Nixon, Kelley & Atkins on FBI and J. Edgar Hoover

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All right, Jayden, I'll see you again.

I'll see you again.

Sit down over there.

Let's get a picture down first for your files.

Get a picture of us sitting down.

Not the impressed picture on this.

Thank you, college.

Send copies to the chief.

Yes, sir.

Thank you very much.

Let me ask you first about your wife.

She's involved in it.

It frequently does when you don't catch it in time.

Well, give her my very best.

Thank you.

Everybody's working like crazy.

Maybe one day they'll find something.

It's just the battle of the experts that can't find anything.

She was very healthy and had a splendid diet.

For example, she never used salt.

She never drank coffee.

And we...

And we try to get her to go to the doctor about once a year, at least for an annual.

She wouldn't go.

This thing .

Well, as you are, of course, probably aware, I would like to nominate you as director of the Bureau.

I would like to say that in doing so, we have considered 27 people.

Seriously, of course, there have been 100 people whose names have been suggested.

After looking at all over, I think you're the man for a variety of reasons.

One, you were with the Bureau.

Second, fortunately, you also have a law degree.

It's not that that changed anything.

There aren't so many criminal lawyers.

That probably is a liability right to the NASA.

This is the thing that disimpresses me, is that you have a distinguished record in the law enforcement field, and you're strong and tough and you're progressive.

I use that word in quotes.

I'm progressive like a rat in a car.

The other thing that I think is very important is that

From all accounts, I hear you are a fearless administrator.

We've got to talk very candidly about the Bureau.

You know, Mr. Hoover, like many strong men, left no one to run.

Like Tocqueville might have, but Tocqueville was such a... Also, his last name was shot through in fighting warfare.

That's why he's...

half of what we found in the Kennedy and Johnson period were removed from the FBI files by Saul, who did the tapping, and brought up to the Justice Department.

Marty doesn't know why else, because he said the troopers might use it to blackmail us.

I don't know what in the world, but they might use us all.

Don't get it.

Use us all.

That's all.

The point is that, isn't it?

that an officer of a bureau would suggest that Edgar Hoover would blackmail the Attorney General or the President of the United States.

I just couldn't believe it.

And I don't believe it today.

I, as a very close friend of his, going way back to the days of his case when I was a young congressman, and I thought he had personal and social leaders.

I didn't know Pat Gray, curiously enough, despite all the thoughts I was going to share.

I met him a couple of years ago.

But he was finding that too very difficult.

Well, down to the Durham now.

I mean, down to the Durham in Washington.

The bureaucracy is an enormous fight for power.

The jealousy, hatreds, all things that Hoover kept suppressed through, frankly, fear, anger, and evil.

just popped off as soon as he left.

And it impressed me.

I mean, I don't suppose you as a former Bureau man would ever have dreamed that the Bureau would leave anything.

It wasn't like they said over the last few years.

Just, I didn't believe it.

And it's so shocking.

They've had it all, it's done.

I don't know.

It's just hard to believe.

I don't know if I'll be there.

But what is needed at the federal level is not just a figurehead.

He'd be a fine figurehead because of your background and so forth.

But what is needed is a fearless administrator who will go in there with the spirit of the object of your work.

And I would strongly recommend that you consider taking virtue of the whole top echelon and translating it into the field of retirement.

and finding people you could bring up.

Now, this can't be done overnight, but you must get your team in there and get them in defense.

I'm not the reporter for you to do this, but I'm telling you, based on the analysis I've had, everybody that has studied justice in here desperately needs this.

And I think you should talk to some people about it, maybe Henry Peterson and others.

It's fine.

I think you could give us some guidance on it.

But if you just go in and just sit on the mirror the way Edgar left it, you won't assert anything.

You will have the usual bang confirmation.

They'll ask you how you stand on civil rights and how you stand on wiretapping and all the rest.

You can handle all that.

And you'll be approved.

I'd be absolutely hard-line on an item.

He said he'd take Gray when he went up there.

And they asked him whether or not he would take the raw files of the Bureau of the Individual Members of the House and Senate.

He said yes.

And we had to throw it off him.

What if you know?

That would be unbelievable.

You know what raw files are?

It's garbage.

I mean, you read this.

