On June 19, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon, Alexander M. Haig, Jr., J. Fred Buzhardt, Jr., Melvin R. Laird, and unknown person(s) met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 3:09 pm and 4:30 pm. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 945-007 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
We can't get into Hagerstown as of now.
We can't?
We can't.
And that would be an overall from Mount Vernon of an hour and 35 minutes.
It's 35 minutes by road from Hagerstown and roughly an hour and a jumper from Howard.
All right.
Hey, 50 minutes.
You better not bother me.
What do you think?
Well, the flight from here is about 35 miles an hour.
So it's another 10 miles an hour.
That is a long time to conquer, sir.
No, it's really 50 miles an hour.
That's a very long, very, very critical time.
All right, you'd better do is you take that one that sort of swings around and comes back.
Comes back to here.
You know that one?
Yes, sir.
Uh, I'm not sure how this is going to be here, but maybe it's going to be done.
I don't even think that's what I was going to do.
Alright, I don't see anything.
See, it just turned out wrong.
I don't know where it turned out.
I don't know if it's going to turn out right.
I don't know if it's going to turn out right.
I don't know if it's going to turn out right.
I don't know where it turned out right.
This is pretty where the schools are now.
And that has a lot of light on the counter.
I think that was just too much of a problem.
Then we can bring it right back in here.
Yeah, now we can break it.
Well, I'm bringing my dad to it.
My dad is trying to get something out of the hole.
He picked up right at the top there.
Uh-huh.
The company got it out.
I'm going to drive back here.
I don't say it's a little time, sir.
I'm going to chop it over to Adrian's house and drive him out.
Well, and then you report it to me before we get on with our other...
I hear that some, uh, sailor says the processing shooters will give them a seal, then we'll open it up.
That's the evidence they have on Dean.
That's the evidence they have on Dean.
Why do they do that?
Do they really want to go after him or what?
They want to go after Dean.
You know, Silver, they... cops can't fight Silver.
And Silver thinks Dean is the central figure in the whole business, and was pretty conjectured.
Um, so...
He can't very well be in the position of not putting somebody guilty in jail if the prosecutors say this is one of the guiltiest guys.
Now, the Committee to Relay is getting off the hook of the assassination and demanding the return of the $14,000.
And I'm not counting that.
Is it $14,000?
Yes.
Yes, it's $14,000.
He says it.
It's very unusual testimony.
Unusual testimony.
I got it from the committee.
What?
He said he used 48 hunters for his hunting.
He put an owl in the sight.
He's waiting in hunting.
He put an owl in the sight.
Then he said that after he hired a lawyer, a shaper,
In late March or early April of 73, he put an identical amount of money in a trust fund.
That's exactly the way he phrased it, put an identical amount of money.
I suspect the reason he had to do this is because we could trace his finances and see that he borrowed it.
I did.
Well, you know, borrowing from somebody else's money is a .
That's enough.
So I talked to Mari.
Mari's getting off the letter this afternoon.
We discussed the letter.
Hirsch has callers again.
He's kind of informed us now of what he funds.
And he asked us if we know that Dean was quite a big spender,
Kirsch says that he will know before the iPhone out how much he paid for the diamond ring and how much he paid the caterers at the wedding.
Did we know that he bought a brand new car at the time he got married?
Did we know all this from our investigation?
No, we didn't investigate all this, you know, and comment on it.
So, um...
The other prosecutor went to election.
Well, I think the main thing is to get the newspapers to go and we get them to print it.
You know, it suits me better than for... Well, if the newspapers will print enough to give the public a clear impression that this was quite a man about town who was a big spender, really threw his money around, bought very expensive diamond rings, automobiles, motorcycles, boats, yes.
Uh, you know, we just bought things right and left.
We get all of this in the paper.
The public is ready to understand then why you filched the money.
And it's, it's, it's coming due.
The filching of the money we make in New Jersey, you don't hear it.
What do you think, Al?
Did he get away when we started?
He took $1,440.
I never put it back after he's a lawyer.
You see, Mr. President, the thing that convicts him is this.
The fact he used the money, he didn't use any of it.
That'd be different.
Well, but he used it to expand it.
Well, let me try to see.
Let us suppose, let us suppose, let us suppose that the best of us, suppose he got the $14,000.
Is that what it is he got from somebody?
Yes, he got that from Mom.
Yeah.
The coward.
The coward, okay.
He got the $14,000 and just put it in and kept it that way, you know, but without breaking into it, that's why.
But if he got it and spent some of it,
There's another critical element in this that we have here that convicts him worse than any of that.
Strong knew he had the $14,000 that was what was left over from the 22, and that he got it back sometime around the 1st of July, 72.
In late November, for some reason, Strong wanted the money.
He went to Dean and asked him for it.
And Dean said, well, it was originally $22,000.
We'll get Stan to make it whole.
But then he called Stan, and instead of asking for the difference,
to make up the whole quantity and ask him for the entire $22,000.
You've got to ask him before he takes it.
Yes, sir.
And Dean then gave Strong, had Fred Fielding give Strong the $22,000.
Now, nobody knows.
Strong, at this point, says he never got the $22,000.
But Fielding says he absolutely gave it to Strong.
Nobody knows what happened to that money.
And Strong and Bob
Haldeman and John Ehrlichman possibly did not know that the .22 was ever had back from Sands because they were both climbing the wall when Sands said he gave Dean the .22 to make it home.
You know, they got on the phone.
Now, Dean says that he gave it to Strong.
I believe that Fielding gave it to Strong.
Oh, did he give it to Strong?
Dean didn't touch the money.
He sent Fielding over to get a package.
No, sir.
I suspect they used it for some other purpose.
I suspect they used it to bribe somebody that hadn't come out yet.
I don't know who.
It was something on a very private... Well, Strong may have just been a layman carrying the money to McGruder, carrying the money to Mitchell.
We don't know who he carried it to.
He took the money to and carried it over to LaRue or something.
