Conversation 938-006

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Your problems are a hell of a lot different than theirs.

It seems to me you should ask the Congress for the new, for the exporting licensing system.

rather than try to do it by stretching the good of the trade of the enemy, is out.

The Export Administration Act is available, let's say, but I think we should ask it.

Let me ask you, I don't, unless we have that system, will it control with our exporters?

You see, I mean, all exporters must notify the Secretary of Commerce.

Exporters must notify the

the Secretary of Congress has exported orders for drug commodities up to the state of the three states.

In other words, what I'm trying to get at is, is that an empty cannon until we have legislation in power?

The legislation issue is not firm yet.

They think maybe you can do it without legislation.

Well, it says here, yes, an exporting licensing system will be imposed under the Export Administration Act, which provides very doubtful legal authority in this case.

And it will be challenged?

That's right.

And then we can talk about the finding, but we all say I'm going to do it under the Export Administration Act.

But I also ask the Congress for regulatory, which will be clear in this thing.

PL 480, how do we even handle that, can't we?

Well, that's related, of course, to this.

I mean, technically licensing or not issuing it is a determination of shortage.

But I've talked to George about it, and he talked to the aid people.

And I think we've got enough flexibility there.

A, you're going to meet with reaffirming each of your commitments.

B, you can make a determination at a given time on a case-by-case basis.

If there's a hot issue, he seems to think we can make a determination in favor of providing that be out for him.

All right, that's not sorted out sufficiently.

That's why we want to be a little bit careful to keep that post up.

I see a notification.

Well, that's all I think.

Oh, yes.

Absolutely.

I mean, it can be stopped.

There's a degree of softness in there.

They've had justice working on this this afternoon, and the expert on aid.

I think the way you lay this out is manageable, but I just want to check it out.

I wish we'd do it under that Act on Admin.

Request to leave the station.

Well... We've got a lot of things to solve, sir.

And they may even vote it tomorrow.

You, Scott, wrote a letter from you to Mansfield telling them to hold up on the vote that you're going to make in the city.

I think it's far better not to do that and to let our people get up and fight tomorrow and keep the vote from coming.

Which they can do very easily.

Well, we can, we better let the Congress know in the morning that we're going to meet at 6 o'clock and that we're going to go on television.

That lets them know there's a decision.

Right there, see, rather than a letter.

And I would just simply call them and say, oh, this is about that.

We appreciate your holding the vote up.

That's what I'm doing.

That's the better way to do it, I think.

I'm just trying to build up all their morale around here.

Well, I hope you did.

I hope you did.

And I don't think George's morale has been down.

It's been down for a long time because he's overworked.

He's overworked, and he's had a degree of what he considers to be bad news on his economic business.

That's Herb Stein's problem.

I've done what happens a little bit tougher than that.

Yeah.

He just sees it through it.

Al, we couldn't live, we could not live with the idea of just what Andrew said in his cryptic note, tuck it through.

Flanagan says, tuck it through.

We just can't do it.

The Congress won't let us.

And it is the worst time of all to have a defeat imposed on you by the Congresswoman on this fundamental issue.

That's right.

When people are measured.

How do you read Connolly as to what he wants to do or something?

Well, I didn't know that.

I was surprised I didn't talk to anybody.

I heard what you heard.

He's obviously thought about whether or not he wants to be around for the... Captain.

The captain, the official, I suppose.

And I think he's right.

I have a feeling that he's right.

For him to be a captain means he's just not good.

For him to be a...

But I think he should be.

At, uh, like, for example, yeah, he's a quackery head or, uh... Oh, he's just talking about this one issue, sir.

Oh.

He's coming back.

He'll be back Monday.

He's going to work with us on anything you want.

Really?

Yes, sir.

What this is all about is George Schultz.

A public difference has been talked about.

Right.

And he just doesn't want to be undercut George by being here.

I see.

But he'll come back on other issues.

Oh, I'm sorry.

I can't see him.

That wasn't a swan song here.

No.