It's unbelievable.

You can't.

Notations and everything.

Well, you can't, sir.

You can't do that, too.

Now, absolutely, people like that, sometimes they do show a law file to a fellow, like on the cloud, or somebody who's totally irresponsible.

But that's something we'll see.

But that is, a thing like that, you've got to finesse by the first anyway.

That's a, that'll depend on the individual case.

I mean, there will cooperate, but obviously we don't want to hurt some people, you know,

The Bureau is a proud organization, and just as so many.

It has many very fine men, and we're proud of that.

It is now getting into the law enforcement field at the local level, as you know.

Over the last ten years, I've spoken most directly to the class of these people, and probably do so.

But in order for you to do this job properly, I would say that

So essentially, what we do to go in there with a broom sweeper clean, crack a few heads, reestablish a high sense of pride and personal confidence in the people over there.

I can tell you this.

You'll never be in a favor of leaving this office.

I never called you or you would not have done a thing.

In fact, Kevin has done something

Not when I say wrong, in their right.

But I follow more the Eisenhower practice.

The head of the bureau is a regular shot, and you'll have no interference from the White House.

You've got to run.

Actually, we ask for information that's appropriate to get into us, like who the judge on our names, white people, things like that.

But what is most important,

Your appointment may be for only three and a half years, but it might be longer.

It depends on what happens, but that is going to bother you.

It's probably going to be four years anyway.

You're going to have to change it right away.

But anyway, it could be next to the time the girl began the hoover, and he shaped it for what it later became.

It could be the most important three years of the girl's life.

So I don't know if that's still on the job.

Well, you have been a great friend to me, and this is an effective presidency for law enforcement.

Right.

It's the top.

I haven't even thought about the possibility of ever coming here.

No.

Frankly, I look forward to it because, as you say, there are many things that can and should be done.

And one of the things is that I don't think the Bureau has had quite the relationship with local law enforcement that they could have.

Not that they wouldn't want, but that they actually could have.

And there has been somewhat of an antagonism among the various other federal investigators.

Yeah, for example, Edgar wouldn't even talk to Hamilton because he didn't trust him.

It was one of the reasons that we got into that fiasco with regard to the CIA and so forth.

And so a lot of the margins were perfectly clean.

The problem was that we just had to be sure that the two would talk to each other.

And this was so, by the time Gray went in, he said, you've got to sit down and talk to us all.

So you're a human.

You...

It means not only, it means not only cooperating with local law enforcement.

That is, that's very important.

The country's interests primarily now are really that, uh, that if they want, they want crime reduced, you know, street crime and so forth.

And I know the Bureau does not have an acceptance of federal interest, but, but you can help them out a lot in setting an example.

We have big budgets for that purpose.

Now the AA and so forth and so on.

We want you back, so on.

But in addition, you're in the government.

It's ridiculous for the head of the bureau not to be talking to the head of the CIA.

You've got to... What?

You bring coffee, don't you?

I heard you're sitting quiet.

I do not know the man in charge of the alcohol tax .

As a matter of fact, I don't even know his name right now.

And recently, I was actually given a little token of recognition of the cooperation given to the IRS.

I think that I start off with a pretty good base for working together.

And you're talking about the reduction of crime.

Within the Kansas City Missouri Police Department, a number of things are being tried.

I'm innovating my ideas.

And in the position where I would be, I would, I'm hopeful, be influential about trying something, because that's what they're directed toward, reducing crime in an atmosphere of justice.

And there are so many good things that can be done, and many of which I think can be adapted to the FBI.

One of the things is that there always has been a feeling that a law enforcement, kind of a military order where no one makes decisions, no one contributes to the decision except the highest level.

It so happens that the men who work at the street level have a wealth of information and knowledge.

And if you can just tap that source through some participatory management type of thing, it works out.

We've been trying that, and it's just a splendid result without any abandonment of your responsibility.

It's a new thing.

Yeah.

Don't let the discipline.

No, no.

That remains in us.

And in fact, you know, it is shocker, actually.

Is that right?

Yes, sir.

It's actually shocker.

It is a splendid...

It had been a splendid enterprise.

One of the things that is very important to me is that the Bureau's got to quit fighting in every other agency.

