On July 20, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon and Charles W. Colson talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 6:19 pm and 6:41 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 006-163 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
Yeah.
Hello.
Yes, sir, Mr. President.
Well, I see Kennedy got smoked out.
Well, he sure surprised me.
You know what I think may have happened?
I think he polled.
No, I'll lay you money that he polled by telephone or something, and he might have found that...
There was strong support, or he may have talked to his people around and just sort of sensed the tide.
What's your guess?
I think we might have smoked him out, unfortunately.
I'm kind of sorry we did in a way, except it was a hell of a good statement.
No, no, that doesn't hurt us at all.
But what we did, we tipped off three columnists.
We know that Evans and Novak were calling his office yesterday.
We called at noon.
And his press secretary said, he has not issued a statement.
He is not going to issue a statement.
And you can put that down.
That's it.
And then at 2.30, he put it out.
Of course, it was an effusive statement.
Yeah, the alderman said it was almost sickening.
Well, it was.
Of all the years that I've watched the Kennedys in operation, I've never seen one like that.
Do you have it there?
Yes, I think I do, Mr. President.
Let me just
begin a life over here well i can tell i can tell you the news summary statement that you know that no no i didn't read it today what's that kind of the issue statement of according to the baby called it of the effusive praise for the president's initiative really he said is so here i have the actual statement i can reach it via uh...
I wish to add my own congratulations to the overwhelming approval that President Nixon has already received for the dramatic announcement of his plan to visit China.
Every president has immense potential for leadership in the nation's foreign affairs, but rarely, I think, has the action of any president so captured the imagination and supported the American people as President Nixon's magnificent gesture last week for the improvement of our relations with China.
Then he goes on, I don't share the views of some that the president's initiative is necessarily a step with obvious, immediate, and long-range domestic advantage.
Perhaps some advantage will materialize and perhaps not.
What is clear, however, is the great expectations that have already been raised by the announcement of the visit itself.
The hopes for peace now set in motion are as vast as the imagination of man.
We know that harmonious relations between America and China will have enormous benefit on all of our other vital foreign policy issues of our time, especially on issues like peace in Vietnam, stability in Asia, progress towards nuclear control and disarmament.
he just goes on it's uh... president nixon will carry the prayers of every citizen with him to peking and the cause of peace will be the richer it frankly doesn't even sound like it maybe he's trying to uh... no no no he's gone out so far here that uh... maybe he's trying to build it up so that it doesn't uh... uh... reach oh no no it's hard to figure out what is especially hard to figure is that uh... his office was
was fending off press queries.
We had someone calling them every twice a day, three times a day.
And they were extremely annoyed at the last call that we made, which was about noon, and just said, there will be no statement, period.
And we know that other columnists were calling.
And I think they finally decided that the thing wasn't going to backfire, that there were no negatives in it, and that you had really caught the public imagination in an extraordinary way.
and he just better get on board and not get left off.
I really think that's what's involved.
He sure fooled me because it's very unlike him to.
Now of course he came back this afternoon and gave a, Ed Brook told me this morning that he was giving a very damning speech on housing.
We hadn't done enough for public housing and that's all right.
So he's gonna let him yak all he wants about that That's right.
He's gonna come right back.
Yeah, it must feel pretty good It is about as high as I think I've ever heard as he will tell you he Advocated this to me when we were flying on the airplane one time Well, he also told me that when he met with you and Henry that had been some a
big discussion, that he kind of got the picture.
That's right.
That's right.
He was told.
He plans to give a... And tell him that when you call him back that I think that he can...
I want him to reveal that, with my permission, that when he was traveling with us in the campaign, we had a long talk on the plane one day, and he said that the most important single thing we could do in foreign policy was the China initiative.
Oh, that's good.
And tell him that I think it would be good if he said that, that he...
but he's planning early next week mr president to give it a year major foreign policy speech which is going to advertised advance and in which he's going to say that i've had some differences with the administration but i want to say whatever differences i have had i have not been elected total support and perhaps he hasn't come all the way on this so i'm working on perhaps announced that the uh... property opposition to the a p m this year you know he was one of the he's been one of the writers and maybe i'm fine right and that would
until so that the president can have a chance to negotiate.
That's right.
And it would give him some drama to the speech and some reason for the speech.
