Conversation 947-007

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Yes, sir.

I think we had a good meeting this morning.

I've tried to get a feeling for what the Democrats are up to, and I think we can pretty well figure out what it is.

I think our strategy is to go very slowly, very, very slowly, and not perpetrate anything in August.

feed little bits and build one issue after another up until the period of February.

March, you're seeing all about, uh, I never gave them the scandal bits.

Oh, the scandal bits.

Oh, yeah, I know what they had in mind.

They, well, listen, I got parts from Henry and parts from the newspaper guy.

And

and he said that's

As late as they can have a peacock, but they have only one intention, and that's to get the bread.

No other intention.

But all of this just further strengthens my conviction that we've got to move in August in a very dramatic way.

And that we've got to get somebody started right now in drafting the speech as a vehicle.

We've got to use this economically.

and sound thinking on the economy.

When you speak of moving slowly, do you mean they're not going to get all the money on this?

Well, that would have been part of it.

I think they're boxed on that now because the committee itself knows that it couldn't get away with that.

But they do have an attrition strategy rather than a move massively strategy, and that probably came out of that.

are deemed to be a decisive factor.

So they're going to just try to build up.

I think their strategy was to knock us all over the factory for a month, and they failed.

And now they decide, well, we'll just eat away.

Yeah, just to keep a steady approach.

Their strategy, though, was before we panicked on the ballot, to recognize that, you know, so we're going to go on very tricks, and go on vans, and that sort of thing.

and focus of interest with people, if we can portray them as we would be able to, as men that are destructed, that are holding on to their business of government,

We do, and I think we have to prevail with great ease, quite frankly.

Now, certain things I think we have to do, and I've talked pretty carefully about it, and I think you'll remember how it is to me, is absolutely sound and is correct.

But I think, if you read the thoughts, but we want to build up our party structure.

Some of our old Republicans, because of, and we said that they,

And I think that's something we want to do some thinking about.

A whole number of the old establishments, maybe we ought to get together.

And I think Bryce would be very helpful in thinking about some kind of insurance in there, if anybody.

But some of you haven't heard, I think the work with the commerce has been just superb.

I mean, there's swine, there's a pantheon.

Sure, I'll take it if they don't want to do that again like this.

We are leaving.

This is not, this isn't, this is 40, you know, men that control all the iron steel in the U.S. again, 40 principles of the Roche, you know, control the iron, it's worked in.

Oh, absolutely.

I didn't go see Love between now and Friday surgery.

I have a change of command, so I'm going to leave on Monday and leave here on Friday.

Well, I've seen it on the economic package.

It looks much, much better than the one you were given earlier and more realistic.

And I don't think it's really ready or funny to address it as an international economic.

I don't know if George was in this morning with a hand on the dollar.

Yes.

I'm not sure we're in the right place.

We've converted all of it.

That's a linguist's attitude, but I think over the next three years, the Europeans don't believe in a sustainable condition, or we don't even support our own dollar.

They have to bounce now.

That's an attitude they have.

And I'm not sure we shouldn't ask them to look into that.

I think it's very important that this start, that attitude start developing here.

when we need them on price.

Oh, yeah, I'm sure.

But I'm talking about the other guys.

People are largely involved in other things, the domestic council.

God damn it, that's what they ought to be doing.

They ought to be doing our business.

I'm not sitting around telling people how to do it.

You get the impression they are doing the latter.

They're all, I guess everybody, that's about all they write you down.

Everybody has a better way to do it.

They don't like a different press attitude.

They don't like more offensive action.

There's something like the Evapt popping off on us.

And they're all good, genuinely.

Sure, they're all well-meaning.

But we've got to have a group to handle that.

And not everybody else.

The other people ought to be talking about the business of government, I think.

From a very...

which happened to coincide with what he was talking about.

So I ain't got nothing but encouragement from that.

Sure.

Well, that's good.

That's good.

But he's going to hear it.

We're going to hear it.

See, I don't know why I didn't say that.

How would they keep the thing alive?

How would they do it?

I think we're doing very well.

I think we're better off now than ever before.

four weeks ago when the men fled yesterday.

Goddamn good flight.

Your speech got good flight.

Hell, last night snooze if you look at the allocation of time

by a Rutgers professor in which he just took

meeting and he would be leaving Friday and come back the following Wednesday.

I don't think he should go.

I think he could send Pete Flanagan.

That's a- George, he had a whole lot of trust.

He couldn't even go out and make this thing.

Well, I- I didn't know that at first.

I read about it tonight there.

There was a paper for time, you know, I saw it Thursday afternoon.

I was like, God, what's this all about?