Right.
He may have.
And we've been unable to reach LaRue.
I tried to call Thread on him.
I haven't been able to read it.
See what he knows.
Well, coming back to what you established on Dean.
But the point is that he should have had the 14 to bring it back to the 22.
Oh, I didn't see it.
He just didn't have it.
He couldn't have had it.
Or else he wanted to keep it.
Because by asking for the 22, he was deceiving strong.
So he really was acting mad and said the 14 was his money.
Yes.
At that point, when he asked for the whole 22, that was it.
But did he give it to Mr. Hirsch?
Did Hirsch understand that?
Yes.
Did Hirsch understand that?
Yes.
Yes.
Hirsch understands that very good.
And we didn't tell him.
Oh, he got it.
He got it.
We put it together that he got it from somebody else.
Good.
And he called us to try to verify it.
And we said, well, you know, we can't verify this stuff.
Yeah.
So, but he got it elsewhere.
Well, there's no question in my opinion, you know, that Dean was, that Dean probably built the whole 14.
He was short of captains, President.
He had to be.
Now...
He bought houses.
I've got the abstract of title on some of the houses he bought in my office already.
Right.
Now, coming back to the 14, what do you think happened?
He, his lawyer, did the 14 or something?
I think his, I think that his, he told his lawyer the whole story.
His lawyer said, well, we better cover you on this.
The first thing to do is to put it in a trust fund somewhere.
Don't reveal it at this point, or nevertheless protect yourself.
He probably went out and either sold something or borrowed the money and put it in a trust fund.
14?
Yes, the 14th.
And then he sat quietly.
Is there a trust account?
We know that.
We don't know that.
He says that then he sat quietly until he got a grant of immunity where he could say it under immunity.
So he couldn't be prosecuted for it.
That's why he stole the story?
Yes.
It looked good.
It looked good in the drug field.
But I suspect it should be limited to things like the drug field.
where you really have organized crime of some sort.
That's right, where you've got little guys that are going to get big fines, because God dispels them.
It was in the whole picture, and they should be, too.
Right.
So the 14, he's admitted to that.
All right.
Do you think there's a follow-up on that?
Oh, he's calling back this afternoon.
He's talked to us and he's done it.
He's just working like mad.
That's all right.
He's working furiously on it.
As he keeps us posted, you know, he finds out additional things.
He's chasing around now trying to, got his people trying to run that way about the diamond ring and how much it pays for his car and whatnot.
We've got a weak story here.
This is good.
And it's nice for him to have a little trouble getting this.
We want him to come out and have another story every day.
We don't want to lay, we want him to lay out the whole story for him in one grasp.
It's better than it is.
It takes up the week.
That's right.
And let them report us.
Dig it out.
Make sure they get some clues along the way from somebody.
And dig it out for themselves.
It's much better than us handing it to them on a silver platter, one splash and forgotten.
I'm convinced that by next Monday, everybody in the country will have read several times about what a thief this fellow is.
You think so?
Yes, sir.
They can't sit on one like this.
At the Pentagon, we used to have big messes over contracts.
We had hundreds of million dollars.
We just lost.
And nobody in the public ever got upset about it.
It was too complicated.
They couldn't understand it.
But you let one sergeant go steal $3,000 from the post he sent to the commissary, and they painted it that everybody in the Army was right.
Because it's something people can understand.
They can understand somebody stealing a few dollars.
That's public psychology.
Good luck.
Thank you.
First of all, will we ever get back to you in a couple days?
Well, we'll stay right on top of it.
And the letter has gone to people demanding an immediate response, return of the money.
If by about Friday we don't have an answer on it, we'll file a suit.
We'll file a suit.
or the money.
Go ahead.
And that would mean some more publicity.
That's good.
What do you suggest in the letter to see what we are talking about?
Well, I think we're all talking about media.
What types would you want me to give you some of those?
How very long is it until we're all doing it?
Well, I think you ought to...
You know, we've been working closely with Timmons on the legislative business on the bills that are coming out of Congress that should or should not be vetoed.
We certainly ought to work that.
We certainly ought to get him tied in to be sure that the next economic package he's locked into, so that we have political input from the beginning on the economic side.
And also, he should be very active in selling what we just put forward.
We're talking too much the wrong way.
He might be able to use up on the health of the policy group.
And Timmons came in on the set because he described Timmons as he's going to be held on.
He's just a fast stepper.
And we're going to have to watch that.
And he cuts me apart, probably, too, which I don't like.
So I don't take care of that.
He's right.
He works on me, too, probably.
My God, I... Well, if he's going to handle the paperwork in the White House, he's going to be able to share it.
Well, you know, he took credit for getting me to resign, and yet that was a periscope of the U.S. of World War II.
Oh, God.
The reason I resigned was because he had laid a condition on you.
And in order for me to come back, he would have to get out of the army.
And I called him and I knew where it came from.
So, that's, I'm usually coping with him, you know, and I'll take care of him.
It's not a big deal.
Good man.
That's a good thing.
But, you know, that's one of the prices we pay with Mel.
That's right.
Still worth it.
Yeah, it's worth it.
I hope so.
Yesterday, I remember we coped with him.
He just needs a little, a little box in the other cage.
I think that's the biggest thing right now.
And I think he's got to get, we need more support from the governors, we need more support from the mayors on a whole range of things.
From revolutionary, which is certainly the economic area we need it.
How about working with Cole?
We'll have to tell him to be sure to work with Cole.
Yes, I think it's good for him to know that you have regard for Cole because he's now wants to bring Broody in as his deputy.
Broody.
Which I would prove a question of Tom's if I knew that in the past.
See, Broody's always been his right hand man.
I mean, young Broody.
He's not that smart.
He's not Cole's dude, in my opinion.
Not in any way.
But it's all right if he wants him as an assistant.
But if he does, then Perutti should be replaced.
Because I don't think my lawyer should control the way I ask for communication.
Absolutely.
If he wants Perutti to be named, that's one thing.
