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Conversation 003-041

TapeTape 3StartThursday, May 13, 1971 at 9:35 AMEndThursday, May 13, 1971 at 9:35 AMTape start time00:47:40Tape end time00:54:05ParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President);  White House operator;  Rogers, William P.Recording deviceWhite House Telephone
AudioNARA Description

On May 13, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon, White House operator, and William P. Rogers talked on the telephone at 9:35 am. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 003-041 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid
Conversation No. 003-041

Date: May 13, 1971
Time: 9:35 am
Location: White House Telephone

The White House operator talked with the President.

     Call from William P. Rogers

Rogers talked with the President between 9:35 am and 9:41 am.

[See Conversation No. 498-002A]

     Mansfield Amendment
         -Rogers’ meeting with Michael J. (“Mike”) Mansfield
         -An afternoon meeting
         -Mansfield's position
               -Rogers’ call
         -Possible meeting of President, Rogers, and Mansfield
         -Mansfield's position
         -White House action

            -Possible meeting of President, Mansfield
            -Effect on United States [US] foreign policy
                 -Herbert Brownell
            -Rogers’ possible Congressional testimony
            -Possible hearings
            -Mansfield's position
                 -Lyndon B. Johnson and John F. Kennedy administrations
            -Possible meetings with President
            -Mansfield's position on other issues
                 -People's Republic of China [PRC]
            -Administration position
            -North Atlantic Treaty Organization [NATO], United States [US] foreign policy
            -Administration handling, Mansfield handling
                 -Democratic caucus meeting

     United States [US] foreign policy
          -North Atlantic Treaty Organization [NATO], Marshall plan

     Mansfield Amendment
         -Mansfield's position
         -1966 introduction
               -1966 Senate vote compared with possible 1971 vote
         -John C. Stennis
               -Rogers’ forthcoming meeting
               -Position
               -Rogers’ forthcoming meeting

     United States [US] foreign policy
          -Senate role in negotiations
                -Compared with Antiballistic Missile [ABM]
          -Union of Soviet Socialist Republics [USSR]
                -Mutual and Balanced Force Reductions [MBFR]
          -North Atlantic Treaty Organization [NATO]

            -Negotiations
                -Senate role

     Mansfield Amendment
         -Rogers’ possible meeting with Republican senators
               -Number
               -White House action
               -Henry A. Kissinger
         -A 4:30 meeting, May 13, 1971
               -Attendees
                    -Dean Rusk
                          -Location
                    -Dean G. Acheson
Transcript (AI-Generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.