I noticed.

Well, there's the hall in this building on the eve of George's.

Everybody has one particular sort of soft spot.

Bryce believes that we should address that during the sessions.

I mean, because it's a great accomplishment for the Congress, and it's great for the President to go down.

I don't know if they bring it to you.

You know I'm writing a letter to you.

I heard a television speech.

I'm not sure that that's going to be justified in this case either.

Let me tell you why.

I sat behind the desk with you on the 13th and did this thing.

So I sat behind the desk again on July the 13th and said, well now we're going to go to phase four and I'm going to tell you what it does.

We are in a period now where people are calling and saying, why can't the president be out more and so forth and so on.

Why don't you go to Kansas City again?

Why don't you go to Chicago?

For what?

But my point is, we must never fall into the error of how

or speech or something at this point.

We've got to remember that it's very important at this point that the reaction to speeches is what they're all going to be watching for, not the content.

And therefore, the live audiences must be carefully selected.

That's why you rule out the Congress

Maybe that's what people do.

We've been overwhelmed.

It's certainly going to be great if you go up there.

But if I walk up there and say, look, I want you to back down the hatches and tighten your belts and so forth, and here comes phase four.

Now, it won't go.

It won't go.

No, I don't think we should decide how to do it anyhow until we see the entire shape of the package.

And the package should determine how it should be presented.

Just to step up and say, well, the president's going to go on a calendar year long for the Hill.

when you've got the substantive aspects of a package.

I'd take the best way to get that across.

And the character of the thing yet is not very complete.

I have a pretty good idea now of what they want to do.

I have selective controls, some far more rigid, some pass-throughs in areas that

If you go to an upper, if you go to a college graduate, most of those congressmen know what a pastor is.

You see, it's a, seems like we, I don't want to appear to be making suggestions to how to get out here and talk about our issues, but there are issues that we want to keep the country's attention on.

I mean, I didn't have any more trouble getting the metal and the price and the depth or anything to get that.

I think you're right.

You should take this trip.

You have a chance to talk to him any time today.

Right after the meeting here.

As soon as he gets a break.

Just say it was mine.

and political things because that's their issue they're political writers and if we play out of their hands i mean i'd say well look i just want to discuss it i think i agree and we know the democratic tactics are obviously going to be to find a way to embarrass us and harass us as long as they can but

They're talking about getting the president.

It's interesting that they've got a plan, the Tricia's versus, they mowed it as a creative thing, right?

Yesterday, with the goddamn thing on the precision bow, we brutalized justice.

They got a statement out finally late in the day.

Didn't make a notice, except for one letter.

That's right.

But they did get it out.

They got it out, and it was, they did it properly.

But I, goddammit, I wouldn't expect that to have been out by noon if they'd been doing the job properly.

But their records show that they could have found that out in five minutes.

They could have found out that their case was a loser.

He wouldn't pay him off.

Thanks to Iverson.

Damn, what the hell was the Justice Department?

Well, they did it.

They had a nice belly on a nice bed.

It was better than nothing.

And they moved on their own.

I called them and said we heard that.

Well, we'll see.

I'm telling the future of the Justice Department.

The future of the future.

What I'm saying, basically, is that kind of charge can be floated any day of the week.

They will be.

That's right.

And what I'm saying is that we have to, in the month of August, take this issue on, head on, so that the risk entailed in raising those kinds of charges, whether it be a newspaper or an individual, becomes unbearable.

Because American attitude is that, god damn it, we've had enough of this crap, let's end

one thing on the business and I'm not tolerating it.

That's what we're trying to get to.

Here's what we need.

We need a more aggressive man than George Bush, essentially.

He's the sweetest guy in the world, but as I've often said, George, it isn't his nature to say anything brutal, tough, you know, like that.

That's right.

We're going to need a hatchet guy.

That's our problem.

We need a hatchet guy.

if he wins, you know?

But he's worth a great deal, right?

Well, your attorney general should be a fighter.

Ha!

I'll tell you one thing, though, please, and I'm glad I...

There's a small point, but it was nice and irritating to me that my mother and he didn't take each other.

Well, he's going to hit me in the sack and we're going to have to get a report back.

I think if we put him in jail...

I haven't used it anymore.

I had a good talk with him on the plane yesterday.

Again, these guys, they don't ride well with press forces.

And again, they want to move, take it on, and overcome it.

Even though it may not be their area of interest.

And that's all good.

That's because they support you.

Why doesn't the President address Watergate?

Aren't you convinced to be the savior of, even though you get the accretion on investment and addressing it, the President always sticks it to you and says, oh, he didn't speak about the major law enforcement issue in the country and so forth and so on and so forth.