I thought it was a swan song as far as the cabinet was concerned.

No, sir.

He's talking about this particular economic decision.

Well, he's coming back, fortunately, to the dinner for the freshman.

And he will come to any cabinet meeting that you want him to.

He's already agreed to that.

Good.

And any...

And if he wanted to add anything else, this is a controversial decision.

He wants to keep himself well acquainted here.

How about the energy meeting?

How about him coming to that meeting?

The energy meeting, he's agreed to participate.

He has to.

Is there going to be a meeting on energy services or not?

No, we're still in a hell of a problem.

Payne couldn't make it.

Then Wharton couldn't make it.

Wharton couldn't work.

He just had a heart attack and he said he couldn't take it on.

We're still pressing.

The package is ready to go.

Well.

And I hope it'll be ready to go Thursday, but maybe we'll get it slimmer until we get the right guy.

And I don't see any reason to buy a pig in a poke.

Oh, I'll do this this week, but I can go, huh?

If we don't have the right guy, that's what we should do.

The important thing is to have a man that can do it right after all for this job.

Do it right.

We went to get the FBI guys and we got the ride last year.

Sure.

And we're not that frank on this thing.

I mean, this is hell.

It's an economic thing to ride for.

And Henry, I think, I am confident Henry's going to get it.

All right.

I know these bastards, they've gone through the same thing they did with us.

Remember, I left Saigon when it turned down and I, within 24 hours, had had it.

Now, and also Whitehouse, you see, told me, when I talked to him, he said, if you've got the election thing, we'll have it.

We've got their language on the election, exactly the way they asked for it.

And you see, they tapped.

Yeah.

They tapped, and he would have said that.

He's saying that for positive knowledge.

So we've got two good items of news, and then we're going to have to price them.

on Saturday, which would be damn good.

I'm also upset about John's letter.

I'm upset about it for a couple of reasons.

Well, let me tell you why I showed it to you.

I showed it to you because he sent it privately.

No, I'm great.

I want you to know that you cannot have any relationship with me unless you know every darn answer I come.

And let me say, it did upset me a bit.

I just wanted to get your judgment on it.

That's all.

Why were you upset?

He personally didn't write it.

That he'd write it?

He never called me.

He never said a word.

If he had any problem with my style, I'd expect to hear from him, not run into you with it.

Yeah, yeah.

And secondly, I don't think it's right.

That's the point.

He's wrong.

He's not calling you and the understandable people and saying, well, if I wired it, it's all the same thing.

Give me a minute.

He knows the circumstance.

And now I've talked about it.

I've told about it to Paul in the meantime.

He sees something in other ways.

Because I value Bob's judgment.

It's just, it just brought a buckshot in there.

Yep.

I'll leave it with you.

And I don't like him to take all the land unless he really knows what he's talking about.

Now he refuses to defend you and apologizes to you to every reporter he has lunch with.

These fellows apparently don't care that you are invited to your life personally.

Yeah, that's hardly a fair thing to say, but... You're a wild liar, as wild as you.

Let's put it on the line.

First, the vice president is going to resign.

Second, Shultz is not going to resign, is he?

Huh?

He's hatched?

Why not?

That's why I asked you, sir.

My God.

Shultz, but Shultz, you think he's unnoticed?

All I did was a voting bill conference.

Because he moved Larry.

Larry.

Well, that's just wrong as hell.

Larry's appointment was brilliant.

It was a platform that's turned this whole damn debate.

I'm really shocked at that.

I don't think you have to be told things like that that are not true.

That's serious business.

Well, I haven't heard one.

Derogatory companion John Connolly was for Laird.

I talked to John Connolly about that.

I think you did, weren't you?

I talked to Bob Holden about Laird's appointment.

He was very enthusiastic about it.

I didn't talk to John, quite frankly, because I don't think we should be talking to him.

No.

But I always find a way of getting to Bob, either to attract me or to lie to him.

So he knows everything we're doing, because I value his judgment.

Yes, and also you.

