Nixon, Ziegler & Rogers on Watergate and John N. Mitchell

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Thank you.

People who ought to do that basically are people who attend such meetings.

Right, I agree.

I didn't say that I, that Julie can't get back in time, so you let them go scrub that, and uh, you can tell, uh, get the public in the boat for me.

I believe, uh, you might, uh,

They can be ready in a half hour.

I'll leave here in about 15 minutes.

15 minutes beyond the bullet record or so.

But you know, it's ridiculous that you can discuss this.

We've had a thousand days like this.

We've never really, perhaps I don't really hold it.

It doesn't make any difference.

But now it seems to be a period.

We have to do it each other.

I agree.

I'm going to have lunch with William White tomorrow.

That's just one way and then the other.

Oh, that's a compliment.

But I've brought wires, coffee, and Jerry and the rest.

I've already told Jerry that.

Yes, sir.

Absolutely.

Yes, sir.

So that's that.

Most of it, because the day job that I had with him, when I heard, I heard that he did an excellent job, and he's cutting Dean's

apart very well.

As a matter of fact, the gal who has been monitoring this for me, she makes a note in here that she has a feeling that the senators are believing Dean.

Senators are believing Mitchell over Dean.

Because Mitchell, when he says something, is backing it up with fact.

Like when it's suggested by Dean that he met with Mitchell, who the turn told him to go.

request something from Erleman or Haldeman that he was out of town.

He documents when he was out of town.

And Trey Thompson asked Mitchell if he would mind going over the being testimony tonight, if he wouldn't mind, and come tomorrow with a rundown on where Mitchell disagrees with the being testimony.

So it's moving perfectly.

And the other thing that's happening, too,

is Scott, who's a bellwether thing, said, Bob, you know where I get a copy of that mean testimony?

You know, the testimony from, I mean, the part that, not the testimony, he said, but the report on the hill.

Right.

I said, oh, yes, sir.

I think we may do it.

He said, I said, that's public record, Senator.

Yeah, but I don't want to have to commit it for him, he said.

If I get it, you know, so we got that to him.

And a little while later, old Bob Pierpont said,

He said, you know, CBS has a Camp David thing, because I've mentioned this to Pierpoint out in California.

He said, we've got a copy of that from the committee.

He said, but they, kid, were having a hell of a time deciphering his handwritten notes.

You haven't copied any by any chance to decipher it.

I said, Bob, I don't know if the counsel's office has done that or not, but I'll tell you.

I said, if I get a copy to you.

You guys can't say that the White House is peddling.

Oh, no, no, no, no.

I'm sure this is going to come to the forefront.

So that's moving, too, you see.

And it's hard sometimes to restrain ourselves.

But I'd be damned if I think by not reacting, by playing it cool in California in relation to Dean, that it's going to get him.

Because if we would have started a massive program, gotten caught at it, then Mitchell would have been

a little difficult period because mitchell's defending the president with some beautifully warm words oh yeah he said uh he said uh i i haven't looked down here but i should be able to go right to him but just to paraphrase him in making the point that uh he knew i understand

That was the entire discussion.

The entire discussion.

Here, Mitchell says that he never told the president about involvement.

the involvement of the committee to re-elect or anything about the cover-up.

And he concluded for the committee in his testimony that the president did not know, and he said he based that on his knowledge, his mental knowledge, and we'll discuss it with you, on the fact that he had known that he had, of his own personal knowledge, knew of no one else who had talked to you about it.

And he said based on his personal knowledge of the president and his faith in the president and his respect for the president,

that he knew that in the course of the conversations that he had had with you, that had you been aware of it, he said, he told you that the subject would have come forth in some way or another if the president had known.

And then he called and he said, Mr.

Dash, I want you to know that I do have faith in the president.

And, you know, it was quite good.

Oh, of course we know that.

He's straight political.

He's a sleazy type guy.

He's a man, as I said, raised a little question about apprenticeship.

He's always woken up so strongly for dash.

He's very honorable and trusting, you know.

Maybe he's honorable now.

Took a little time.

Mitchell sliced apart Magruder, too.

Magruder?

He should have.

I think so.

I think Magruder's...

I have a feeling Magruder's... You said he's a facile liar.

I think he lied the first time.

My view is the second time he was lying more because he's got some deal with the prosecutors.

Maybe so.

I am confident that he had a little bit of a deal for a while.

But I think that's what it is, isn't it?

I have a feeling, and I remember I did say, Mitchell may be wrong, but he was a man who felt that it felt wrong.

Yet, it could well be, it could well be that the key people in this happen may be Dean and the group.

I think so.