Now, I just feel that on that point, well, there are no good choices.

instruments for me to be talking about what I may be talking all about upstairs.

basically a non-populism.

But that shows you what would have happened if I even...

Hold blankly.

Or what do you say?

I know people who say, well, he's ignoring me.

That strategy is the correct strategy.

There isn't anyone that's thoughtful that has disagreed with that, even opponents.

Even your political opponents, who are responsible men in the arsenal, have said that, of course, you can't stood up and believe them until the goddamn facts are out.

And with every passing day, I'm more convinced that that decision was the right decision, despite the concerns of very good people, Colson and the rest of them.

They were wrong.

It's just that simple.

And you were right.

Today, you read it to, in the press, the people listening, and on the committee, how there's some something on the show, to speak to the southern band.

Now, you've done enough talking on it.

There's been too much talking on it.

That's it.

And too much influence on it.

But it gets out.

That's the problem.

That's what I don't like.

I just get sick and tired of it, and I don't think we need any more of that crap.

You know, getting more on our own staff here.

Well, you can control that.

I'll get you.

Yes, sir.

You know, just say hello.

I'm happy.

You know, I was doing a good job meeting you.

Well, I can tell you one way to control it is to let somebody go.

Yeah.

Right.

And if I need to, you know, I'm good.

I've got the firm evidence that Rudy has seen Evans three times in the last ten days.

Cleared through the White House Police.

Now, God damn it, they can say what they will about these stories going on.

And they're sick, bad ass stories.

They took on our key staff man, Malik.

They took on Bruce Curlie on Sunday.

That's why I'm seeing Evans today.

I want him to know that he's getting the wrong goat from the wrong people.

And it is not a policy to crucify people and whatnot.

Okay.

Will Mel sit down and let me know?

I mean, he hasn't talked to Mel today.

He swears that it isn't coming from his shop now.

All right.

I could just say to Mel, I wouldn't make any kind of question.

I'd say, now, Mel, you should know through searches that I cannot disclose what I have found conclusively in this document.

Well, if you didn't, it would be...

He's got to go.

Period.

I think he ought to go.

I don't like to deal with him, but I've never felt that he was frankly... Oh, frankly.

What do you say?

I know people who say, well, he's ignoring me.

That strategy is the correct strategy.

There isn't anyone that's thoughtful that has

disagree with that.

Even opponents, even your political opponents who are responsible in your arsenal have said that, of course, you can't stood up.

So the goddamn facts are out.

And with every passing day, I'm more convinced that that decision was the right decision.

And you were right.

Today, you read into it in the press, the people listening, and on the committee, and others who are sitting on the show, who are speaking to the subject matter.

How are you done not talking about it?

There's been too much talk.

That's it.

And too much influence on it.

But it gets out.

That's the problem.

That's what I don't like.

I just get sick and tired of it, and I don't think we need any more of that crap.

well you can control that i'll get you yes sir yeah

I've got the firm evidence that Rudy has seen Evans three times in the last ten days, cleared through the White House police.

Now, God damn it, they can say what they will about these stories going on.

And they're sick, bad stories.

They took on our key staff man, Malik.

They took on Bruce Curlie on Sunday.

That's why I've seen Evans today.

I want him to know that he's getting the wrong goat from the wrong people.

You know, there is not a policy to crucify people in Lebanon.

Will Mel sit down if you let him go?

I mean, he has to talk to Mel today.

He swears, he swears that it isn't coming from his shop.

Yeah.

All right.

I could just say to Mel, look, Mel, you should, I wouldn't make any, I wouldn't make any of the question.

I'd say, now, Mel, you should know through searches that I cannot disclose what I have found conclusively in this doctrine along two different opinions.

Well, I don't know.

I mean, Judy, I told you, you get Rudy on the mail.

Right.

And he just didn't tell the mail.

It was scarier than this.

It was light and easy.

Well, I think it's really funny.

Let's be realistic here.

If I said the mail, Rudy's got to go, he'd be in here in five minutes.

Yep.

On the other hand, he's got to be, he's got to have a fear of God for him.

And that is a war.

And the fact that he's seen this guy, right, you know, he's writing the wrong stuff.

So there's nobody else to attribute it to.

Right.

And that means he should stop sitting in there if it continues.

And then we're going to have to get rid of him.

That's right.

If he sees it, no.

You can say it.

President.

If he sees this man once more,

He's off the staff.

Are you just saying that?

Yeah, I'm just saying, you know, you have to have a system here where the president can come to the White House.

This is for a child.

And the president's reporting.

