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Conversation 038-015

TapeTape 38StartFriday, April 13, 1973 at 7:26 PMEndFriday, April 13, 1973 at 7:30 PMParticipantsEhrlichman, John D.;  Nixon, Richard M. (President)Recording deviceWhite House Telephone
AI Summary

John D. Ehrlichman and President Nixon consulted on strategies to manage the escalating Watergate scandal, specifically focusing on how to influence or delay upcoming grand jury testimony from E. Howard Hunt. They discussed potential maneuvers to deflect attention from Charles Colson and explored the possibility of persuading John N. Mitchell to take responsibility for the campaign's actions to shield the White House. The pair agreed to review a more comprehensive set of options regarding witness management and legal strategy during a follow-up meeting the next morning.

WatergateE. Howard HuntJohn N. MitchellCharles ColsonGrand Jury TestimonyWhite House Strategy
AudioNARA Description

On April 13, 1973, John D. Ehrlichman and President Richard M. Nixon talked on the telephone from 7:26 pm to 7:30 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 038-015 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid
Conversation No. 38-15

Date: April 13, 1973
Time: 7:26 pm -7:30 pm
Location: White House Telephone

John D. Ehrlichman talked with the President.

     Watergate
          -Information to John W. Dean III from U.S. Attorney
          -E. Howard Hunt, Jr.’s forthcoming testimony
                -Possible White House efforts concerning schedule
                -Charles W. Colson
          -Colson
                -James McCord, Jr.
                      -Hank Greenspun break-in
          -John N. Mitchell
                                             -12-

                   NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                     (rev. January-2011)

                                                            Conversation No. 38-15 (cont’d)

                 -Possible plea
                 -Possible testimony
                 -Possible meeting
                       -William P. Rogers
                       -Richard A. Moore
                       -Elliot L. Richardson
           -Possible testimony before grand jury
                 -G. Gordon Liddy, Hunt, and Jeb Stuart Magruder
                 -Effect on Ervin Committee
Transcript (AI-Generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.

Hello?
Mr. President, I have Mr. Ehrlichman asking.
All right.
Ready, sir?
Yes, sir.
Well, we've been chewing this thing over and chewing it over, and I can't say that we're to any conclusion.
We'd like a chance to go to dinner and talk about this, and we'll just mull it tonight and hit it.
We'll be in early in the morning and be ready to talk to you about 10, 30, or 11, I guess.
Okay.
There are all kinds of interesting possibilities here.
We've got some new input that will be coming in to John Dean tonight that we want to add to it.
With regard to the grandeur, his folks are in touch with the U.S. attorney tonight.
So we'll be at you in the morning.
Okay.
A couple of points to have in mind in your discussion is that you're basing part of this on the fact that
that Hunt is going to testify Monday at 2 o'clock, unless we do something that would force that calendar to change, and we've been working with some ideas about that.
What could you do on that, though, John?
Well, we could do several things to move that up.
If there were a more attractive witness or a more conclusive witness or something of that kind, or if we drew the U.S. attorney off to do something else, we're looking at several possibilities.
The thing about that that must, of course, concern Colson is that—I suppose he's working on that, too—is what Hunt will say with regard to him.
Right.
Right.
What does he say about that?
Well, he studiously avoided that.
He did?
Yeah.
The only thing that he had to say about his involvement was that Hank Greenspun thing, which came through McCord.
Unbelievable, that one.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The other thing that occurs is that we've got to put ourselves in the position of John Mitchell, and I think that if I were in his place, I mean, the insanity thing is sort of ridiculous, of course, but the more plausible thing is for Mitchell, when he's called or even voluntarily, he says, look, there's been too much stuff going on, or he says, look,
I didn't approve this, and all that sort of thing.
Nobody in the White House is involved.
He went forward, but I, as campaign manager, assume the responsibility.
And I really think that's...
They should do it in good grace.
They should do it in good grace and say, I just want you to know this.
That's the situation, and that's it.
If, on the other hand, he can stonewall it that way, and they're going to bring him down.
But the point is, who is going to talk to him?
Well, we're working on that, too.
We think Rogers is the best bet.
Bill Rogers?
Mm-hmm.
To talk to whom?
To Mitchell?
Yep.
Oh, Mitchell doesn't trust him at all.
I know.
I know he doesn't.
What would Rogers say to him?
Well, that's one thing we're working on.
It may not be a good idea, but we'll try and work it out.
No, sir.
No.
No.
It's got to be somebody prestigious.
Maybe it's Elliott.
I mean, we're going to come at you with a number of possibilities.
Right.
Right.
Right.
Well, you know, on the plus side with all this, all the problems and so forth, you know, in a sense, John, it's the best thing is to get the goddamn thing to break the boil.
Right there.
No question.
No question.
And I used to try to deal with this, and I think if Liddy is going to testify, if Honda's going to testify, and if Magruder's going to testify, that's it.
Sure.
That's the ballgame.
That's the game.
Yep.
And—
or screw the urban committee at least.
That's for sure.
That's part of the strategy here.
All right.
Well, we'll... All right, I'll see you tomorrow.
Get to the dentist.
Full rundown.
Right.
Bye.
Okay.
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