Dean and the group.

You know, the more this comes along, it seems that's the case.

Dean's hand turns out too much.

You know, he's, what the heck.

And over there, you know, and they were, they were fixing up a computer, or whatever it was, getting rid of those, and stuff like that, and saving, and so forth, whatever it was.

It was Dean's office that was working on it.

I agree.

Here's another good thing that you said in response to a rather lengthy time each

You know, I've been in public office for a long time, and advisors should come to me, tell me speaking, and tell me what was wrong.

Why didn't he tell me?

He said, why on earth didn't you walk into the president's office and tell him the truth, Mitchell?

The truth.

Well, Mitchell says, it wasn't a question of telling the truth.

It was a question of not involving him at all, so that he could go on through the campaign without being involved in this type of activity.

Now, I'm talking about the White House horrors, particularly, as I've testified this morning, that I was sure, knowing Richard Nixon, this president, as I do, that he would just lower the boom on all this matter and would come back to hurt him, and that it would affect him in his re-election.

And that's the basis upon which I made the decision, and apparently others concurred with it.

Now, I'm not going to speak for them.

It may well be that I was wrong, sir.

And it may be bad judgment.

What was it that he meant?

He wasn't talking about what?

Well, you see, he's admitted that he was aware of the possible Magruder culpability.

Oh, had he?

Yeah, and the fact.

He's also aware that Magruder was going to tell the grand jury's story, which was inconsistent with the facts.

He was aware of that?

But he did say that he did not coerce.

This is what makes this unbelievable.

But he said he did not coerce Magruder.

He did not pressure Magruder.

It was a study, he said, where he was there.

And Magruder told the group assembled how he was going to testify.

And Mitchells also said that, he said, quite frankly, he said, we kept the lid on it.

Our objective was not to volunteer any information in the course of the investigation because, he said, I felt it would embarrass the committee.

He said, but why didn't I tell the president?

went through this, he said the retrospective was probably the same, but he said the fact of the matter, I did not.

And he said, I don't believe the president knew about this, he said here.

If he had known, he said it would have

to the campaign, and he would have just lowered the boom.

He said he knows the president well enough.

He would have lowered the boom and would have affected the whole thing.

It would have been, in his view, in his view, whether he didn't tell the president, whether he didn't tell the president about Grutter's possible.

Is that the question?

Not his own.

Good.

I guess we'll be in.

No, as a matter of fact, he's denied knowledge.

He admits the meetings, but he denies approval and has a pretty good story on them.

And he denies seeing Gemstone's file.

And he really went back at Dash on that.

See, Dash said, well, McGruder testified that he had a Gemstone file.

Mitchell said, Mr.

Dash, McGruder didn't testify along that line.

He caught Dash up.

He said, if you recall the testimony, I do, specifically Mr.

Dash,

Legruder testified, or no, not Legruder, but Reisner testified, Reisner testified that they maintained a Mitchell file in which they put the gemstone material.

And he said, Mr.

Dash, I never saw that material.

That's a fact.

So he said Mitchell's always doing very well on that stuff.

Looks good.

How does he handle the payment thing?

Yeah, and he has a pretty good story on that.

What did he say all the time?

You admit it?

Oh, this might be the first problem.

I don't know.

This is not direct transcript testimony.

This month.

No, no, no, no.

I'm avoiding it.

He goes through this very clearly in terms of the meeting of his apartment and so forth, and he nails Dean again, who said that he was not aware of the cover-up until he met there.

He said Dean indicated in the meeting that he had already met with William and Luther, Sean, or William and Colson, relative to what had occurred.

And he also discussed, he said that... Well, that was when they... That's right.

And he also said that Dean said in that meeting that he had discussed with Colson that he was trying to get Hunt out of the country at that time.

He said, why was Dean at the meeting?

He said he assumed that LaRue and Marty had called him and requested him to attend.

Verney asked Mitchell if at any time he discussed payments to the defendants at any meeting, or did he ever request Dean to get approval for payments.

Mitchell said he did not.

He said Gurney asked Mitchell if he had any personal knowledge of the Watergate payments, how the money was raised by the woman who paid it.

Mitchell indicated that he had never talked to any of the defendants.

He never handled or discussed any negotiations in connection with the defendants.

He never saw the letters which Hunt wrote.

He stated that he was never aware of the Stans transaction with Kambach, but though Stans testified before the committee regarding his meeting and the transfer of funds to Kambach.

What's the answer to that, Dr. Eaton?

No, this is some of the, apparently, early payments.

Go ahead.

So he doesn't specifically deny activating anyone, you see.

He's suggesting himself to the stands.