But now you're right.
Don't worry, I don't want him to go to 11.
That's pretty much what I've ever seen.
I figured he'd be out.
Alright, at least he's going to be active and I think he, uh...
He'll make a run, he always does.
If he makes a run and I think he gets blocked, he'll... try something else and that's alright.
He's happy.
Richie?
Why didn't you send a message to him at least?
I would, I would tell him how you plan to use, uh... Cromwell.
to keep calm as an advisor and support the political community.
I understand that you will be very experienced in meetings and energy, but I'm more involved in prior reports.
That's why it's appropriate that I reiterate that as soon as the price gets here, we will
We got it.
That's what he said.
He was right.
That's the best way to keep him out of the box.
He's a fast step bird.
Ha, ha, ha.
Well, that means you've got a nice bird in the living room.
You can get some hot tickets and some fancy light tickets.
That's the way.
Yeah, I think that's it.
I think we kind of follow him.
He's got to take the fly boat.
He's already got his assets.
Where is he?
Oh, he's in.
His words are strong.
Sure, he's in.
But she's sure he's not.
What's a decent guy?
He's in his heart.
He's in the right place.
He's in the heart in the right place and he wants it to come out.
That's why he's got a statement.
He's got a statement.
Uh, good.
One point, you will probably have two hours in terms of it.
Both Mel and Carl, they will not let them.
I want you to keep in control of the schedules.
You know what I mean?
They're taking me on Congress and that sort of thing.
I don't want them to get, they want to make all sorts of promises.
They want me to go up there and kiss the ass of those Congressmen.
I'm not going to do it.
It's wrong.
I'll bring it down here in the cage.
He was in a meeting up there this afternoon, and he said, I'm going to go call the president.
He said, you just got something.
So he went to Hugh Scott's back room and called him.
And I don't know who he called.
It was probably me, because I did talk to him.
He came back to me and he told me the president was going to come back and see the president this afternoon.
Well, which is all right.
I don't know.
And the Vice President, we have to watch.
He's very nervous about this Maryland thing.
Maryland thing?
Yeah.
Well, but I...
The only one thing we can do is...
I'd like to help him.
I don't want any nerve.
We need that like a hold head.
I'd like to get Mel to get Bell, Congressman Bell, to talk to his brother and say, you are sitting on these prosecutors you have intimidating everybody, just to be sure that they're doing it straight and...
In fact, my wife doesn't talk to me about it again.
She did say better after.
She said better after he had gone.
That's what we felt for the rest of the day.
Well, I think you should better talk to me about it.
I'll talk to you about it.
I don't think I'd better.
No, no, no.
You don't mention it.
No, no, no.
I can't put it out that I was trying to fix the case.
No, no, no.
You cannot do that.
But I want you to be aware of it.
Well, I'm sorry, but I didn't want to talk to you about it.
What is it?
It's a straight line.
Well, Mandel is all upset about it.
They're after him.
All donors.
Anybody that sells executive offices in this state.
The trouble is, these are our people.
Yes.
The problem that I've seen here, too, is that I don't think the guilty one is.
Just the fact that... No, but he knows that the charge in this climate is not...
The charge in this climate is very horrible.
So Bell and, you know, his brother, who's a U.S. attorney, who we appointed, who's a Republican, but who's turned this thing over to fanatical prosecutors, that if he just sits in on it and supervises it, it's going to be done.
Fair enough.
But it's not going to be gone.
Do you think Bell or Harlow would have done it?
Well, Harlow's in St. Croix, unfortunately.
Oh.
Harlow would have been far better.
Well...
I just don't have a melody with this suggestion.
He's likely to leave the thing out.
I think it's better to go.
This is the street.
You can kind of talk to him and say, look, it's going to be darn embarrassing to buy a friend and all this and that.
All we're asking for is to be sure that he gets himself into this and be sure that it's being done.
Not as a witch hunt, but as an
That's what we're going to make.
This is the Coup De Grace.
Pretty interesting.
It's a different kind of smell, but it just finishes being as a bread.
Now, as everyone knows, instead of his conscience having been the thing that caused him to step up and blow the whistle, so to speak, as it comes to that, it had to do with that.
It had to do with his criminal involvement, having the information he had.
Of course he's been playing for immunity.
Of course he's been telling one person to get immunity.
Not to get immunity from involvement in cover-up, but from larceny and worse.
I don't think he'll take it out on me.
So basically what it would help me, not to take a guy that's not always involved in it, but not because, by the way, he can't charge all of them early.
But about this fact being, this is Pina's comparator, embezzlement of money for that sector, which is what that agency took to East Bank.
And as he pointed out then, the actions he took should have shown intent to steal it all.
But that was not a way to delay it.
This story starts on Ramble all week, one hell of a news to be running.
In our favor on both tracks.
You know the crook.
He's entirely different guy.
He needs to straighten up.
He's a great guy.
I agree with you.
He's supposed to be a great guy.
His conscience wouldn't allow him anymore.
There's no moral to this thing.
He can't have that.
He can't have a conscience.
And he can't have any motivation but to cover his own pay.
I borrowed 48 and a dollar from the bond.
I kept the rest in a safe center, a trust.
Energy didn't do anything for a trust until after he was gone and was gone.
After he'd been out and got a lawyer, he'd already started his strategy for covering up.
Basically, until I got early, but he could change it, he could handle it earlier than that.
The more I think about it, that's what really scared him.
Although, I guess looking down the pipe that day on the 21st, he described as saying he was scared.
And about his own involvement.
But he still went to Camp David with an ostensible purpose of writing the report.
It's been five or six days.
Or to see, sir, a picture of a guy...
Well, I did that.
I was with the Senate.
All the Republican senators.
Oh, their policies were not good.
I spent some time with Elliot.
I don't know his problems.
Ken Cole and I went over.
I don't know whether it's baptism.
I'm still breathing.
But they just sort of... Why don't you come down to the house?
