On June 7, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon and J. Fred Buzhardt, Jr. met in the Oval Office of the White House from 5:37 pm to 5:52 pm. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 934-012 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
I think it's important that you know how strongly I feel about how really impeccable his conduct has been.
And I called him several times and talked to him.
He, of course, knows it was very difficult for me to hold him in her.
He was right.
I had to do it.
Although that piece of paper was not enough.
I think you would agree on that.
Don't you feel tired for that?
No, sir.
It's not enough.
Oh, not?
It's not enough.
And then I kept up to that.
I kept after him trying to get more information.
And to this great credit, I said, I'll never tell you anything that
So I recall that he was right, but he's in a very good position that he should so testify.
I don't want him to feel that he has any problem of privilege on this.
That's why I want to talk to him.
On the other hand, I don't want to embarrass him.
I don't think he will.
But basically, our conversations, he could tell between a president trying to find out what the facts were, trying to do the right thing, and his trying to help out as best he could.
And the one thing you probably want to check with him is that piece of paper did show that he knew about that break in the middle of March.
You understand?
Yes.
Because the question makes sense for that reason.
I don't think I'd give that piece of paper to anybody.
Do you have any obligations to anybody?
You see what I'm getting at here?
Yes.
Yesterday, if the Justice Department knew it in the middle of March, this was the 15th of the middle of April, before they talked to me about it.
The question is, why didn't they then?
Now, I know the reason, because when I talked to Henry on the 17th, and I don't know who it was, he understood very well, and told him about it, and said, don't you go on another date.
And I was very rough.
He called me because I was disturbed about the possibility of it.
I said, don't go into any action or anything about it.
Anyway, he, as I told you, asked the question.
whether any of this material ever got to the prosecution.
I said, no, there was nothing in it.
This was a dry hole, you know.
So that's what, it's got to be his defense.
Well, he's even got a firm defense.
What's that?
He had a thorough check started, and I believe it was before he talked with you, at justice, to determine if any evidence could have come from any other source
And there, officials vestigialed Howard's affairs.
So he knew that this evidence, that he knew about this evidence.
And therefore, when I talked to him on the 17th of May.
You were merely confirming what the Justice Department records then showed.
That's right.
He said, did any of the evidence of the hunt, other than that, did he ever get a good time?
And I said, no, he did not.
So he had a good time.
But I can say that in terms of his own conduct, that I could do it.
But it was, it was impactful.
He, I think, leveled with me as much as he could.
I couldn't get what I was really trying to get from him, though.
Strangely, at that time, I was really trying to get from him what in the world to do with all of this.
I couldn't get any more facts.
So I just had to let the newspapers know, which they did.
On Dean, the
he maybe could be concerned about the fact that I kept him on in that period.
But I did until the Friday before, because we had sort of, he didn't directly say, you should keep him on your staff.
But the way I put it is, you see, I was in a very awkward position.
He had said, Hall and Herbert should be gone, gone.
He didn't say Dean should be gone.
So I couldn't really, knowing that he had Dean there,
I said, well, I couldn't be in a position of firing Dean and keeping hold of everything.
That's right.
Because he had made the case against them.
That's right.
So I said to Peterson, in effect, as I recall, I'll keep everybody on.
I'll keep Dean on.
And the negotiations go on.
So I was really less involved with him.
Peterson's check was very easy.
All the evidence was given to the prosecutors.
It was put on the computer.
It was got by event, by person, by date and source of the material.
None of, nothing that can't be accounted for from one of the official investigations was ever on that material.
That is nothing.
Oh, I just want to be sure.
Peterson, if he does get called, I do think he's one man that will frankly not try to knock the president.
I can't concede.
But it may be something I don't think we ever had.
And fortunately, I did reveal to him.
I did talk to him about the business thing.
I told him.
I told you myself this was after after you see Dean I don't know whether Dean Henry may be the witness who can put that in perspective you see if Dean told you that on the 21st the question is as I say
Why didn't I tell him something else?
I should have answered on all of it.
Dean told me about the president.
He is the counsel for the president.
He's the one that's supposed to talk.
I should have assumed, you know, he would have assumed that I was holding information.
Besides, you asked me to write it all down.
Well, of course.
After all, I can't have a guy come in here and say, I don't know about this and that and the other thing.
I'd say, well, let's let me have it right.
And Moore is a pretty good witness on that, isn't he?
Yes.
