Nixon White House Tapes — Conversation 949-011
Date: Thursday, July 12, 1973 at 4:48 PM
Participants: Woods, Rose Mary; [Unknown person(s)]; Nixon, Richard M. (President); Kissinger, Henry A.
Recording device: Oval Office
Source: https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/949-011

This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite it as authoritative.

[0:02] Go ahead.
[0:11] You can be back in a moment.
[0:19] Did anybody like visit the watch for Julie and say, I'm happy that my mom and dad are home today?
[0:36] Ladies, please be careful.
[0:38] I'm glad I'm coming in.
[1:04] And we've got the main thing, and it's got roads and stuff.
[1:08] Roads, oh yes.
[1:12] Yeah.
[1:13] That's fine.
[1:13] We better put that back in the box.
[1:17] OK. Do you want me to have, you know, carry the whole thing?
[1:19] There it is.
[1:29] Which was the beginning of his change of mind about you.
[1:58] Because he thought that was the most professional thing he'd ever seen.
[2:01] He was doing an article for a live.
[2:04] And then I hadn't heard from him until he called me last week and said he was doing an article about Watergate.
[2:08] Would I be willing to see him?
[2:11] Now, I like his writings.
[2:12] He's always chosen the original mind.
[2:16] So I agreed and I had lunch with him.
[2:19] Today?
[2:20] Yeah.
[2:21] Good.
[2:22] And, you know, I was...
[2:24] just going to be defensive to keep him, I thought he'd have the usual radical approach.
[2:31] And he said, he said he was very impressed by Mitchell, who was a real man, tough man.
[2:40] He said that in his judgment, and this amazes me, I mean, amazes me from this point, he said, he said, don't let it fool you, this is going to be the
[2:51] transformation of the president.
[2:53] He said now he's going to become even perhaps a beloved figure of many people because he said what you're doing is what the average American can identify with, a man who hangs in there, who doesn't rattle, who overcomes adversity.
[3:09] He says it's going to take a while.
[3:12] He thinks it's over.
[3:13] He thinks there's no chance of them destroying him now.
[3:17] I think it might be easier on this paper thing, but the whole thing.
[3:20] All of a sudden, those papers have to burn.
[3:22] Hopper and every guy with that paper.
[3:25] Every paper in this house burned under that committee.
[3:28] Mr. President, it would be irresponsible to let those sons of bitches... Dick Moore made a good statement when he was in the barber shop.
[3:35] But she also said he knew you didn't know anything.
[3:38] Now they're grilling him.
[3:39] He isn't fast enough on his feet.
[3:40] They're not tough enough.
[3:42] But they're not there grilling him about crap.
[3:44] They're...
[3:45] It's outrageous.
[3:46] What he should do is to tell them that their questions are irrelevant.
[3:51] They're asking him about IT and T and stuff like that.
[3:54] He did nothing about that.
[3:55] So, but he made a very good statement.
[3:59] But he makes a total statement that he knows very well.
[4:02] See, he was with me on occasion when he saw me.
[4:04] He was the one that told him to come in and tell me.
[4:07] And that's what he said.
[4:10] But he said that on March 20th, he was at a meeting with you, and he knew you didn't know that.
[4:16] After that meeting, he asked Dean whether he had told you, and Dean had said no.
[4:21] And he said then he told Dean to make sure to tell you.
[4:25] And then Dean didn't, you see.
[4:26] And then, on the first, Dean didn't tell him about his own law, and he never really directly involved mental illness in our home, and it was all...
[4:35] Well, they might be involved.
[4:37] They might be involved.
[4:39] The interesting thing is, no, no, I think it was a very strong statement.
[4:44] But Mabel, it was very fascinating to me.
[4:51] I have a little case of viral pneumonia that I should remember.
[4:54] I probably have it for about two days.
[4:57] And so I'm going to go out at about 6.30.
[5:08] I don't think that's right.
[5:21] But the point is,
[5:34] Somebody's going to know it.
[5:36] In fact, the most important thing now is to keep my physical body in shape to do this job.
[5:44] Mr. President, I think you must go to bed.
[5:47] Yeah, I hate to do it.
[5:49] And no one asks you to be superhuman every...