You don't really have to come down.
You will spend some time.
Well, I went over and sat on the floor for about a half an hour with them.
Did you?
Which is all right.
I think that...
And I sat with Carl Albert and Jerry on the floor, so it looked good.
They were very concerned, of course, about the smoke that's coming up.
Yeah, I recall that.
Well, it should never have been called that.
I should have gotten into that.
But we are there, and we've got to try to .
I think there's a chance.
Jerry says there isn't a chance, but Jerry starts off that way, and I think it may work out that they can win that vote.
Carl Albert feels that the best vote is to try to maintain the House position on this, and he will support it.
So I think there is a chance.
Jerry feels there isn't, but...
We've got to give it a go.
What's the vote now?
Well, it would probably be 2C.
Would it be useful to use that which Gary one time suggested before the last vote he could have had a case for comparison?
Would it be useful to use Kessinger for a conference on this thing?
Yes, well, they can have a conference on it.
I'm not suggesting it wasn't useful.
No, I think they should decide whether they need that or not.
I think
Jerry's kind of down right now.
I'll talk to him after I talk to you.
I said, Jerry, Jesus, don't get involved in something like that.
I was explaining to him what the situation was.
Jerry feels that if they could go for a September 1 date, that he could win it.
The problem involved there is that you would have to oppose a September 1 date.
you would have to say if you signed it, I am opposed to this state and I will have no reluctance to come back to the Congress for extension if it's needed.
But the problem that you have there is that that's something that is absolutely a final fallback position and it can be used on some other piece of legislation.
We should try to maintain the House vote on this.
Now, Jerry has the idea from
that went on up there that we probably will have things worked out by that date.
But you just can't have that in the public.
I don't know what's going to work out, do we?
What do you think, Al?
You got any thoughts?
Ron, this would be a problem if we're only losing the money.
Yes, that's the first problem, losing the money.
Because at least it gives us a chance to save up the whole bag.
But you shouldn't compromise it first.
Well, you only see, they only have one motion under the House rules.
You only have one motion.
You have to make the motion to recede and concur in the Senate Amendment with the amendment, with an amendment to the Senate Amendment, because there's only one motion in order on a conference report.
And so you only have one chance at this.
And that's, so you have another chance, though, Al, if you tie it on a continuing resolution.
See, if you bail on this, then you get it.
You could move on a continuing resolution, but that doesn't work out.
There's no sense about any of that, Mr. President.
Um, listen, it's a very important matter, and I don't know why we're disappointing you all here, but, uh, you should never come... Jerry's down on his vote right now, you see, and he's looking for anything to, uh, kind of win it, but win it with something else.
And so you've got, uh,
Well, I think Henry has been working with him on it, and that's where it should stay, and I'll work with them on it.
But my problem is that when I visited with Jerry, Jerry was convinced that he has to have something.
Now, I think we ought to keep it until Monday, at least, to stay and see how many votes we have for the House position.
Because that's better for us than even the compromise right now.
So I think we should continue to work for the House position right now.
I would agree.
I would agree.
It's all out for the balls out for the House position.
We're trying to get some of those Republicans back.
The Democrats didn't abandon on that push, folks.
Those Republicans just lost their skin, didn't they?
Even if they had to compromise the presence, I believe they would have to oppose the compromise when he signed the bill.
He'd have to say, I have no hesitancy.
I've always gotten authority when I've gone to the Congress.
I've had no hesitancy to go back if we need further authority on the bonding.
Well, I can do that.
I don't, I don't, because that's no problem to me.
But let's not do that right now.
You see, even, because the problem is Jerry wants to do it right this minute.
And I don't think it's good to get that word out this week.
See, that's the problem up there right now, Al.
Sure.
Jerry's afraid he doesn't want to get hit again.
Yeah.
He feels like he really got rolled on that.
He doesn't want to get rolled again.
You know, he's tired of fighting those things.
He doesn't like to lose votes.
I know.
What is the difference then?
Well, I think Timon's side is with Carl Albert.
And Carl Albert says that a motion to proceed with the Senate with an amendment is too complicated.
And he thinks you'll get more votes for the House position, just a straight-out vote on the House position, than you will with the Senate amendment, concurring with the Senate amendment with an amendment.
You see, under this procedure, that's the... And so Carl feels the other way around.
And he'll support the House position.
And he thinks the other is too complicated.
So I think we've just got to stay there for a little while.
Well, if you haven't got the St. Henry's, it will be out of the pocket.
We're going to go to the weekend.
We're going to go to the camp.
I think it was me who was saying this all along.
He could come back if it's needed, it wouldn't make a difference.
I think we've got a lot of work to do on the individual guys, the House side, Republicans, especially who crumbled away from this office.
And there you can give them an assurance privately that this is a conversation that we're going to get done here by the fall.
We can't say that publicly in any way because then in a way it's an incentive to hang in there.
Sure.
What we need is the authority in order to buy, in order to make the deal.
That's what we really, we're trying to make a deal on this very desperately, you know, with the off-campo here.
But it's just darn complicated.
We might get one, you know, very little money.
But, say, September, you're going to get out anyway.
It blows the chance for you.
Well, you could take a crack at the September amendment on the next continuing resolution, which would, in effect, take precedence over the cutoff if you put that in that continuing resolution.
I think you could take another crack at it.
Jerry doesn't think he can, but I think he could.
And I think Jerry will come around to that.
They got a little cross-signal there on Friday, and I think that's been stretched out all right.
They did?
How's your office?
I mean, you got your facilities?
I mean, I see that you've got the secretary and all that sort of thing.
Oh, yeah.
Well, I don't need an awful lot of stuff, Mr. President.
We've got the domestic council staff, and I'm
I was told that he worked... Oh, yeah, well, I've got...
I haven't, but I told you that he's on his conference, because he's a pro, and he works quietly.
He's got very good contacts with the governors, and some of the mayors.
Oh, he's very good.