Well, anyway, I think, actually, another thing that John said that is totally untrue is that if you're here, that I am less successful than that.

It's totally new.

I've never known you to meet with more people.

You've had the economics meet people in Congress.

But now it's totally different.

I bet everybody wanted to come in.

You hauled in, you hauled in all sorts of people.

Far hauled in.

You should see.

In fact, we've opened the place up then.

That's right.

I don't understand that.

If he means you're not meeting with Ken Cole every day, or... No.

We've got him on, and that supplements it.

But who else has there been here?

Hell, I've been operating.

There's been Ron and myself.

I know.

Roy Ash is good for a lot of things, but... No, I understand.

What I think we can do, actually, I think really, I think it's good to see the city for this reason.

I think we're doing the right thing.

And I think when we get aboard the Harlow and Laird team, now we've got to, you've got to keep Laird in mind.

He mustn't get out there and act as if he's running the whole show.

He's got to be part of a team.

Let me be quite explicit.

You're HR, do you understand?

Not Laird.

You are the man in charge at this time.

Now, he must have things that he kept coming without you.

I don't want you in the room every time he's here.

That's a waste of your time.

I mean, yet I am.

In terms of the overall staff business, I mean, just like Haldeman was in charge, John Ridley was in charge, Haldeman was.

But you're in charge even more now, even more, because you have substantive understanding in areas that Bob Haldeman didn't.

Like, for example, you're the kisser

You are also, frankly, Laird's babysitter.

Now, I will see Laird alone, and I will see Harlow alone.

I do think that what we can do, Shen, we can.

Maybe you ought to bring in the three together.

Now, one problem at all coming in is that Frank is a little wordy.

You know, he takes quite a bit of time.

You could break that in and maybe have him come in and have Sigler come in, too.

I think Sigler is quite an asset in this kind of thing.

I mean, he actually is.

Yes, sir.

The other one I was trying to think of was...

In terms of our... No, if you start going on...

I've got to find a way to... No, but we see Ann Armstrong and Roy Ash and so forth

One thing I was thinking of, we changed the staff meeting in the morning.

Mel, Bryce, Ash, Ron, myself, and Kissinger.

And once a week, if you could just pop in.

Sure.

Well, you know, if I'm in a state, he's available at 5.30 in the morning.

On a Thursday or a Friday, yeah.

Wait a minute.

It wouldn't have to be each week, but just in case, how it should be every week.

Let's set a time, because if I don't do it every week, I'll skip a month, and all of a sudden, the notes are out of time.

No, I'm getting down to the point where I think regularity is a good idea, just so that, like the cabinet, they're going to meet regularly, like the Congress, they meet regularly, and then

Well, we haven't seen them for a couple of weeks, and you know, they... Well, Wednesday would be a good day, I think.

Wednesday would be fine.

We'd have an agenda ready to keep it very quick and short, but just so they feel your presence and access.

Excellent.

That's been a week or so.

I don't think he does, because I've been very careful about it.

He knows that I had to take a different position than I wanted to, but pragmatism requires

As far as the problems were based, when he was having his rare problems, it was just a week after my first week here.

We were in a place where he was low.

He came into my room and I sat around until 2 o'clock.

And since then, since he went to Europe, he's been just fine.

So John may have gotten this, he may be accumulating ideas that he's done this for some time, but I just don't believe it was any problem with George Shultz.

I mean, he's a very direct fellow, he's talented.

Now he's had terrible problems with Ash.

Terrible problems.

The purchase between Shultz and Ash are unbelievable.

And the same is true between coal and ash.

That's the problem with our staff.

And I'll tell you frankly where it came from.

It came from an organizational arrangement built by John Ehrlichman that was a disaster.

In which he gave to ash, not only the largest staff in the family, but gave them substantive responsibilities, which were policy and political in character.

Well, not any one of these guys in that area.

He's a first class guy, but he had a charter that was just damn dangerous and they were running wild here for a couple of weeks.

Ken Cole was on the verge of, uh, blowing up.

