Advisers or changing the Herb Stein.

No, I really haven't read it.

You haven't thought to read it?

No, I haven't worked on that.

Well, let me suggest, politically, it's the best thing in the world at this time.

I mean, we're slapped by the freeze zone, but the real problem, John, is economically, is where we are three months from now.

Well, let me suggest that you consider the possibility of a repositioning surcharge.

Now, this will make a lot of the country around the world mad, but you've got to have a bad quarter.

on fish and sodas, and your balance payments over $10.2 billion.

And at some point, we've got to get these countries on bilateral basis just to adopt policies.

They've got to buy America to equalize and separate.

You may have to start with some little country.

You may have to start with some South Asian country.

You may have to start with— Well, Canada's a big country.

—Taiwan, but Canada and Japan, they're two big ones, and you've got to somehow force them into—into fighting Americans to—to equalize them, because they can do it if they will.

But it's a—it's a hard thing for them to do—for them to do, but—

This would be enormously appealing to labor, because you do it in terms of protecting American jobs, and you don't get all this multinational debt.

You see, this tax bill is going to get all involved, and taxes multinational corporations, and are they exporting jobs?

You're going to have labor against you on all of this.

So there's a lot to be said, although it has its negative side, but there's a lot to be said for the imposition of a surcharge.

It's being pretty nationalistic in my opinion.

Well, we did it before, but too nationalistic.

But you may not be able to do it for too long.

This ought to be pursued more than waste price freeze.

I don't know.

Any waste price freeze has to end.

That's the problem.

And then you have a repeat of what you've got right now.

Unless it falls.

That's correct.

Unless you have a managed economy.

Thank you.

Which you're not prepared to do.

No.

Which you ought not have thought about.

We might do it.

Never.

Then I think you ought to go right in after a while.

After all, he was...

You had most of your troubles in the first six months of your first year, your second term.

It's a hell of a long time.

Until you get through it, you've got three and a half years to survive and to correct all these things, sir.

Well, you take the economy.

We've got to have our problems so the inflation comes down.

The second half of the year is going to be better.

I know it's going to be better than the second half of the year.

The real question is whether or not the second half of the year cools too much.

That's what I would say.

I really am more concerned about that than I am.

I know the inflation is a hot issue now.

I believe we've got a plan.

It's a hell of a hot issue there.

I guess we've all been well known.

Correct?

And people don't like the question, they're probably going to leave this money, or they don't have the money.

So that's the reason the wage price freeze is a problem.

So the surcharge statements are a possibility.

Looking at the personality, you would say that George,

It's really the best.

It just doesn't have that false.

You can't put it across.

No.

Great guy, but just can't put it across.

And, uh, again, depending on what your policy's gonna be, uh, if you're gonna ride this thing out, he's probably the best man that you can have to ride it out, to ride it out.

For example, he's so firmly believed.

or who's in the cabinet.

They have a feeling, I don't know if they're all in the field, corruption in the kitchen and so forth, and the only one who's out of the source is the executive.

But that's inevitable.

I don't want you to come in and run the domestic council first because we can't do that because he can't, he doesn't have the ability.

And second, he drives the cabinet right out of the damn wall.

But you know, he can't have two people move that down.

But nevertheless,

The fight is following your advice.

We had a member of the cabinet meeting you attended.

We followed up on that pretty good.

And I had, for example, Ash call every member of the cabinet.

And I said, now, what are your personnel models?

And I said, I believe we got that person if we could, unless he had an FBI record.

It was totally impossible.

That seems to have been working pretty well.

I've been in personal contact with about four of the two people on various little matters.

You know, apparently a meeting like that is more effective than you realize.

Oh, yeah, sure.

Sure.

The leaders, I've already moved there.

I've been in the conference.

First, you have my parts on this election commission.

Uh, but I've also talked to Jerry, to, uh, you about things that you do that could be helpful, and so forth.

Interesting enough, they all like carrots.

They don't want to change there.

