Conversation 941-002

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I decided to put a lot into it.

We had a lot, you know, a very strong record.

It's not this record that we're going to stop.

This is going to be permanent.

We're going to move to the free market.

And, you know, that's the important thing.

To let everybody know where our goals are now.

The other thing, too, is the fact that Congress are stuck on spending, stuck on the Farm Bill, stuck on getting those extra 30 surplus commodities which will help, and that sort of thing.

We did a great thing for the lake.

We made them pay.

They got to be responsible.

Responsible.

Responsible and responsive as well.

He was very supportive.

He said, well, now it depends on how your negotiations come out.

He's really interested in that.

He knows.

We have started a process of

seeing to it that we are sensible and absolutely de-sensible to our job and don't go back to you have nothing there frightening if you say gosh it's going to be pushing phase two right out it is the turn to the food and gas you know we just might get a break here at one point we might do we might get that turn at the end of the 60 days which is a massive turn to get up get up I mean

He could have.

He was due for so long.

He was due for a...

He was due for a piece of good luck.

Bad luck, huh?

Well, Mr. President, I ask to see you.

You've had it done.

I have concluded this by tying it up in a question.

And I need to say that because I love you.

I really do.

I think you are just doing a terrific job in every way.

I support you completely.

and I don't like very hard to know that John and Bob probably did some things that shouldn't have been, I don't know.

But I hate to see men get panicked the way they are because they're two great fellows in my personal experience.

But I don't think

I have felt that I don't have the same degree of confidence of you that I've had in the past.

And I, um, and I didn't, you know, get rid of the problems that I had.

And I don't, it's a different, um, it's a different array from here than it was in the past.

I was pretty close to that, yes.

Yeah, and I find I don't, I don't work with Roy Anson, I don't know, I don't trust him.

I've heard of him.

Like, Mel, I admire.

I think he's terrific.

I don't know if he would take the job, but he is.

He's too smart for me.

He's too tricky for me.

He's too, he's big stuff and maneuvers and manipulates.

It's just not my world at all.

I'm just not put that way.

So I find people who are close friends of mine who offer jobs here.

I don't even know if they offer jobs.

They call me and say, what should I think about this job?

I don't know.

So I just...

Happy viewing on that story.

We're going to have to record eight of you.

Well, apparently they are together to be an assistant to the president, and that's going to be a pretty nasty thing to also.

Well, I think we're both sensational people.

If I was a good friend of mine, I would think if you could get him, it would be great.

The guy that I would just get him.

He's strange.

He's got it in that.

He's spiteful.

He's frictionless.

He's quiet.

He's a musical chair.

He's in between all the various things.

I don't think we can get him.

Let me, uh, I think that, uh, that's, uh, so, uh,

As you know, I really disagree.

I would have to say that I don't quote your decision.

If I were president, I probably would decide the same way you did.

So I don't call for decisions.

But you don't have to face the pragmatic situation in Congress.

I don't have to face the pragmatic situation in Congress.

I don't argue with them.

I don't call for decisions.

But then I have to say to myself, where does that leave me?

I can't, nobody considers me a credible manager of the control program because it's well done and I don't believe it.

I can't be a good advocate for you.

I wouldn't, I'll be a terrible witness before the Congress on the program because I don't, I don't have the capacity to turn myself around in a way, you know, most people in Washington are able to do, you know, and that's just not me.

And then I think I could

It would be a good thing for you in your turn to be a long-term objective of getting out of control.

I think it's important that somebody objects.

And I think people know how much I love the job I have as Secretary of the Treasury.

I know you don't like that kind of stuff, but I do.

And I love the job.

It is a great job.

And I love being in your system and everybody knows, I think, how attached I am to you.

So I would give up these opportunities lightly.

So at least I would register somebody here.

Maybe I could steer myself on having a group or something like that.

But I think it could do the whole program some good.

So that's, I've thought about it.

Let me begin.

they have to be mine as well

I mean, it's no secret that I share your ego with Eliza Hogan, and I'm helping her out and freeing people like that.

