Nixon White House Tapes — Conversation 934-012
Date: Thursday, June 7, 1973 at 5:37 PM
Participants: Nixon, Richard M. (President); Buzhardt, J. Fred, Jr.
Recording device: Oval Office
Source: https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/934-012

This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite it as authoritative.

[0:02] I think it's important that you know how strongly I feel about how really impeccable his conduct has been.
[0:33] And I called him several times and talked to him.
[0:36] He, of course, knows it was very difficult for me to hold him in her.
[0:40] He was right.
[0:41] I had to do it.
[0:42] Although that piece of paper was not enough.
[0:45] I think you would agree on that.
[0:46] Don't you feel tired for that?
[0:47] No, sir.
[0:48] It's not enough.
[0:49] Oh, not?
[0:50] It's not enough.
[0:51] And then I kept up to that.
[0:53] I kept after him trying to get more information.
[0:58] And to this great credit, I said, I'll never tell you anything that
[1:04] So I recall that he was right, but he's in a very good position that he should so testify.
[1:34] I don't want him to feel that he has any problem of privilege on this.
[1:42] That's why I want to talk to him.
[1:44] On the other hand, I don't want to embarrass him.
[1:47] I don't think he will.
[1:49] But basically, our conversations, he could tell between a president trying to find out what the facts were, trying to do the right thing, and his trying to help out as best he could.
[2:03] And the one thing you probably want to check with him is that piece of paper did show that he knew about that break in the middle of March.
[2:19] You understand?
[2:20] Yes.
[2:21] Because the question makes sense for that reason.
[2:31] I don't think I'd give that piece of paper to anybody.
[2:34] Do you have any obligations to anybody?
[2:37] You see what I'm getting at here?
[2:39] Yes.
[2:41] Yesterday, if the Justice Department knew it in the middle of March, this was the 15th of the middle of April, before they talked to me about it.
[2:51] The question is, why didn't they then?
[3:01] Now, I know the reason, because when I talked to Henry on the 17th, and I don't know who it was, he understood very well, and told him about it, and said, don't you go on another date.
[3:13] And I was very rough.
[3:15] He called me because I was disturbed about the possibility of it.
[3:19] I said, don't go into any action or anything about it.
[3:21] Anyway, he, as I told you, asked the question.
[3:26] whether any of this material ever got to the prosecution.
[3:29] I said, no, there was nothing in it.
[3:31] This was a dry hole, you know.
[3:34] So that's what, it's got to be his defense.
[3:36] Well, he's even got a firm defense.
[3:39] What's that?
[3:41] He had a thorough check started, and I believe it was before he talked with you, at justice, to determine if any evidence could have come from any other source
[3:55] And there, officials vestigialed Howard's affairs.
[4:00] So he knew that this evidence, that he knew about this evidence.
[4:05] And therefore, when I talked to him on the 17th of May.
[4:07] You were merely confirming what the Justice Department records then showed.
[4:11] That's right.
[4:11] He said, did any of the evidence of the hunt, other than that, did he ever get a good time?
[4:15] And I said, no, he did not.
[4:17] So he had a good time.
[4:20] But I can say that in terms of his own conduct, that I could do it.
[4:26] But it was, it was impactful.
[4:30] He, I think, leveled with me as much as he could.
[4:35] I couldn't get what I was really trying to get from him, though.
[4:39] Strangely, at that time, I was really trying to get from him what in the world to do with all of this.
[4:45] I couldn't get any more facts.
[4:47] So I just had to let the newspapers know, which they did.
[4:52] On Dean, the
[4:57] he maybe could be concerned about the fact that I kept him on in that period.
[5:02] But I did until the Friday before, because we had sort of, he didn't directly say, you should keep him on your staff.
[5:10] But the way I put it is, you see, I was in a very awkward position.
[5:14] He had said, Hall and Herbert should be gone, gone.
[5:17] He didn't say Dean should be gone.