Is real, on the money side of the question, is there, I don't think he's got much of what I heard that he told me.

somebody to activate a compound to raise the early money, the money for the film.

He doesn't deny that.

At least he doesn't deny it or refer to it.

And he also, apparently, used LaRue.

LaRue was testified to that.

Mitchell asked him to do it, or what?

What does LaRue do?

LaRue was not testified.

Well, at least it's good to have John Mitchell down there as a farmer, trying to get him out looking big and strong and honest.

Gurney then pursued the matter of executive clemency and Gurney indicated that Dean has testified that Mitchell requested Dean to offer executive clemency to McCord.

Mitchell said that's just a flat lie.

He said Mitchell pointed out, this is where Mitchell's good, Mitchell pointed out that the negotiations with McCord began, according to previous testimony, when Mitchell was in Florida.

Mitchell, Florida, when was this, Ron?

I don't know.

Dean testified, Mitchell told Dean to author Clemson.

You know what I think?

I think Dean's been up all Clemson himself.

I think he has.

So he claimed it earlier, told him to do it.

He claimed that Colson told him to go out.

Well, I've got a deal on that.

I'll get over it.

I'll swipe myself when I can.

But Morris was the first one, but Helden was the second one.

Well, John was the first one.

John was the first one.

Dean was the first one.

John Dean Clark.

I'm sure we'll cut him up.

More we'll cut him up.

I'm sure more we'll cut him up.

How long ago we'll cut him up?

How long?

Early.

He'll be cut, sir, John.

On the other hand, John will have a lot.

Mm-hmm.

the same way Bob had just reported.

They checked over there at the IRS, and they found so far that John Dean had sent over some requests in October, in October, for, I don't know, this, to, you know, for IRS actions, or something, for various people.

And at Walters, Schultz turned around flat.

Dean's out of Oakland.

Yeah, yeah, yes.

So, they talk about harassment and so forth.

Dean's out of Oakland, yeah.

I mean, here's... Now, we got to leave that.

But the main point is, nothing was done.

I told Don, I don't care.

I don't care.

I said it more early than all of us.

The answer is we didn't.

You know what I mean?

That's all we have found.

All the way until the liberty election.

Discussion.

Very, very much.

So that's why I'm out here.

I've come out for a while.

And the IRS didn't see me.

I didn't strike them.

When they planted me, they surveyed me.

I would just put out that one time.

Dean made it.

Dean brought some very active...

I mean, he was the guy that made the business on his own.

That's what I finally concluded.

Rather than being a passing agent, just being a good little lawyer doing what he was told to do, I named Dean on the other hand.

sort of enjoyed the cops' democracy.

And I think Reuters was actually the same kind of fish.

And I think the two of them went off.

Now, they may have felt that it had the approval of all of them.

We all just kind of came to a campaign, I guess.

But this guy, I think, I think he could be the person that's probably going to be the one.

You know what I mean?

On a lot of this stuff.

I don't mean that the others are guiltless in terms of intent.

Or in terms of not restraining him, or in terms of perhaps, uh, you got a point?

Yes, sir.

I think it's absolutely accurate, too.

I'm just surprised it's so close.

Yes, sir.

Has Irving got out of it yet?

No.

That'll be a, he'll kill her, I predict.

Kill her.

he could just hold the way he did today.

You will have cracked.

No, but I don't think so.

I was worried about Mitchell for a period when we got that report out of New York.

But I sense when it looked like he was going to

We were talking out there.

I thought if he committed himself, he was going to be all right.

He could be carried tomorrow.

I think he will.

I think he's ready tomorrow.

I think he's a good possibility, yes.

I think he could be in a law course in a credit state like the first one.

Well, of course you didn't press them hard.

They did not press them hard, as we've discussed.

The best we've ever had in a long time.

They will give a right kind of time.

Don't worry, John will be going through it.

John is smart.

He'll prepare himself well.

All of this indicates why Cox and these fellas like to move into indictments.

I think.

Maybe.

I mean, they do.

These cases.

Okay.

As one of the wires pointed out today, you know, there is very, at the Senate committee hearings, you know, there are just total, absolutely conflicting testimony by, you know, more than two against one.

Well, the whole bit is Cox not moving on.

He also murdered...

They're coming with it.

Yeah, but what can he say, except he had assumed Phelps had the impression.

Oh, yeah, I mean, you know, about this whole thing with the crow, you know, discussing what you were thinking about.

You never know what a guy will say in a case like that.

That's right.

What he is going to stand for.

What's supposed to get us from the head?

Judgment.

We just deny it.

And I think that this community is under very, very great pressure.

