Conversation 920-003

Transcript (AI-Generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.

Hi, I'm George.

I have a feeling about this thing.

My recognition is that nothing was done under this thing.

My recognition.

As a matter of fact, that's why it's a matter of fact.

I remember this .

You see, rather than, I think there's one, stand with me.

There's a little bit of a tendency to, you know, let's go out.

And, for example, .

We have to give all that away.

What do you think?

I don't know.

We may have to.

We would never give all that.

There's no reason for it yet.

Our problem right now is to get the facts in mind that the big problems they are, A, that's how these things are done.

Maybe some are being protected by the NSA.

Fine.

Go for them.

B, use them.

Did he talk to Fred since he talked to you?

No.

Did he talk to you?

Yes.

What did he say?

I just talked to him.

He was still waiting for you?

He did.

He said he was still waiting for you.

He was just making fun of you.

You didn't listen to him.

He didn't approve.

I met him.

Before the reception.

The reception.

Well, he said he would call in the middle.

This may be more of a flap than we pretend to get.

God damn it, how are we going to get back to Seoul?

You know what I mean?

But don't tie it in the crow, and don't tie it in the buggers, and don't tie it in the... That's a terrible statement.

That makes it look like a giant conspiracy.

Yes, exactly.

I feel that I just got to say, well, crow did this, and that was a mistake.

The buggers did this like their job.

And I think they planned it all.

When I say I think that, something in the back of my mind tells me that.

I don't know.

He never told me.

He never meant it to me.

You know, the activist plan that came in and said, here's what we're going to do.

I don't know how that happened.

I don't know how he did it at that point.

No.

That's what I thought.

I haven't.

I have to do it.

Check my memory a little bit.

Al was right about Houston.

Houston got pissed off on the left.

He said nothing was ever done to this goddamn thing.

He said no one would allow it.

And he screwed it.

And Al said that Houston recalls that I rescinded it.

And I think that's right.

I don't remember it, but I think what happened was that

He just wasn't working or something like that.

I don't know whether I heard something came across that looked like Hillary Mayfair's son in the file.

Let me give you where we are right now.

Houston says his first recollection is that it was your car.

I don't search his file.

You may have a copy.

He thinks not, but I've seen him off to look.

Is he here or what?

No, sir.

He's in Ednafis.

He took his files with him?

He took his files with him.

How did he find this guy?

The next person, he said that in August of 2017, John Dean came into the White House.

He was moved to Dean's office and Dean took over his responsibilities with respect to this type of activity.

He said at the same time, Martin came in as his assistant to the Attorney General for Internal Security.

And he's aware that Dean and Martin

an interagency committee.

He doesn't know anything about what they did.

His recollection is that he had sent out a memorandum saying, um, the decision is reversed on implementing the plan.

He originally said he sent out a memorandum implementing the plan.

Tell me, did your decision...

He said he thinks he probably sent out a memorandum telling him, recalling that document.

After?

After our...

He said that he thought Mitchell, no, before, before then came aboard.

He said that Cooper went to Mitchell, Mitchell came to you, and you turned it off.

I don't recall, except that I told Mitchell that Cooper didn't like it, or that Dan wasn't working on it.

But I got an answer from him, which obviously makes sense.

Right.

I sat in one meeting, and I don't recall anything else.

That was the initial meeting, apparently.

That's right.

It was in this room.

I was here to put together the plan.

As a matter of fact, they all wanted to meet at that point.

Helms, Dyer, Hoover were all working together and fighting each other.

And I said, get in one room.

And I said, I'm going to get together, and Hoover's in charge.

And Hoover wanted them.

Now, I talked to NSA and talked to both Sam Phillips and Luke Tardello.

Luke Tardello says to the best of his memory, he had it oral that the plan had been approved.

And that he never remembered getting a memo on any of it.

He remembers no turnoff.

Now, Luke Tardello, I told him to pull together every scrap of paper he had related.

and to come in here and tell me what procedures he did under the authority of this thing.