So was George.

Now that, we've gotten under control, and very well.

And what about Cole, sir?

Should I have him in there or something?

Ken Cole is a, he's the finest man on the staff, in my view.

He's done already.

I just don't want him to feel that I, you know, am apart from him or anything.

Well, you, I think that he's another one that you might hold his hand.

Tell him that.

I just want him to know that, uh,

I think he does a hell of a job, and when Blair gets here, I'm going to count on him to see that nothing falls under his shoes.

Yes, sir.

But your sense is that you've caught that, and you've handled that very nicely with both Blair and the cabin, and I think it's as nice as you did.

And he's been flying.

The other thing I was going to say, when that guy comes in, I think you should be with him.

I have not had him alone a couple of times, and I have found that every time he goes out, total dispersions of what I've said.

I agree with that, sir.

Don't you agree?

Yes.

In these spots, we can't fathom.

People can never question.

We'll see him on Thursday.

And that we're all set to move on, because I've talked to Bryce about handling the vice president, and Laird, of course, has already started.

working on it.

He's unsettled.

Every time new people come in, people get unsettled.

Especially a guy like Weir.

That unsettles people.

But that doesn't mean that they're ready to resign if their morale is low as I've seen.

Hell, I've never known our staff to be up.

I think they're up better than we were before.

They're all one hundred percent right then.

Captain's up because they feel that we're playing there, actually.

And you know,

You can read it in the newspapers.

This stuff leaks out of this building.

And it's being ridden.

That kind of stuff is always a reflection of morale.

The first two weeks I was here, we kept hearing all the funny things about everything's stopped.

Morale's down at the first hole up in their offices.

That's disappeared.

I just don't, you've got enough on your mind, enough to worry about without that kind of nonsense.

Yes, I know.

I don't like to see you have to be put through that.

Well, I want you to know that I'm not to, I'm not lying to get me down, but I just want you to know that I just want to lay off the problem and lock it in there with any problem with any of these guys.

I don't really see how I can see many more.

I mean, a lot of these guys don't realize it.

I got a hold of those commies.

I got a hold of Henry's.

You know what I mean?

You probably don't know how often I have to call him.

I call him three or four times a day.

Just to cheer him up.

You know, if he doesn't talk to you, he pats you.

Yep.

I don't mind.

It's worth it.

I don't know.

Well, we're doing great.

We're doing fine.

I don't know why that John, that John didn't mention the Saudi police.

I mean, the lawyer that's on our side here, I don't know.

Why do you think he's supposed to get into the government?

Well, his lawyer is in the government.

I told you, because of the anti-Jewish attitude.

I must say, you know, the Glenn government,

He's working about 16 hours a day.

He's here late at night.

I get him any time.

He's always got his antenna up for things we should be doing.

A lot of times I don't agree with him.

But he is totally dedicated to doing the job.

And while I don't agree with him, that's something else again.

It's good to have that guy.

Sure.

I got to realize that he went about three-quarters of being with us quickly.

Is there any way that we should follow up on Conley?

I mean, he didn't think he could come.

I think if you would call him tonight and say that the president was very disturbed because he was stressed because he thought that he was saying he wouldn't come to any cabinet meetings.

He would like him in all cabinet meetings and all energy meetings in the future if he's willing to come to cabinet energy and NSC.

I'm going to have him in the NSC too.

He's a very valuable man to have around.

I'm telling you, that's what I'd like to have.

The NSC, the cabinet, the MG.

But that doesn't pose any problem with anybody else.

Dr. Armstrong, call me in that cabinet.

It's a hell of an answer.

You know, he made it very clear to me back on Monday.

I'll be back on Monday.

He was worried about this economic decision.

He thought it would be misinterpreted.

He was here that he could get free.

That he overruled George Shultz and George.

He wants George to be the spokesman.

No, he was right on that.

See, I know Collins.

Collins had a cute skirt because Clements told me it was.

I've had several talks with him over the weekend.

