Conversation 919-032

Transcript (AI-Generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.

Now, Houston didn't cut it, I think.

Have you got to get Houston in?

We haven't had Houston in yet.

We'll have to get Houston in.

They didn't get Houston in, I think, Houston.

I'm just going to level with you as to what you've done.

As my recollection was, what Dan Little has done, all of us like you would help write you on that.

But the papers are dead.

What the hell?

Well, we haven't had any little problems around here, do we?

No, sir.

I'll be...

i'd rather have this than have a party yes strangely i don't know why but i mean this may all work for the better it may all work for the better it may be if we think it's an issue there can stand some pretty goddamn healthy finding i do too and i think i think this will

will become the bigger issue, and I think we'll be able to fight on this ground.

I relegate Watergate to the very incident, the bugging affair it was.

It explains a whole lot of things completely.

That's what we were going to do.

This was what you were trying to protect.

You see?

This type of activity.

So, it gives us a rationale.

Well, I'm sure it's damaging, but there's no more damage than everything else we have coming around here.

That's true.

You know what I mean?

Apparently a lot of the stuff in there is pretty good.

Yep, there's some good stuff in there.

And in the light of this, the only bad guy is D.B.

Yeah, in the light of this.

They say that the President has gone too far, and it's bad, but that's a...

Nevertheless, Walters still testifies.

Actually, there were four things I think covered in that meeting, and Walters unfortunately didn't recollect them and didn't put them in.

But one was...

Was there a tie-in with these Cubans, the Bay Pays?

Were we going to get them to cover that kind of a mess?

B, were we getting into internal security actions by this group?

Those two things, you see, that makes the reason for that meeting a little bit...

It makes it absolutely clear.

Hunt was a former...

Yes, I know.

Well, I'm sure that's the reason we had to meet, you know, because, as I said, if we were going to send up something of faith at Watergate, we wouldn't have had Elms in the Goddamn Cave.

That's true.

You know, you would not have Elms.

And if you were having an admiration, Bob wouldn't have had one, because he knew, you know, how much mercy was left in sight.

That's right.

You're going to pick up a lot of support on this.

They're going to have to rally to your support.

That document has got Helms' signature on it, Hoover's signature on it, Giles' signature on it, Bennett's signature on it.

Very responsible agencies.

Yeah, but not approving all this stuff.

No, sir, but they recommended the rules.

Including Reagan?

Yes, sir.

Everybody said Hoover.

He demurred on that.

But the rest of them were right there.

NSA was urgent.

And to save their own hides, the bureaucracies in that part of it has got to support you.

I hope it'll get us a lot of people to hang on back.

That's very important.

But we might as well take it because, you know, he expresses the case more candidly, properly than you can, or more graphically.

what's he talking about in other words he talks about how damn bad the situation is and he says this is a hell of a time for hoover to get squeezed he said in his younger days he burglarized everything around and had no compunction and the risks are so great now somebody ought to kick his ass and kick him who's president that's sort of like written to him written to harlem

i don't know you know i got it the memo said this package was apparently somehow got over into the justice department i don't know how soledad and it was dean worked on the package soledad's mom who is in the legal counselor's office

As justice, there's a note in your mind.

He sent this package to Dean.

He said, I found this over here.

It's excess to our needs.

I said, if you do what you want to do with it.

I see.

That's where it came from.

When did he send it over here?

It was in the fall of 1970.

My recollection is all that stuff stopped.

We stopped the army, using the army for purposes that are not...

Yes, it is.

In fact, I wonder sometimes...

I don't know how to handle it, except, frankly, the first thing, whatever it is, whatever it is, I prefer to have it with mists than to have it in the water.

I must say, it consumes it across the heart.

He sent this back over here to John Dean on March 3, 1950.

March 30, 72?

Yes, sir.

Oh, last year.

Last year he sent it back.

Well, it says, the attached number I'm going to turn up in our house cleaning operation is being returned to you for whatever this decision you wish to make.

So, Dean, that's his trunk car?

Yes, sir.

That's his trunk car.

Oh, we thought he had one.

Yes, sir.

The right one.

We didn't think of the right one.

We didn't think of it.

That's what he thinks.

That's true.

Run as low as they come.

Well, let me ask you this.

Who's got them now?

The judge?

The judge has them.

And Irvin?

The district attorney has them.

And Irvin has them.

We'll never get them.

I already know I've got the call coming in.

I have to talk, but I know Irvin's going to refuse to let them go.

Have you got excuses?

I know Irvin is going to refuse to let them go.

Why do you have them?

They're here.

i sent the nsa people up who were in charge of this type of classification to try to work out with him that he would give them to them for storage this basically is

it's not mr president no i'm just saying at the moment it is not a campaign practice but my my point is that uh that we have to be prepared i'm not suggesting we're not better prepared but i'm trying to see how we uh what should we do

I went in and saw two things here before we do anything.

First, we've got to find out what activity has been done, what was actually done.

Two, we have to sort out the linkage between this organization and the authorities.

Because I think we had some lower levels of some of the things that we did.

John Mitchell was involved in both.

There's a point really where the techniques

overflowed in the political ring.

And I think we have to separate out the two.

The things that were authorized by the U.S. and the things that were not.

The Watergate was not.

And I think what else they need, we have to cut the line here and make that distinction in the presentation.

Even though Hunt, we don't know whether Hunt ever worked on this type of question.

the product went to justice in park to photograph from the saint charles the product went into justice whatever they produced went into internal security division in justice that's where the product went because they were essential and they have a an analysis group thing

that analyzed the incoming product.

