Conversation 012-088

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Hello?

Yes, have you got that call?

Yes, sir.

Mr. President Nixon, sir.

Hello?

Mr. Prime Minister.

Good evening, how are you?

Very well, thank you.

Yes.

I regret to bother you this late in the evening, and...

But I have a matter to discuss that I think is very important, we believe.

And I have on the line with me my...

My State Department man, would you like to have him translate as we go along?

Mr. President of the Council, I have the pleasure of addressing you.

I am sorry that I have to disturb you so late at night, but we have something to discuss with you that we consider of great importance.

At this moment, I have on the line our interpreter from the State Department.

Well, Mr. President, I'm very glad to hear your voice, and I am more than happy to discuss this problem with you.

Thank you.

When I saw Foreign Minister Morrow, I talked with him with regard to the important question vote in the United Nations that will take place on Tuesday.

Mr. President, when I had my last visit with your Foreign Minister, I referred to the important question of the United Nations, in reference to which there will be a vote in that seat on Tuesday of next week.

Yes, Mr. Morrow referred to me.

Yes, Mr. Morrow did tell me that.

I realize that you feel that there may be some problem because

your government's previous statements on this vote.

However, I believe that it is completely consistent to take the position that we take, which is we support the admission of the People's Republic, but we oppose expelling the Republic of China

We believe that expelling a nation from the United Nations would be a very dangerous precedent and that it should be by two-thirds vote.

If, for example, it is decided that this can be done by simple majority vote, who knows?

Next time it will be Portugal or some other nation that some group of nations may be at odds with.

Mr. President, I would like to refer you to the following.

I am aware of the fact that, in your opinion, there could be some problems, especially with regard to the basis that has already been laid, that is, the principle based on the declarations by the Italian government regarding this voting, the previous declarations of last year, etc.

But, in my opinion, it would be entirely coherent to follow our position, that is, we will vote in support of the mission of the People's Republic of China

but contrary to the thesis of the expulsion of the Chinese Republic, since we believe that the expulsion from the United Nations of a member country could constitute a dangerous precedent and this action should be verified only based on a vote of two thirds, a decision of this magnitude in the middle of a simple majority could only

And in our country, I would say that the majority of our people

They would favor the admission of the People's Republic of Communist China.

They strongly oppose expelling Taiwan, and that is particularly true, I would say, among the very large Italian-American group in our country, who support the position that Taiwan should not be expelled.

So, in the United States, Mr. President, I should say that we observe that most of the American people, while they could be in favor of the mission of the People's Republic of China,

At the same time, it is very contrary to the thesis of the expulsion of Taiwan.

This is really the case in a special way among the American idols of our country, who support the position that the expulsion of Taiwan should not be produced.

And I feel, as I told the foreign minister, that I would very much hope that if your government could stand with us on this one question, the I.Q.

question, as it's called, the important question, that that will make the difference.

I think that Italy...

not only your vote is involved, but there are four or five other countries that I think will go the way you go.

So, Mr. President, as I mentioned with the Minister of Foreign Affairs, I would have great hope that if Italy voted with us on this important issue, this would really represent the difference, that is, this would incline the balance in a decisive way, since, depending on the way of voting of Italy, I think that in that way there would also be four or five other countries.

And so I wanted you to hear in my own voice, since we did have that very good meeting in Washington and also in Rome, I wanted you to hear in my own voice how strongly I felt on this issue.

And that's the reason I'm bothering you at this late evening.

So, Mr. President, I wanted to say directly with my own voice, especially after our pleasant and productive visits here in Washington DC and in Rome, exactly what my feelings were regarding this issue, and this is the only reason why I allowed myself to disturb you at this time.

It means, Mr. President,

I am grateful for this phone call, also because it gives me the opportunity to communicate some orientation, some feeling, some concern of the Italian government and of the Italian public opinion.

I would like to say

I would like to say...

In the sense that any procedural vote that could somehow prevent or delay the entry of China into the United Nations would not have found consent.

Our public opinion was oriented in this sense.

Mr. President, I would like to say that I've done nothing more, nothing more over the last 10 days, nothing over the last 10 days but to try to face and grapple with this particular problem.

The problem stems primarily from the fact that, based on our statements and declarations with regard to this issue last year, this brought about a mood among our population to the effect that any procedural vote

which would tend to impede or hinder the admission of the Chinese People's Republic into the United States would not be taken well.

This is just the way our public opinion has been oriented to this issue.

Now, it is true that procedurally the issues have changed, because the important issue is not so much about the entry

in China, in the United Nations, as for the expulsion of Taiwan.

However, in our recognition made to China last year, we have accepted the principle that the government of Beijing is the only representative of the Chinese people.