You can tell him that I think it would be helpful if he would say that very thing, that we talked on the plane and so forth.
I think that's a great... That's true, too, absolutely true.
That's a great thing for him to use because it also establishes the length of time that
that you've been involved in, that this has been going on.
Anything else new?
No, I'm just...
I got your memorandum on media.
You're absolutely right.
It's better to have a few on the right that are yelling.
Also, it'll help us from the foreign policy standpoint.
We need it with the Chinese to let them think that there's some fear of the right here, you see.
I think it helps us on all scores, and it certainly can't hurt us.
Your approval, I'm getting in the statements now from the veterans organizations supporting us,
They're almost a little too good.
But to have Meany out there, I think, has some very nice Machiavellian twist.
Right.
It's good.
moved by the way he held up his field people and uh... although kept about a third of the field poll was conducted after the gender that's only a third but well it's going to prevent him to do an interesting thing he's he's going to when he comes up with it uh... show the impact if it's favorable at which i'm sure positive it will be was going to show some up oh hell yes no question i don't know how much but it'll show some well i'm sure it will show up and then he's going to start at the end of next week a uh...
major field survey on you personally, on the China issue, on the trial heats, which from many standpoints will probably be an excellent time for us.
He's going to put them back in just as quickly as he can get them back into the... We can help fund that, you know, if you want.
I don't know whether it's necessary, but when I say...
I don't mean we, but through some source...
maybe through his company or something just just put in the money well we've been we've been helping him and he's uh he's agreeable to doing this he's all right did you happen to see milton friedman's uh newsweek columnist i heard it was good but i didn't see it no well it's it really is one of the best things written and since uh friedman is of course a darling for the conservatives and we need to do some uh
I know.
Romancing their... Yeah, well, we have a problem.
You know, all of our legislative leaders meeting me and they're all bitching about the economy.
They just, they're so negative, these guys.
You know, we presented the China thing.
Not one of those leaders said a word that was saying, well, gee, that was a good job.
Is that right?
Not one damn leader.
You mean our own leaders you're talking about?
Yes, sir.
These are Republican leaders.
You'd think they'd... Jesus.
...been a bunch of Democratic leaders.
They'd been jumping up and down saying, that's great, Mr. President, you know.
Well, our guys are kind of dead on their...
I'd let McGregor know that was a pretty sad, sad performance.
It's a shame.
They always feel that... Well, they always feel, well, I don't know.
I don't know.
They don't seem to be able to appreciate anything that's going well for them.
They're all just a bunch of goddamn deadasses.
It's really unbelievable.
It's a sad commentary because they should realize that they are writing right now one of the...
one of the most dramatic political waves.
I talked to a
Herb DeSimone, who's now an assistant secretary of transportation.
Damn good politician.
Oh, I know, I know.
He's from Rhode Island.
A nice fellow, Italian fellow.
Yes.
I remember when I was up there with him at Newport.
Oh, he's a tough politician, and one of the savviest I know.
I've worked with Herb since college, as a matter of fact.
What did he say?
Well, he said it's the most electric impact he's ever seen.
He said the only thing that he remembers that has created any kind of a comparable reaction was Ike's going to Korea, and he said it
He said that he traveled through New England this weekend.
Did he find reaction as he traveled?
He said the college boy came to take his bags at the airport and said, Gee, Mr. DeSimone, I didn't think much of the president, but that's a marvelous man you're working for.
And he said everywhere he went, people are convinced.
He said the dominant impression that he found was that people...
don't know what this means, but they know that you have a lot more things in the works and under control than they had thought.
And as a result, they think there are other things.
They also probably, the college kids, the young people, and this may help us a great deal with them, and you might ask Harris particularly to pull them, the young people think, well, by God, he's really for peace.
Well, that's right.
Herb made this point.
He spoke to a couple of college groups, or was with a couple of young groups, and he said it was just, they're completely turned on now, where before they were very cool, very disenchanted.
He said this has just caught them, and...
It's caught everybody.
He said that it was the only thing people wanted to talk about.
The only questions he got, the only conversation was open on this basis.
So it,
Yeah.
It's had a whale of an impact.
Well, it's probably had more than we realize, Chuck.
Who knows?
Who knows?
I think it has, Mr. President.