I don't know.

They get very used to a man that's a certain sort of a guy that's too big.

I think what you really need there is a guy in the White House who's a big shot.

But out of that shot, you see, they want to have a feeling.

I ran into this almost every day.

They'd rather have a feeling that the congressional liaison guy works for them rather than for the White House.

See the point?

Very interesting distinction.

And that's why they look on the tenderness of their man.

Well, they told me.

Yeah, they do that stuff.

And I went over with them, and they said, well, my God, he's the best man we've ever had.

He's always going to come to our calls, and he does what we want.

So that's a hell of a question.

You don't need a better teacher than that.

What you could do is you could get a Johnny Berman to make the sacrifice, and he could lead an armistice in the park.

He's a bit of a great head man around.

I think there is the way that way you're

Sigler was a very tough one because of the lack of a substitute.

That job out there is the roughest job in the world.

I mean, that's a press conference every day, every day for a man.

And we do not have the team to give it to.

Sigler and I talked about it three days ago.

He brought it up.

I said, all right, let's get some names.

And you know, John, it's always the case here.

You've got to find names.

It's just hard to find names.

There's no doubt about that.

Let me, for your deliberations and your little private thoughts, let me try to characterize where you are in a little different turn.

Sure.

Watergates.

is a generic term now.

It encompasses a lot of things.

And I don't say this maliciously at all.

You see the individual.

What you have here, if it hadn't been mitigated, my judgment would have been something else.

Because there was almost a rebellion in the town among the press, Congress, and

trying to do bureaucracy against the...

The what?

The autocracy of your staff.

That's right.

I know.

Now... That's why.

That's why.

Not you.

That's why I didn't hire the mayor.

Well, I know, but...

But let me get it, Jack.

That is why, after we go through this action, we'll do a better job of it before it has to be done.

Yeah, that's right.

I think it has to be done.

It's a hard way to do it.

But I agree with you totally.

And this is the whole thing that's happening in the country right today, in the press here.

This is all part of it.

It's more than just working.

Hell, they can just determine it.

And of course, they haven't let loose now.

The truth of the matter is that the press is going to destroy themselves if they keep on.

Because they're going to overplay this thing.

But you've got some more damn rough days to come.

Sure.

Pretty bad news.

I agree with you.

possibly possibly yes just just you know they will not make cases against all of them except the one factor committee going to have those periods

so therefore i just said the committee will cooperate but we're not going to give them not a goddamn thing one thing we're not giving is any presidential papers that can't have a lot of money in the files we can never allow that correspondence but we're cooperating every way we can every way we can i think i need to hear it will be a blessing in disguise let them do it

But go ahead.

That's about all it is.

All I'm saying is there's more than one of you.

Right.

So you must correct it by doing more than actually watering it.

That's correct.

That's all I'm saying.

And this means that you have to restructure your staff to present a new facade.

Although it has to mean that I have to get out and say some things.

I can't do it now.

See, I'm stuck for two weeks.

Until that damn grand jury.

And then when they denounced it, then I heard these various, like, gentlemen, I'm not going to say anything.

I'm curious.

And I never want to speak on the issue, except, of course, to, you know, to sweep away anything that might have arisen with regard to it.

But, you know, today there's a hell of a lot of talk about resignations and impeachments and so forth.

Well, there are two things you can be sure of, but I'm sure of.

Number one, you're not going to resign.

Number two, they're not going to impeach you.

Those are two things I'm sure of.

So I think you can forget about that.

I don't think there's any more dramatic thing that you can do now.

I think it's a slow, tedious process of rebuilding

of re-building communications, and thus re-building the commons, in Congress and in the country.

And this might well start, just like Bill Cassidy said, a break, and a break, and a break, and a break.

It's just going to take time.

And I just think that any idea that we pull a kazoo here, and something spectacular is going to cure this stuff.

It's not going to cure it.

It's got to be a slowly building process, slowly regaining confidence.

main thing is to set the goal.