He's on his way in.

He should be here shortly.

I got a hold of D.I.

He's a very recent director.

He said, so far as I know, we didn't do a damn thing.

He knows they didn't do anything.

He swears to them.

He has talked to these people.

He said, there may have been a memorandum here, we have no receipt for it.

But he's got them all still searching the files to see if there's a memorandum to turn it off or turn it on that night.

See any records they have regarding it.

I have not managed to reach Lester yet.

He's out of pocket.

Martin was out for an hour.

They couldn't reach him.

I left word for him to call back.

That's where we are.

Martin is the key.

Martin is the key because we can't talk to Dean.

as to what they actually did.

Houston was the activist, and I know he didn't do them.

Did he know anything while he was here?

He said nothing was done while he was here.

But see, he fell just after the approval of the thing, as the record shows, and moved to Dean's office.

And out he went.

And he says Dean took it over.

He left in frustration at Hoover.

He was just curious.

But he wrote the memorandum.

He wrote the memorandum.

I remember it.

But that doesn't make the dean do something.

It doesn't make the dean do something.

I think if anything was done, it was done between Dan and Marty.

There was some activity, Mr. President.

I know they had a committee.

I know they produced intelligence reports.

Whether they got it from the record tape, whether they did anything extra, I don't know.

I suspect, quite frankly, that we'll find that there's a fair likelihood that the Oldsburg thing was justified.

I know Bob Marty quite well.

Bob was extremely aggressive.

It may be that he was involved.

He may not have been.

But we'll find out when we get it.

Meanwhile, we've got the others looking to see if there are any doctors turning it off or whatnot.

I've got Houston looking.

I'd like to vote.

The Ellsberg thing was something we set up.

Let me tell you, I don't know what happened here.

We set up, in the White House, an independent group under Bud Krug to cover the problems of leaks involving

At the time of the goddamn Pentagon Papers, right?

Remember we called it, they called it, I don't remember, remember they called it Plumber's Outbreak.

That was it, didn't it?

It was not connected with these things at all, right?

Not at all.

They had no connection, whatever, with any of those.

And may I say, I think, looking at our earlier conversation, I think we should treat them separately.

Treat them separately.

I had this idea of saying, well, that could have been the reason that we had to check the water main bunkers was because of this thing.

I don't think so.

You see, I think you're going to find this thing was either dead because of either the limo or it was one of those things that was never implemented.

Now, here's my idea.

That's why I say

That's why I say they're probably going to try to hang the whole business on this.

That's how they're going to try it together.

I'm not saying that it won't.

I can't conceive that you would try to hang it on that.

Yes, sir.

It won't work.

I'm sorry for crowing, but that California law isn't too tough.

I'm very organic.

Have you found out?

I haven't.

As far as this thing itself is concerned, I would anticipate that the idea that we're going to get all open our bowels in an uproar because something like this is going to make it come out.

Let's see.

And I will remember, this is a classified document.

Let's remember, it is a classified document.

My view is, if they start making the God-man doctrine, and then we go along the attack of the leading classified doctrines.

In other words, making the case about, again, about the Pentagon.

Now here's a classified doctrine, but in this instance, here's my third point.

The most important point is this.

If we found that

very little, if nothing was done to the goddamn thing, or if we haven't been fine with it, have a look at the center.

You can kill them.

I doubt that anything was done to this at all.

I just think, I think it was a, it was a non-starter.

Well, I'm not trying to play it, but that's my recollection of the thing, Al, was that we were all around here.

I remember one single, one single time when we sent Houston to the left, because it was pissed off, and I do remember, he was, you know, he was a Caribbean.

Yeah.

What kind of action did they do?

I don't know the specifics.

They picked up communication stuff.

They don't actually have to do that.

But anything that NSA did is totally defensible.

I think it's defensible, but I think that they moved into a broader category with respect to domestic affairs.

Right, right.