[5:53] But I know at this stage even a touch of humanity is even helpful.
[6:02] But I...
[6:03] But I thought that Mailer said... Mailer is a very good man.
[6:07] And he spoke, really, he spoke with a section of you, and he wanted to hear all about you, what sort of a man are you.
[6:15] That's good.
[6:16] And I gave him a lot of stuff.
[6:17] I said, you know, all this nonsense.
[6:21] He is a man who spends hours alone.
[6:23] He's the most philosophical president that I think we have had certainly in this century.
[6:30] All this nonsense.
[6:31] All this nonsense.
[6:33] And he wanted examples, and I gave him some of our discussions about young people and about where this country is going, and it's certainly going to appear in his introduction.
[6:44] That's interesting.
[6:45] You think she was going to be...
[6:57] I think, Mr. President... No, no, I wasn't putting him off.
[7:01] I meant to tell...
[7:02] When I came in, I wanted to tell you, if he can bring off 80% of what he says he will, and I don't see how the French can dare to stand up, you are going to have a smash in Europe at the end of this year because nobody expects it.
[7:20] And...
[7:20] They are willing to do great detail on security, great detail on economics, great detail on political consultation.
[7:27] All we need is them.
[7:29] If the Germans do it, the British will do it.
[7:32] I've already lined up the Belgians.
[7:36] So we've got three strong supporters, the French and the Dutch.
[7:40] Certainly I've talked to them because they'll certainly go along.
[7:44] I've got the Italians coming on Monday, they're just slaughtering with enthusiasm that anyone has taken them seriously.
[7:52] And if we can set up this pyramid of meetings, two in Brussels and a summit in Paris, and since no one expects anything to come out, it is better than what we have planned.
[8:04] And I think then, if one puts all of this in the Watergate context, Mr. President, by the end of this year,
[8:11] These guys are going to look like a bunch of dogs slapping at your heels again.
[8:14] I should go ahead and hug them down and tell them I stole the whole thing myself and looked at all the documents.
[8:23] That's how we won the election.
[8:24] That's if they want to hear the truth.
[8:27] I went to them and heard it today.
[8:29] I said, where'd you go, Senator?
[8:32] Who are you out to get?
[8:33] Did you talk to him?
[8:35] No, because I had to because he had...
[8:38] written a letter demanding documents, and said I'd like to call him about it.
[8:42] And I wanted to, I wanted to put it off so that I didn't see him.
[8:49] Why, it was an early conversation.
[8:50] Al sat there gulping.
[8:52] Oh, he proved.
[8:52] It's like the one I had with the green.
[8:55] Remember that one?
[8:56] Oh, yeah.
[8:57] The first one.
[8:59] Of course, you always do it in a very pleasant manner.
[9:02] You do it tough when you have a deal.
[9:04] It's too damn pleasant with him, though.
[9:07] But I said, you know, what do you want about the documents?
[9:10] He said, what do you have in mind?
[9:13] He said, well, we can't.
[9:14] I said, tell us what you want.
[9:15] He said, well, we want any activities that have to do with water.
[9:20] I said, well, that's all.
[9:21] He said, well, we'd have our council come down and go through the documents.
[9:25] I said, no, Senator, that isn't going to happen.
[9:29] He said, everything from your committee leaves.
[9:34] Do you know that?
[9:34] Yeah, that would be fine, Senator.
[9:36] I said, I was .
[9:37] And he said, well, how about that?
[9:38] Because his letter said he wanted himself and members of his staff to come down and have a talk with me about the destruction of the thing.
[9:44] I said, Senator, no, I won't do that.
[9:47] I was .
[9:47] I said, well, how about another suggestion?
[9:53] I said, Senator Baker, do you need to come?
[9:56] I said, no.
[9:57] I said, Baker's no constitutional lawyer.
[9:59] I said, I'll see you alone.
[10:03] You want to come?
[10:03] But I can't do it this week.
[10:04] I said, I'm busy with economic matters.
[10:07] I've got to work on that.
[10:07] But he said, we've got to bring these witnesses in.
[10:12] And we have four days.
[10:14] And I said, well, we were talking about Paul.
[10:19] I said, when are you going to hear him?
[10:21] He said, next week.
[10:23] I said, Senator, I don't think you're correct.