You're absolutely right.

And then achieve.

And then over a period of time, the attrition begins to wear over and then people get really tired of the craft and then begin to build in the other direction because people can think of other things.

That's what we have to do.

And that's what exactly I had in mind.

Believe me, when you come down to names, John, that gets terribly hard.

Well, again, yes, that's right.

And the only way you get names, Mr. Ferguson, that I know of,

you're going to have to be a part of that main thing, because you don't want to deal with them.

And for whatever reason, they don't make a difference.

You don't want to deal with them.

They're out for their good, better, and different health.

So you've got to get the Bryce Harlow's and Clark McGregor's and George Bush's

or whoever else around you, some of you, and talk about names.

Just say, who the hell do you all know across the country?

Who do you want to get to come in here and help?

To do A, B, C, and D?

And I don't think they're looking for three or four people, five at the most.

But you have to have some kind of a backup where you can call on people.

Let's assume you've got to have a new SEC channel.

Well, I don't know that you're going to have to have a new one.

Brad Foote made me in trouble for going to the restaurant.

Really?

I didn't know anything about it.

But I don't know that.

But I'm just saying that those stories were out last Friday in the story of China.

I think that's an accurate story.

But if that's true, you have to have a good top man for that job.

So

Part of this, you can go a long way for curing all of this by simply calling in these people and saying, who do you suggest?

Who have you got in mind?

Who can we call?

Who can we rely on?

Just Sunday, I spent an hour on the five o'clock here in Hale, and we found the dead at Jackson.

And I will say, and I mean, actually, I'm not as much help as there is a hundred other people, to be simple, because I don't have that kind of background with your Republican machinery throughout the country.

That's a good thought.

Good thought.

I can do that.

Actually, I have an Air Force shovel, and I've seen it designed yesterday.

I've seen it in court papers.

Well, Bo Carraway's going in for a good job.

I don't know if he's both right, sort of both of them.

Apparently he is, I don't know why.

But, you know, he's getting a little psyched about it.

Yes, I knew about it.

But you're just going to need this, because in your second term, you're going to get a high number of people in that group that are going to be leaving the church.

Sure, sure, sure.

It's going to be harder and harder to show.

That's right.

And you're going to have that happen to you in the next 18 months because they want two years

out in government, out of government, Claude, you're still even.

So you're going to have a hell of a rise.

They're going to have one hell of a time out of everyone getting into this administration.

I'll tell you, that's what it is.

You have to have a crazy goddamn festival thing where we try to be as good as there is.

Nobody's going to get near this White House.

They ain't going to get near it.

Never, never, never.

Well, this is one other thing, and I didn't say it in the cabinet meeting the other day, but the great advantage that a White House vice president as a general principal should never assume any operational function.

Right.

Never.

Right.

Policy decisions, yes.

Operational functions, no.

Because then you leave to your cabinets and to your agencies operational functions.

Then if something happens, you've got an expendable secretary or chairman or whatever.

But once you let the White House become operational, as it has been over the past several years, then it's tied directly to you.

That's why your domestic counsel ought not to be operational.

It ought to be a policy campaign.

It ought not to be promised to millions of political parties and so forth.

It ought not to get that type of operation.

in the white house i'm sure you make those decisions so that different people can do your training you obviously call the shots here

And if Donnie Barnes can help you do that, that's the sort of thing he could do with tremendous .

You're absolutely right, Tony, the way I saw the operation.

Then you're all in one separate room.

You've got somebody insulating you from death.

And then you just have to do this.

That was an interesting thing, Tom.

What did you say about that?

You said, I don't deserve violence.

I'm the president.

You resign.

All that sort of thing.

I killed you.

You face the problem.

I can't walk out of this office.

Good God almighty, I mean, there are too many things I've done, but also things to do.

I mean, who else is going to do it?

You walk out and say, now look, Ted, you take over.

How do you think that started cracking?

Well, of course.

Well, we got a bunch of people, and I said to them, you know, we talked about it.

