Nixon White House Tapes › Tape 9 › Conversation 009-103

Nixon phone call with Rogers on Supreme Court appointments and Richard H. Poff

Monday, September 20, 1971 · 7:51 PM–8:00 PM ET · White House Telephone · 9 min

ParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President); Rogers, William P.Conversation009-103 on Tape 9 (tape position 02:54:12–03:03:10)StartMonday, September 20, 1971 at 7:51 PMEndMonday, September 20, 1971 at 8:00 PMRecording deviceWhite House TelephoneSourceNixon Library record for 009-103 ↗ · National Archives Catalog, NAID 417189825 ↗

AI Summary

President Nixon and Secretary of State William P. Rogers discuss potential candidates for upcoming Supreme Court vacancies, focusing on the political challenges of securing confirmation for a Southerner and balancing ideological qualifications. They evaluate candidates including Richard H. Poff, Ed Walsh, and John N. Irwin, II, specifically weighing their age, law enforcement backgrounds, and stances on sensitive issues like busing and civil rights. Nixon tasks Rogers with privately vetting Walsh to ensure his judicial philosophy aligns with the administration’s views before proceeding.

Audio

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NARA Description

On September 20, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon and William P. Rogers talked on the telephone from 7:51 pm to 8:00 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 009-103 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Conversation No. 9-103

Date: September 20, 1971
Time: 7:51 pm - 8:00 pm
Location: White House Telephone

The President talked with William P. Rogers.

     Supreme Court appointments
          -Richard H. Poff
               -Age
               -John L. McClellan’s support
               -Rogers’ conversation with Warren E. Burger
               -American Bar
                     -Lawrence E. (“Ed”) Walsh's talk with John N. Mitchell
                           -Judge
               -Judiciary Committee
               -Practice at the bar
               -Rogers’ conversation with Walsh
                     -Catholic
          -Age consideration
          -Walsh
          -John M. Harlan announcement
               -Burger
          -Confirmation
          -Southerner
          -Harlan appointment

                -Conservative
          -Walsh
                -Age
          -John N. (“Jack”) Irwin, II
                -Age
          -Walsh
                -Law enforcement
          -Poff
          -Southerner
                -Lewis F. Powell, Jr.
          -Poff
                -Confirmation
                -Mitchell
                -Senate
                -House Judiciary Committee
                      -William M. McCulloch
          -Harlan successor
          -Walsh
          -William J. Brennen
          -Walsh compared with Poff
                -Law enforcement
                -Civil rights
                -Busing
                -Rogers’ talk with Walsh
                -Segregation compared to integration policy
                -Law enforcement
                      -Burger
                -Civil rights
                -Busing
                -Rogers’ schedule
                -Rogers’ talk with Burger

Transcript (AI-generated)

This transcript is incomplete. The transcription skipped stretches of speech — roughly 5 minutes of this recording (about 52% of it) is represented by only a few words. Listen to the audio rather than relying on the text below; a corrected transcript is queued.

This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Names and numbers are often wrong; speakers are not identified. Do not cite it as authoritative — verify against the audio and the finding aid.