[5:18] So I couldn't really, knowing that he had Dean there,
[5:29] I said, well, I couldn't be in a position of firing Dean and keeping hold of everything.
[5:37] That's right.
[5:37] Because he had made the case against them.
[5:40] That's right.
[5:41] So I said to Peterson, in effect, as I recall, I'll keep everybody on.
[5:47] I'll keep Dean on.
[5:49] And the negotiations go on.
[5:51] So I was really less involved with him.
[5:59] Peterson's check was very easy.
[6:03] All the evidence was given to the prosecutors.
[6:05] It was put on the computer.
[6:07] It was got by event, by person, by date and source of the material.
[6:16] None of, nothing that can't be accounted for from one of the official investigations was ever on that material.
[6:23] That is nothing.
[6:24] Oh, I just want to be sure.
[6:30] Peterson, if he does get called, I do think he's one man that will frankly not try to knock the president.
[6:40] I can't concede.
[6:42] But it may be something I don't think we ever had.
[6:48] And fortunately, I did reveal to him.
[6:50] I did talk to him about the business thing.
[6:58] I told him.
[7:00] I told you myself this was after after you see Dean I don't know whether Dean Henry may be the witness who can put that in perspective you see if Dean told you that on the 21st the question is as I say
[7:28] Why didn't I tell him something else?
[7:30] I should have answered on all of it.
[7:32] Dean told me about the president.
[7:36] He is the counsel for the president.
[7:37] He's the one that's supposed to talk.
[7:40] I should have assumed, you know, he would have assumed that I was holding information.
[7:56] Besides, you asked me to write it all down.
[7:59] Well, of course.
[8:02] After all, I can't have a guy come in here and say, I don't know about this and that and the other thing.
[8:08] I'd say, well, let's let me have it right.
[8:11] And Moore is a pretty good witness on that, isn't he?
[8:14] Yes.
[8:16] Moore does verify the fact that I asked on several occasions, can't we get this story out?
[8:21] Yes, sir.
[8:21] No question.
[8:22] I don't want to mislead you on anything, but I...
[8:27] My memory, I think, is very good there, and I think Erlingman says it, Paul says it, that I was the guy who was saying, get this darn story out.
[8:37] Or says that to me.
[8:38] Yes, sir.
[8:39] There's no question.
[8:40] He comes through very well, and he tells it very convincingly.
[8:46] What is the truth in that?
[8:49] He has a problem with things.
[8:51] And another reason we don't want him testifying in front of this, because of this earlier meeting they had in St. Thomas.
[9:00] Dean could make more out of it from Moore's standpoint than Moore actually knew at the time.
[9:07] Oh, the meeting where they undercut him.
[9:08] That's right.
[9:10] As a result of which, Moore went to Mitchell with a message, several messages, one of which was, you know, if you come down here, Moore is involving himself more.
[9:19] And he's a great speaker.
[9:21] Did Moore tell you to do that?
[9:22] Yes.
[9:24] He carried the message.
[9:28] And Moore says that Dean told him that to do that.
[9:32] Does Moore say that Dean told him that LaCosta did that to go tell him he should raise money?
[9:38] Well, there was a discussion between Dean and LaCosta.
[9:45] And in the context it was in, it was perfectly logical.
[9:51] You know, well, they were talking at that time that they needed more money to handle this thing, to provide money for it.
[10:02] And I forgot exactly how they expressed it, but more.
[10:08] But more to say, provide money for legal expenses.
[10:12] That's right, legal expenses and that sort of thing.
[10:15] And it sounded legitimate to him at the time.
[10:17] And he went off on it.
[10:20] Carried a message to Mitchell, and Mitchell rejected it very hard.
[10:28] Three of them?
[10:28] Yes, sir.
[10:29] At that point in time, he... Really?
[10:31] Yes.
[10:33] Apparently, Mitchell had stopped racing one at that time.
