On May 8, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon and Ronald L. Ziegler talked on the telephone from 10:38 pm to 10:52 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 045-164 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
Hello?
Yes, sir.
Hi, Ron.
Anything further tonight?
No.
I think we're in about the same position we were earlier when I talked.
I've got a feeling that this thing's starting to sort itself out pretty well.
I think the sentiment is starting to build that this thing's getting out of hand.
running pretty much in the direction of almost the time, and we've got to pick the time right where we really go on the attack on this thing.
That's my feeling tonight.
I talked to Al after the thing tonight.
He agrees.
We've got to pick our time right, I think, but go on the attack in what way?
Well, on the attack, it just
You know, walking around like—I'm not referring to you.
I mean, it's like as if we were— Like we're guilty.
And we're not guilty.
And it's time that we stop approaching the thing like we are.
I'm not referring to you.
I'm referring to people in the administration and in the White House.
Well, I mentioned, too, that there's fellows like Egg and who've got to start stepping up now.
That's exactly right.
If Proxmire could walk on the television set, he'll see that tonight.
other people can.
But it's choosing the time and I'm getting more and more ready for it.
I've been thinking about this more tonight and we'll pick our time and I think in a very organized way.
But I have a feeling that the American people are starting almost on the verge of getting tired of all of this attack on the White House and on the presidency.
Well, you know, we have to realize that some of it's justified.
God damn it.
We should have moved sooner.
After the 21st, I should have probably kicked a few asses around and got somebody to get in Peterson even then, you know, and found out what the hell was going on.
But, you know, we didn't.
You know, I don't—I'm not too sure of that.
You know, after ten months or nine months of being misled, which you were, you know, you had to assess it and determine
I'll tell you, after tonight, I'm not the least bit concerned about Dean.
Not the least bit concerned about him.
Well, except for his papers and things.
Oh, I'm not worried about his papers at all.
A number of people have mentioned to me tonight
That comment that I suppose his lawyer made where he was worried about going to prison because he looked so young, that's going to be very harmful to him.
That particular comment.
Oh, yeah.
It means he would say and do anything because of fear of being molested if he goes to prison.
Yeah.
But these things are beginning to build, I think.
I think pretty well.
Yep.
Well, Hal told me that he has a pretty good guy, a love heart from the defense.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right.
I think he's probably the guy we need.
Yeah.
We'll get him over here.
We're getting to the point now where that's the type of mind we need.
Yeah.
Also, Chappy Rose is very strong.
Yeah.
Strong in his view.
What's he feel?
Just get, you know, start fighting him.
Well, his feel is, you know, let's hold them in place, look for the right moment, and then move in a very effective and very balanced and yet aggressive way.
Recognizing that you've got to move on the—you see on the Dean thing, which is basically his main thing, is the cover-up, you know, not the other, you know.
business of Hunt's business, you know, which you've got to give him credit.
He told me about it after he heard it from O'Brien.
But you can't be in a position where little guys like O'Brien and those people
were running around in fear of themselves and being told things that were presented to them by people who were using presidential authority when they didn't have it.
That's true.
Oh, like on clemency, Jesus Christ.
That's exactly right.
But also on the payment, though, you know, whether or not we should have said right there, well, no, there mustn't be any, even any further discussion of this and so forth.
We didn't say that.
No, but why should you at that point?
when you were not told about it before then.
Well, even then, no, you could say, now look, this crap has got to stop.
No, I don't believe so.
That's not the way I would react or any, I think you would react because you didn't, and that's not the way most people would react.
After ten months of a guy... Well, it's true.
I wanted to find out what in the hell, where it led.
That's exactly right.
And, uh, yeah.
Well, well,
I feel, quite frankly, Mr. President, I feel better tonight than I felt, you know, in a long time about all of this.
I feel the trend is starting to shift.
People are getting tired of all of this.
What makes you think that?
Well, I think Proxmire wasn't bellwether tonight, quite frankly.