Moore does verify the fact that I asked on several occasions, can't we get this story out?
Yes, sir.
No question.
I don't want to mislead you on anything, but I...
My memory, I think, is very good there, and I think Erlingman says it, Paul says it, that I was the guy who was saying, get this darn story out.
Or says that to me.
Yes, sir.
There's no question.
He comes through very well, and he tells it very convincingly.
What is the truth in that?
He has a problem with things.
And another reason we don't want him testifying in front of this, because of this earlier meeting they had in St. Thomas.
Dean could make more out of it from Moore's standpoint than Moore actually knew at the time.
Oh, the meeting where they undercut him.
That's right.
As a result of which, Moore went to Mitchell with a message, several messages, one of which was, you know, if you come down here, Moore is involving himself more.
And he's a great speaker.
Did Moore tell you to do that?
Yes.
He carried the message.
And Moore says that Dean told him that to do that.
Does Moore say that Dean told him that LaCosta did that to go tell him he should raise money?
Well, there was a discussion between Dean and LaCosta.
And in the context it was in, it was perfectly logical.
You know, well, they were talking at that time that they needed more money to handle this thing, to provide money for it.
And I forgot exactly how they expressed it, but more.
But more to say, provide money for legal expenses.
That's right, legal expenses and that sort of thing.
And it sounded legitimate to him at the time.
And he went off on it.
Carried a message to Mitchell, and Mitchell rejected it very hard.
Three of them?
Yes, sir.
At that point in time, he... Really?
Yes.
Apparently, Mitchell had stopped racing one at that time.
At some point in the game, because Richard tells me that Mitchell...
I told him in no uncertain terms what he could tell him to do about that.
I raised the money.
Yes.
Who the heck do you think was going to raise the money?
Nobody else was raising the money.
But he apparently at that point didn't appreciate being told to raise money.
That was the expression.
That was the idea he conveyed to Mowry.
I don't know.
As I told you about the cost of the meeting...
The money part of it was never reported to me.
Because I wouldn't have thought it was wrong like that.
You know?
Neither would you.
Thank you.
Your people was very intent.
And I didn't, I suppose, tell them what they're going to do.
I said, thank heaven I wasn't told.
Because now all of them, every speak and dime, looked as if it was for the purpose of a cover-up.
I never saw that Dean did not see me then.
Yes.
They don't mean they don't remember that.
Oh, yes, he remembers that.
He knows not why he didn't see me.
Oh, he knows he didn't see you out there.
See, La Costa was another place where I wasn't there.
He knows he didn't see you out there.
And, uh, what he doesn't remember about the logs of the meetings here in January and February.
He doesn't remember.
Oh, sure.
And I know that was why he was so panicky last Saturday to get those logs.
Well, he had a story going in the Washington Post he obviously knew about saying that he saw you in the early months of the year repeatedly.
Yes.
Now, the fact of the matter is he saw you two times in late the last two days of February.
He didn't see you at all before that.
And he didn't see you in November or December.
So...
He probably did not remember when it was he started seeing you on the executive privilege line.
And he wanted to verify.
He thought, in other words, he was hoping it was earlier.
Yes.
And he was trying to verify.
And it didn't work.
But you didn't get that chance.
No.
I thought that was available to him.
He didn't ask for the logs.
He asked for the logs.
But he asked for them from March the 1st.
He asked for them for two months in 72, September 9th.
And from March 1st to April the 19th in 73.
And that's what he had.
Because I went back and got the copies that were given to him.
Then he asked for the second.
From March the 1st to April the 19th.
He asked for it on April the 19th.
And here, our friend Cox wants to know all meetings that I have had up to the present time.
What is the purpose of that?
I mean, I...
There can be only one purpose, to show that you still trust these people.
I do.
But I think we want him to get on the record.
This gets to a legal technique.
We're trying again to look down the road in all possibilities and to have the best case built in any way it moves.
So I would like for him to get on the record very precisely why he wants it.
You see, why is it presumably, though, that I still talk to them?
Do you mean that I talk to them about how to cover up?
I'm sure this is the theory that he is working on.
But what we want to do in that case is to get him to say that.
Because completely aside from the question of executive privilege, which we anticipate we'll probably have a challenge on, if he goes out to the documents,
and he will put enough in writing to say that he is investigating the president, then we can also tell him he's on jurisdictional grounds because he has no jurisdiction.
So... How can we do that if it's still time?