[10:37] At some point in the game, because Richard tells me that Mitchell...
[10:48] I told him in no uncertain terms what he could tell him to do about that.
[10:51] I raised the money.
[10:53] Yes.
[10:55] Who the heck do you think was going to raise the money?
[10:57] Nobody else was raising the money.
[11:01] But he apparently at that point didn't appreciate being told to raise money.
[11:06] That was the expression.
[11:07] That was the idea he conveyed to Mowry.
[11:09] I don't know.
[11:09] As I told you about the cost of the meeting...
[11:17] The money part of it was never reported to me.
[11:20] Because I wouldn't have thought it was wrong like that.
[11:25] You know?
[11:27] Neither would you.
[11:28] Thank you.
[11:28] Your people was very intent.
[11:30] And I didn't, I suppose, tell them what they're going to do.
[11:35] I said, thank heaven I wasn't told.
[11:37] Because now all of them, every speak and dime, looked as if it was for the purpose of a cover-up.
[11:56] I never saw that Dean did not see me then.
[11:59] Yes.
[11:59] They don't mean they don't remember that.
[12:01] Oh, yes, he remembers that.
[12:02] He knows not why he didn't see me.
[12:04] Oh, he knows he didn't see you out there.
[12:07] See, La Costa was another place where I wasn't there.
[12:09] He knows he didn't see you out there.
[12:12] And, uh, what he doesn't remember about the logs of the meetings here in January and February.
[12:19] He doesn't remember.
[12:20] Oh, sure.
[12:21] And I know that was why he was so panicky last Saturday to get those logs.
[12:29] Well, he had a story going in the Washington Post he obviously knew about saying that he saw you in the early months of the year repeatedly.
[12:38] Yes.
[12:38] Now, the fact of the matter is he saw you two times in late the last two days of February.
[12:46] He didn't see you at all before that.
[12:49] And he didn't see you in November or December.
[12:52] So...
[12:56] He probably did not remember when it was he started seeing you on the executive privilege line.
[13:02] And he wanted to verify.
[13:04] He thought, in other words, he was hoping it was earlier.
[13:06] Yes.
[13:08] And he was trying to verify.
[13:11] And it didn't work.
[13:14] But you didn't get that chance.
[13:17] No.
[13:17] I thought that was available to him.
[13:20] He didn't ask for the logs.
[13:21] He asked for the logs.
[13:23] But he asked for them from March the 1st.
[13:25] He asked for them for two months in 72, September 9th.
[13:30] And from March 1st to April the 19th in 73.
[13:36] And that's what he had.
[13:37] Because I went back and got the copies that were given to him.
[13:50] Then he asked for the second.
[13:52] From March the 1st to April the 19th.
[13:54] He asked for it on April the 19th.
[14:00] And here, our friend Cox wants to know all meetings that I have had up to the present time.
[14:07] What is the purpose of that?
[14:08] I mean, I...
[14:08] There can be only one purpose, to show that you still trust these people.
[14:15] I do.
[14:17] But I think we want him to get on the record.
[14:20] This gets to a legal technique.
[14:22] We're trying again to look down the road in all possibilities and to have the best case built in any way it moves.
[14:30] So I would like for him to get on the record very precisely why he wants it.
[14:38] You see, why is it presumably, though, that I still talk to them?
[14:43] Do you mean that I talk to them about how to cover up?
[14:47] I'm sure this is the theory that he is working on.
[14:57] But what we want to do in that case is to get him to say that.
[15:03] Because completely aside from the question of executive privilege, which we anticipate we'll probably have a challenge on, if he goes out to the documents,
[15:14] and he will put enough in writing to say that he is investigating the president, then we can also tell him he's on jurisdictional grounds because he has no jurisdiction.
[15:24] So... How can we do that if it's still time?
[15:27] Still always make the preposition the president has nothing to hide.
[15:30] You've got to do that.
[15:32] We will maintain the president has nothing to hide.