[10:25] I said, I don't think you're going to hear him until the next week.
[10:30] He was sitting there.
[10:32] Of course, the old ass.
[10:33] And of course, I was right.
[10:34] He got it to him.
[10:36] I said, as far as documents are concerned, I said, a top secret document.
[10:46] You read one of the files.
[10:52] No reason not to talk to them.
[10:54] You can't let this son of a bitch get away with this.
[10:59] You'll squeal and the press will say the president was tough.
[11:01] I was decent, but I was very tough.
[11:03] I think the press has had it, and they know it.
[11:10] I think they have had it.
[11:11] It's all set.
[11:19] It's a usual thing now.
[11:23] We've got Larry and Harlow, even Harlow, pushing for a compromise.
[11:29] Maybe we can give them some.
[11:31] You know, work something out.
[11:34] Sit down with the committee and work it out.
[11:39] Let's not have a constitutional crisis.
[11:42] As Al said, just like the convoy and troop withdrawals and everything else, sometimes you can't compromise.
[11:49] So we'll have a constitutional crisis.
[11:51] I mean, we do.
[11:52] It'll be a goddamn ding-dong battle.
[11:56] And we might lose.
[11:57] I'll burn the fingers.
[11:59] Because I got them.
[12:01] That's the point.
[12:03] The election.
[12:03] I would never turn these papers over to the court.
[12:08] Never turn them over to the committee.
[12:09] You see, if you make the selection, they won't accept it.
[12:11] Well, I said if I selected them, I had a question.
[12:13] But I had deliberately not selected papers.
[12:15] I knew that papers were a crime.
[12:17] But my counsel did come.
[12:18] I said, oh, your counsel's
[12:27] He got the message.
[12:32] Now, after the way to Baker, Bishop, first through Salt Falls to Dena, and man, I hate to tell you, Howard Baker has never been to Dena White House again.
[12:49] That's right, through Salt Falls.
[12:50] But actually, he's working out pretty well.
[12:52] as a mature and tough guy.
[12:55] Really?
[12:55] Yes.
[12:56] I didn't see much of him, but what I saw, he impressed me.
[13:03] And compared to these lackey, selfish little bastards like Bruder and Dean, at least you could see why Mitchell was an adoption for Charles.
[13:13] And, uh...
[13:20] So far now, Mitchell has flatly said, you didn't know.
[13:24] Moore has said, you didn't know.
[13:26] I'm sure all the men will say the same thing.
[13:29] So will her.
[13:33] And so I'm sure they will.
[13:34] And what the hell have they got?
[13:35] A colt, they'll say.
[13:37] A colt and a kilter.
[13:38] A strong one.
[13:40] A lower one.
[13:45] A strong one is in the deemed category.
[13:46] You can't add anything to deemed.
[13:48] All these are basically a...
[13:52] What concerns you?
[13:52] I don't care if they gave it to me.
[13:56] Frankly, I'll say sure enough.
[14:07] I read it every morning.
[14:11] It's interesting.
[14:13] So about that, I'm sick of it.
[14:17] I don't have any more to say.
[14:20] Mr. President, you should maintain your position brutally now because it's now the future of the country that's involved.
[14:26] It doesn't make any sense.
[14:29] It is irrelevant what you do in the world.
[14:33] It is totally, quite honestly, my view is, I of course believe what you say, but it's irrelevant.
[14:41] Uh, 90% of this stuff they're talking about goes on all the time.
[14:46] We just, in this place, it was done in a stupid bureaucratic way.
[14:51] All the religions, good God, as soon as I had a chance to consecrate on her, I was like, what do I do?
[15:06] Cut off two arms.
[15:08] Who the hell wants to consecrate on her?
[15:10] Who has ever done that before?
[15:13] I fell off two arms, and they went after the body.
[15:19] When you consider the massive things you had done for the country, the treasonable actions that these people condoned, they are treasonable.
[15:34] Well, taking 10,000 government documents in the middle of the war, attacking the military, attacked having rights,
[15:41] I mean, on January 3rd, knowing I was going over for negotiations at Bassett's past, cut off a board, that is immoral.
[15:50] I wish you could have it made up in your .
[15:54] About four pages of that sort of thing, could you do that?