And this was one of the big frictions between Marty's office and the Bureau.

I can't see now.

I never quite understood what it was.

But this was one of the big frictions.

The Bureau was...

I'd like you to do this.

To follow through.

First, I have to find out from Marty, or first Houston, I mean, he'll know what happened.

We'll get him back to you.

Yeah, Houston, and say what the hell happened to this stuff.

uh we had a hell of a problem i had this would be going on did you ever

Uh, no, I didn't, sir.

I knew that there was a... A plan.

I see.

I knew it was an interagency group.

Yeah, but I'm not an agent.

I'm not an agent.

But one of my last guys knew what was going on.

I didn't know they were breaking into private residences if they did.

That's my whole point.

It's a great big scheme here.

But my point is, they have to have proof.

Whoever takes this on a set of proof.

Before we go out on something like this, let us be sure that we see what they've done.

We'll see what they've got.

You see my point?

I think the point is, though, that if you say...

There was nothing, or there was this only.

We've got to make darn sure that's all.

We've got to be absolutely correct.

My point is, let us not assume that because there was a big plan of this sort in the government, that the opposition now has a great number of cases like the Pike Act was bugging.

They would have the goddamn things out.

now that's my point i think so that's i don't think they know i really don't think they know of any specific instance and frankly i'm not sure there was even one my feeling is that this is one time an old man hoover in his village

Now, question expressed, we don't know who approved it.

I'm under the impression, and these papers don't reveal, who had the approval authority.

If it was Mitchell... Mitchell Wickel was out as Attorney General then.

Yeah, he was out as Attorney General.

No.

Dick wouldn't have done it.

Dick wouldn't have approved it.

Never, never.

Never in a thousand years.

Look, let me tell you, for Christ's sakes,

I was thinking in terms of the fact, even if they had presented it to him as a part of this plan, perfectly legitimate, somebody presented it, I doubt it would have proved it.

It doesn't say, Mr. President.

I don't know what the procedures were because the document is that the rule of the approval authority is not in there.

Who can you ask?

You've got to ask Houston.

I can ask Houston, Marriott, and frankly, Bill Sullivan.

Bill Sullivan's all right.

He's got 2,000 votes.

All right.

We'll get on that right away.

Yes.

Second point.

I would not make, I would not make the frontal assault on this, I have a feeling, I have a feeling about how to act.

I would not make the, this is a, this is an intergovernmental thing.

Erwin has got it.

Now,

Mind you, you've got one or two ways to go.

We didn't go out and say, look, we've got to put our hands in the cookie shopper and here's what we can do.

Or he may have to make the move.

Now, my point is, Ervin does not have within his committee his authority.

He can make the move outside.

Dean may testify.

What I'm getting at is this.

You want to assess the timing?

I don't want to assess the timing, but I also want to assess what was done.

Because Ervin coming up and saying, well, here's a great big goddamn plan, is one thing.

heard him going up and saying here's a big plan for a lot of things he's done something else so therefore let's see what the first let's see what the what the damage is let's see what was done i think the defense is a very non-productive thing also i think it has he may know whether anything was produced

those are the only people i know you can trust the other thing is that uh i don't think that in terms of the better thing to do here rather than at this point

rather than at this point say, well, the president ought to go on and try to find a national television and explain to the American people what they're actually trying to do in this instance, you know, which, of course, raised an issue that never thought of at this point.

The thing to do is to play this in terms of, you know, let it ride with them.

Let's see what they do.

Let them get out a little of it.

Let the instrument go on with them.

What I'm getting at is this.

They will try, in my view, as they use it, will cripple it.

They'll try to cripple it.

I don't think, I don't think, I guess I don't think they'll put these papers on us like that.

Because, frankly, they're classified papers.

They've already ruined some of this.

I couldn't understand the intensity of those wiretaps of 1967.

This is 20 years now.

It also explained the call that Henry got from the New York Times.

Yeah.

Uh, there's just some... Well, yeah, I have that.

Fine.

All right.

That's it.

But my point is...

So that is it.

What I'm getting at is that...

might feel that a better thing to do is to just to put out a uh that you can prepare he's probably the best one with your supervision a white paper that's what i suggested a white paper right now the moment that it comes out say now this is let's knock this damn thing off now we'll do that now we'll depend upon the intensity of the debate get on the other hand urban and all

Do elevate it to the, you see what I mean?

Yes.

Leave the responsibility for leaking this stuff out be theirs.

I don't mean, I don't think we should go out and anticipate and look and say, well Dean had materials here and here is what was in it.

God damn it, it is confidential information.

It is top secret information.

And at best, then, you can be in a position of attacking her and, you know, or revealing.

What do you think, John?

I just say, well, see, and maybe I didn't make myself clear.

I only, I contemplated that they would get information out before you went, Mr. Russell, not you to go first.

Yeah.

That's what I thought.

That wouldn't make sense.

All right.

The way they will do it, you see, is to leak through the papers and so forth and so on, and there'll be a great interest in the press.

And then, at an appropriate time, I may have to and will take it on front of me.

On the interest, and I'll say, here's the situation, and here's what we're trying to do, and here's what was done.

And it was all done under the law.

I guess burglarizing would be under the law.

No, sir.

It would not be.

Is that in the paper?

Yes, sir.

Very clear.

It's laid out in there that it is illegal, you know, this sort of thing.

So that's the one we're going to have to get.

Well, how do you know that?

Sir?