And picking up by... What do you mean by defensible?

Targeting, yes, targeting U.S. citizens.

Conversations.

that were on international circuits.

Do it so because they're concerned about their being involved in violence?

Yes.

Is that right?

Yes.

Now, I'll get a complete picture of that.

Right.

What?

Well, that's interesting.

I would not vote too quickly on this, though.

Well, we want to move quickly and get as many factors as we can.

That's the only way to move quickly.

This is just the way, what I'm saying is, I'm thinking of our VR strategy here.

This is one.

Let me tell you, they bought a little time.

They bought a little time.

The intelligence agent is consigned to NRC on the basis of the sensitivity of the document with the urban committee.

to lock the document up.

So he's going to place the main study.

They're going to try to convince him tomorrow of the high possibilities of damage that could be done to try to hold this document.

Yet he turns back.

It's going to be done by CIA and NSA.

They're going to see Simon.

Simon is convinced.

He will try to get Irving to give the document back.

I don't practically think it'll work, but in the meanwhile, it bothers time.

While they're considering the question, we haven't got anything to lose, it might bother some time.

It is.

It has bothered some time so far.

I mean, they're better than the likely result.

Yes, I think that's the likely result, but in the meanwhile, um,

at least only have one apparently that is good about this is it is the wrong base you understand what i meant is they don't they don't like to get caught because these are basically the worst kind of thing is frankly the commerce operation yes that looks like well you've got that class aren't a bunch of people here but here's you've got the ci the di fbi all working together on some

There you are, all working on something like this.

Well, God damn it, now that they all get together and get together a paper for the President of the United States, that's something that's pretty goddamn important.

That's what's involved here.

It involved the groups that were engaging in violence, disruption, unbelievable hell around this place.

A couple of those we didn't do much good with.

We had a riot in the exterior.

Let's see, the Cambodian was in 1771.

Yeah, amazing.

Well, that's what we want to handle.

Just arrest the bastards.

I remember that's what we had to do.

Yeah, it worked.

That's a fine job, Fred, right there.

Now, who are you checking on now?

Are you trying to find Marty?

Yes, sir.

I'm trying to find Marty.

I've got Tordella here to change this, to tell us how this affected their operations.

I've got D.I.E.

seeking the documents, if they can find the memorandum.

I also asked him for Tordella to look again.

And I've got him to call the solicitor so I can get him to see if he can find these documents.

And he ate the memorandum.

They might have turned it off, turned it off.

And then I'll learn from him whether they did anything different.

Well, could you call Sullivan?

Yes, I haven't reached Sullivan yet.

He's the one man I haven't reached.

Try to get him now.

I'll go call him now and get back to you as soon as you know.

We can do that.

I'll be right back.

We haven't waited five or ten hours.

We've only got 15 minutes.

We've got to start on this time.

We're not going to flap over this, sir.

What does that mean?

Actually, it's got more here than there is here.

No, that's right.

That's that, uh, I'm not reading it.

He's looking at the sun.

It's the sun.

Yeah.

That's what he did.

Oh, but what is it?

What did they tell us?

That's what it gave him to see what he was like to flap over the president.

Is that what he said?

I think so.

I don't think it's true that he's the one that authorized some of the sanctuaries that were ever tested.

Oh, he wasn't.

He didn't test for that.

Oh, yeah, no.

He didn't do anything like that.

So he didn't.

Indeed.

I don't think Dean authorized Watergate.

No, I don't think so.

No, it's after Watergate that Dean became

So barring the perjury, fixing the Magruder thing, that is his major involvement.

And that's being involved with Monserrate of Defense, which if he can't defend, provided that it doesn't look like him.

But Biggie's problem is that.

No, sir, he doesn't have another problem.

I don't think he needs to defend for those things.

I don't think that's what he's looking for.

They're not being perjured.

Pressure, pressure to maybe get them into me and get a diversionary look when I look at this.

Excuse me, excuse me.