Still always make the preposition the president has nothing to hide.
You've got to do that.
We will maintain the president has nothing to hide.
All right.
We've got to do that.
that any conversations that have occurred were purely about the transitional matters.
I can simply say that.
We're writing many things on the business of the present.
That's right.
And we're trying to do a paper on the... You're responsible to protect the prerogatives of the present and not have them diminished.
so that the separation of powers is deteriorating for future presidents.
Well, I'll tell you this.
We'll lay that out.
Let me tell you, nobody can serve in this office in the event that we broke this down further than we broke it.
We've gone very far.
It's a long way.
Very long.
Because at the present time, we've got a situation where no president can sit and talk with anybody.
He just couldn't.
You know?
Yes.
And this is just...
Let me tell you, the next step is not going to be talking about crime.
The next step will be coming down and defend why we bombed on December the 18th.
They'll say that was illegal, excessive abuse of power, right?
Yes, sir.
Cambodia did it beyond the power of the Congress.
And we insist on the president's meetings.
Get it?
Yes, sir.
Can you read that to them thereafter?
Well, we'll have to write this, I think, in a very strong way to be made.
Well, we will, but just preparing for all contingencies.
That's funny.
You think that after Christmas, I know they're going to follow, not get deemed next weekend?
Yes, sir.
I'm afraid it may be a week later.
It depends on how fast the court repeats their moves.
And with Judge Fascom down there, there's just no way to tell.
But in the meantime, do you think they'll put on a ball earlier than 14th?
I doubt it.
You wouldn't want to go on for it.
No, sir.
No, sir.
I don't believe they would.
Well, how can they avoid it?
They may have to divert their hearings or even suspend them.
Because the Magruder's Institute, the Magruder's Institute, they can't possibly get to.
Yeah.
No, no, nothing that can't be accounted for from one of the official investigations we've ever omitted.
I just want to be sure.
Peterson, if he does get called, I do think he's one man that will, frankly, not try to knock the president down.
I can't conceive.
But it may be something I don't think we ever had.
And fortunately, I did reveal to him.
I did talk to him about the business thing.
I told him.
So I told him myself, this was after.
I don't know whether Dean had told him about that.
Henry may be the witness who can put that in perspective.
You see, if Dean told you that on the 21st, the question is, as I say, why didn't I tell him something else?
That's the answer to all that.
If Dean told me about it, I'd answer it.
He is the counsel of the president.
He's the one that's supposed to talk.
That's just so, you know, you assume that I was holding information.
Besides, you asked me to write it all down.
It's just a perfectly logical thing.
about this and that and the other thing.
And I say, well, let's, let's let me have it, have it right.
And, and Moore, Moore is a pretty good witness on that, isn't he?
Yes.
Moore does verify the fact that I asked him on several occasions, can we get this story out?
Does he answer that question?
Yes, sir.
Could you see me?
I don't want to mislead you on anything.
I, I, my memory, I think, is very good there.
And I, and I think the early one says it, the old one says it.
I was the guy that was saying, get this darn story out.
Moore said that, didn't he?
Yes, sir.
He has no question.
He comes through very well, and he tells it very convincingly.
What is the truth in that?
He has a problem with Dean, and another reason we don't want him testifying in front of him.
Because of this earlier meeting they had in San Domingo.
Dean could make more out of it from Moore's standpoint than Moore actually knew at the time.
Oh, the meeting where they got the costume.
That's right.
As a result of which, Moore went to Mitchell with a message, several messages, one of which was, you know, if you come down here, Moore, you should involve yourself in the war.
And it's a great story.
Did Moore tell Mitchell that?
Yes.
He carried the message.
And Moore says that Dean told him that, didn't he?
Did Morris say that Deet told him and LaCosta that they should go tell him that you should raise money?
Well, it was a discussion between Dean Haldeman and LaCosta.
Oh.
And in the context it was in, it was perfectly logical.
Like what?
Well, they were talking at that time that they needed more money to handle this thing,
provide money for, and I forgot exactly how they expressed it, more.
But more would say provide money for legal expenses.
That's right.
Legal expenses and that sort of thing.
And it sounded legitimate to him at the time.
And he went home and carried the message to Mitchell.
And Mitchell rejected it very much.
Yes, sir.
At that point in time, he... Really?
Yes.
Apparently, Mitchell is not raising money at that time.
At some point in the game, because Richard tells me that Mitchell told him in no uncertain terms what he could tell him to do about that.