I mean, I don't know.

It was, that's the very extraordinary circumstances.

One step short of a total insurrection, just about the action was taken.

in the national security system.

Justifying the policy approval was never implemented.

Well, I don't know.

I think we ought to think.

Give some thought to wrapping

into this and justify it.

We've got a major leak there.

We've got a threat to national security.

It's easier to wrap it in there, Mr. President, and hang it on this hat in the whole case than to have it been intercepted.

I think we may want to think about whether we don't put this one under the umbrella.

We'll have to take a look.

It may be that it would be better to put that one under the umbrella.

Now then, he admitted that we approved illegal activities.

That's the problem.

Yes, sir.

Let's see if there were any other before we... Let's see if there are any others.

Can I say it's one to consider?

Yeah.

But we have to look at it.

I know that a psychiatrist was trying to be part of this deal.

No, but it was apparently, Croke was apparently connected with the... With the White House?

With this type of deal.

And with the White House.

We've got your letter to it.

What's that?

It could have meant precisely, you know, your letter to Mr. Hoover telling him to...

This is what Croke informed, you know, this gentleman.

And it appears that you were referring...

to a group you established here to monitor this type of situation a year after this policy went into effect.

That was a year after this paper was approved.

Now, I think there's one other thing we must watch, and I think we're going to have to put out some tea lists to find out about.

We remember how the Ellsworth Papers were placed.

The New York Times took these things.

putting together their serialized study.

From the push we've had to the press.

We have to be very careful to keep an eye on it, to make sure that we're ready to move if that thing goes.

But I think we ought to kind of get the field and see if they're going to play this kind of game.

That would work to create quite some publicity.

So we should keep an eye out to see if that sort of thing is being done now in the media.

Because, you know, they can pretend to hold documents and work on their stuff in advance, as a typical congressional committee report, you know, work out what the media of their time scale, their plan, plan of operations and all that.

We could assume that possibly a copy of the documents given to Dean might have been available at times and so on.

He's pretty well covered now.

See, he's got them to three places.

He's got them in the U.S. Attorney's Office.

He's got them on the Hill.

He's obviously got them back in the bureaucracy.

This gives him some cover for Lee.

You know, he couldn't do it very well.

Well, my point is, my point is, I don't believe that we...

I don't believe, I mean, that what you may see is to pick up the time on Sunday morning and see the whole goddamn thing.

We don't want to get caught by surprise, is what I'm saying.

I agree.

We want to be prepared, and we want to keep our eyes and ears open to see if we can get some feel for how the thing is being played.

And how they're going to play it.

I think we need to get the feel for that.

Interesting thing, that whole paper was approved by all those clients.

They said two would be murdered on one.

Who would be murdered on two items?

On the breaking and uttering and the increased satisfaction.

Those were the two that would be done by him.

He said he didn't care if the other agents did any of it.

But he said not by the Bureau.

Not by the Bureau.

Well, the other agencies are great.

The others?

Yeah, yeah.

Time is wasted here.

It's a quarter to four.

Let's see what you can do in terms of finding out what the facts are.

I'll get right on then.

Who's the first person you could call?

I'll call Bob first.

He's local.

Bob's local.

When you call him, of course, some of the patients have enough problems.

uh who is the one that invests more this is what happened i think houston

Houston.

Is Houston out of town?

Yes, he's out in the Midwest.

I thought he was in the Midwest.

I'll find him.

Sullivan.

some of them will have a pretty good afternoon mr president well get on him second i'll get on him and him right away and i get on houston i call it i'll get on houston and marty will put up this you know well yeah he might we might we'll save marty for last save marty for last but would you start us right away

I've got to see Schultz.

I'm going to see him for a minute now because I've got to see Schultz for a while.

But in the meantime, that's the only plan.

I guess what we have to do is just say yes.

I don't know.

Let me tell you something.

I don't like burglary and that sort of crap in there, and it looks like police state stuff, but let us face it.

If they want to make an issue, if the earth at all times want to make an issue out of a plan we have to avoid domestic insurrection,

I don't know why either.

I think we just have to fight it.

We just have to fight it.

Let me say, you know, I've been through all this with Senator Irving, on this precise point.

And this was the 68th rise.

And my job was to try to get him to understand the environment that existed when Washington was being burned down.

The use of military people for intelligence collection at that point.

He and his entire committee were totally insensitive.

So they played the civil liberties.

They played the civil liberties.

I'd say we had no small problems.

I was kind of relieved this morning when I heard about the Watergate papers.

And yet I'm not so sure.

I mean, I try to always find the better side of a picture, and sometimes it's the better side.

But isn't it better that it's this rather than wiring crap?

Or is it?

I just don't want wiring stuff on those files.

I think we have to think very hard before we do any public revelations.

That's what I think.

Let me write this up.

Do you think that we cannot hold on to Walter's temperament?

I mean, he's, uh, uh, the court did not let him hold on to his temperament.

I guess we're pretty good at that.

put this on and then put crow's thing under it

And what did Walters think of it?

Well, basically, it doesn't really fit.

I don't think the Walters thing had a hell of a, hell of a, look, most of the, the questioning of Walters had, didn't have a goddamn thing to do with this thing.

The question, I mean, I mean, what I mean is, Bob and John talking of Helms and Walters had to do with why they, they were trying to find out whether or not the CIA was involved, and they were hoping like hell they were, but they weren't.

Now, that's just what happened.

And that, and it's so easy to get around that there are several problems.

I wouldn't put it under that.