And I hope that you can, as much as possible, rely on him for... And I don't go to any of these meetings without taking him, you know, when I meet with the cabinet officers.
I think that's going to be an awesome use of him.
I've got an awful lot of mail and things like that.
It looks like I've got a lot of junk up there right now, but we'll work through that.
We've got several thousand wires and several thousand telegrams.
I don't know, letters.
But those aren't important.
I think that's working out all right.
It'll be good when Bryce comes in, too.
Well, he won't be here till when?
After the war ends?
Really?
Yes, effectively.
He'll be on board as of the 1st, which is something that could be here on the 2nd.
But really, before... Well, how are we going to work this situation out?
I think what we...
What we wanted to do was to have this sort of inquiry into this stuff.
Al, Bryce, and you.
And, uh, yourself.
And, uh, I didn't have that idea, but I would like to get Bryce, you know, get him.
He's got to find his niche, you know, for a while.
I mean, he's the one I'm sort of stuck with for a while, but, uh, uh, for me, kind of, uh,
I guess we just have to handle the curves that come up.
Let me say one of the main things that I would like you to do at this point is view the tenants, work with them, check the tenants, which you've done, you've done it all now.
But I would particularly like for you, Mel, to talk, view tenants, edit.
You know what I mean?
Ashley was very strong.
I know that we signed that Texas bill for Mayhem the other day, which I think was right.
But Ashley was very strong.
We're going to talk about that.
even elude to just sign legislation that totally destroys the credibility of our white equity.
I would tend to agree with that.
But on the other hand, that's going to be a contemplative judgment that is made.
There'll be a lot of opportunities for that.
I think you ought to get, I think you're going to put all this into conversation.
You see,
The leaders don't like an actor to ever lose anything, and they also don't like to have a fight with an employee, so they want to compromise.
Well, we can compromise, but other than that, we can't.
We have to give them an opportunity, though, I think, to be heard on the thing and also to prepare a credible position that they can talk about, that they tried but lost, and then they're with us on the way.
and it's kind of like a constructive alternative that they have that they can use as their fallback in order to keep their troops together.
We can win those vetoes if they can have a reasonable position that they have advocated and lost.
Now, on the minimum wage, they've done that.
They prepared themselves well, and they can
stand up and vote to sustain a veto if that House still passes the Senate the way it is.
On the HEW appropriation bill, they're preparing a way on that so that they can stand up and they've gone forward with, they are this week, developing their alternative proposal, which is a reasonable proposal.
They will be overwritten.
But you'll have 178 of them there that at least stood together for a proposal, and they can talk about it with their constituents.
When the vote comes up on veto, we'll be able to hold them.
And we can't shy away from talking about it with them before their vote, so that they are prepared later on for the stand-up.
Well, you see what I want to be sure we're covered on those things.
And you're getting deep into that right now.
Yes.
And I've been working with, we talked to Roy.
Roy doesn't want to indicate anything to these people up there.
And we've got to get him to yield a little bit on that.
We've got to get him so that he understands their political problems.
so that we can win our political... Well, I agree with them.
I agree.
They've got to have some kind of opposition that they have to support.
And they will support a veto.
They can support a compromise, basically, then lose.
Say, well, I didn't vote for this, and then they'll vote against the bill, and so this is a veto correction.
And all that we'll hear about is this one, the sustaining the veto.
The compromise will be lost in the shuffle, but they'll be able to talk to the constituents about it anyway.
The other area that I'm sure we can, I would say, is the start of the veto trail.
I don't want I don't want to have a division down here
Well, Cass is very much more liberal in this area than Roy is now.
Is he?
He's my guy.
He goes, he goes even further than I would want somebody to be constructed.
Right now he does, I think, but he'll, you know, it's... Well, he's under darkness right now, as you understand.
The other thing, I think, the second area that I think you ought to, as I said before, that you ought to immerse yourself in, if you will, is the general area of the, of what our phase four is, you know what I mean?
And I would like to do a talk
And we, however, as soon as they get
they get their base more ready.
I don't think for everything.
My view is that their base three was good for seven.
They just lifted everything too fast.
They put it out and moved it in the way.
We haven't had no problems.
Alan, you talked a little about this.
What can Mel do here?
First, you ought to spend some time on it.
George is basically torn between two strategies.
He favors one very strongly.
He's known to be in the process of termination for 30 minutes.
30 minutes is possible.
Maybe 30 to 30 minutes.
30, 40, 40 minutes.
See, having to find a better way before, but then we're ready.
And then here's termination.
Now, my view on that is that would be a mistake.
uh, his point is, his argument is that if you wait 60 days, that you have to have a much tougher phase forward than if you had, you know, if you do it 40 days.
So the argument we all listen to, the counter-argument is that with the bad weather, and I have it throughout the summer, uh, that, uh, that, that if you move, if it bears, if you lift,
Right at the time that the inflation is still held in a very good state, we've got a very, very bad political problem.
Let's face it, the whole C.C.D.
creed was bad.
And I don't think you need to go on that one.
And you know it from reading those papers.
The only people who are afraid of creeds are people like you and Conley.
And I ain't sure that was political.
Everybody else was against it.
But we couldn't survive without it.
We had a 90 day creep down here in the steps for everything to do with the victims.
So I feel that I don't want to tilt you in any direction if you would want to.
I'd like for you to talk to them and then give them your judgment.
You've been talking to them, Al.
We've been immersed in this thing, I believe, for such a long time.
I think the freedom can selectively list these issues and I don't want certain items that don't meet that kind of rigid control.
And it'll provide you with a range of negotiations.
Even then, I don't see any problems.
They did an excellent job.
Now, I've got an apology for Tom, who said that Sir Lash and I were not even holding a point in line at all.
But he would never have held a point unless we had these stories.
They think this helps them, as far as their situation.
Yeah, it helps our partners.
What's your feeling about the price of profit?
Your reason would be to keep your options today.
Well, really, we've already gone 10 days.
We're only talking about, we've gone about 10.