I brought up a question yesterday.

I've been talking about it.

Talking about this Ellsworth thing.

Yep.

I had breakfast with a fellow this morning.

I told him, tell Sam Irving, I said, you all just keep this up.

And I said, if you're going to find a president one of these days, you're going to get a bunch of others.

I said, you're right.

Y'all talk about wiretaps and so forth.

I said, now, this little knife will cut both ways.

And I said, if you get liable to release the data on about 100 of these top Democratic wiretaps that's around here, these little wires and so forth.

I said, that'll really put a test in the air.

And so most of it had to go.

That's right.

You're right.

But make it big.

Well, I mean, here.

It was a shocker, just a hell of a shocker to think about who it is, which it had worked at for the last four or five years and just released it.

Did you see Johnson apparently did something to Hoover, to destroy all of his records.

And the rest of the Secret Service, which is smart.

Hoover did destroy them?

They can't lie.

and they talk about the god damn girl and the kennedy they can't they can't find either the kennedy people had the fbi files here and carter marvin watson that is the very first thing they took out they took out their complete fbi files now as far as he knows johnson's fbi files

Well, let me say this.

You, uh, I, I...

I do want you to know how I appreciate your leveling and playing it out there.

These are not easy days.

But I assure you, I did not come to this office for the purpose of allowing such a cold to the best of great scouts.

And there's only one characteristic that I find very important.

i i did not like to get rough but if they push too far i will but i have to do it in my own time that's right in your your own way your living was present we're all living now in a period of

of McCarthyism, and it's much worse.

It really is.

It's a hell of a frightful period because the press is so incredibly irresponsible.

I read a great old story on the other side of the other day about Mexico.

You may not have seen it.

Oh, yes, I saw it.

Sure.

God save the president from bringing a million dollars to the campaign.

It was a total, absolute lie.

And they couldn't find out.

All they did was ask.

They didn't want to.

No.

They just printed it.

That's right.

You know, if you were a client that says that you could sue them for a brother, you'd never sue anybody.

Well, look what happened to Los Angeles Times.

Lawyer's circulation in the United States.

Last Thursday, I guess it was.

Headlines.

Banner headlines.

Two columns deep.

Looked like it could have been bigger than the assassination of Kennedy.

Conley, Byrne, linked to probe.

20 years ago or more started representing god resources we represented god resources this fellow who gave us hundred thousand dollars is the chairman of good resources

But we don't represent.

Well, we represent him in the sense that he's churned Penn State.

But our former representative company, who was there as one of the executives, which was a contributor to the game of Penn State.

That's correct.

And that, therefore, is a provost group.

But he's got it all here.

We don't represent him.

Our firm is representing the corporation.

And it may well be, if you did it in that form, or if you took corporate funds, that, hell, we're going to be in an adversary position to him.

Because we're representing the company that stockholders, in effect.

He's got his own lawyers in this room.

But my point is, John, that what we have to do is not to kid and not to whine around and so forth.

You've just got to fight it.

You sure do.

Don't you agree?

Yes.

And I'm not sure yet.

I'm going to try to develop some kind of an offensive that you can take without a period to take an offensive.

Without a period to change, I see.

Without a period to .

I don't know what it'd be anymore.

Obviously, when the first half thing comes, this will help.

This is going to help.

No foreign policy thing is going to help.

First of all, you've got a month between that.

You sure do.

And I don't know what's going to happen in the next week or, I would hope, that we could get these indictments within a week.

You won't get them in seven, maybe two weeks.

I don't know.

The problem, too, that holds about to a certain extent is this damn special prosecutor thing, because, you know, they, uh, we've got to get Christopher Scherer's work through.

That's good to know.

Do you think it is, Mr. Scherer?

And I don't know.

They tell me he's a very able-bodied.

He sure is.

He's a quite partisan.

Apparently, he's very partisan.

But that's who he's going to be.

He has to be partisan.

Well, I extended it.