I don't want to talk too much about it because I think there's a tendency here to try to make this into a massive thing.

I would rather, I think it's better to keep it, keep it a little bit more confused.

Now the program, I don't think there's any reason for us to say it takes the heat, it takes the heat on the program.

Not very well.

The Krogh thing, I am sure, is not part of this.

You see my point?

This was a, the Krogh thing was a separate White House operation to handle leaks.

Erdogan has said that Krogh exceeded his authority on that particular one.

Right.

All right, now we come to this thing.

This presents problems because it's a big paper segment.

We shall have a program that will do this, that, and the other.

Now the real question is not the paper.

the real question is what the hell was done under the data now if and i'm not sure about this but if what was done was miniscule hell i would be standing if i regret the last one day i saw

Let her come out with it.

Let him come out with it.

And we just flat and blandly say, yes, this was agreed by all the agencies involved.

But under the circumstances, despite the fact that it was agreed, the actions taken were of this period.

And I do it basically with a white paper.

rather than a national 9 o'clock television thing.

You see, everybody gets so excited about this, saying, I've got to take this thing on.

I can't appear to be there just being in battle rattle on every one of these goddamn issues.

Now, I still do, but I'm not trying, I don't think I'm being hilarious about this.

Sure, Ervin is a nut on this subject.

And Dean said, isn't it terrible they had such a plan?

Well, goddamn it, it wasn't terrible to have such a plan.

students were being killed in school.

And I don't want you to reassure me on something you don't believe, but my own view is, I still say, looking at these papers, I've never shot them.

These, what that is, is a plan for the purpose of domestic security.

Domestic security involving, and there were foreign operations, foreign support of these damn things.

Right?

Exactly.

and all the agencies of the government were to be coordinated and a broad man at home.

See, they did an original study that was a total fake, and I remember that, and that's when the Uber was called to do that, and there just wasn't nothing, nothing studied.

Then, I think it would be in those lines to go over to get some goddamn action.

We weren't fine then.

With Weatherman and all these people who were tearing up the goddamn city.

You know, memories are short, Mr. President.

Oh, god damn.

This was one hell of a place to be around about May of 1970.

This was something in the action plan, which was basically the attendance plan.

And we had a situation in which there were students killed in school, and the city of Washington was torn, torn up.

There were, you know, god damn it.

Maybe one of ours is right, this will be the thing that they'll try to say this is the ground for impeachment of the president.

Well, he is in a very positive position.

I mean, he defended the army in his involvement, so he's extremely sensitive to sensitivities.

I think he's a little, if anything, oversensitive.

I think so.

Oh, but let's not take a hard look at that.

You're not, you're not coming around to the reservation, are you?

Listen, men respect.

This is what we want.

If they step out with irresponsible charges on that, the one thing that we have to be careful of is that they can't say, not only did they set up the apparatus,

You mean that basically the watering buggers were set up under this apparatus?

So yeah.

That is what happened.

Now I know goddamn well it didn't.

We have got to be sure that we separate, separate and cut them off.

That there can be no leaks.

That's one of the reasons why the Walters conversation, the Walters-Helms conversation was terribly important.

To be sure that the CIA was not involved in this thing.

See my point?

You see, poor Bob is really quite discouraged.

I talked to him this afternoon.

I mean, this whole thing got him quite, quite very hurt.

His family doesn't believe him now.

And, in fairness to the guy, we see a strange linkage between the two in a, in a psychological sense of, hell, of course they're checking to see whether C.I.A.

was involved in the war.

He had a goddamn idea.

Elizabeth, isn't he taking that line?

I mean, I know it must be discouraging, but basically, his line, I told him to check the goddamn thing to see if the CIA was, you know, to check to see whether the CIA, because there were CIA people.

That's the line that you take.

He says, yeah, and he doesn't believe in life.

Well, you see,

Incidentally, he also said this.

He wanted you to know that his lawyers have been working with Bazar.

And he may have reported that Bazar is the best they've worked with.

A.

And he has full confidence in Bazar.

You know, the thing, the trouble with it, God damn it.

Way above Christ.

Yeah.

And the Red War was...

Put it, and I'm sure it was innocent.

I mean, he had no...

He's trying to help you.

I know.

Well, he did help you.

He wasn't explicit enough about it.

Bob said there were four quads covered at that meeting.

A was Russ Bain-Pig's woman.

There's going to be a problem here.

I'm going to try to all see how you got here.

But B wasn't in any way tied into the internal security committee operation that was going on, which would have been, you know, could have uncovered a hell of a mess for the security of the country, not because it was normal.

But you see, the way Orders portrayed that to the committee, and in his affidavit was, that the only purpose for that meeting was to go over and tell Gray to cool it.

And that's what, that's what promised him.

Now that, that he'll manage when he has to talk about it.

I think he'll be recalled before the very jury to explain this.

See, he got away with it very lightly the first time around and explained it accurately, but they didn't probe.

Now, you know, it wasn't... Now, I'll probably take a call back and be sure of it.

Before John was done and he conveys it to John, I got it.

I understand it totally, but they just... And we're going to back them, but they don't understand that.

back into the hills.

I mean, hell, I don't know what the hell the score was there.

Of course they went there.

They told the grand jury that, too.

And they should.

To see if there was any CIA.

That's right.

Because he said, not to see if there was any, but to ensure that the FBI thought that there was.

Yeah, well, that's me and Dee Walters.

We'll get this worked out.

This is the kind of union I don't want to worship that you put up with, but it's all going to work out.