I mean, I don't want to tell a story, but John Dean told me about it.

You know, sub-diamond.

I think it was the 15th or 17th of March.

In that period of time.

And I was utterly amazed.

I said, what in the hell?

The way he told me about it, he says, Ervin, it's not a problem.

I said, well, it's a problem.

He said, well, then go away from this site.

I said, what in the hell do you mean by that?

Well, let's see.

Ervin actually asked for the president to give clear indications that there should be

Howard Smith did a very good commentary on that.

You see him in the news every this morning.

To the effect that the President had authority in the act of Congress to take action to set up the plumbers and other things.

Correct?

That's where you go back on that?

No, no, no, absolutely not.

The Civil Libertarian, we don't get there.

We're sorry.

All right, let's talk about it.

Don't you think that's something they would be able to beat, huh?

I don't know.

Go ahead, sir.

Well, I hear they say you can't give us a fire all night.

I mean, right.

but do you really want him to take a little over on that?

Do you?

I don't know, but I still can't believe it.

I don't know, sir.

You got time?

Sure.

I'll be there.

I just like to get out of it.

No worries, sir.

My problem is that I've been brought in from Chicago.

I have, yes.

Well, I had my hand, too, but I didn't get a little bit of it.

Okay.

Relax, sir.

I'll tell you, I was talking to the president about this, about the fact that, you know, it's good that we

sort of restrained herself up there because now God should come in and like, Scott, I don't know if you were around this morning, he said, what is that thing that Dean wrote up on the hill?

It's a Bob Aldrich thing that kind of started a little later before Pierpoint comes in.

He said, we've got that thing from the hill, but we can't read the handwriting.

Do you think maybe we could just decipher it out?

So people are starting to think in those terms.

And why would they be interested in that?

Because there's further contradiction.

And lifting the Medellin bill totally destroys the idea that the president was involved in all of this.

I mean, he was writing that.

Does he claim that he wrote, I guess he claims that he wrote that memo deliberately as part of a compromise?

No, you see, that...

You may claim that, but that dirt is cold and you're evil through it.

Why?

Because it goes too far for covering.

And if the objective of that memorandum was for covering, then Dean would have had to say, okay, release it and send it to prison.

Why?

Didn't it terminate him?

Oh, I see.

And that one will terminate you, sir.

Oh, I didn't realize that.

Well, that's her crime, a lot of that, and didn't put the president in that.

Your name was not, the president was not mentioned in any way whatsoever.

Never is.

God, they're going to be destroyed this week.

Well, maybe it's, you know, it'll take a little while, but let me tell you the fact.

But the way that they did it, they did it on us.

See, the Colson view, frankly, I'm concerned about it, and it may have still been right in terms of our taking a lot of advantage.

The closing viewpoint as far as taking Dean on is wrong.

Aren't you agree?

Somebody else has to be strong.

So the problem with taking Dean on, we remember our decision on that, was we took him on.

And we didn't even have a Mitchell factor.

But we were concerned about war, and we were concerned about combat, and we were concerned about home, and we still are.

We still are, but I mean, looking at this testimony today by Mitchell, had we moved in an overt way, or even in a covert, aggressive covert way, that everyone in town would have known we were planning stuff like that, Mitchell's testimony would probably be today 40% less effective.

Because he is supporting the President.

By saying he had not discussed this with the president.

His credibility, therefore, is good because he seems to be telling the truth by admitting things.

And if we had moved against Dean, then it would have seemed like there was some cabal with him.

That's a very well, he says, an effect.

You say an effect admits that he thinks McGregor is involved.

He admits it.

admits that he thought he was involved as a matter of fact he admitted that mcgruder came to his office and they sat there and uh talked about his testimony before he came to the ground yeah but did mcgruder say that he was involved yeah i mean mitchell said that he mitchell left a clear impression in his testimony that he was aware but what he said he said it was not a situation

where Magruder was coached or was instructed to do anything.

It was more a situation where Magruder came to, you know, this meeting and stated what he was going to say.

Why didn't you tell the president?

He said, this is a very good point.

Well, he said that in making the point about had he told the president or not.

He said, no, he didn't, because he said if he told the president two things,

to the president in that campaign.

I think it would embarrass the campaign.

And secondly, in the final instance, the president would come down with a move.

Well, that's not a bad idea.

That's great.

But the point is, the next president should be here.

All right.

Thank you.

I'll get a chance to relax.

You are too loud.

You're too loud.

Is there a door that you can pass out?

Nixon, Ziegler & Rogers on Watergate and John N. Mitchell

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Also recorded on July 10, 1973

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