As we've talked about, I think it's going to rub off on other things.
I'm disappointed with the legislative leaders when they can't see it.
It eventually ought to affect the stock market.
I don't know.
But that's affected by other things.
Arthur Burns is... Well, I had two reports today from people who both said that...
that was strictly arthur burns that the thing would be would be just sailing if they weren't concerned that interest rates are going to rise it'll eventually reflect it though i'm confident people just feel better i think for a while at least but our legislative leaders chuck they've got to step up and say it it's our own people they good god the democrats saying it isn't enough our legislative leaders have got to step up it's really that was a shocking performance today i just henry and i and
And George Shultz and Erichman are saying, after we just shook our heads, they said, my God, they were negative, bitching about the economy and so forth.
Didn't say one word about this, you know.
I mean, isn't God almighty, I mean, there's not been an example of presidential leadership for years.
I mean, they ought to be proud.
They ought to be sticking their chests out.
They ought to be saying, we showed those bastards.
That's right.
I'd let a few of them know.
If I were you.
Well, I have a feeling, yes, I'll do that, Mr. President.
I have a feeling that we've been with some columnists just using this, just posing the question, when do you remember anything that has been as dramatic and inspirational as this?
Leadership by a president.
Everybody stops to thank him.
They say, well, you're right.
It was always reacting to the Berlin crisis.
sure react to cuba documentation there that this really you have to go back to ike's time and you almost have to go back to the to the korean trip to find something that that really caught the imagination and gave hope in the same way this has and i think if that starts getting printed and that starts getting talked about and one place you're going to see this show up i'm convinced is at the national committee meetings in denver this weekend why don't we get it why don't we get by god those
people, they ought to just be, to get all of them to talk positively, because Dole should exert more leadership in that respect.
Well, I've positively talked to Bob, and the thing that I want to do with, that I am doing with him, is sending out a whole packet of material, some stuff on the Democrats, that Kennedy poll, the Gallup poll, which shows that 70-odd percent of the people, the Democratic
County leaders expect either a close race or no better than a 50-50 chance of winning this.
Goddamn, our people ought to get
or to get charged.
Yeah, we're not that bad off.
We're damn well off.
And Gallup, of course, is playing a little game.
But I think Gallup, somewhere or other, I have a feeling, Chuck, that the Kennedy people are with him.
They were in 60, you know.
They got to him in 60.
Lou told me he's convinced he knows what Gallup has done.
Gallup hasn't.
Oh, did he?
Are you asking what he said?
Yeah, he said he studied his polls.
And he's absolutely positive.
He said his raw data...
he is convinced that his raw data and Gallup's are the same.
That he is not, Gallup is not factoring down adequately the 18- to 20-year-old vote and the black vote.
And he said this is the only way that, I mean, if you take raw data, just people's reaction, Kennedy comes a lot stronger.
But if you discount for the blacks that won't vote, for the young that won't register, and Lou said he knocks a quarter off immediately for that,
of the 18 to 21.
That makes you three or four points right there.
And he said that accounts for the difference.
That and the black will give you the difference.
And he confirms that Gallup is really kind of very hung up on the war.
Maybe the China thing will get to him.
Gallup is probably just Henry was telling me that in that connection that relates to Gallup too, he said that Hugh Seide told him that
the time-life editors were just beside themselves because they hate me so much.
They said, why did this son of a bitch have to do this?
Isn't that typical?
Well, they'll have to swallow hard and...
And that's true of the CBS crowd, the NBC crowd, ABC crowd, although I think you've probably helped with Frank Stanton.
If he gets a feeling we might win, he might switch that whole goddamn group.
Well, I sent a long memo to Bob of my meeting with Frank last week with some quotes in it that Bob might pass on to you.
It's amusing.
A very interesting thing has happened since.
CBS has quantitatively and qualitatively given us that
most coverage on uh... last night for example it was the lead was a fair uh... positive very positive on your briefing the uh... congressional isn't did cbs gave us four minutes last night is the lead and the other networks give us two minutes so you can see that uh...
Stanton has passed some orders.
That's right.
Well, he can do it.
And, oh, he did.
I used that same technique as I told you that you'd use with Goodman.
I said, I don't think you can do that.
He said, God damn right I'll do it.