Why would he take that document out and secrete it in a bank?

Unless he's trying to make sure he gets it to the first bank.

Well, to show that they looked at what I got, because we were here, so we were going to the minors.

This is ordered to the minors.

Okay.

I mean, it's so sensitive.

Maybe he thought he was going to be able to formulate it, and it didn't seem to be, because he kept referring to it.

I thought it played a big deal with him.

It won't work.

I'm telling you, I just, I don't, they got a dam, and that thing, that gets out, that's what we have a second Pentagon thing, but the country gets excited about it.

But now, I just don't think the country, when I see the president excited about it, but I don't think it's the country.

He's going to get excited about a damn plan that was drawn up by agencies to control the goddamn riots.

That's all this is.

There's no way.

In fact, most people would say, thank God.

Again, if we had done less, we would have been irresponsible.

You know, this is a farce of all things.

Goddamn.

It looks right for the people of the country.

You develop these vulnerabilities.

It's just something.

But again, this may be the vehicle that they may try to turn on and make a mistake.

Why?

Well, if they get into a big charge of suppression of civil liberties, god damn it, that's what he's doing.

And it may be loosely said.

Well, so they must leave it as it was given.

No, I mean, I don't think, I doubt if anything was done.

I think it was a great thing to do.

I think it was my daughter's about to leave, so I don't know.

I think it was Ben.

I think it was about him.

Then they came on, and I think we got him out.

That's when they got him.

He said, this is my lead.

Why don't you call, uh, the troops, aren't you?

The airmen.

But we met, and we put an announcement out, but he said, oh, military stuff.

I couldn't remember, so I'm pressing the numbers now.

but also very actively suspended, you know.

And I think he was the creation of that group to gain federal security.

Approved it.

Yeah.

And incidentally, that supersede could have superseded this.

That's a very important point.

It was after this committee, I'm sure, or after this directive, because Fred told me that there were some in the White House here that wanted more, wanted to keep the Army in.

Keep the Army in?

Yeah.

But they didn't.

They did just the opposite.

That was probably Houston that was coming to get this thing going.

Well, that may be a summer issue.

But don't let us start getting all upset about this.

This will be another story.

That's all.

In my view, in my view, in this sense, this will be another goddamn story.

The president authorized a super duper activity in 1970 and so forth for the purpose of doing that, which involved also burglary, et cetera, and wiretapping.

Very short, very short.

Hunch.

And what we plan to say, just say you're gone now.

However we send it.

I mean, we...

However, we said that, I mean, it did not have to be provable and so forth and so on.

It was to deal with a specific problem.

It did not have to be provable and so forth and so on.

It was to deal with a specific problem at a specific time, and it was discontinued at such and such a time.

At a specific time, and it was discontinued, and it was discontinued at such and such a time.

I think we're going to find discontinuance someplace in this damn government real life.

I think we're going to find discontentments.

Some place in this damn government we're going to find discontentments.

We're going to find discontentments.

Boy, the incredible treachery of that Mr. Rich.

Well, what other problems you got there?

Any of those today?

I have actually studied it and I've been saying, hey, don't think this patient comes from, you know, I think we should handcuff them.

Confirmation, which we have to veto.

Yeah.

Okay.

We're sweat on it this day.

I have actually studied it and I've been saying, hey, don't think this patient comes from, you know, I think we should handcuff them.

I don't think he has strong feelings, except for the fact that he's in this position.

I don't think I need that.

It's bad.

I don't think that's strong feeling.

Yes, Jerry Ford, uh, here's Scott.

Get your, get your cover up now.

Do we need the name?

Does the name have to be the same?

Yeah, it's Jerry Ford, Hugh Scott, and Frank Gordon-Hall.

We've got a paint job.

I don't mind if we don't change what that does for us.

Yes, sir.

See if the rock sliders have stepped up.

You go ahead.

I'll be right there.

Yes, sir.

Get your cover up now.

I want to see.