And as you know, I think you should tell them that Rudy talks to this man once in a while.

He's off the staff.

You talk to him once in a while.

Don, have you seen him?

I can just blow this away.

LSA, well, I don't think so.

He's a good man.

That's it.

Maybe he should go off the staff now.

I'll play a little tough game with him.

Getting back to Ruggles' house, how do you tell Richardson?

I'll just tell him, well, look, he's doing much for us.

He should keep Steve, or Steve, what's his name?

Just don't forget another man.

Don't forget another man acceptable to you.

Don't make fun of him.

And we can't deprive him of his ability to pick his deputies.

Well, I say also, I'm going to make a decision on what I'm going to ask today.

I'm going to talk to Elliot today about what he's going to do for us, how he's going to approach this thing.

I'm going to get very, very blunt on a number of issues.

Good.

If he's totally cooperative and he's really

recognizes the cop's threat, and the need to get his reservation cut right down in the finite terms, and to fight any deviation from that, and to take on a role as your lawyer, first and foremost, then I would be less concerned.

But I saw another thing, God, that Justice puts out there.

Elliott has changed the style of the Justice Department from an obsession with the law and order to an obsession with social justice.

Well, folks, we're going to have to let that go.

That's going to be the rest of the world.

All right.

You're to take it.

I would say that Tom, the president, directly saw that and that he

I didn't have an obsession with law and order and justice, but he's not going to say that, that that's the wrong signal, the wrong signal that I, that I've directed.

The press secretary's going to knock that down in the Senate.

I just want him to know that.

I mean, Shane will try to do his I.Q.

Well, that's what I'm going to do today.

I'm going to be a state one.

I don't know why you can't.

You're going to be the free-of-law dean.

Yes, sir.

It's going to be a long one.

Okay.

to see Elliot.

Well, I'll catch it this fall morning.

Would you like to go to the yard in the morning?

Yes, sir.

job loads and any time you don't just tell them to go on, I'm saying.

We used to have Thursdays.

Thursday evening, right, right, right.

You know, when we had a schedule, I think we'd be cussing them out Thursday morning for two weeks from now and so that's when we had this.

And then they'd eat for two more.

Yeah.

There isn't really much of a need for that.

I don't mind, but I can't have meetings every week.

I mean, it's, oh, we've got to, I guess we have a granite farm, too.

We've got Britain tomorrow.

Yeah.

And that we can make very sure.

Awesome.

Well, that's why there's a little noise.

But law and order should be high up, and I've got to continue to talk about it.

And he had one murder, for example, now over there.

That would be fine.

Lynn would be fine with justice.

I just wondered if you could make that change.

Well, we'll see what works across that bridge.

We want Elliott to stay if we can.

What we need is to get his assets, and he's got some.

Well, that's what Elliot perceives right now, because of that damn press conference.

I'm just going to raise this one.

Well, I think what we should do is wait.

He'll raise it for me, and I'll just say there's no time to raise that issue.

But the answer is no to that.

That's very good.

We made some good decisions and some bad.

We should never have made decisions on the way to the back that turned us both sideways to the left.

That was the problem.

What happened was that in your case, you see, we didn't turn to the left.

We turned to a different side.

That was good.

They both are sort of pragmatic kind of thoughts.

Now, in the case of Richardson, we turned around.

In the case of Roberts House, we turned around.

You understand?

We said, well, we've got to get somebody in the FBI above the reproach.

We've got Roberts House in there.

Everybody's going to be fine.

They're going to, well, he has a high reputation of honesty and integrity and independence.

So Richardson, you know, we put in, well, we've got to have some

Although, as it turned out, I'm inclined to think that if I had moved at that time and lived over there, he might not have had any more difficulty than Richardson getting through.

Because it turned out that he would not have given Cox the rope that was following his death.

But that thing that Richardson finally agreed to went too far.

I mean, he had to make some concessions.

He worked on it.

Because even then, the real tragedy was the man.

Oh, man, that was that.

He did that to himself.

I asked him, I said, Thomas, you could, you know, a man of the right kind, a person with any charge, all right, he would have known in his own heart what was appropriate.

Yeah.

Well, then he would just start posturing himself.

But we would certainly tell him to.

It was very good, very serious, very articulate.

But you see, that was why I go in there in that way at that time.

That's the kind of play we have to make.

That's what I'm working on.

It has to have a substantive face that has a kind of question.

That's right.

It doesn't look like this.

All hoping to try.

Oh, God, oh, God, oh.

the next two weeks or a week.

A week from the next finding.

All right.

I'm going to just tear it apart and ask everybody to work with me.

Good luck.