You know, Hoover wanted to make sure the Bureau got into only those things where it had responsibility, or otherwise only those things where the play was going to be to the Bureau.

There are all sorts of organizations around here where, doggone it, the Bureau ought to work with them.

And take relief, but work with them.

And that will have a sanitary thing.

Let me tell you, this time, this time through, you know, we're fighting them.

I mean, everybody's, you know, every proud man, the customs people, the trade people, always fighting the justice people.

You can get along.

Just talk to those people.

They're good people, too, Kevin.

The Secret Service, Hoover despised the Secret Service.

Blamed them for the Dallas death.

Because he ever saw a cop in the press, they're kind of a good word.

The Secret Service is a minority.

They've got a lot of fine men.

And frankly, the Bureau of the Secret Service on Hoover's name, there's no reason why they can't keep you in company of the others.

For example, you go out, you know, the president goes out on trips and arrests the detectives.

and have secret service agents and so forth down there.

We work with the local police.

What if there's a bureau all of a sudden?

The bureau should work with this too.

The bureau should help protect the person.

Shouldn't it?

Or his family.

Or a foreign agent.

Or what have you.

You know what I mean?

I don't mean to assume the responsibility, but let's not have this business where the bureau says, uh-huh, we're not going to have anything to do with the secret service.

We're going to do this through our job.

Do your job first, because unless it's done well, then everything will go down the tube.

But if you can bring that sense of, well, now there's a new girl who's sweeping clean in the bureaucracy, that's point one.

And the bureau's going to do its job fairly soon and strongly for law enforcement and so forth.

that you're going to have a program of more cooperation with local law enforcement officials.

The Bureau will provide leadership in this respect.

It will be the clearinghouse for information.

And we want to get the cop on the beat, for example.

We want his material.

What somebody learns in Missoula, Montana, might help somebody in Biloxi, Mississippi.

So let's clear it here and pass it on.

And third, you're going to see that the Bureau of Cooperation

But I assure you that these points will get my immediate attention.

I happen to know, I think, very intimately, every one of the major city chiefs of police that we construe in this profession is 500,000.

But I know a great many others

And I think that under that type of introduction, it would be much easier for me to work and get that cooperation, which I think is latent.

All you have to do is hang out.

They're willing, most of them,

to be completely cooperative with federal agencies.

And perhaps I can give them some leadership in that regard.

And the other federal agencies, bring them into this pool.

Most of the larger city chiefs are most anxious to do whatever they can.

So I don't think it will be too difficult.

How are your relations with two senators from Missouri?

I know Senator Simonson's friend, while I'm particularly well acquainted with him,

assistants and fight attendants.

But you wouldn't see either of them close to you?

No.

Good.

I saw you.

You had never had a fight with either of them?

Never.

They're meant to make a friendly relationship.

And of course, they're in the States with Kip Bond and Jack Danforth, both very fine people.

Great guys.

Most of them on the way up.

Yeah, I know them very well.

I say I know them well.

I've watched them.

They're very capable guys.

I was talking about your visit there at the time when Danforth was running against Simonson.

And you went out to visit two of our officers.

And both of them had been hit by a splinter from a bomb and it exploded.

And they still talk about that.

My God, that's great.

Well, I want you to know that in our relationship, whenever you see that there's anything we can do for the law enforcement or reward one of your people, recognize them, or other people in the law enforcement field, get in the heart of our people here, I'll do it.

Because I feel strongly about this law enforcement issue and so forth.

Now, they'll probably ask a few questions about Watergate for us, or we can easily handle that.

I don't know.

The president said totally, not totally illegal, but it's wrong.

And that's largely a concern I have.

I'm sure you are going to comment on it, because obviously it's a case that's in the courts.

On wiretapping, you should say, well, we'll just follow whatever the law requires.

As you know, it now requires an action by the judge.

You know, you do something.

See what the law requires.

That's all.

And insofar as matters of national interest, that's still a matter which is determined by Lamar?

Lamar.

That's been changed.

The national security attacks, which used to be allowed, have always been done by approval by the U.S. General.

Now I think even they require rejection.

You'd have to check, you'd have to check right, be sure I'm right on that.

That's not too good.

That's a shame.