Hello.
Mr. President, Secretary Barr is asking for you to take it now.
Sure.
Thank you.
Hello.
Hello, Mr. President.
Hi, Bill.
I'm Serge.
I want to talk to Mike Mansfield this morning.
Oh, fine.
You're coming to the meeting at 432, are you?
Yeah.
I just wonder, if it looks as if there's any hope of doing anything, I doubt it very much that he's committed on the phone.
He was sort of embarrassed about it and obviously didn't want to see me.
If it looked as if it would be useful at all, would you be willing to have him for breakfast some morning, maybe two of us?
Oh, sure, sure.
I'll tell you, the problem I think you've got with him, Bill, is that basically, as far as we're concerned, there just isn't any compromise on it.
We can't
can't and that's what he'll want to do well if you want to do anything you want to do that and we can't we can't go at this point with our own people you know now standing up but we can't do that on the other hand if he wants to
But he's going to be beaten, and this time, you see, we're really lining up all these people, and I hate to do it to him, but of course I will see him.
Of course I will see him.
Well, I don't want to die, but I just want to be sure if he's all right with you.
My...
My discussion will be as follows.
I'll say to him, Mike, this is going to be very detrimental to our foreign affairs all over the world.
I've got telegrams in this morning from all over the world.
It'll be destabilizing.
Is that true?
Sure.
Good.
It's nice that you can tell the truth.
Herb Brownell used to say that's an added advantage.
And say to him that obviously a matter of this gravity,
should be considered we should be able to testify and then i'm prepared to testify and come up in two three weeks and we'll have a full go-round on it uh but not to do it this way in other words i won't ask him to compromise and i'll just say this is the wrong way to do it on a matter of this gravity i don't know how he can and to have hearings you mean or something of that sort well he nobody wants hearings on it well god if you have hearings it's going to be
that's right that's right well then you see the other thing we have to realize is this is not a new position for him he used to take this position when johnson was here and kennedy was there he's always been for bringing home half the troops from europe so i think that's the real problem we've got i would i frankly think that i think it's good to see him and i think i would not i would not press too hard on it and figuring that
if we can just keep him, keep his criticism when, you know, he's been rather muted and decent in his criticism.
That's right.
On other issues, like about the only thing he supports us on is China because he wants to go.
That's... That's been pretty good.
No, no, no, but I mean... That's pretty good.
You personally do.
No, but I meant from the stance, that's what I meant.
Even though I meant he agrees with us on China, the other things he disagrees, but he's decent about it.
That's right.
He's the most decent guy up there, and therefore, I think the real thrust that you ought to take is that
I think I'd sort of say this.
Look, as he knows, the President feels very appreciative of the fact that despite differences, we've kept it on the right basis.
That in this case, you want to know, we've just got to fight for this because you're going to NATO.
We've got our whole foreign policy at stake.
It will not be personal.
We feel that we have to do it because it's a matter of the highest foreign policy deal, sort of along those lines, and then let him come to any conclusion he wants.
But I think he's got to know that he's in for a real fight on this because it will not be personal on our part, but we have to go all out.
I'm surprised he did it on a political basis, too.
He had a Democratic caucus on it.
Yeah, it's quite contrary to everything we've ever done.
The Democratic caucus, yeah, yeah.
After all, when you think of how very nice we were on the Marshall Plan and NATO and all that, hell, when we controlled the plague.
But all right, it's all right.
He's been all right.
I personally think this.
I think he's going to go on this in any event.
It's a matter of principle with him.
He believes it.
You see, the Mansfield Amendment...
came up, I remember even in 66, when I was out of office, he put up that damn amendment.
He didn't, he only got about, he always got 25 to 30 votes in the Senate.
And now he'll get about 38 to 40, maybe 44, but he'll lose.
Right.
Well, I may, I'm going to try to see Stennis too and some of the others.
Well, and with Stennis, I just think the main thing with him, Stennis is, of course, for it, but he's a compromiser.
And I'd simply say there just really isn't any way we can
And that this is a matter, basically, which you know very well, is it has to be negotiated with our allies and with our enemies.
We can't do it on the Senate floor.
And if there was, I mean, we say that about ABM, God, it's ten times as true here.
Well, not only that, Mr. President, but we're making progress with the Soviet Union.
They've agreed now to talk about mutual and balanced force.
Well, not only are we making progress with them, but I think we should also say...
say that in NATO we're making progress they're upgrading their forces but you know we're talking about our numbers but that but it's going to take a lot take some time but it's a matter here is one matter where we where our goal is the same but we simply have to negotiate with our allies and with our opponents and we can't have our
negotiating card taken away from us by the Senate.
I think I'll try at some time to get the Republican senators down here that are against us and talk to them.
I don't understand why they're doing this.
How many of them are there?
Quite a few.
Yeah, the 12, 12, 14.
Yeah, something like that.
I've got a list or something.
Well, we're going to work them over if we got to.
Well, I'll keep Henry advised of how... Well, 4.30 today, well, I'm just going to...
If we could get every former, you know, Secretary of State and so forth and so on, President to come up... Is Gene West coming?
I'm going to see whether he can come.
I think we're going to invite him if he can come.
He's in Georgia, of course.
Yeah.
He's an awful, awful nice guy.
Yeah.
Atchison will be here.
Okay.
I don't know if he's any help.
Well, on NATO, he'd be a help.
Okay.
Bye.
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