So George Shultz said to me, I said, what do I get in it?

The Albert?

Well, let's see, the same point is, in regard to the relationship between us, it does change.

Mel Laird is going to be very involved in it.

L.A. wasn't like a trojan to try to keep everybody.

It sounds beautiful, but you're not trying to keep the people that are like them doing this with you.

There's another one you have to remember, Mel.

Without sex.

Very much.

And that's very important.

Actually, strong-willed men.

The point is, when Bob and John left, a vacuum was created.

I'm sure I should have that back.

Now, Malcolm, he sees it, so we've already had a problem now.

He's not going to be...

So, you know, I'm horrible at it.

You've got to get back.

Very well.

That's the limit.

Not just your congressional system.

That's what we're going to have to do.

I said, you know what?

I think that would be great.

We'll be in the right place.

Very good.

Now, let's talk about it.

If you're given the impression George is married to this man, well, it seems to be the same.

It seems to be the same.

People don't like to say that, but look, the Treasury's got taxes.

The Treasury's also got the intervention of, I don't know, a business.

The great portfolio, I'm just speaking of, that where we get, frankly, is the money from all those places we want.

uh uh

I can see the problem.

You're going out there and saying this is the right thing to do.

But I can also assure you that in terms of this administration, at this point in time, for you to leave, the people, a lot of them, especially to the military, Bob Trey, many others would undoubtedly write to you.

Thank you.

The Watergate, that affected me the other way.

I said, the Watergate affected me the other way.

The point is, George, that really, we just can't have you leave now.

It would be very, very close.

And frankly, I think everybody else is true, that I trusted you.

I mean, I don't know if he doesn't know about it.

Peterson's attorney.

I don't know if he knows about it.

Anyway, I don't know if he knows about it.

But the attorney legislation and the tax legislation, and Franklin, to be an anchor that whimpered on this old man in control's legislation.

You've got to leave it around this place.

And that's really what it gets down to.

And I just feel it.

I feel it.

If I can say so, I can understand your reaction.

I wouldn't call it overreaction, but your reaction to the, what is it called, the blow that's coming to the moon.

It's incredible.

But I just thought we've got to do it.

What can't I do?

Bang.

What would you do?

What great, great people, lovely people,

now they don't have now who the hell else they're still these instructions you see mel can't do it

Metal was used in society primarily to heal the sins and then working out the demons on this or that or the other thing that actually worked out the kind of time.

The farm veto or the parents veto or this or that or the other thing.

But the idea of, I don't know the name, lack of confidence in Idaho, it's created, it's created, because new people are brought in.

And I'll say, well, that means somebody else is going to show up.

But the new people are being brought in, the police, and we have two great big Indian police.

And frankly, I have the respect to killing myself, frankly, to do it all.

I'll tell you that there are others where there's no others.

I could ask you to say, at least in reserve, at this time,

Well, you have.

I think one of the things that I have accomplished here is I've identified some good people

That's right.

You're a security.

I know.

Very good fellow in the Treasury and Simon, too.

Oh, sure.

John Dunlop has a, uh, is the world's best dealer with labor.

He's great.

Yeah, but I can't call him up because I call you up and say, you know, you go up to people and do this, that, and the other.

George, there are just so many areas of this that you're indispensable.

Now the energy that I do think should be, should be

put off into a, you know, into a upgrade into whatever you call it, a czar, or whatever you can get it, and get it out with Tracy, of course, like a very important role in it.

But Morton, you know, there's this panic he had.

The state wants to get his fingers in it.

The defense has got his fingers in it.

And it's very, very difficult to handle most of the time.

And the Congress is sort of grumbling.

And they've got some spills on there.

That's the only thing.

It seems to me that it's another thing, too.

You've been traveling the whole world doing everything.

And doing them all too well.

But I can say that it's good that he's crossing now.

It's going to be about 3 o'clock.

Yeah, I'll come back and see you.

I have to go.