You go to the judge and you know what's happening.

You get some liberal judge, you get an election, tap, you have to tap.

Once you do it, you're going to know what the problem is.

the truth base in 1970 and the rest of the readout, you know, destroyed this country.

Oh yeah.

And uh, you had to go out there and buy a tantric, just think of Axe Tantrums and all those people.

And to think, for example, that they have access to all of such things.

And here we are, the law enforcement, with our hands tied behind our backs.

Everything, wire tantrums, surreptitious entry, all the things that you have to do in terms of that power.

Unless you get something from the judge.

I think that's the law.

So let me say it's shocking, if it is.

But there have been some things developed in the way of investigatory activities, such as the establishment of M.O.

files and techniques in so far as handling of evidence.

There have been some things developed which will be helpful.

So many times, they used to rely just on questioning and in the circumstances of by bugs or by attacks.

Always not lost, but it certainly does help when you can put in an installation.

Sure, it helps.

Ah!

Well, that's sort of the temper of our times.

It may change in time.

They may have an horrendous crime or a National Security League of enormous importance and people are going to say, now, come now.

Let's stop this sort of stuff.

Right.

That's right.

The country, I don't think, is on the side of it.

uh, those deposed that go to the necessary protection and security of the country.

They're not on the side of letting Ellsberg off, for example.

Huh?

They hit the fellowship and put them in jail and locked up.

Yes, that's wrong.

The protection of the country is a matter which we should give prying attention to.

Well, there are a lot of things that can be done, Mr. President, and I look forward to trying them without having to be far out

Because sometimes innovation is for innovative purposes, and there's no sense in that.

They're gimmicks.

Don't do the gimmicks.

I mean, they're showing each other to make a good headline for a couple of days, and they don't do the job.

I know.

But on the other hand, it's a fresh idea, a good idea, but it's still a...

Right.

It's a...

I hope it'll be a very fine relationship.

There's always a special relationship between whoever is President and Chief of the Bureau, which goes beyond the Attorney General.

In other words, you obviously have to have a relationship with Richardson as the Attorney General.

But we always have the rule that the President should and does see the head of the Bureau alone, which we are now implementing.

And the purpose not being to circumvent the Attorney General arrest,

But it's like the relationship with the President, the Chairman, the Chair of Chiefs of Staff.

I can see him, I do see him alone, without secondary events.

Because I am the Commander-in-Chief.

In fact, whoever's President is the Commander-in-Chief.

So in this instance, there won't be very often, but from time to time, when you have something you have great concern about, you come in.

And there may be occasion when I'll call and say, now what goes here?

How do you get along with this agency or that one or the other one?

And we can always talk and raise the confidence, which is what it's always the relation I have with Hoover.

That's one thing that everything he says is right.

Well, we, I think this is going to be a good appointment.

I think our plan is to announce a senator.

I understand this is a senator.

And so, making it sort of personal, we'll send him off at that point.

I would say that when you were announced at your vessel, I have to say that you're very proud.

I've been a member of the Bureau and I've been in law enforcement for many years.

I'm very proud to have this assignment.

But at the time, I would say that since I have to be a person of confirmation, I, of course, would not be appropriate for you to answer questions in the press at this time.

That's the line that always must be taken by somebody.

Now, they won't like it when it's personal, but it's the only part of the line.

And it is true.

You've got to go make your pitch.

Don't make your pitch.

Let me just make a note of the chair, because we've got to do that.

I would simply say, you know, I'm proud that he doesn't have a background.

So basically all they'll do is to be fine.

So you're proud to do this job and so forth.

I'm going to go one bit beyond that.

If you go any beyond that, I'll try to

right now when the announcement comes just get him straight out and you're welcome to say that

You said you've seen the president.

Oh, yes, we had a good talk in Washington.

And, uh, we, uh, he told me in the appointment that, uh, that I was there.

And, uh, we, uh, we look forward to this great responsibility.

Do you think that you could even add one?

Do you think the Bureau would be the first one?

Great, thanks.

Yes, sir.

All right.

Well, good luck.

Thank you very much.

Nixon, Kelley & Atkins on FBI and J. Edgar Hoover

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Nixon Library Finding Aid

Also recorded on June 6, 1973

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