Kennedy and Tony

are mixing medicine now.

They had a big party last night.

Obviously, I didn't go for Bob Preston, but they were really working on this whole thing.

This was the theme.

They had a love song and so forth.

I don't think there's any question about it.

Last night, they were making up the ticket for Kennedy and Tunney for 76.

Obviously, Kennedy would have held on to Vice President before he stood.

So when you start zeroing in on people,

Of course you can't do that.

You might start looking at somebody and watching him.

I'm not very careful, but that's what I've been doing.

You can't use it to your service.

Oh well.

Who do you want to ask to go out and play?

But anyway, don't be discouraged now.

I'm a guy.

You know me.

Get in on that line.

Start the fire.

I'm not ever discouraged.

Thanks a lot.

Yes, sir.

Thank you.

Boy, give me a little shit on that ranch.

Yeah, I'm good.

This is a big shot.

But out of that shop, this is a big shop.

But out of that shop, they want to have a feeling.

You see, they want to have a feeling that this home should be safe.

I ran into this.

They'd rather have a feeling that the congressional home should be safe.

that's why

Well, there's so many.

There's so many.

I have a son.

And I went over with him.

I went over with him.

I thought he was the best man.

I said, well, I never am.

I thought he was the best man in the world.

He became a TARC.

I never am.

He's always been a TARC.

He does what a TARC told him to do.

So he does what a TARC president would want.

So what you could do is you could get a Johnny Burns and make a sacrifice.

What you could do is you could get a Johnny Burns and make a sacrifice.

He could lead an armistice.

He's a good person.

He's a great man.

I think there is the way.

Very common.

Because of the lack of a substitute.

Very common because of that job out there is the lack of a substitute job in the military.

That job out there, I mean, that's the greatest press conference job in the world.

I mean, that's the press conference every day.

Every day.

For a man.

And we do not have it.

I will.

And no doubt, and no doubt, it's always the case here.

It's always the case here.

We've got to find names.

Let me try to characterize where you are in a little bit.

Where you are in a little different turn.

Water gauge.

is a generic term.

It encompasses a lot of things.

And I don't say this maliciously at all.

And I don't say this maliciously at all when you see the individual.

What you have, when you see the individual, what you have here, if it hadn't been watergated, if it hadn't been watergated, my judgment would have been something else.

Because there was almost a rebellion.

uh, in the town, uh, in the town, when, when the press, press, Congress, and Congress, and finally, finally the bureaucracy, the bureaucracy, against the, against the, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh

No.

That's why.

No.

That's why.

Not you.

That's why I am living here.

Well, not you.

That's why I am living here.

Well, no, but...

But let me get it again.

That is why.

But let me get it again.

That is why, after we go through this segment, we will bury it all in here, this segment, we will bury it all in here, before it has to be done.

It has to be done.

Yeah, that's right.

Until the head, that's right.

Until the head turns, turns.

This is the whole thing that's happening in the country right today, in the press here.

This is the press here.

This is all part of it.

It's more than just work.

It's more than just working.

The press is going to destroy themselves, but it's going to destroy themselves if they keep on, keep on.

Because they're going to overplay, because they're going to overplay this stuff.

But I overplay this stuff.

But you've got to stop.

But you've got more days and more rough days to come.

Yes, sir.

Man, it's sealed.

Get my whole goddamn mind.

Except for what?

Well, it may be a big factor.

The committee wasn't happy with the hearings.

It's all sealed.

Man, it's sealed.

And it may be a question.

So therefore, I'm just sealed.

And it may be my whole goddamn mind.

Well, it may be a big factor.

It's all sealed.

It's not a goddamn thing.

Well, it may be a question.

It may be a question.

We're cooperating every way we can.

Right.

So you must correct it by doing more than actually watering it.

That's correct.

And this means that you have to restructure your staff to present a new facade.

Also, it has to mean that I have to get out and say some things.

That's right.

I can't do it now.

See, I'm stuck for two weeks.