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uh mainly because uh we think he would be pretty easy to confirm in terms of you go to the south it's very difficult
Both of them are too old.
Pop is only 43 or 45 or something like that.
And he's been apparently a very outstanding actor.
John McClough, very strong.
He does.
You know, I spent the weekend with him.
He does the wedding.
And I talked to him about Bob sometime before you mentioned it.
Yeah, I know.
And he seemed to be quite receptive to that.
And I think he's fine, as far as I know.
Now, the American Bar, Ed Walsh has been down talking to Mitch today, and the American Bar has decided he has to be a judge or have years of practice, which he has not had.
But after all, he's been on the Judiciary Committee for 12, 14 years, which is bad.
That's a hell of a lot of experience, you know.
Well, if I can make it, they can't say he's got to be a judge.
I don't think.
Well, either a judge or a practice at the bar, which you know what practice at the bar is, what the heck that is.
What did he practice?
I really don't know.
He practiced a while and then ran for Congress.
He did some, but no big practice.
Well, anyway, they're looking him over.
Now, let me ask you one other thing.
Can I help any with Ed Walsh?
Well, I think you could.
I think Walsh is with us on this.
He's got a cello.
Now, let me ask you one other thing.
This is a long shot.
Tell me, is Walsh a Catholic?
No, he's not a Catholic.
No, he's not a Catholic.
He's married to a Catholic.
I think it's what they call a left footer.
I'm not sure, but I know he's a part of it.
I do think we ought to appoint somebody that, for a parliament position, is also 50 to 55 years of age.
I mentioned to John, I said, you're not welcome.
He's an outstanding man.
He is a guy.
Should they announce the closing?
No, no, it didn't.
It's going to come in the next day or two.
Get them ready for the return.
Well, I think the most important thing is to get the next one confirmed.
There's got to be a Southerner, and there's got to be somebody who gets it confirmed.
Yeah.
But then we ought to follow.
What is Walsh's age?
I don't know.
I don't know.
I, you know, I have a great respect for him.
I know.
He was a great supporter of yours.
He would never complain.
He would be greatly admired, of course.
Yeah.
And he's a young engineering fellow.
He's a good doctor.
Well, yeah.
Yeah.
You know, another fellow that you might think about is Jack Irwin.
How old is he?
Probably a little bit younger.
I think that both of them are good.
I think I'd probably prefer Ed Walsh.
Yeah, Walsh is a better idea.
But they're both good.
Well, Ed is also a good and lost one.
He didn't get along with Warren Berger.
And he wasn't.
I just don't know enough about Bob to make a comment.
I think I respect Warren Berger's judgment about it.
Finding a southerner is damn hard.
Because we have very few people.
God, I wish Lewis Powell was about 10 years younger.
He'd be great.
But he is about 63.
No, we can't take that.
We can't take it from him like that.
You really have got to think about controlling that closely.
I think Puff is the logical one.
I think Puff is the firm one.
Both are birds from spawn.
I'm not sure.
Oh.
Has John gone over his back?
I'm very careful.
You'll be sure there's nothing there.
Okay.
We'll check that.
You know, my soul is a little harder, though, for the Senate to grasp.
And he's a, he's a, you know, my fellow is me, but I can tell that.
Yeah, he's, he's, he's frankly the best member of the House of Representatives.
Everybody, my car, his book, McCullough's book.
Everybody, he's a man.
He's a man.
I recommend it.
Of course, if you have a good opportunity now to take somebody, the next one, pilot of the test, is someone that maybe will sort of agree with you.
So it's not just one man, it's two, two men.
Right.
And if Walt fits that deal, I'm not sure if he would.
You know, they'll consider them both together.
They have to.
You know, he was in Dewey's office as a prosecutor.
And he's been very strong in law enforcement.
Yeah, well, you're a deputy.
Yeah, he was my deputy, and he was also the head of the crime commission in New York, law enforcement commission.
He feels very strongly about it.
I'll put that back.
He's a little bit more, you know, pro-civil rights, possibly, but not, I don't think he's a... You just don't want him to be for custody.
I don't think he is.
I'll talk to him if you want me to.
I know him well enough to...
to be sure he wouldn't.
Particularly, well, you know, he's a good personal friend of mine.
You might say, well, things I feel, I feel strongly on two subjects.
First, I don't want the guy to be a racist.
But I don't want a fellow who's going to go hog wild on, you know, like we've got things like the integration of separatists and the fact of segregation.
I mean, dynamite, not just for the country.
I mean, I think that the law of the bush would be tough.
I mean, I think Warren Berger is just great on that, and I think Ed would be.
But on the civil rights, I think he's saying things, too.
He can't go hog wild on buses.
Would you have a
private chat with him.
I've got to be in New York in the next couple of days to chat with him.
And I may chat with him.
Right.
And I want to indicate that we've talked a little.
Right.
You might say that's your idea.
Good.
Okay.
Bye.
Thank you.

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All 41 conversations from September 20, 1971 →

Cite this conversation

Conversation 009-103, September 20, 1971. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives (NAID 417189825). Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/009-103 (accessed November 2, 2026).