[16:01] Yes.
[16:01] I mean, just sort of not spelled out.
[16:06] These are things that hurt us.
[16:12] Well, you see, I plan to make a speech, but not now.
[16:16] I'll do it early in September, but I need Henry by, shall we say, within one week.
[16:20] Fair enough.
[16:21] Well, don't you worry.
[16:31] Oh, I don't know if I... Keep quiet.
[16:33] But, Mr. Benson, you see, I now will be conceded faithful this year.
[16:37] By the end of October, you're going to have a smash success in Europe.
[16:41] It's now going to be, if the Germans really deliver what they say, since we've got the French intelligence and British, the French cannot hold on.
[16:51] Cannot hold out.
[16:52] We've got the Dutch in the Dutch.
[16:53] There's no one that won't go along with it.
[17:00] And so you'll be coming back from Europe with a great success.
[17:03] This will, again, throw the pressure summit into a much better perspective.
[17:08] The first time he read that agreement for the prevention of nuclear war, he said, that's, he said, oh, that's just nothing.
[17:18] The next time he read it, he said, that's interesting.
[17:20] The third time he read it, he said, this may turn into a historic document.
[17:26] You and I all got this.
[17:27] Thank you.
[17:35] I was wondering, when you were checking on the stations, about running an ambassador to an article about the elegance of the audience.
[17:49] I think I've spoken to you about it.
[17:52] But the ones that I had in mind, you have to have a... Go ahead, okay, talk to me.
[17:55] ...for these state senators.
[17:57] Now, you could lose your place, but you could run in one for Iran, and a couple in the other.
[18:00] I think the three I would like to have are those that are going to change for me.
[18:07] run it.
[18:08] Well, and you have to have it poured in indeed.
[18:11] Well, the trouble is, Mr. President, if you invite ambassadors...
[18:14] So you can have the British?
[18:16] Yes.
[18:16] And you can have Cromer, right?
[18:19] Well, I don't think the Iranians would like it.
[18:23] I mean, the visitors certainly don't like it if other foreigners aren't invited.
[18:27] Even Cromer?
[18:29] No.
[18:29] Well, Cromer is out of the country for six weeks.
[18:34] I must be careful, but we invited out of form with the British that were very unhappy.
[18:40] Right.
[18:42] Let's get back.
[18:43] We shouldn't have the old farmer.
[18:48] Well, that was nice, but he was here.
[18:50] No, it was a nice picture.
[18:52] They didn't like it.
[18:54] Well, they won't dare try to teach us all this.
[18:58] Ah.
[18:59] Sure.
[19:00] I hope you feel better.
[19:01] Don't worry about that.
[19:04] I'll take it.
[19:04] No, as soon as I get the x-ray in my head.
[19:06] Could I check with you to find out?
[19:09] Ask for the x-ray.
[19:10] Can I check with Julie or somebody, what it shows?
[19:13] I'll call you.
[19:15] Would you?
[19:16] Thank you.
[19:16] It isn't serious.
[19:17] It's just what I'll find it's debilitating.
[19:20] It's just what it is.
[19:24] It's probably, it's probably, they think 97% probably.
[19:34] case of viral pneumonia, but mild so far.
[19:39] The difficulty with viral pneumonia hangs on for sometimes at least three days and sometimes a week.
[19:48] And if it hangs on, I may have to just go to bed for a week or three days, and I'm going to do it.
[19:53] I think you should go to bed, Mr. President, and frankly, I believe you would give the people a chance for some human expression towards you, which the media now prevent.
[20:04] So I do not think it would be at all unfortunate.
[20:06] Well, the other point is that we don't.
[20:08] What I would have to do, Henry, is to do like I did today, is to rush over to some symbolic meeting like the shield and the fire marshals.
[20:18] But I think you get... And I shouldn't do that.
[20:20] The danger is that you get worse.
[20:24] That I think it would be...
[20:25] I think it's really even from a beyond point of view that people need something that they can hold on to now.
[20:33] And with its daily beating, this would give them a chance for some humans.
[20:41] So my strong recommendation really is to call the parents and let Ziegler announce it.
[20:49] And, you know, we can announce meetings with you in your bedroom.
[20:53] Yes.
[20:54] Not a bad idea.