But George Lee, your old friend, who you are, I'm sure you... Ken, you are innocent.

You really are.

You're innocent.

And we just have to find ways to work our way out of this damn box that we're in.

I know what this was.

I did it with no stock at all.

I needed clearance or something, but I didn't have it before.

We can do it.

Now, as far as the testifying is concerned, that does not testify.

You know what I mean?

You can work that out.

I don't see any reason why you have to go up there and do the thing.

Maybe we have to make a change like that.

But look, you're a strong operator, George.

You can't work harder than this man.

You're coming.

Now, let's say we've got the year in Europe coming up.

Sure, that year is going to be primarily about trade.

And who am I going to be marketing?

Yeah.

Trade?

Usually the whole broad picture is better than anybody else.

They know you.

We've got some trade things in the Russian package.

Trade, taxes, leaving out all the other things in the trade.

The advisor who steals energy and so forth.

I mean, not only the advisor, but the whole world trade.

is consistent with the others and will not overburden the penetration.

And then of course, on wage and price, it really gets down to the point that I've got to have somebody around here who believes as I do and who is smart enough to stand up against something large and something huge.

Who is smart enough to, and practical enough, to, to help so dumb enough and help that is awful.

Because there's nobody else in the church.

I know this government.

There is nobody else, and they can't do it.

The brain can't do it.

I must add, they have no laborers.

If they have no laborers, nobody else can do a church.

Everybody else knows me well, but he doesn't know the others well.

You know them all.

And I agree with you.

I think you have an idea of the way to do things.

happened a week ago today.

I'm over in Paris, and I'm doing these two speeches at the press conference.

And the first question is, today in Washington, Mel Laird said that we're going to have a strong waste price program, and we're going to do something about the value of the dollar.

And what's your comment?

I said, well, I don't know.

We're those who have sold the dollar for

There's something about the value of the dollar, which, of course, in that context means intervention.

Well, let me try to explain it.

It's my comment.

I said, well, I don't have any comment on something that somebody quotes that I've ever thought of earlier.

Let me tell you a little something.

Larry probably didn't know it.

He doesn't know Larry.

He's my impression.

He didn't tell me about it.

Well, I have to tell you.

Mal will take program.

He's hard to handle.

He'll take program if he has to control it.

But he's got help for that question.

He did not get the planning of his son.

Because Mal basically is a man that likes power.

He reaches it.

He's a good man.

I admire him.

He doesn't have to do it.

I'm all for it.

But he doesn't know enough about whether or not he's going to be done.

He doesn't know any more about the 90s, which is not a real thing.

Well, he doesn't know what the debate is about intervention.

And if you say he's going to do something about the value of a dollar, that means the people of the U.S. government.

I can assure you, they know that that's going to happen, because we're going to have this small thing.

We're going to meet together.

You see, here to here, if you've got any...

That's doing basically what Jesus said, you know, be a dish, be a great guy, and hey, we'll not get into the substance of even helping him like that.

We shouldn't.

But you've got to take the journey back.

But beyond that, you know, that male domestic council working with COVID.

Because you'll have, you'll have Harlow doing a great, just sort of floating around, coming in very, we've got wise comments from time to time.

He will have you.

He will have Ash.

And that's it.

Now, but we've all got to sit down and work these out together.

Now, Ash, the program he's told, I've talked to him occasionally since I've been stuck in so-and-so place.

He's right about vetoes.

In my opinion, he's wrong in terms of the activity with which he sends, with which he

We're rejecting the pitch he talks to our own friends.

We're not working on a strategy that might have worked for you.

That's where we have the problem with that issue.

And also, here at UW, in NARS, and online, and in Harlow.

Harlow talked to me this morning.

He said, we cannot have the Bureau of the Budget making the policy decisions for this kind of government.

Absolutely right.

We're not going to make the policy decisions.

It cannot be done.

They influence it, of course.

And so, where are they made?

Well, they're made, obviously, in the departments.