I've talked to him a dozen times.

Twice a day this morning.

He'd tell me if he had a problem.

He's a very direct guy.

Now, I knew when he wasn't happy, and I came in and told Justin.

Yeah, but everybody had seen him.

Ken, he was unsettled, by the way.

He likes to be single at all times, and sometimes I would like to do it, but I haven't had quite the energy to do it safely.

But I think a meeting like this, he likes it.

He loves it, didn't he?

You know, you're very sources of what you ask us to use on each point.

Well, I mean, who else in that whole group could give me a political view?

George Shultz, Herb Stein, Roy Hedge, not even you.

You know what I mean?

No way.

John Compton knows the farmers, he knows the milk producers, he knows the thing that he keeps from making some terrible mistakes.

No, I tell you what I mean.

I was a great admirer of his.

He's a really fine individual.

He's smart.

And selfless, really, although he's...

Yes, he's not a fool.

He wants to help the country.

That's right.

He didn't turn around and got on that plane tonight.

If you've asked him to, I'm glad you didn't, because I think the best thing for him is to be alive all the time.

Well, I wanted these guys to get the impression that even today we have to think a hell of a lot about their problems.

There are other things going on in the world.

Everybody around here, you know, thinks there's

The only thing that matters is what they're going to heck.

I've seen Ash this morning, I've seen, I've seen Scowcroft, I've, uh, talked to her, cleared a couple, you know, messages and so forth.

I've talked to you, I've talked to Sigurd, you know, Sigurd.

Yeah, that's right.

There's nothing that you deal with that's anything but just damn tough, and it's not something you just roll off.

Right.

The Kissinger problem today was really brutal.

Yeah.

Talking to Sarge on the phone.

I'm going to accept that the preparation needs got applied.

I'm not going to make it.

I'm letting the fire, I mean, I'd be glad to get it over with.

I'd be glad when it's done because I think it's going to be, we're out of trouble soon, it's going to be a hell of a lot worse than the uncertainty of a skyrocket walking around.

I don't think it's going to be that.

That's significant.

Well, he could have done it.

He could have more than said.

He could have lost.

I don't know.

He could have lost.

Well, he's died a couple of times, we know.

Yeah, it was just a question of time.

Once he lays it out, we just pick him at that.

I had a picture of him on this bit when they ended up...

He had a...

Bizarre story that... That was back in January, but Dean told me in March that it had just come out.

I didn't know.

Oh, I see.

From March 21st on, I think anything that I said or did was a...

pretty well-positioned, you know what I mean?

You see, that's right.

And that Pittman thing, the guy that's really in deep trouble on that is, that's self-incrimination.

He needs to go.

You never did.

You didn't do anything, but he'd been sitting on it for a long, long time.

Well, he didn't say that I told him to go out and pay the money, or get the money.

I didn't.

Like he said about our little girls, we told him to get mad.

It's a lie.

But you see, that's the point.

You're up against a clever liar.

I don't know what you're up against.

He's already said that we would pay, which he's never said, a million dollars.

I said, we could raise a million dollars.

It was a very good thing.

And I know there's a hell of a lot of people who do that.

Oh, but why didn't we do it?

Why wouldn't we have done it?

Yeah, why did we keep everybody quiet?

It wouldn't work.

Apart from us being wrong.

Well, all I wanted to do was let them slip.

Each week, we gathered a little more strength.

Even though they hit a little harder, we can take it a little better.

I think we're going to be able to miss this one.

It's the worst thing.

The best would be a lot.

But frankly, after we get Dean off, I'm not going to give a hell of a lot of thought to it, because Holland and Irving only tell stories of being conflicted in some ways.

supporting another, but they're not going to be hurting the president.

Neither are those.

He was told in the talk of Irving's letter that he isn't about to hurt me.

He's a diver.

He's a tranquil conceiver.

Oh, sir.

Neither were Colson.

Colson?

Yeah.

Well, I'm just going to sit here this night.

Good job.

I'll see you later.

Thank you.