Now this thing may be, if they make a mistake on this issue, it may be the issue that will sweep the whole country in the mud.

It won't sweep the country.

No.

Just, it'll stir up the press again.

That's all about all their terrible concern about civil liberties and all the rest on the other hand the country is.

I mean, it may be required sometimes.

I don't rule out it.

It may require my going on to explain what the hell we were doing.

I mean, why we did it.

Depends on how.

But I'll tell you that.

I'm not afraid of disturbances.

Huh?

This is a monster that gave you a lot more to serve.

Why?

Why not?

Because I think every civil libertarian knows the mass majority of the people in this country

That is what the election is all about.

Back with you on our hands, and you're not being a burden to people who are sick and tired of us.

It's all good.

You see, the weak-minded are a part of the fact that we talk about the use of the legal metrics and so forth.

But in a very esoteric sense, he said, in a very esoteric sense,

I'm sure when we start discussing it, we're going to find that there wasn't a goddamn thing done because we didn't have the capability or the kind of operatives who were even capable of doing it.

It just was basically, in my case, I had started with, and had to be started with, telling Crowe to talk to Ruler, you know, which I did.

And ordering Bob and John to go in and talk to the two, to Waller's and Helms, which I did.

And Crowe did his plan, which I did without it, I must say, without looking, checking it out in my eye.

I tended to see whatever, birds or anything like that.

Goddamn, we didn't even think of such things.

Every man in government responsible for this area, the Inter-Departmental Committee, unanimously except for two recommendations in which there was only one dissent vote.

Well, he said it, but the dissenting vote was curiously not to be dissented in two things.

For the Bureau, but not for the others.

I do nearly believe that that issue, even though it would cause great gas pains by that number of people, these insane bastards who are working on hard-hitting and maliciousness, you've never had an issue with that even before.

That's been our problem.

We haven't had an issue with it.

To build support, we've been in a totally negative defensive position.

If they leave it that way, and it turns out that way, I think we could sweep the basket from under it.

But that's a decision that I wouldn't go to any game plan saying it would be a white paper or a speech or anything.

I think the result is very good, but I think the reaction could easily go to a

to say that got her it's got this and now this is all going to come out and so forth and so on and so let's be prepared for the president to go on national television and attack them that's not that marketing

I don't think so.

I think we need to.

I'd be sure they can.

I think what we have to do is to keep these things separate.

So if you'll have that in mind in talking to us, I agree.

That's what I was saying.

There are two points.

A, we have to find out what we've done before we get anything.

That's right.

And B, there's any way anybody can look.

If Irving could ever find that, I don't know.

My question is that if we started to keep it on that... Yeah, and it'll, it'll, it'll, it'll...

You know, I think this is... What is?

What happened?

It's like those word tests.

We broke them in.

The second was legal action.

Now, this is legal action.

It's controversial.

Oh, okay.

Legal and illegal.

Yeah, that's what's wrong with legal.

That's our problem here.

But what does that have to do with constitutional law?

Of course, because we've been arguing that for 20 years, and that's not how we're going to process the early effectiveness.

No, we can say that this was the purpose.

This was action only for the purpose of maintaining law and order, preserving the security of this country at a time of great threat, which was disorder of the streets and bloodshed.

Sure.

Well, we don't have anything that comes.

But it may be so down to the early...

They don't close it.

They'll try to do it.

Well, put yourself in the position of higher counsel.

The rest of the schools are all eager to power you over.

I don't think that's the point, I think.

he had already told them the essence of what it was.

Probably his worst condemnation.

Yeah.

And therefore that's why they kept playing up with the papers.

Conceived, George.

What is your time this evening?

Why don't we take a go on our early dinner out in Sequoia?

Cold.

Cold, Bob.

I don't know if you have it in my hand, but I'm going to give you this shirt.

It doesn't seem like we always have problems, so let's see what this one is.

Well, it has nothing to do with Watergate.

Let's start with that.

Nothing to do with Watergate, unless somebody draws an interest of connection.

What it is, basically, Mr. President, is your interagency intelligence group plan for supplementing domestic intoxicants.

Right.

Plus eight documents.

about the which include a summary a memorandum on the recommendation the memorandum back from bob stating the method of approval and implementation one memorandum analyzing mr hoover's objections methods of approach

Some of the language is quite inflammatory, particularly one of Houston's memorandums.

So, very unfortunate.

I think it presents a serious problem.

As you know, I guess, well, by far the most serious thing is the approval of the surrogate's entry.

which is described in Houston's words of a short burden and illegal if it's not excessive.

And Hoover objects on that ground.

But seeing clearly the advantages outweigh the risks, Hoover should be overruled.

It's in language that will be quite inflammatory.

Of course, this has been delivered.

This is Houston's language, not mine.

This is Houston's language.

But Kalderman going back and saying, your recommendations are approved by the president on all counts.

There was only one recommendation that was disapproved, and that was the use of military undercover agents.

That one turned down.

Now...

i think frankly that this will be used by the committee really to supersede the whole organization oh it puts a new light on the problem i would suggest it be handled in a much different fashion i think you can't let this dribble out

It's my own belief that you have to make your case for doing it, and to the environment that it was done in.

I definitely lay it on the record, and there are a number of ways you could do it, with something approaching a safe paper.

Perhaps I was astounded by you, whether with the leadership or otherwise.