[15:35] All right.
[15:36] We've got to do that.
[15:37] that any conversations that have occurred were purely about the transitional matters.
[15:42] I can simply say that.
[15:44] We're writing many things on the business of the present.
[15:49] That's right.
[15:50] And we're trying to do a paper on the... You're responsible to protect the prerogatives of the present and not have them diminished.
[16:07] so that the separation of powers is deteriorating for future presidents.
[16:14] Well, I'll tell you this.
[16:15] We'll lay that out.
[16:16] Let me tell you, nobody can serve in this office in the event that we broke this down further than we broke it.
[16:22] We've gone very far.
[16:24] It's a long way.
[16:25] Very long.
[16:26] Because at the present time, we've got a situation where no president can sit and talk with anybody.
[16:30] He just couldn't.
[16:33] You know?
[16:33] Yes.
[16:34] And this is just...
[16:36] Let me tell you, the next step is not going to be talking about crime.
[16:40] The next step will be coming down and defend why we bombed on December the 18th.
[16:45] They'll say that was illegal, excessive abuse of power, right?
[16:49] Yes, sir.
[16:49] Cambodia did it beyond the power of the Congress.
[16:53] And we insist on the president's meetings.
[16:55] Get it?
[16:55] Yes, sir.
[16:56] Can you read that to them thereafter?
[16:59] Well, we'll have to write this, I think, in a very strong way to be made.
[17:07] Well, we will, but just preparing for all contingencies.
[17:14] That's funny.
[17:16] You think that after Christmas, I know they're going to follow, not get deemed next weekend?
[17:22] Yes, sir.
[17:23] I'm afraid it may be a week later.
[17:25] It depends on how fast the court repeats their moves.
[17:28] And with Judge Fascom down there, there's just no way to tell.
[17:33] But in the meantime, do you think they'll put on a ball earlier than 14th?
[17:37] I doubt it.
[17:39] You wouldn't want to go on for it.
[17:43] No, sir.
[17:44] No, sir.
[17:45] I don't believe they would.
[17:47] Well, how can they avoid it?
[17:51] They may have to divert their hearings or even suspend them.
[17:56] Because the Magruder's Institute, the Magruder's Institute, they can't possibly get to.
[18:03] Yeah.
[18:04] No, no, nothing that can't be accounted for from one of the official investigations we've ever omitted.
[18:21] I just want to be sure.
[18:23] Peterson, if he does get called, I do think he's one man that will, frankly, not try to knock the president down.
[18:35] I can't conceive.
[18:37] But it may be something I don't think we ever had.
[18:44] And fortunately, I did reveal to him.
[18:46] I did talk to him about the business thing.
[18:54] I told him.
[18:58] So I told him myself, this was after.
[19:03] I don't know whether Dean had told him about that.
[19:09] Henry may be the witness who can put that in perspective.
[19:13] You see, if Dean told you that on the 21st, the question is, as I say, why didn't I tell him something else?
[19:26] That's the answer to all that.
[19:28] If Dean told me about it, I'd answer it.
[19:32] He is the counsel of the president.
[19:33] He's the one that's supposed to talk.
[19:36] That's just so, you know, you assume that I was holding information.
[19:52] Besides, you asked me to write it all down.
[19:54] It's just a perfectly logical thing.
[20:01] about this and that and the other thing.
[20:03] And I say, well, let's, let's let me have it, have it right.
[20:06] And, and Moore, Moore is a pretty good witness on that, isn't he?
[20:10] Yes.
[20:12] Moore does verify the fact that I asked him on several occasions, can we get this story out?
[20:17] Does he answer that question?
[20:18] Yes, sir.
[20:19] Could you see me?
[20:20] I don't want to mislead you on anything.
[20:23] I, I, my memory, I think, is very good there.
[20:25] And I, and I think the early one says it, the old one says it.
[20:28] I was the guy that was saying, get this darn story out.
