Nixon White House Tapes › Tape 14 › Conversation 014-085

Ehrlichman phone call on Welfare reform and Ronald Reagan

Friday, November 12, 1971 · 2:38 PM–11:59 PM ET · White House Telephone · 4 min

ParticipantsEhrlichman, John D.; White House operator; Ehrlichman, John D.Conversation014-085 on Tape 14 (tape position 02:57:42–03:01:42)StartFriday, November 12, 1971 at 2:38 PMEndFriday, November 12, 1971 at 11:59 PMRecording deviceWhite House TelephoneSourceNixon Library record for 014-085 ↗

AI Summary

John D. Ehrlichman and Attorney General John N. Mitchell discuss friction with Governor Ronald Reagan regarding welfare reform negotiations between his office and the Department of Health, Education and Welfare. Reagan had been complaining to Vice President Agnew about the perceived lack of progress and broken commitments, prompting concern within the administration. They agree that Mitchell should instruct Reagan to resolve the specific dispute over program slots directly with Secretary Elliot Richardson, avoiding further involvement of the President.

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Transcript (AI-generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Names and numbers are often wrong; speakers are not identified. Do not cite it as authoritative — verify against the audio and the finding aid.

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You have a call from the Attorney General?
Yes, sir.
Mr. Ehrlichman's on.
Would you put him right on, please?
Thank you.
Yes, it is.
Hello.
Hello, General.
Hey, John.
We got Reagan troubles again, coming out of HEW.
When I was out there the other night, he handed me up.
a flyer put out from whatever college Bull's Hall is at which Jack Veneman talked on the welfare reform politics and policy are mostly politics.
and he had a few other little goodies like that, and advised me that Veneman had cut off their program contrary to the understanding that they had reached when he was in San Clemente with the president.
No, no, no, no, no, no.
He has also called the vice president on this.
Uh-huh.
And what he's doing is negotiating with Elliott.
And they're dickering over what number of recipients should be involved in this experiment.
And it's a bargain process.
And there's a counteroffer outstanding, but the governor isn't playing fair because he keeps in-running Elliott all the time.
And so the vice president wrote a memo to the president on this.
And so I had Elliott also write a memo to the president.
And I talked to Elliott this morning.
And he has talked to the governor a couple of times about it since.
Since when?
Well, since Friday.
And they are continuing to negotiate.
And Elliott's present offer is 30,000 slots.
And that's five more than the president gave Nelson Rockefeller.
So I was in that conversation, and it's definitely consistent with the agreement at San Clemente.
All right.
What do we do to get him quieted down?
Well, I think about the only thing you can do is say that the bargaining is in Elliott's hands and that you understand that the outstanding offer now is 30,000 slots.
And that there wasn't any certain number set down by the president, but he was leaving it to the good offices of the governor and the secretary to work out.
And if they find that they just plain can't mutually agree, well, the president will have to get in it.
But he would expect that between the two of them, they're going to be able to come to an understanding.
When did Elliott, has Elliott talked to him since Tuesday?
He reported to me on this this morning, and I don't know when the last time he talked to him was.
But he talked to the Vice President on Friday, Reagan did.
I talked to Reagan a few minutes ago, but he didn't raise this subject with me.
He's got a flood that he's concerned about.
Well, then why don't I just talk to him and tell him I understand that...
Elliott is now in communication with him, which he wasn't before, and finally he was pitching about that.
Why don't you leave it to try and make a deal with Elliott, and if he finds that they're just absolutely hung up, then we won't have any alternative but to re-refer this thing, but we hope we can do it without having to take the President's time.
All righty.
Okay?
Good, sir.
Good.
All right.
John?
Yeah?
I've got a, you probably saw on the wire, is a communication from Seller.
about the FBI's investigation, and I'm afraid I'll have to answer it.
The party line over there is that who asked the FBI, has it been done?
Well, now, let me transfer you to Haldeman on that, because I'm not sure just what the intricacies of the party line may be on this.
All right, I'll tell you later.
Okay.
Yeah, thanks.

NARA Description

On November 12, 1971, John D. Ehrlichman, White House operator, John D. Ehrlichman talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 2:38 pm and 11:59 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 014-085 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Conversation No. 14-85

Date: November 12, 1971
Time: Unknown between 2:38 pm and 11:59 pm
Location: White House Telephone

John D. Ehrlichman talked with the White House operator.

     John N. Mitchell

Mitchell talked with Ehrlichman.
     Ronald W. Reagan
            -Department of Health, Education and Welfare [HEW]
                 -John G. Veneman's comments on welfare reform
            -Welfare reform

                -Call to Spiro T. Agnew
                -Negotiations with Elliot L. Richardson
                      -Number of slots
                            -Nelson A. Rockefeller
                      -Timing
                -Forthcoming conversation with Mitchell

     [Forename unknown] Seller
          -Communication with Mitchell
               -Federal Bureau of Investigation [FBI]
                    -H. R. (“Bob”) Haldeman

Also recorded on November 12, 1971

  • 617-012 2:26 PM · 1 hr 8 min — President Richard M. Nixon, George P. Shultz, Caspar W. ("Cap") Weinberger, Stephen B. Bull, Clark MacGregor, William E. Timmons, Ronald L. Ziegler, Michael J. ("Mike") Mansfield, Hugh Scott, Gerald R. Ford, Milton R. Young, Allen J. Ellender, George H. Mahon, Frank T. Bow, and unknown person(s) met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 2:26 pm and 3:36 pm.
  • 014-084 2:36 PM · 2 min — President Richard M. Nixon, White House operator, and John D. Ehrlichman talked on the telephone from 2:36 pm to 2:38 pm.
  • 297-040 2:36 PM · 5 min — President Richard M. Nixon and John D. Ehrlichman met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building from 2:36 pm to 2:38 pm.
  • 297-041 2:40 PM · 10 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Alexander P. Butterfield met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building from 2:40 pm to 2:41 pm.
  • 297-042 2:41 PM · 7 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Manolo Sanchez met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 2:41 pm and 3:55 pm.
  • 297-043 2:41 PM · 5 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Manolo Sanchez met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 2:41 pm and 3:55 pm.
  • 297-044 2:41 PM · 54 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Manolo Sanchez met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 2:41 pm and 3:55 pm.
  • 297-045 2:41 PM · 21 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Manolo Sanchez met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 2:41 pm and 3:55 pm.

All 93 conversations from November 12, 1971 →

Cite this conversation

Conversation 014-085, November 12, 1971. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives. Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/014-085 (accessed October 1, 2026).