So much so that

Taiwan has withdrawn its ambassadors, the ambassador from Rome.

So today, to report the issue of the expulsion of Taiwan within the scope of the qualified majority,

for the expulsion of a country, faces this attitude, based on which we have recognized as the only government that of Beijing.

Mr. President, with regard to the procedural issues, it is true that the situation has changed to some degree, because the important question has to do not only with the admission of the Chinese People's Republic, but now it is linked to the expulsion of Taiwan.

However, Mr. President, in view of the fact that we extended diplomatic recognition to the People's Republic of China,

within the framework of this step that we took, we committed ourselves to the principle, we agreed to the principle that Peking was the only legal representative of the Chinese people.

And in fact, Taiwan at that point, upon our recognition, withdrew its ambassador from Rome.

And therefore, at this time, to bring back this issue of the expulsion of Taiwan

If Taiwan had recognized a different identity to itself,

If Taiwan had

recognized itself as something different from the the identity that it has assumed and not simply insisted on being recognized as the government of the chinese republic why then our task would be a lot easier from the political and the legal standpoint in italy

very contrasting public opinion currents on this subject.

The effort I am making is to avoid the vote against the important motion.

But I'm not sure I can get to the favorable vote.

And tomorrow I have the Council of Ministers in which this problem will be discussed and it will certainly be a very difficult Council of Ministers.

Now, in Italy, there are political, there are public opinion trends that are conflicting in nature with regard to this, so that my efforts, Mr. President, are directed toward trying to avoid having to vote against the important question.

Now, I'm not sure that I can get a vote in favor of it, but tomorrow we're going to discuss this issue, and it's going to be a very hotly discussed one in the Council of Ministers.

I can assure and tell the President that as far as I am concerned, I have worked these days for my personal conviction, to conciliate the different opinions and also to, in any case, once again give an attestation of our friendship towards the United States.

So my effort tomorrow will be to prevent a contrary vote.

On this court, Mr. President, I would like to assure you that as far as I am concerned, I have been devoting my best efforts to this particular issue based on my particular, my personal convictions to bring together the various opinions and the various viewpoints and bring about a decision that will be a true reflection of our friendship toward the United States.

My effort tomorrow will be in the direction of trying to avoid having to come up with a vote against the important question, and I do have some hopes of succeeding.

The Ambassador, Martin, spoke to me about this problem.

He also explained to me the President's personal concerns, as well as the general situation.

And, of course, I am fully aware of this, and that is why I am working in this direction.

I also should note, Mr. President, that Ambassador Martin has discussed this problem very thoroughly and at length with me, and has explained to me your concerns as well as the general concern that exists on this, and my response has invariably been that I am devoting my very best and concentrated efforts to this issue.

I want to say to the Prime Minister that I appreciate his difficult problem,

I also would emphasize that this vote, of course, will be watched in the whole world.

And I think it would be very unfortunate if the United States and Italy, the two countries that on all the issues of Europe and on most of the great issues in the world have stood together, it would be very unfortunate if we were to split

I would hope that in the consideration with his cabinet tomorrow that the Prime Minister, if possible, could help the United States on this vote.

We consider it very important that the President

not be established that by a simple majority, a country or government can be expelled from the United Nations.

It goes far beyond the China question.

It goes to the whole matter of expelling countries, and we think it should require a two-thirds vote.

That's why we think an aye vote on the important question is so important.

Thank you very much, Mr. Prime Minister.

I must really acknowledge and thank you for all your efforts regarding this problem.

I would also like to underline the fact that, in our opinion,

We know, in fact, that this vote will be observed closely by all the nations and all the peoples of the world.

It would be a very unhappy situation, in my opinion, if the United States and Italy, two nations that have always been supportive of the great issues of Europe and the world, were divided in this case.

So I hope, Mr. President, that you will succeed in the meeting of the Council of Ministers tomorrow, in the sense that you will be able to help us with this vote.

Because, in our opinion, the most important thing is not to establish the precedent for which it would be possible to expel a nation from the United Nations in the middle of a simple majority.

And so it is a problem that goes far beyond the question of China.

It really has to do with the question of the vast, very vast extent of the possibility of expelling the members of the United Nations.

And that's why we're so worried.

I'm sure, President, that as far as I'm concerned, it's possible because our position is as close as possible to that of the United States.

I wish to assure you, Mr. President, that I will do everything within my efforts to assure that our position is as close as possible to that of the United States.

On any score, at any rate, I do hope to avoid having to vote against the I.Q.

I look forward to seeing the Prime Minister again at some time, and I appreciate this chance to talk to him.

I also hope so, Mr. President, and I wish you every success.

Thank you very much.

Grazie mille.

Goodbye.