And as far as the White House comes into it, they're made through our domestic counsel and whatever it may be.

But you see, George, you're the leading economic man in the whole mankind.

Nobody else has got your brains.

Nobody else has got your guts.

I don't know.

They're not even in your league.

You know, they're all nice people, but there's a nice old man, a nice old friend, a nice old friend.

Right over there, he's a pleasant little guy.

And so on and so on.

But either it's parochial, or basically this is an act of charge.

They're right for what they're doing, but they don't have the scope, the understanding, the breadth that you've got.

And I think it would be a great role for people around the country, my friends, and my, frankly, ideological friends, to say George Soros is gone.

So I just feel you've got to say, at this time, if you will.

And I do think you should say, as a matter of fact, George, I think you should say, give me a chance to work this damn thing out.

Because I have plans.

I can go off and talk to Dallas from this time.

And I told him my own concerns.

And we got Harlow and 15 of them.

I think, as a matter of fact, unless you disagree, that if we could get Scranton into this administration, we could do that.

Not that he is particularly, on the heart, going to be loyal, in the sense that, you know, you like him or you don't like him, but Scranton has a great believability and credibility in governors, political leaders,

press and the rest and he has demonstrated that when he does get something the real substance he does work when you think of it well i like it it's a very light book off the uh

I don't, I see, I've watched you operate.

I have my admiration for your command leadership.

He doesn't have that kind of...

He may have had a built-up architecture.

I don't talk to people that believe in his government.

They said it was amazing.

He was a strong man.

Very good governor.

But the trouble with him is his wife.

Which is the trouble with most of us.

Not most of us.

We'll put it that way.

And Mary, of course, is so strong that she makes him like mom's boy.

And he also had a very strong mother.

I was surprised that he was fixed to this energy job, because I didn't have any feelings.

He either had the knowledge of the subject, or he had a great feeling about the subject.

He had a great feeling about the subject.

He traveled extensively from Guinea, so he was quite well familiar with that whole problem.

But above everything else, he's got an enormous, I mean a very significant administrative company.

Now understand, he would have to have

he's just gonna go sit on top of that damn pile and uh the other people sign who's right uh whoever they got in the space they're both all the experts you know we all know these things somebody else has got to go out and sell a job it's a solid job

We have no bureaucratic interest in the Treasury.

We're not involved in it.

And we're glad to let somebody else do it.

We've been doing it because nobody else has been doing it.

But it is in terms of economics, of course, it is, I think, primarily an economic problem.

So about crisis and supply and demand and stuff like that.

But I would add an awful lot of politics.

Well, that would be a hard one.

You take, for example, the Alaska pipeline's politics.

The whole thing is international politics.

And otherwise, it would be great.

That's how you would tax it.

It has to do with the government.

And that's where it's at.

That's where it's at.

But if you take that, if you take the Rogers mark, he thinks it belongs over in the interior.

They've got it all sealed.

And you take that.

And then, of course, there are other pieces that it belongs.

And the Atomic Energy Commission comes and goes there.

Sure.

They're all there.

I think the organization proposes pretty good to have a new energy research group, including a company.

And if they can put more money

and put more money in it.

That's one of the things I got to learn out of that.

When the burst energy message went, we got that cut out.

Well, there's one thing I'd like to really know, George, is if you know how to make some parts on the floors, what would you do?

But I, when I was both down there in that corridor with Captain and Mrs. Dewey, I thought to myself, in fact, there's a lot of trees, and I don't know what happened, but I thought to myself, it's a pretty easy search.

And I am excited that we've got to put more in.

I just want you to spread the word.

Don't put it all in.

I know their best.

I know Stanford's best.

I know Chicago's best.

But maybe Florida Tech will do it.

They seem to have been, you know, rather bright people.

They weren't moralists.

I mean, they might be stars.

That's all I'm trying to get at.

So, you know, I'll tell Ash, and that mouse is going to go up to Washington or wherever it is.

I want you to tell him that.

Remember, you discussed that about the... All right, now, I have changed my mind.