I believe it should be accomplished at this point by relaxation to the maximum extent.

executive privilege because you can't have the plan and then have anything that appears to cover up i think we should work up into the maximum extent possible on across the board or in some way we need to find it's related to this or the watergate effect we can't relate for example we can't relax with regard to water we're going to have to

The court's going to overrule that because it's tough for them to sign.

The court is not going to permit it.

The only way you hold it is by having it in your possession.

And to defy a court order at this point would be...

So, I really think that the only choice is to really go out and get this thing hit on.

It may precipitate action by the House.

If so,

You should make your case in the strongest possible terms, give everybody all the ammunition you can to help you, and then let's go fight.

Just take them on and fight this thing head on.

Actually, it gives us a better case because the issue can now turn on the threat to national security.

During this period, the document is a good one.

It lays out the threat very well.

I think we should get on it just as fast as we can.

We should use, we should get these people in here to help put it together.

We should get past whoever's going to write it and start really pulling this thing together.

We should get the

Bill Ruckelshaus in here and see if he can tell us how much activity took place under this.

Hoover was in charge.

Hoover was in charge generally, but Ruckelshaus is going to have to look at the records and see.

I doubt he very much was done.

I know Hoover was very, he was reluctant to do something.

That was the problem here.

I had one meeting in the office where I had a step and I never heard about it again.

But as you know, people follow up.

That's true.

And I think we won't...

It's probably very limited.

I know now that I was seeing intelligence before gathering from this operation.

They couldn't have done much because there wasn't... What did the intelligence force for?

They used them in connection with particular demonstrations.

Any time we considered using troops, they actually would deliver to me.

We had this big thing with the urban... What was this?

The purpose of this document was to give you a study showing you what the threat was, what the present capabilities of intelligence were, what the shortfalls were, to review all limitations existing then on the intelligence community, and to give you the pros and cons of changing those limitations, of what needed to be effective.

Then the implementation went forward with all the recommendations on extended electronic surveillance, increased use of agents of penetration,

I was elected internal security target here in the country.

Was that all approved?

Yes.

That was all approved.

He said the president approved the recommendations.

The recommendation was for you to sign off on each one.

Holderman's memo says, you prepare an implementing document saying the president has approved of an S-H-L-M like this, except the president signed it.

You did not sign the voucher flag.

I did not sign the voucher flag.

No, sir.

What did I sign?

You signed nothing in this package.

I don't think you can walk away from this.

And, you know, we're not, we're talking about a scrap.

You go out with the best possible case we can put together on the issue, you know, and, recognizably, it's going to be a major controversy.

We don't know what happens, though.

But I think we ought to really go after it.

Well, for instance, the House will take it, or the Congress.

But I think we should be prepared, once you lay out the case, to then take it to the battle.

I mean, we've got to anticipate the battle.

Load up and go for it.

And discredit it.

But at least we've got a case to make now.

And it will always kind of work.

If you make your case, and I really think it will.

Yeah.

Well, as a matter of fact, I don't ever remember hearing about surreptitious entry of selected targets here and there.

I mean, that sounds like a gobbledygook from

bureaucracy or something like that but i'm sure it was there you know how this would have happened well i i think the thing that we let sort two things out i agree with us this is an issue that now we know why the goddamn committee is

because they had this all the time they didn't have they they didn't have the documents they've been waiting on this they've been hanging back you know this is urban steel secretary i mean this president he's civil liberties man yeah we'll hear police state nazism everything come out of this so we

I think he held him after all that, but I think you're wrong.

Well, perhaps you're wrong.

I'll be philosophic about it.

Now, the issue here is that there are two things that have to be ironed out.

One is that I'm going to have to make a pretty good case that we had Flabby ineffective.

internal security at a time when there was riots in the streets.

This was just after Cambodia, just after Kent State.

Right.

And secondly, you know, we've got the time and the strategy.

You can't go to this until you can get the lines carefully traced the best we can on the Watergate situation.

And certainly we can see the break-in of the psychiatrist's office.

Now he's got the last of that.

You know, you can't just fire that without the other.

You've got to end it.

You've got to tie it on.

I don't think we did.

I don't know whether we can avoid it.

I don't see.

I believe some of them have got to avoid it.

The president approved Reagan's psychiatrist on this.

Well, he did approve.

You didn't approve that specific one.

But, you know, the policies.

is here.

There may have been others we need to check.

Rapidly and secretly.

We need really a thorough search because at this time when you say, you know, if you want to go so far as to say I investigated and found out that there were three...

When did this, how long did this go on?

Mr. President, the unit, at least the intelligence unit that still exists, still exists.

Henry Peterson mentioned it to me this morning.

He didn't get into specifics.

He said that the damned operation they had over in internal security is still there, and I don't think it's any damned business of ours.

I don't know what to do with it.

It's just fighting for me.

At that time, I had read the documents, so I didn't really know what he was talking about.

Marty can tell us the most about it, I suspect.

Because he had the story false for so long.

He was the chairman.

Let me say this.

I wonder, though, if we have to go so far as to put a moment on the relaxation of executive privilege.

I just think we ought to go on a case-by-case basis.

Let me say this on K.K.

Lightfoot right here.

You don't think you can hold Walters?

No, sir.

I do not think we can hold Walters.

Yes.

They're demanding.

And our problem is, well, personally, it's not President Kentucky.

It's the CIE papers.

The next paper, we're going to have problems, and I've gone thoroughly into this business of we don't have cases on executive privilege.

We've looked hard at the attorney-client privilege.

and see where the court will allow them and where they will not.

Now, I talked to Chuck this morning.

You should know this.