[20:33] Moore said that, didn't he?
[20:34] Yes, sir.
[20:35] He has no question.
[20:36] He comes through very well, and he tells it very convincingly.
[20:42] What is the truth in that?
[20:45] He has a problem with Dean, and another reason we don't want him testifying in front of him.
[20:53] Because of this earlier meeting they had in San Domingo.
[20:56] Dean could make more out of it from Moore's standpoint than Moore actually knew at the time.
[21:03] Oh, the meeting where they got the costume.
[21:05] That's right.
[21:06] As a result of which, Moore went to Mitchell with a message, several messages, one of which was, you know, if you come down here, Moore, you should involve yourself in the war.
[21:15] And it's a great story.
[21:17] Did Moore tell Mitchell that?
[21:18] Yes.
[21:20] He carried the message.
[21:24] And Moore says that Dean told him that, didn't he?
[21:28] Did Morris say that Deet told him and LaCosta that they should go tell him that you should raise money?
[21:34] Well, it was a discussion between Dean Haldeman and LaCosta.
[21:41] Oh.
[21:43] And in the context it was in, it was perfectly logical.
[21:47] Like what?
[21:48] Well, they were talking at that time that they needed more money to handle this thing,
[21:56] provide money for, and I forgot exactly how they expressed it, more.
[22:04] But more would say provide money for legal expenses.
[22:08] That's right.
[22:08] Legal expenses and that sort of thing.
[22:11] And it sounded legitimate to him at the time.
[22:15] And he went home and carried the message to Mitchell.
[22:19] And Mitchell rejected it very much.
[22:24] Yes, sir.
[22:25] At that point in time, he... Really?
[22:27] Yes.
[22:29] Apparently, Mitchell is not raising money at that time.
[22:33] At some point in the game, because Richard tells me that Mitchell told him in no uncertain terms what he could tell him to do about that.
[22:49] All right.
[22:49] Yes.
[22:49] Who the heck do you think is going to raise it?
[22:53] Nobody else was raising money.
[22:56] But he apparently, at that point, didn't appreciate being told to raise money.
[23:02] That was the expression.
[23:03] That was the idea he conveyed to Mullen.
[23:05] I don't know.
[23:09] Because I told you about the cost of the meeting.
[23:13] The money part of it was never reported to me.
[23:16] Because I wouldn't have thought it was wrong at that point.
[23:19] You know?
[23:20] Neither would you.
[23:23] Your people...
[23:25] I didn't...
[23:25] I suppose...
[23:52] I never saw that Dean did not see me then.
[23:55] Yes.
[23:55] They don't mean they don't remember that.
[23:57] Oh, yes, he remembers that.
[23:58] He knows not why he didn't see me.
[23:59] Oh, and he knows he didn't see you out there.
[24:03] See, La Costa was another place where I wasn't there.
[24:06] He knows he didn't see you out there.
[24:09] And what he does remember about the logs of the meetings here in January and February.
[24:15] He doesn't remember.
[24:16] Oh, sure.
[24:17] And I know that was why he was so panicky last Saturday to get his log.
[24:25] Well, he had a story going in the Washington Post he obviously knew about saying that he saw you in the early months of the year repeatedly.
[24:32] Yes.
[24:34] Now, the fact of the matter is he saw you two times in late the last two days of February.
[24:40] He didn't see you at all before that.
[24:45] And he didn't see you in November or December.
[24:48] So...
[24:52] He probably did not remember when it was he started seeing you on the executive privilege line.
[24:58] And he wanted to verify.
[25:00] He thought, in other words, he was hoping it was earlier.
[25:02] Yes.
[25:04] And he was trying to verify.
[25:07] And it didn't work.
[25:10] But you didn't give that to him?
[25:13] No.
[25:13] I thought that was available to him.
[25:16] He didn't ask for the logs.
[25:17] He asked for the logs.
[25:19] But he asked for them from March the 1st.