I'll be fair to him.

I have changed my mind.

I've got to...

It's very important that you save this time.

I don't mean, I'm not saying that you just save it a little while.

But I want you to say, and give me a chance to give it a chance.

Would you do that?

That's what I want to see.

I better get out of here as fast as I can with the persuasions off while I'm at it pretty well.

I hope your mind is made up.

Let me tell you.

Let me work the damn thing out.

And instead, I've got a lot of work to do with some other people.

I've got to work.

I've got to get some help from Harold.

See, Harold will wish you all the letters, too.

Resurrect him.

Laird, he was an enormous partner.

But he's like a runaway edge.

He's got his strength.

Laird will be affected, but he'll follow and find his energy.

Ash is affected, but Laird will balance him off.

And you'll find dealing with him.

So then Ash will be a lot better around here than Laird will.

So you can have your buddy now.

But you versus him, that's no good.

That's family.

Those fights are not unusual.

Well, you know, I don't think...

I don't know.

You're nice.

I had a good relationship with Erickson and all of them.

And I just told them my position.

I didn't try to battle anybody.

I'm just not interested in that.

I know you're not.

I don't care about it.

I know you're not.

On the other hand, look, you are keenly aware of your abilities, of your brains, your negotiating abilities, and so forth.

And also, you've got to be keenly aware of the fact that in terms of basic economic judgment,

that I look to do more than anybody else around me, especially you.

Yeah, I understand the emphasis I have.

Arden got those top-right schemes on taxes and the rest of it.

How about that?

I think Arden's fine.

But he should keep working on the interests of the Fed and not be too hard on us in the other areas.

He's going to tear us up on this program.

He is going to tear us up.

He's very unhappy.

What's he going to tear up?

I don't know exactly, he said.

Well, he thinks 60 days is too long for... ...practices to be frozen while wages go up, and I said, well, I don't think... Oh, it may not be 60 days.

It could be less than 60 days.

It could be less than 60, and also, if wages go up, we'll freeze them.

That's it.

Well, Harker has told me about wages.

He also has told me about, well, the news of taxes...

Dad, I know you can't get a peck to go through that Congress.

I'm not going to do that Congress.

For six months, probably a year.

You know that, George.

They talk big, but they say they'll send something out on Christmas and Christmas tree.

That's all.

I know they have a mind.

It's going to be terrible.

I've got to go now.

Well, I told him I was going to get an argument with him.

He said pretty good of me this morning.

Mr. President, I have to leave and come in today because I know you have a... Oh, yes, I'm sorry, I'm sorry about it.

You see Mark Barton next to you over there?

I am.

You should have come to the right of my field.

And I wonder if I could come back to you right after, Mr. President, please.

I will.

I would rather...

I'm a little discouraged right now.

No, no, no.

I would rather you...

I'd rather do this.

I'd rather have depression.

You'll come back in 30 days.

You've got depression.

I won't be leaving.

I'll be in California.

Just let's think about it.

Let's see what we can get done.

See, I've got about five days before that bomb comes here.

And I need about the next week to get things really, really worked around the way we want.

But I just feel it's very important for you

I will discuss this with the committee.

I think I should.

I will not mention it to anybody else, but I would appreciate it if you... No, I don't think so.

I don't think you should.

I don't think so.

I'll sell it out.

I'm sorry?

I'll sell it out.

I think it might be better.

It might be all right.

All right.

What about us?

I would if you'd prepare me not to.

Yes, I'll make it.

I don't have a doubt you're not going to ask me about it.

I'll make it.

That's full confidence.

We're going to beat this.

It's going to work.

It's all there is to it.

It's got to be.

Don't hope there wasn't that possibility that, uh,

The greatest contribution I could make to getting rid of wasted price controls would be to show that somebody cares a lot about us, about us, and is willing to give up something at the next time.

Ah, I understand.

Now that's putting it in terms of the loss of prisoners of understanding.

Not enough.

The way you would show you do care is from the inside, from people that copy you.