I've got to tell them.

And then when they denounced it, then I heard these various, like, gentlemen, I'm not going to say anything.

I'm curious.

And I never want to speak on the issue, except, of course, to sweep away anything that might have arisen with regard to it.

But, you know, today there's a hell of a lot of talk about resignations and impeachments and so forth.

Well, there are two things you can be sure of, but I'm sure of.

Number one, you're not going to resign.

Number two, they're not going to impeach you.

So I think you can forget about it.

I think you can just have it.

I think it's a slow, tedious process of rebuilding

of re-building communications, and thus re-building the commons, in Congress and in the country.

And this might well start, just like Bill Cassidy said, a break, and a break, and a break, and a break.

And I just think that any idea that we pull a kazoo here at some big, spectacular, spectacular, and it's not cured, it's not going to cure.

And then achieve.

And then over a period of time, the attrition begins to wear away, and people get a little tired of the craft, and they begin to build in the other direction, because people think of other things.

And that's what we have to do.

And that's what exactly I have in mind.

And the only way you get names, Mr. President, that I know of,

You're going to have to be a part of that name thing because you don't want to deal with it.

It'll be a blessing in disguise.

They're good.

They're good, better, and different.

Now, so you've got to get it.

Go ahead.

That's about Clark McGregor.

All I'm saying is...

or whoever else around you, son.

There's more than one person, right?

So you might think, you say, who the hell is the director?

But they all go across a big border that has to be watered in.

Who do we get to come in here and help?

That's where it's at.

And ABCD, I don't think they're working with them.

And this just means that you have to restructure your staff, that three or four people.

...to present a new facade.

You have to have some kind of a backup where you can call...

Although it has to mean that I have to get out and say something.

That's right.

Let's assume you've got a new S.E.C.

hat going around you.

Well, I don't know that you're going to have that.

I've started two weeks ago.

Bradfoot may be in trouble.

Those are the best of them.

Really?

Yeah.

And then when they did that, I was like, I'm not going to say anything about it.

Period.

And I'm not going to speak on the issue today.

I kept those stories around that.

Of course, I tried to do it over time.

I was going to have to sweep away an accurate story.

But if that's true, we have to have a good top man for that job.

So part of it, you know, today, there's a hell of a lot to talk about.

So I think you can forget about that.

I think it's a slow process of rebuilding, of rebuilding communications, and thus rebuilding the commons.

in Congress and in the country.

And this might well start, just like we build houses, but it breaks and breaks and breaks and breaks.

And I just like it that any idea that we pull a kazoo here and something spectacular is going to cure this stuff.

It's not going to cure it.

And then achieve.

And then over a period of time, the attrition begins to wear over and then people get really tired of the craft and then begin to build in the other direction because people can think of other things.

And that's what we have to do.

And that's what exactly I had in mind.

And the only way you get names as far as I know of

you're going to have to be a part of that main thing, because you don't want to deal with them.

And for whatever reason, they don't make a difference.

They're out for their good, better, and different.

So you've got to get Bryce Harwood, Clark McGregor, George Bush,

or whoever else around you some of you can do and talk about things.

Just say, who the hell do you all know across the country?

Who do you want to get to come in here and help to do A, B, C, and D?

And I don't think we're looking for three or four people, five at the most.

But you have to have some kind of a backup where you can call on people.

Let's assume you've got to have a new SEC channel.

Well, I don't know that you're going to have to have a new one.

Brad Foote made me in trouble because of the best of them.

Really?

But I don't know that.

But I'm just saying that those stories were out last Friday in the story of China.

I think that's an accurate story.

But if that's true, you have to have a good top man for that job.

Part of this, you can go a long way for curing all this by simply calling in these people and saying, who do you suggest?

Who have you got in mind?

Who can we call?

Who can we rely on?

Just some of you.

I spent an hour over the five o'clock here.

I'm dead at Jackson.

And I will say in that connection, I'm not as much help as you are.