Sure.
We've only got three days.
And we don't have very much more time.
I think it'll take that long to get ready.
Maybe if you can cut off a few days at the end, it might be all right.
I wouldn't mind it.
I don't think we're talking about that much.
I don't think we're anything.
I have no objection to a selective release of things that don't matter to many people.
Even if it means that there would be benefits for the economy.
However, I don't see how you can have a selective release of food or
Now in the food area, I wish you would check to see what progress can be made in getting an amendment to the Economic Stabilization Act, which will allow us to do something with regard to these sales growth.
We need that support.
That is the most effective thing that we can do now in terms of trying to control the supply side.
You have one fellow here who has
Different ideas.
All he does in this field, I'm sorry to interrupt, is he wants to raise taxes.
Well, not always.
Let me understand it clearly.
Listen to your mouth.
He made it, evidently.
But basically, you and I, there is no way we can get a responsible tax on one of these companies.
No.
For us to talk about using the tax device for the purpose of controlling this situation in relation to what you were reading, we have to clarify.
You're the only one who's done it.
The tax, there's a bill in there, but I'm not hearing the other side.
Well, there were some taxes, but some automatic things that weren't being done.
But there's nothing like that.
And the panel I decided to get in touch with just to embarrass you and your kids.
What do you think would be the best way to do it?
You've suffered through a lot of this, so what's the best way to get acquainted with this?
Well, you've read the papers, but...
Yes, sir.
I think Stein and George are very much on the same wavelength.
They're a little bit more flexible.
And Bill Stein is just damn good.
I'm sure you've talked to him.
Bill Stein is very sensitive to political science.
He's much more flexible, I guess.
I mean, he's more physical conscious than the others are.
But he's potentially very strong now.
The watching character is going on.
The watching character is going on.
So he has an advantage.
He's very good.
He gets along well with some of the people he needs to get his help from.
Does he?
In fact, does he?
You take people like, you know, you can't count on Wilbur Milton on anything, but at least one of the things in my little visit with Wilbur today that he pointed out was his admiration and respect for Simon, which I think is, he went out of his way.
He's quite a person.
Burns, too.
But the Burns views.
I would like to talk to him.
He wants to talk to me, but I'm filled up this week.
I don't say it's a critical view of Arthur, but Arthur is the man of it, and his views are interesting, and sometimes right, but often, they're totally unrealistic.
Although Arthur is a happy politician.
Well, yes, but Arthur is not very practical about what you can get right now.
That's what you can get.
He talks, for example, about a flexible investment tax rate of 3 to 15%.
Now, there's no way you're going to get it there, in my opinion.
Well, with the things that have been loaded on that right now, it just isn't a practical solution to the problem.
Forest safety plans and all those things.
I see.
No way.
I just don't think you're going to get that right now.
No way.
The Germans have done pretty well with that.
Forest safety?
Yes.
And they have it matched by the employer now, and it's a way of getting some pay increases with the, and this is something that are hard to keep talking about, but.
We need something to get some confidence generated in the probably esoteric end of the business.
There's something that's needed there, and I think we can make a good
Or just plain contact and holding their hands.
You talk about further action.
You go to this whole economic thing, and it's, I mean, the stock market and all the other things.
You've just got to take a few belts on the thing, because they don't know what's going to come up until they see phase four.
When they get to phase four, they haven't liked that either.
That would be very, very helpful.
But I think before you want to sell, you want to be convinced that we're moving in the right direction.
Good.
Good.
Because I think it's a good idea if I knew he's a Jew because then we should talk to people and things.
Let me tell you what I have in mind there.
It's very important that, and he's, I think, he's coming out to California for, because, you know, he's very interested in gas, which is good.
and I'll see him out there.
But it's very important, and he has been very good about this, that he be involved as much as he can be.
Now, the problem that he has is that he doesn't want to be in between, you know, just be around here with other people.
We have, I've worked it out, he's worked it out.
where there are specific areas where I haven't asked that he participate on it.
One is energy.
Another is his economic name.
He said he was here when we made that decision and had the enormous impact on it.
For two reasons.
The only one out there pushing for that, except for a lot of pensioners, apparently.
But the company sold it.
While we didn't sell it, I didn't.
He just kept it all, but he kept their feet to the fire because he got it.
Uh, energy, economic area, he's a good lord, a very good lord.
Now, the fourth thing is that he will attend cabinet meetings whenever he's here, to be very humble.
Now, John is a, an armistice people's citizen, an armistice people.
He is a, uh, uh, he's a, he,
also has an excellent political reactionist, political judgment on this stuff.
He's extremely sensitive about the stock market.
He'll be concerned about that, how we generate confidence.
But to be perfectly frank, I do not know, I don't know what he could do now.
I don't think he could change our program that he just announced a few days ago.
Oh, no, no, no.
I think we can do a lot more.
The problem is, Schultz, Stein, and Dunlop didn't believe in it.
Actually, it's very hard to do something you can't believe in.
He's an able man.
What I see is that he didn't believe in it.
I would say that Schultz and Stein were honest guys and went right along with the soldiers.
And, uh...
Schultz made a speech yesterday.
Well, I think it's good if that kind of makes his speech.
I think it would be enormously helpful, particularly in the economic area, the whole area of conflicts and so forth.
And we've got a big asset there, a big asset.
You just talked to him today.
How do you find your balance in tonight?
This is very important.
No, I think he's very enthusiastic.
I don't know that he's been really tasked on getting out and talking as much as we'd like to have him.
We can get some of that out of him next week.
Or even this week, it would be damn helpful.
We actually haven't had as much nitpicking as I thought we'd get on this economic initiative.
Is there a requirement?
No, no, no, I think it... Scott Martin goes down for other reasons.
It's always, you know, action in a reverse cycle and then come back to win.
No, I think any action that was taken was not going to be a big popular action, but you had to do something.
You had to do something.
I think that's probably... Well, we at least stopped the, uh, stopped the, uh, you see, the congressional group.