Which I would like him to have done.

Not from the outside, but doing something there.

You've got to do it from the inside.

George, I know so many people who do.

If I just get out and I prove something.

It doesn't prove nothing.

It's one day left.

But I'm sure that I know at least a billion of them.

No, sir, brother.

I know, sir.

And it'd be a very great blow at the weighting price of Joseph.

So you leave and aren't a nurse for yourself.

But we can't have that church.

We've got to have a feeling of some confidence and stability at this time.

Let me put it this way, so that we get a little bit better in the time frame.

I need a week's rest of the freshman season.

We're going down to the press.

And could we say to you, Coveney?

Okay.

How about the, how about coming out on the 10th of July?

If you see it doesn't even work, I'm ready to be leaving on the 20th.

I'm seriously so, I'd like to take the next week to over the 4th of July this time of the week.

Or the next week from the 4th of July to the office in the following week.

So... And I'd like to get you to do it in yellow form.

So what I would suggest you to do, if you'd like, you could come out on Friday the 6th and spend the weekend, you know, and just get together.

Or shall we say the night?

I'll tell you the night, the Monday.

Okay.

I mean, one day is going to make that much sense.

The night was fun.

I just picked up death because everything happened with intent.

The night was fun.

I would have just come out on the weekend at the 6th, 7th and 8th.

Enjoy your show.

And then I would have gone to the beach and get together with my mom.

Fair enough.

Don't make up your mind before you come.

I had it made up before I came here.

You're too persuasive.

Don't make up your mind.

I just sent you a letter.

Let's see how we did.

Max is good at that.

He's got me right on the 4-inch mark.

Everybody needs a mark.

All right.

We'll see you later, Kevin.

Jeremy, do you know about Arthur?

Just know Arthur's in high budget.

He'll sound off, so let him sound off.

Maybe it'd be a good idea.

Arthur's been the big...

Booster controls, if he knocks the controls, I think that's all right.

They're not going to last too long.

Well, he thinks it's unfair business to have them on that long.

And, of course, he has his reservations about how in the world are you going to control gasoline at the pump.

And I say, well, I don't know.

I think we're going to have to figure out.

I don't know the answer to that question.

I don't know.

Stay with me.

He's been good for me to work with in the international economic business, we've argued, but he has always gone along after we've had a decision.

Yeah, I know it does good.

There's no special thing to get him in about right now.

He's very pleased with his new appointment, and it has, I must say, it's gone very well, everybody.

It's been a good appointment.

He's got a very good life.

Arthur can't have it all in one life.

He can't win every time either.

He's lost all the gold he's ever wanted to have.

He's lost all the gas and all the labor.

There's nothing to do with it, whatever.

Nothing.

The bag, that's the formula.

They've had a formula since 1948.

They're gonna have it again.

They have 3% increment plus the cost of living.

So if they line up the guidelines and they also put some fringes on it, it's basically a very fun problem.

The post office is going to be a problem.

That's coming up and that's always a difficult one.

Let me ask you two, between now and tonight, if you could do your best to shake these things up.

You know what I mean?

To get as much confidence as you could while we're doing it.

I would appreciate it.

This is a time that we'll be very glad to have a meeting with the whole administration.

I don't want to disagree.

I know it is.

We know that.

But, uh, that's one of the costs of having to act as an adult.

I don't act like that.

I don't think that's going to bother me.

Okay, great.

I'll talk to Al, and I'll have you talk to you.

In the meantime, get on with your license.

Oh, no, it's a nice day.

I've got half the money to go out this afternoon.

Why don't you go call up my friend George Meade and see if he's free.

That's great.

It's a nice day.

It's the first nice day we've had in a long while.

No, it's not.

I just did diplomatic credentials for him.

and all of these... Well, good luck to Mr. Brennan.

It's a great... Well, you're coming.

It's a great thing.

You're coming for the Monday dinner.

Yes, of course.

And we're all going down to you.

So come back.

It's a great bus.

Thank you.