[25:21] He asked for them for two months in 72, September 9th.
[25:26] And from March 1st to April the 19th in 73.
[25:32] And that's what he had.
[25:33] Because I went back and got the copies that were given to him.
[25:46] Then he asked for the meeting.
[25:48] From March the 1st to April the 19th.
[25:50] He asked for it on April the 19th.
[25:56] And here, our friend Cox wants to know all meetings that I have had up to the present time.
[26:03] What is the purpose of that?
[26:04] There can be only one purpose, to show that you still talk to some of these people.
[26:11] I do.
[26:13] But I think we want him to get on the record.
[26:16] This gets to a legal technicality.
[26:18] We're trying again to look down the road in all possibilities and to have the best case built any way it moves.
[26:26] So I would like for him to get on the record very precisely why he won't.
[26:34] You see, why is presumably, though, that I still talk to them?
[26:38] Does he mean that I talk to them about how to cover up?
[26:43] I'm sure this is the theory that he is working on.
[26:53] But what we want to do in that case is to get him to say that.
[26:59] Because completely aside from the question of executive privilege, which we anticipate we'll probably have a challenge on, if he goes out to the documents,
[27:10] and he will put enough in writing to say that he is investigating the president, then we can also tell him he's on jurisdictional grounds because he has no jurisdiction.
[27:20] How can we do that if it's still time?
[27:23] Still always make the preposition the president has nothing to hide.
[27:26] You've got to do that.
[27:28] We will maintain the president has nothing to hide.
[27:31] We've got to hide it.
[27:32] No.
[27:33] that any conversations that occurred were purely about the transitional matters.
[27:38] I can simply say that.
[27:40] We're writing many things on the business of the present.
[27:45] That's right.
[27:46] And we're trying to do a paper on the... You're responsible to protect the prerogatives of the present and not have them diminished.
[28:03] So that the separation of powers is deteriorating for future presidents.
[28:10] Well, I'll tell you this.
[28:11] We'll lay that out.
[28:12] Let me tell you, nobody can serve in this office in the event that we broke this down further than we broke it.
[28:18] We've gone very far.
[28:20] It's a long way.
[28:21] Very long.
[28:22] Because at the present time, we've got a situation where no president can sit and talk with anybody.
[28:26] He just couldn't.
[28:29] You know?
[28:29] Yes.
[28:30] And this is just...
[28:32] Let me tell you, the next step is not going to be talking about crime.
[28:36] The next step will be coming down and defend why we bombed on December the 18th.
[28:41] They'll say that was illegal.
[28:43] Excessive use of power, right?
[28:45] Yes, sir.
[28:45] Cambodia did it beyond the power of the Congress.
[28:49] And we insist on the president's meetings.
[28:52] Get it?
[28:52] Yes.
[28:53] Can you read that to them thereafter?
[28:55] Well, we'll have to write this, I think, in a very strong way to be made evident.
[29:02] We're actually preparing on this matter.
[29:04] Well, yeah.
[29:05] Actually, as late as we can.
[29:07] Well, we will.
[29:08] We're just preparing for all contingencies now.
[29:10] That's funny.
[29:12] You think that half the person signed out there will follow or not get deemed next week?
[29:18] Yes, sir.
[29:19] I'm afraid it may be a week later.
[29:21] It depends on how fast the court repeats their moves.
[29:24] And with 35,000 down there, there's just no way to tell them.
[29:27] But in the meantime, do you think they'll put on a ball in early before 14?
[29:33] I doubt it.
[29:34] You wouldn't want all of them to go on for days.
[29:39] No, sir.
[29:40] No, sir.
[29:41] I don't believe they would.
[29:43] Well, how can they avoid it?
[29:47] They may have to divert their hearings or even suspend them.
[29:52] Because the McCruder's Institute, the McCruder's Institute, they can't possibly get this.
[29:59] Yeah.
[30:01] Okay.