We got that pretty well.
Oh, yeah.
We just sealed off, right?
That was the important thing about the 60 days.
And, uh, it's funny that you came, you, Connolly and I, all came to the 60-day inclusion of three politicians.
So we're probably wrong economically and right politically.
Well, I think that might be true, but...
But not that much wrong economically.
It doesn't make that much difference.
Did you feel it, Al?
Yes, sir.
I'm very, very strong.
And that's really what happened.
Actually, he got out in the field where he could make some good.
He got out on the west coast and came back and said, by the way, we've got to do this.
Right?
through the 60 days and buying the time, they could have strengthened the system.
And also, they could have programmed them to deal with food, which is the nature of it.
And copy has the gas in the pump thing, which is a terribly difficult one.
But they're going to stand in there.
Now, I think that as far as food and gas in particular, I just don't see the 60-day thing coming off.
I mean, it should have come off for them, unless they have something that's
Oh, what do you think?
I think I'd rather see them work as hard as they can to get their reform run than work as hard as they can to get something happening.
There you're talking.
Red and peace, you know, that's what that's for.
There you're talking.
And I'd rather not.
It's another thing.
I could buy it.
We could buy all these purses for each other.
Right.
That would be fine.
In other words, you might want to beat the deadline by some, but not 30 days.
That much is like the whole thing was just a rumor.
See, that's what I'm talking about.
Do you agree with that?
Oh, thanks.
But I think that's a... See, look at that.
It's George Schultz's idea now.
He's done a lot of this.
And that's what I'm feeling.
There.
And Stein, in particular, he does feel he can beat it that much.
Because he won't have to write me up.
Good.
Well, thank you, then.
If you would, in your talks, tilt it.
Tilt it to the section in the right program.
There you go, sir.
I pass the word to George.
You're such a decent guy.
That was a damn thing to work to.
And, well, you know, we, what we're going to do, I think, and it would make us embrace the last
I'm going to just say the last half of the year, because they're going to get their head down.
But I do think we're going to get some rain.
Some doesn't get the pressure on the truck.
How do you do?
Well, I hope not.
I think the farm thing is not looking very good right now, because the farm price thing, with all the rain and everything else they have, it's putting pressure on the prices right now.
What the devil can you do about that?
You can't do much about that, Mr. Cranwell.
Sir, I've always known you.
You have some weather modification programs.
That's right.
And I've always known you.
Not in that direction.
There's many reasons to be fired.
Well, reasons aren't worth a damn.
Why didn't we come to control raw agricultural products?
uh, unprocessed, uh, farm products.
There's no way, no way, no way.
So, uh, I think that we've worked out that, that program.
You know, it works.
Yeah.
Well, just so you know, you're, you're capable of anything if you could.
Speaking to that white fellow would be very helpful.
It would be very helpful if John could talk to me.
Sure.
You say his speaking is just very good for us.
He ought to be out there if he needs to.
Well, we're not in bad shape.
as many other countries are.
And then, beyond that, as far as present F.E.E.
concerns, we've been working on love.
Have you ever heard of any water tanker's wife?
No, sir.
He's still airborne now.
He should be now.
I should get him to call me.
In fact, he was going to talk to his wife about the situation.
As did, for him to be the energy man.
He would be good.
Yeah.
All right.
And we ought to call him a czar, though.
We ought to call him a czar.
Energy director or something.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
All right.
Yes, sir.
Could be or couldn't be more.
Couldn't be more.
There are some good people there.
And there again, I think it's important to bring that Catholic community together.
Absolutely.
So that there's a religion.
Dr. Martin and Simon Terry, as you know, got quite a few of them.
Yes.
Defense.
Is there anything in the back?
Well, it's a... How do you see that?
Well, I think this organization, it'll work quite well.
We can initially use the Senate Policy Committee until the new man gets
So you don't have to decide who wants to coordinate it as a partner.
You can use that.
It's not a file.
Ken, if he wants, or he can create a new one.
It's really the outside of Trichard.
It doesn't belong.
It really would be better if Morton would head up that little group.
Now, Simon would be a part of it, but I think it just works better.
There's a wrong place.
And, uh, does George want it?
He'll have a great influence on it.
I mean, Simon.
Sure.
Sure.
Why don't you?
Yeah.
We want George to have it.
All right.
I'll let you see.
George has got a hell of a lot of money here.
He's got the trade, he's got the tax, he's got a hell of a lot of money.
Just too much, Mr. Craig.
I think he knows it, don't you think?
I don't think he knows it.
He won't, he doesn't like to admit it, but he's just physically pushed behind.
He can't do all those things.
And also the economy, man.
If you add all those together, he's a brave man.
George is a strong man, but...
Well, he's a great guy.
I don't think it's very important that he's vegan and all that, but did he not have the responsibility to do it?
He just looked down too much.
He does well.
He works like hell.
That's right.
And he works hard.
He can't do all of it.
That's right.
But if he would be ridiculous, I know he will.
That would be a ridiculous assessment, too.
The sensitivity of some of them.
Oh, I don't know about that.
Well, I don't know about that.
But he's a very sensitive person, I understand, George.
Well, he's a great guy.
I think it's great that he would come to us.
Well, I just thought it was a good idea to just take it out.
I'm just taking it out.
I'm just taking it out.
I'm just taking it out.
I'm just taking it out.
I'm just taking it out.
I'm just taking it out.
I'm just taking it out.
I'm just taking it out.
I'm just taking it out.
I'm just taking it out.
I'm just taking it out.
I'm just taking it out.
I'm just taking it out.
I'm just taking it out.
I'm just taking it out.
I'm just taking it out.
I'm just taking it out.
I'm just taking it out.
I'm just taking it out.
I'm just taking it out.
And all of this, I think, probably does talk too much about Ron, and I want to try to get a bit of him.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, if this cop sort of had the idea of throwing everybody out, on the other hand, he's resigned.