There's a hundred other people that we sent across the island.

We're going to have that kind of background with your Republican machine throughout the country.

With your Republican machine.

That's a good thought.

I can do that.

I'm here for a job.

I don't know

You're just going to do about it.

You're just going to defeat this because in your second term you're going to get a high number of people, a high number of people who are going to believe in this.

Sure, sure, sure.

It's going to be harder and harder.

You always have to believe.

That's right.

Because they want two years.

Out of government, Claude.

You're still out of government, Claude.

You're still even.

So you're going to have to have the right to care.

You're going to have to have the right to care.

Crazy guy.

Crazy goddamn festival.

We try to be as good as we can be.

Well, this is one of the things I didn't say in the cabinet meeting the other day, but in the cabinet meeting the other day, but the great advantage, great advantage that a White House construction, that a White House construction as a general principle should never assume any operational function, assume any operational function.

Right, no.

Right.

All right.

Operational functions, no.

Because they do to your cabinet, to your businesses.

Operational functions.

Then if something happens, you've got an expendable secretary or chairman or secretary or chairman or whatever.

But once you let people buy that house, you're going to have an operation, as it has been for the past several years.

Then it's time directly to you.

Directly to you.

I want to get your message out to the operation.

It ought to be a policy account.

It ought not to be promised.

You go tell whoever, you go tell whoever's got that particular legislation up, or you go tell, or you go tell John Schlesinger who's got the Corps of Engineers going to determine what amount of dams are going to be built there.

John Schlesinger who's got the Corps of Engineers going to determine what amount of dams are going to be built there.

Where are you going to fund it?

So far, where are you going to fund it?

So that different people can do your training.

You obviously call the shots here.

And if Johnny Burns didn't help you do that, if Johnny Burns didn't help you do that, that's a sort of thing he could do with tremendous ability.

You're absolutely right, Toby.

You want to solve the operations.

You want to step up and remove it.

I've had it with officers.

They're always officers.

They're one step removed.

Always one step removed.

You've got somebody, you've got somebody insulating you from death.

Insulate, insulate you from death.

And then you have to do this.

You just have to do this.

No, it's a baby.

You face the problem.

Like I did.

I walk out of this office.

Good God almighty.

I mean, there are too many things I've done.

There are too many things I've done, but also some things to do.

Some things to do.

I mean, who else is going to do it?

You walk out and say, now look, Ted, you take over.

I say, now look, Ted, you take over.

How do you think that's right?

Crouching.

Yep.

Uh, the day-dome was on, uh, the day-dome was on about, about a hundred of these top of them, a hundred of these top of them, right, like wire tappings around here, these wire tappings around here, these little, little brass soles, and I said, I had a brass sole, and I said, I had a really big, I had a really good, I had a really good, I did, did the right, did the right.

And, uh, so, so, uh, most of it, uh,

That's right.

You're right.

Where did you see Johnson?

Apparently, apparently, they did summon Hoover.

Hoover summoned Hoover.

Hoover destroyed all of his records.

Destroyed all of his records.

And the rest of the Secret Service, the Secret Service, they're just smart.

They're just smart.

They can't find him.

And they talk about the gun.

And they can't find either.

They can't find either.

The Kennedy people hate the FBI files.

They hate the FBI files here and here.

And Carter Martin Watson, that is the very first thing that he took out.

He took out the complete FBI file.

The complete FBI file.

I'm sorry.

Main aisle, main aisle.

Well, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I.

I do want you to know how I appreciate you.

Leveling, leveling, playing it out, playing it out.

These are not easy days.

No, no, no.

I did not come to this.

I'm sure, I'm sure, I'm sure.

I do not like to get rough.

But...

If they push you far, I will.

But I have to do it in my own time.

That's right, in your own way.

Your living was present.

We're all living in your own way now, in a period of...

Your living was present of... of McCarthyism in...

We're all living now in a worse, great period of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of,

I don't know.

total absolute lie.

Well, look what happened in Los Angeles.