That's right.
He just goaded him into it, so.
I think we may affect these guys.
They'll get a little bit, get their dander up and say, well, by God, we're going to run our networks.
That's right.
And also, the other thing is, these guys can't help but fear.
Here's the thing.
It's up to someone more than anything else.
you realize they can't help but fear that the China thing and probably the war thing may mean we'll be in.
And if we're in...
They're scared to death.
They're scared to death because they know we'll turn on them if we know they've tried to screw us.
Well, that, Mr. President, in my mind, is the most important psychology at the moment.
I think that... And I've read almost everything that I've been able to get my hands on on the China thing.
And throughout it,
There is always the threat of someone saying this, well, Mary McGorry, our great antagonist last night, was saying how this had enhanced you politically.
She said, oh, the old bitch.
Oh, I read the column and I got nervous because it was too nice.
But why'd she say it enhanced?
Because of the... Well, her column was very, very complimentary of you.
Extraordinarily so.
In the story last night.
and what a great initiative this was, and how you caught the imagination, and how this had changed your image in the eyes of the people.
As I say, it was too favorable.
I thought I was reading from the wrong script.
But that theme has been coming through an awful lot of the printed material on this, that this will ensure a second term for
President Nixon, you see that cropping up through the stories, and these people are... Don't you realize that the Chinese will probably have, Chuck, they're bound to have, oh, they've got to have some of the...
probably Mansfield, maybe Teddy and Muskie and the rest, they'll all visit China, too, so... Well, nobody can one-up the announcement last week.
The announcement was the thing, and everybody will think we opened the door for them.
Of course.
I'm not so worried about that.
I mean, Hoffman was concerned about the fact that maybe they'd go before we did, and I said, oh, don't worry about it.
Suppose they do.
Nobody goes like the president.
No.
There's no way they can...
The only thing they can do is appear to be
kind of petty, hopping on the bandwagon.
I mean, if candidates start to think it's fashionable to go to China, they're simply going to make themselves look bad.
It's like Muskie going to Moscow.
Sure, exactly.
And he came out of that with a black eye.
And these fellows would do the same thing.
I'd kind of like to see him go.
If anything went sour, you could always point a finger at too many Democratic candidates meddling in things they shouldn't meddle in.
Or if there were any kind of a problem, you could
sort of hang that out.
Well, anyway, let's keep them busy.
Oh, I think you've got them off balance, Mr. President.
It's really had more effect than we thought, hasn't it?
Yeah, I've had many sophisticated people on the Hill and off the Hill tell me that you've undermined the Dove movement.
That's just gone.
They have a hell of a time.
How can they say that I'm a warmonger?
This has really cut the ground.
I think we... Vietnam War thing, now, sure, we're doing our best, but what the hell?
And now we don't have to sell out so cheap.
That's right.
It's had a magnificent effect.
We're going to put our minds together to... At the staff meeting tomorrow, I mentioned to Haldeman, and he knows, but Erlichman probably was so outraged, he will do it, but
Just say, and it isn't Ed McGregor's fault, but just say, for Christ's sakes, can't... You know, I remember in the many years, the eight years that I was in cabinet meetings, and the cabinet's been splendid, incidentally, but in legislative leader meetings and everything else, and always...
You know, Eisenhower would come in on, I don't know, a pipsqueak little thing, and everybody you know would say, gee, that's great, Mr. President.
These bastards never have done a goddamn thing except whine and cry and bitch.
Now, believe me, for almost three years, and I think McGregor ought to know this, that the whole bunch, bitch, whine, cry, and never say...
They should have said, now they know that we've, I've known this for three months, taken all this heat, and what the hell do they do?
Just bitch.
And I think you ought to let them know that tomorrow.
Will you do that?
Hit them hard on it and say, now for Christ's sakes, what's the matter with them?
Get a column written on it.
We should, because we need to put a little bit of life into those guys.
They can help us if they'll get to it.
They ought to get off the defensive.
As Republicans, they're so damn used to it.
I know.
We ought to get out there.
The point is that we always have to go ask for their support and beg them and this and that.
But at the present time, we may not want to ask for their support.
They're not much of a help.
Well, let's see if we can't kick them in the fannies and get them going.
Okay.
Yes, sir.
Thank you.