We can't do that.
We've got a good team now.
We've got a hell of a team.
We're going to reset.
We're going to go forward.
We've moved Ron into a different position.
We're getting that done.
We're getting good people.
Ron is a very valuable guy.
Very valuable.
He didn't want to take everybody's ass from him.
Never.
The way the cat just ran away from all your people.
I can't do it.
The broads are totally dedicated to all of them.
Never.
He's a liar.
He's a damn liar.
If somebody lies to you, man, you've got to report it, right?
You know how it is.
You know, I'm the only one getting prepared to read these books.
I mean, they prepared for me.
I just say what they've done.
And if somebody's wrong, that's too bad.
That doesn't mean you're lying to them.
Well, I didn't have a wrong situation.
Well, I mean, Sarah, we were...
He's set up to...
I'll tell you what we're going to do with the exchange now.
You see, he is a... That's a very, very good sense of scheduling, I'd say.
I mean, for making charts of what it has to do, how it will do, and so forth and so on.
And we're doing that part of the wheel.
The overall supervision of that whole deal.
I mean, do you do the 4th of July thing in Cheyenne?
And the other thing is overall planning, press conferences and so forth and so on.
But we'll ask you this about your own contacts with the press when you started that.
Well, I thought I ought to be a force for communication with the press.
And I would rather, when I meet with the press,
Would rather meet with him openly, you know, and I don't like to...
I'd rather not do backgrounders.
I'd rather openly do it.
I do better than... That's what I want you to do.
No, I want... Let me say that what I did is very important to you and Colin.
You're both very strong men.
I want you right out there talking to the men, too.
Not talking to the back door, stairs, or somebody.
That's the way we get our story across.
And if you get one of them on that TV, that's worth a hundred words in a column.
That sort of thing.
I wanted to make a few of these calls with the cabinets.
And then I'm going to meeting with people like Mayor Washington and people like that.
I'm going down to his office and meeting with them.
I think it's good now for me to go to them.
Well, you make them come to you, and you're going to, you're going to, you're going to, you're going to, you're going to, you're going to, you're going to, you're going to, you're going to, you're going to, you're going to, you're going to, you're going to, you're going to, you're going to, you're going to, you're going to,
I think now, as he wants to get to, have touched all the spaces and get some of these substantive issues, maybe something on the economy, something on the, let me call in the line on the budget.
Yeah, the budget, the economic package, and we've got the energy thing, 500.
If you've got that, and if you've got the older message thing, I care.
Well, maybe the energy thing can go Monday or Tuesday, that would be good.
We're ready to go on Tuesday.
You can go on the mountain with California.
Yes, we did.
We did a lot of sailing back here.
Yeah, sure.
I thought we'd need some stuff to sail after Tuesday's announcement.
I might come out there for a day, but I think it's more important for me to be here.
Well, let me say here, actually,
welcome what you think for example we made it we want you to come out there and make some news and we'll have we'll have to provide some correspondence with us and uh what i like to do is uh is to just play that like a yo-yo don't just come out there and see but to come out there we're able to meet you step out really impressive we'd like to keep in touch with the
We've got our strategy worked out.
We'll throw you in there when the time comes.
Because let me say that I think that your advice on all of these matters is going to be very important.
But I think your presence
Publicly, it's very, very important.
And I don't want to either hide your... your powers under any... any push.
Whatever the case might be.
Which I don't think should be a problem to anybody.
Well, I don't think it's a problem to anybody.
Without that...
We already had a number of rather significant agreements on what we can and can't do for this fall, and I spent all day and a lot of energy on our meetings.
Friday will have a couple of very good days.
We'll have a very significant meeting on Monday, but it will end on a very high note.
And I think it's going to be very well.
Matter of fact, or Mel can hit that one too.
We should swap right over there for that.
As soon as we get that nailed up, we're going to have to nail her tomorrow.
I mean, I've got to go ahead and join on a couple of touching points.
But we think we know what's going to come out.
And it's going to be good.
It's going to come out to be a good number.
Okay, okay, I need to do it.
Well, let us say that, uh, you, uh, we've had an excellent reaction to your appointment here.
I see why you're all ready.
But you, you know how to operate.
You should get around.
I don't need to bother you about a lot of things.
Once in a while it's good to holler, but it's not... We will have basically a... probably a weekly meeting if you holler at us, in my show.
Right?
And we'll probably throw a rod into that, too, for reasons that are obvious.
No, I think that's a good idea.
How do you feel about Bryce?
What should he do?
I just don't want him to be a... to be a tenor, because any of us who protect those tenors are going to have to be worried.
And he's a darn good man.
But what would be your advice on Bryce?
Well, Bryce, I think, really has to...
can't stay away from the Congress.
And really, he's going to be bothered a lot about the people thing in the Congress, more than anything else.
Now, when I get in there today with a senator, they spent, you know, 35 minutes just on people, federal judges and all that kind of stuff.
It's just too bad for me, but you've got to listen to them.
Thank you.
He prepared us.
He prepared us.
And then the outside, a lot of these outside... You'll find that Bryce will fit in very well.
There will be no problem with Bryce fitting in.
working with Al and with Peter, just, it will be no problem there.
What I can get you to work on, really, but what it would require is that the three of you, with Rob, I think, heading to my work, VR, you could meet every day.
What does that do to your stamina?
I don't want to get... No, we've had it back to me every morning.
We just have to cut it down a little bit.
It's too big now.
What do you have to say?
By what I know, you might want to have a little super chef.
That's not a problem.
No, it's not a problem.
I think you have to be a little careful, Henry.
Yeah.
He feels that we're not caballing around...
Henry, open this.
We've got to have hands, too, you know, whatever it is.
Henry's willing to listen.
Whatever it is, yeah.
Don't do that, Henry.
Sure, sure.
You know that.
Yeah.
He's done a fantastic job on this.
I believe he's fantastic.
His agreements are great.
Well, you know, I don't know.
I don't know.