Chuck would not like to be found by executive privilege.

He thinks he can do a tremendous amount to help me.

He thinks he can help more there by not being found.

I suspect, quite frankly, from talking to his counsel,

that he would seriously consider not abiding by it, even if he didn't give him away, because Chuck is convinced that he can help you.

He had a rumor that John Mitchell was going to say in this, as I told him, Chuck, I don't have any confidence in it unless you give me a solid source, that John Mitchell was going to

and say that he told you that the Democratic headquarters was going to be bugged before it was bugged.

And he said that he could rebuke that.

By conversations he had with you subsequently, which just clearly indicated you did not know

I don't believe that John Mitchell is going to say about anything like that.

I don't either.

And we discounted it.

But some of the conversations he had with you, he thought, and some of the events he transpired that he thought would be most helpful.

They do not, they will not hurt anybody except him.

There is some of them that will, with respect to the Watergate affair,

He says, we'll hurt Dean, they will hurt no one else.

And we went through with these enough, and as I told Al, I may be crazy, but I believe him.

Well, I think we're going to have the case with this put together.

a revelation of this as much as possible and that is going to create a storm particularly among the liberal element and I think to survive that storm to really combat it we cannot afford to appear to be in the position of withholding anything relevant

Nothing to do with this, however, nothing, nothing in this, let me say it, relates though to...

It doesn't, it doesn't.

Nothing in this relates to approving the water system.

That's true, Mr. President.

It matters, yes.

At the same time, the methods are so, you know that, I believe that.

I know it.

And, but the problem is we'll have one hell of a job, because that's in the program.

Sure, sure.

And I'm trying to think of our best case to put forward to make it sit.

And I think this should be laid out as we go through.

Basically, the whole purpose of this...

Now, the whole purpose of that meeting was it was all, I mean, they all got in there together and they were all trying to coordinate the whole damn thing.

That was my recollection and we put it over in charge.

No, I remember the issue quite well, but the kinds of things that were going on in those studies, we couldn't even get them to know because of restrictions that the FBI had to give it.

And I think in this case, you're going to find very little stuff.

I think very little stuff.

See, that's what we've got to do.

That's what we've got to do.

Before you go, before you go, before you go, I'd be prepared, but I think you're going to find Hoover.

And I think we won't.

Hoover is very, he promised he was reluctant to do something.

That was the problem.

Right, yeah.

I know now that I was seeing intelligence before Captain Price was in this operation.

meeting in the office where i they couldn't have said but i never done much because that's true and i think we won't it's probably very limited you know i know now that i was seeing intelligence report gathered from this operation

They couldn't have done much because there wasn't...

They used them in connection with particular demonstrations.

Any time we considered using troops, they actually would deliver two men.

We had two men.

We had this big thing with the urbanists.

What was the purpose of this document?

The purpose of this document was to give you a study showing this document was to give you a study what the threat was, what the present showing capabilities of intelligence were, what the short view, what the threat was, what the present faults were,

to review all limited capabilities intelligence were existing then on the intelligence community what the shortfalls were to review all limitations existing then on the intelligence community and to give you the pros and cons of change

give you the pros and cons of changing those limitations of what needed in those limitations of what needed to be effective be effective then the implementation then the implementation went forward with all the recommendations went forward with all the recommendations on extended on surveillance

Increased use of agents of penetration.

Increased use of the Bureau.

Startages entry.

Agents of penetration by the Bureau.

Startages entry.

I was elected in terms of security targets here in Congress.

Yes.

He said the President approved.

Yes.

He approved the recommendation.

The recommendation was for you to sign off on each one.

He said the president has approved the recommendation.

One, Haldeman's memo says you prepare an implementing document.

The recommendation was for you to say the president has approved it and let's handle it.

Sign off on each one.

Haldeman's memo says you can't have them like this until the president signs it.

You did not sign it.

You prepare an implementing document.

uh nothing in this package have them like this instead of the present time you did not sign the hold on not just blank i did not sign the option

I don't think you can walk away from this.

No.

And, you know, we're not, we're talking about a scratch.

You go out with the best possible case, which we just put together on the issue, just put together on the issue, you know, and recognizeably, you know, and recognizeably, it's going to be a major controversy.

It's going to be a major controversy.

We don't know what else to do.

But I don't know what else to do.

We ought to really go to the Congress.

But I think we should, well, first of all, we should counsel people to the Congress.

But I think we should be prepared once you lay out the case.

once you lay out the case, then take it to the battle.

To then take it to the battle.

I mean, we've got to anticipate the battle.

Load up and go for it.

And describe it, but at least we've got a case to make.

And describe it, but at least we've got a case to make now.

And it

It will always, and it will always try to work.

Try to work.

It makes your case.

And I really think it will.

Yeah.

And I... Yeah.

Well, as a matter of fact, as a matter of fact, I, uh, I don't, I, uh, I don't, I don't ever remember the ending of my, I don't ever remember the ending of my surreptitious entry of, uh, of, uh, entry of, uh, uh,

of selected targets here and there.

I mean, targets here and there.

I mean, that sounds like the gobbledygook from the bureaucracy or something like that.

But I'm sure bureaucracy or something like that was there.

But I'm sure it was there.

You know how this would have happened, though.

It happened, though.

It's very easy.

What's your opinion about it?

Well, I think the thing is, well, I think the thing is, now I agree with this, this is an issue that now we know why the committee is going to act and why it's going to act.

Because they had this all the time.

They had this all the time.

They didn't have it.

They didn't have the documents.