He was great.
Proxmire was great tonight.
I think others are going to start coming along.
What we don't want to do is push it yet.
And at the right time here, we'll develop our strategy if we get some good minds in there.
And I think we're getting them to develop the strategy.
And we can go on the attack any time.
It's just choosing the right day.
We can go on the attack in the briefing any time.
Well, the briefing is one thing, but also somebody like Ike from the outside is— I'm not so sure Agnew is the right guy to talk.
Maybe.
Connolly.
Connolly, maybe.
Maybe not.
Maybe.
Maybe Tower.
Maybe it has to be from you.
I don't know.
Or right from the White House.
I don't know.
Well, we can assess that, but—
I don't think for me, certainly at this point.
No, no, I don't think so either.
If you think so, I'll do it.
No, I don't believe so.
No, sir.
So I've made my statement, and God damn it, I'm going to stick to it.
No, I don't think...
But when he attacks me, then somebody other than me, Rana, has got to be found to defend me.
That's the point.
Well, I agree.
And they'll be there.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
I think they're overplaying their hand on this.
And I think— In what way are they overplaying it?
Well, I think they're overplaying their hand because they're going too far on their charges and the innuendo about the White House, particularly the presidency.
And I think the best way to attack this is to let them go a few more days.
Let them go for a while here.
And people are going to respond against it.
And they'll do that on their own.
That's my sense of it.
And in my discussion with Al Denon, I think that's his sense of it, too.
And above all, the White House staff and the administration has to have confidence and faith in the thing.
That's right.
And there are a couple of people that have not shown that up to this point.
and at the appropriate time.
You mean like— Not in a vindictive way, but— Like whom?
Well, there are a couple of the cabinet secretaries who haven't handled themselves with great— You mean like transportation?
Absolutely.
I know that, but just let him—he's a pipsqueak.
Well, sure.
I'm not talking about revenge.
Who else?
Schultz?
No, Schultz has, I think, been— All right.
Seems it's been okay.
Any other one, though, that I should know about?
Well, that's the one that's on my mind tonight, particularly in relation to Bug Krogh.
Yes, I know.
But it's not a matter of, you know— No, pay no attention to it now.
No, no, no, that's right.
Tomorrow, Thursday, when I see them, I'm just going to be highly positive, and now let's shape up, fellas, let's go.
That's right.
We're on the right here, and we're not going to be able to swing terrorists down.
Well, I've never felt, quite frankly, Mr. President, I have never felt during this whole period more confident in what is right and what has to be done here.
And it's not a challenge anymore as to whether or not we—how we proceed.
It's just the right timing
and the right approach to it.
And not only the operational side, which we've discussed at length, but not letting these people move too close in and move out of bounds in how they deal with the presidency.
These people, meaning?
These people referring to the media?
Media, indeed.
Referring to Dean?
Referring to members of the Congress?
referring to both sides of the aisle in the Congress?
Yeah.
And who were the worst ones in the Congress?
Well, first, I don't know.
That's hard to assess at this point because none of them have really stood up except Proxmox at this point.
But we'll let them sort themselves out.
I really feel getting Richardson confirmed is very important.
Then we kind of refer some of these things to him.
That's right.
That's right.
And his special prosecutor.
And move in a measured way.
Also, it's about time maybe in four or five days that we begin to start leaking some things like you mentioned on the phone earlier.
Well, yes.
Maybe we leaked the entire investigating process you went through.
That's right.
In other words, sort of a white paper on it, so to speak.
That's right.
But do it in a way that we spell out from our side what process you went through and get that side moving.
That's right.
We have to choose our time.
But I feel that we should let them play their cards a little more, play their cards, play their cards, and then pick them up.
All right.
And I think they're beginning to overplay them.
That's my feeling.
You don't think that's wishful thinking?
No, I don't think it's wishful thinking.
I really don't.
All right.
All right.
Okay, thank you.
Okay, sir.