All right.
Yes.
Who the heck do you think is going to raise it?
Nobody else was raising money.
But he apparently, at that point, didn't appreciate being told to raise money.
That was the expression.
That was the idea he conveyed to Mullen.
I don't know.
Because I told you about the cost of the meeting.
The money part of it was never reported to me.
Because I wouldn't have thought it was wrong at that point.
You know?
Neither would you.
Your people...
I didn't...
I suppose...
I never saw that Dean did not see me then.
Yes.
They don't mean they don't remember that.
Oh, yes, he remembers that.
He knows not why he didn't see me.
Oh, and he knows he didn't see you out there.
See, La Costa was another place where I wasn't there.
He knows he didn't see you out there.
And what he does remember about the logs of the meetings here in January and February.
He doesn't remember.
Oh, sure.
And I know that was why he was so panicky last Saturday to get his log.
Well, he had a story going in the Washington Post he obviously knew about saying that he saw you in the early months of the year repeatedly.
Yes.
Now, the fact of the matter is he saw you two times in late the last two days of February.
He didn't see you at all before that.
And he didn't see you in November or December.
So...
He probably did not remember when it was he started seeing you on the executive privilege line.
And he wanted to verify.
He thought, in other words, he was hoping it was earlier.
Yes.
And he was trying to verify.
And it didn't work.
But you didn't give that to him?
No.
I thought that was available to him.
He didn't ask for the logs.
He asked for the logs.
But he asked for them from March the 1st.
He asked for them for two months in 72, September 9th.
And from March 1st to April the 19th in 73.
And that's what he had.
Because I went back and got the copies that were given to him.
Then he asked for the meeting.
From March the 1st to April the 19th.
He asked for it on April the 19th.
And here, our friend Cox wants to know all meetings that I have had up to the present time.
What is the purpose of that?
There can be only one purpose, to show that you still talk to some of these people.
I do.
But I think we want him to get on the record.
This gets to a legal technicality.
We're trying again to look down the road in all possibilities and to have the best case built any way it moves.
So I would like for him to get on the record very precisely why he won't.
You see, why is presumably, though, that I still talk to them?
Does he mean that I talk to them about how to cover up?
I'm sure this is the theory that he is working on.
But what we want to do in that case is to get him to say that.
Because completely aside from the question of executive privilege, which we anticipate we'll probably have a challenge on, if he goes out to the documents,
and he will put enough in writing to say that he is investigating the president, then we can also tell him he's on jurisdictional grounds because he has no jurisdiction.
How can we do that if it's still time?
Still always make the preposition the president has nothing to hide.
You've got to do that.
We will maintain the president has nothing to hide.
We've got to hide it.
No.
that any conversations that occurred were purely about the transitional matters.
I can simply say that.
We're writing many things on the business of the present.
That's right.
And we're trying to do a paper on the... You're responsible to protect the prerogatives of the present and not have them diminished.
So that the separation of powers is deteriorating for future presidents.
Well, I'll tell you this.
We'll lay that out.
Let me tell you, nobody can serve in this office in the event that we broke this down further than we broke it.
We've gone very far.
It's a long way.
Very long.
Because at the present time, we've got a situation where no president can sit and talk with anybody.
He just couldn't.
You know?
Yes.
And this is just...
Let me tell you, the next step is not going to be talking about crime.
The next step will be coming down and defend why we bombed on December the 18th.
They'll say that was illegal.
Excessive use of power, right?
Yes, sir.
Cambodia did it beyond the power of the Congress.
And we insist on the president's meetings.
Get it?
Yes.
Can you read that to them thereafter?
Well, we'll have to write this, I think, in a very strong way to be made evident.
We're actually preparing on this matter.
Well, yeah.
Actually, as late as we can.
Well, we will.
We're just preparing for all contingencies now.
That's funny.
You think that half the person signed out there will follow or not get deemed next week?
Yes, sir.
I'm afraid it may be a week later.
It depends on how fast the court repeats their moves.
And with 35,000 down there, there's just no way to tell them.
But in the meantime, do you think they'll put on a ball in early before 14?
I doubt it.
You wouldn't want all of them to go on for days.
No, sir.
No, sir.
I don't believe they would.
Well, how can they avoid it?
They may have to divert their hearings or even suspend them.
Because the McCruder's Institute, the McCruder's Institute, they can't possibly get this.
Yeah.
Okay.