Last Thursday, I guess it was.

Headlines, all they do is ask.

Banner headlines.

Two colleagues didn't look at it.

They looked like they could have been bigger.

That's right.

People that assassinated.

Connolly, Berger, and Cern.

It seemed to probe.

My law firm, beginning 20 years ago or more, started representing, my law firm, beginning 20 years of resources, started representing GovResources.

We represented GovResources.

This fellow, Bob Adams, we represented GovResources.

This fellow, Bob Adams, who gave us $100,000, is the chairman who gave us our GovResources.

But we don't represent $9,000.

We represent, well, we, is to represent him in the sense that the chairman would do a resource.

But we don't represent the chairman.

But our formatter, the airport, what our representative, we represented in the sense of the churn company, who was there as one of us.

But our formatter, the airport, was an executive which was a contributor to the game.

That's correct.

And that, therefore, our representative for his company, the provost, who was there as one of us, an executive which was a contributor to the game.

But he's got it all here.

Raise your hand.

We don't represent him.

Our firm is working.

That's their corporation.

But he's got to say what we need.

If he didn't, or if he took corporate funds, then hell, we're going to be in an absurd rate of position.

To him, to our team, we don't work for him either.

My point is, John, what we have to do to heal.

Sure.

Because we're representing a company that's stockholders.

In effect, he's got his own law firm in this room.

But this is my point.

My point is, John, that what we have to do is not to cave in and not to wind around and so forth.

You sure do.

Don't you agree?

Yes and no.

And agree.

Yes and no.

And I'm not sure yet.

I'm not sure yet.

I'm going to try to go some kind of offensive that you can take without.

Offensive that you're appearing to take an offensive.

That you can take without appearing to take an offensive.

Without appearing to change.

Without appearing to rise.

Without a period of time, I don't know what I'm going to change.

I don't know what I'm going to be anymore.

Without a period of time, I don't know what I'm going to change.

Obviously, when the first thing comes, I don't know what I'm going to be.

This will help.

Hell no.

Obviously, no foreign policy thing is going to help.

When the first thing comes, this will help.

Hell no.

First of all, you've got a month between that.

Sure.

And no foreign policy.

You won't get out of that, son.

I don't know.

The problem, too, is that, I don't know.

The problem, too, that holds about to a certain extent is that, to a certain extent, is that, especially prosecutors, especially prosecutors, because, you know, they, we've got to get Christopher Scherer's work, because, you know, they, we've got to, we've got to get Christopher Scherer's work.

That's good.

Do you think that's fair?

And I don't know the truth.

They tell me he's a very able thought.

He sure is.

He's a quiet person.

Apparently he's very...

I don't know.

They tell me he's a...

He's a very able thought.

He sure is.

He's a quiet person.

Apparently he's very...

what that's going to mean, what that's going to mean, what that's going to mean, what that's going to mean, what that's going to mean, what that's going to mean, what that's going to mean,

uh, are mixing, uh, are mixing medicine now, medicine now.

Uh, uh, they had a big party last night.

Obviously, I didn't go for a big party last night.

Obviously, I didn't go for Bob Prescott, but, uh, Bob Prescott, but, uh,

They were really working on this whole thing.

This was the theme, they had a love song, and so forth.

The theme, they had a love song, and so forth.

I don't think you can see any question about it.

Last night, they were making up the ticket there.

Last night, they were making up the ticket to Kenzie and Tony.

for 76 obviously can't even have no one vice president before 76 obviously can't even have no one vice president before he sees through so they're they're dying a lot of it so they're they're dying a lot of this

That's right.

So when you start zeroing in on people, um, people, um, Christopher is getting mad.

You might have started looking at somebody, watching him.

Thank you.

Don't be discouraged now.

Be discouraged now.

I'm not ever discouraged.

Thanks a lot.

Thank you.

Give me a little shit on that.

Little shit on that.

Rashed.

Yeah, I would have had it.

I would have had it.