They didn't have it.

They didn't have the documents.

They've been waiting on it.

This is the material.

They've been waiting on it.

They've been hanging back.

You know, this is Irving Steele, the secretary.

I mean, this is Irving Steele, the secretary.

I mean, this is President Winston.

This is President Winston.

He's civil liberties man.

Yeah.

He's civil liberties man.

Yeah.

We'll hear... We'll hear...

Police state, police state, Nazism, Nazism, everything come out of the cellar.

So we, everything come out of the cellar.

So we, we.

Yes, sir.

I think he held me back.

I don't like what you're on.

I'll be in the bazaar in a moment.

Yeah, that'd be interesting.

I'll be in the bazaar in a moment.

Now, the issue here is that there are two things that have to be hung down.

One is that we had flabby ineffective.

We had flabby ineffective.

It was just after Cambodia.

Right.

certainly we can see the breaking, the breaking of the psychoactive songs, of the psychoactive songs, the lines, the lines of that, of that, you know, you can't just fire it.

Now, you can't just fire that, or that, or the other, or the other.

You've got to do something with it.

I don't think we can.

I don't.

Well, I don't know that we can avoid it.

I don't see that we can avoid it.

I believe some of it.

I don't see.

I believe some of it.

I've got to avoid it.

You didn't approve that specific one, that specific one.

But you know, but you know, the policy, the policy.

There may have been others, there may have been others we need to check.

We need to really need a thorough search, because this time when you say, this time when you say, if you want to go so far as to say, if you want to go so far as to say, I investigated and found out that there were three, investigated and found out that there were

That's the first, the unit, at least the intelligence unit that still exists.

Henry Beeson mentioned it to me this morning.

He didn't get into specifics.

He didn't stand up.

He didn't get over it.

It's still there.

I don't know what to do with it.

That time I had read the documents, so I didn't really know what he was talking about.

He was talking about it.

Marty can tell us the most about, can tell us about suspect.

Right.

Can tell us about suspect.

Right.

Because he had the story involved, but it's cut just so long as that.

He had the story involved, but it's cut just so long as that.

Where's the movie?

I do not.

Yes.

They're demanding.

And our problem is...

The next paper, we're going to have problem problems, and I've gone thoroughly into this business of... We don't have...

We look hard at and see where the court will allow them and where they will not.

Now, I talked to Chuck this morning.

You should know this.

What would not be found?

He thinks he can help more there.

I suspect, quite frankly, from talking to his counsel, that he would seriously

I suspect he should consider, quite frankly, from talking to his counsel, not about his mind.

Even if he didn't give him away, that he would seriously, because Chuck, he should consider his contents, that he, not to help you, he had a rumor that Chuck was not about his mind.

Mitchell was going to say it, even if he didn't give him this, as I told him, away.

Chuck, I don't have any confidence in it unless you give me a solid source.

It says John Mitchell was going to... Chuck is convinced that he can help you.

He had a rumor clean and say that he told you about the... that the Democratic headquarters was going to be bugged before it was bugged.

That John Mitchell was going to say in this... And he said that he could, as I told him, he could refute that.

By conversation.

Chuck, I don't have any confidence in him unless you give me a solid statement.

He had with you something which just said John Mitchell was not.

Very indicated you did not know.

No, I said what I believed.

John Mitchell better not say it like that.

I don't believe.

I

And some of the events transpired that he felt would be most helpful, that the Democratic supporters were going to be bugged before it was bugged.

And there is some of them that will, with respect to the Watergate, he said that he could, he could rebuke that.

I'm speaking strictly on fire matters.

By conversations he had with you subsequently, which just clearly indicated you did not know.

No, I don't believe that John Mitchell was ever going to say anything like that.

I don't either.

And we discounted it.

Some of the conversations he had with you, he thought, and some of the events transpired that he thought would be most helpful.

There is some of them that will, with respect to the Watergate affair, I'm speaking strictly confined now, he says will hurt Dean, they will hurt no one else.

He says will hurt Dean, they will hurt no one else.

And we went through with these enough, and as I told Al, they'd be crazy, but I believe him.

think we're going to have a case with this put together i think we're going to have the case with this put together did you did you got to go forward with a revelation to go forward with a revelation of this as much as possible get as much as possible that is gonna that is gonna create

a song, particularly among the, a song, particularly among the, and I think, and I think, to survive that song, to really survive that song, to really survive that, we cannot afford, we cannot afford to appear to be in the position, to appear to be in the position

of withholding anything, of withholding from anything wrong.

Nothing to this with however, nothing, nothing to this with however, nothing, nothing in this, nothing in this, let me say it, it doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't,

That's true, Mr. President.

At the same time, you know that.

I believe that.

But the problem is we'll have one hell of a job.

Sure, sure.

And now I'm thinking of trying to think of our best case, our best case, to move forward and to make it sick.

Well, well.

And I think this should be laid out.

We go through.

And I think this should be laid out.

The kinds of things that were going on were all, we were trying to coordinate the whole thing.

That was my reason to get in the building.

Restrictions that the employee had were over in charge and it would be on the activity.

Part of the issue quite well, in this case, none of my parallel was done.

I think there's no more stop.

The kinds of things that were going on in the... Before you go, before you go, before you go, I need to prepare.

I need to find a cooler because the restrictions that he involved in...

And I think in this case, you're going to find very little stuff.

I think very little stuff.

See, that's what we've got to do.

Before you go, before you go, before you go, I'd be prepared, but I think you're going to find Hoover.