Conversation 078-002

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That's what I say first.

I just got back from South East Asia.

Ladies and gentlemen, let me begin this meeting by saying that the purpose is really, in a broad sense, educational as far as Secretary Richardson and Dr. Carlson vote on occasions, many occasions for that matter, when we have legislation.

or other actions affecting education have presented views to people around the state.

But they feel, and I think very broadly, that those views should be presented directly, I mean, so that I hear it directly from each of you, to the extent you want to.

Underline what you've already said, what your suggestions, your, you know, your

I think it's very important to see a place

a lot of the university presidents that we've met with, that is the University Association of Black College Presidents, and we want to know your college partners and their representatives.

But this really represents the people that are frankly out of the barricades, those that are out in the arena doing fighting, rather than those that are administered arrest and all those.

PTAs, parents, and so forth.

And so, even though I've been exposed to all the other kinds of news, they're now coming to me.

And we are all of us grateful for this opportunity to share your very, very good time and calendar.

And we agree with you that this is an occasion for the President of the United States to hear the most important people, the elected leaders of the various parts of the House of Education at elementary and secondary level in this land.

And that's the point that I was going to emphasize.

We had higher education, including universities and junior colleges.

There's a trial from about one to five.

We've been in that very hell.

But we have not had it where we've been kicked out of the secondary school.

That's why we want this to go ahead.

So I thought, Mr. President, it would be appropriate to agree happily to hear these leaders and to listen to their concerns, to listen to the way in which they counsel you, that you would just like to steam it around the table and I will try to direct traffic with you together.

And I have no particular sequence or order, but John Geisinger, are you in a position to speak as the president of the American Association of School Administrators, remembering

about 19,000 school executive officers.

Thank you, Executive Morland.

I'd be very happy to try to make this very brief because everybody wants to know.

Your organization is a private public school.

We are a public school.

Yes, sir.

Oh, yes, sir.

So our public school will be the voice here at the three-fifths of an hour public school night.

We have in our membership some university people, some boards of education, but primarily it's school administrators, superintendents of schools for the most part.

So I have to address myself to that clientele.

And we, too, are thankful to you for affording us this audience.

This is a very unusual opportunity for us to speak with you and voice some of our concerns.

And we represent, as Secretary Martin has said, the eight national institutions.

education in the United States, teachers and parents, board of education, school administrators.

We congratulate you on your leadership in foreign affairs, the economic problems of our country, the SpaceX formation,

and other associated problems that we've had during your trip to Alaska.

Although perhaps not your lack of food during that trip.

And your approaching trip to China and elsewhere.

You have traveled a great deal and made it into our association in the past year.

I guess I've traveled about 100,000 miles.

John and Maris just got back this morning from Moscow.

And we did get around a bit too.

We're concerned about the education of some 50 million children in the United States, and we speak, I speak at the moment, for the public school children of America.

We do have a representative, a 38-year-old representative, who brought it to the private and parochial schools.

Before we go to sleep, unless we forget, we would like to applaud your appointment of Secretary Richardson and your appointment of Commissioner Mark.

We were just so pleased and so happy.

We have such a feeling of confidence and pride in these two appointments.

And in particular, since we are interested in education, particularly the appointment of Commissioner Marlin, who has come through the ranks as a teacher and an administrator, and who is really one of us and can speak for us.

And we saw some of the features of your educational programs.

It's not in their total statement, but in general, and we mention such things as the National Institute of the Revenue Sharing and some things of that sort.

Others may be common ground.

And we request this conference in a hope of laying before you some of the critical problems of schools in America.

and we agree that there are serious problems, and reconciling some differences which may exist between some of our clientele and your office.

And we'd like to suggest some means of relief, among which perhaps is our desire that you lend your own prestige, Mr. President, that of your office, to the improvement of the image of education in the United States.

Through the public recognition of the many contributions that public schools have made, the preparation of anybody around the table here through the offices of public schools and so on, and by statements which you might use might be both expressing your confidence in public education and attesting to the tremendous contributions of education,

While it may be fashionable in some circles to decry the failures of America's public schools, it's less than reasonable to fail to recognize their many strengths and contributions to the American nation.

The vast majority of Americans listen with respect to the pronouncements of their presidents.

And any positive statements concerning public education would be helpful to all concerned, including the president, if I may say so.

Among the most severe and critical problems are those in the big cities.

As president of the American Association of School Administrators, I read most of what was done in some 20 cities in the latter part of August, asking them to document their problems and suggest methods of relieving them.

And I will submit to you, sir, the replies of these superintendents, and this will be further documented by Dr. Manchin, but they agree to these organizations.

I would point out also that suburbia is the trouble, although it's pointed out as the wealthy suburban area.

There are financial problems.

People are disenchanted.

with the direction of efforts to these cities, and they are disenchanted, too, with the implications of the recurring financial problems that they have.

And rural America has, of course, its own peculiar and different problems.

There are serious problems.

And we need your support, Mr. President.

The schools are in trouble financially, in very serious trouble, and these letters will document city by city from Philadelphia to San Francisco to Boston to the numerous places that have answered.

The priorities of education are not really very high in the 19th-century American people at the moment, which is very distressing.

It seems that nobody really seems to

care and be concerned.

The Gallup poll a month or two ago indicated education is about the 14th priority.

And yet, the children are going through our schools every day, and we're very much worried.

We feel we can help you, Mr. President.

We're available to be with you at any time you wish.

We're available to lend an input of our ideas and our suggestions.

Our officers will be glad to meet with you, any of our groups.

And meanwhile, we just, in closing, like to say that we are looking to Dr. Weiland as our spokesman.

We trust him, we're very, very proud of him.

And we would like you to hear constantly and frequently, we hope, sir, the voice of education as spoken by Dr. Walton.

We're very, very happy at this appointment.

We thank you for this audience.

Thank you, John.

Would you like me to continue to spread them around?

Yes, sir.

I guess what I'd like to do, my good friend Dave Sullivan next to me said, Dave, you want to be next?

He said he's willing, so Dave Sullivan may have the key.

Well, Mr. President, I don't know whether you're aware or not, but we opposed the appointment of Dr. Marlin very strongly.

He was suggestive and he even caused confirmation.

But I want to say this, that

Since he's been on the job, we've been able to get more input into what the Office of Education is doing than under any previous commissioner.

We've found it more accessible than any of the other fellows, and this is not to detract from them.

We got along with them well enough.

But it is a quality which we appreciate.

We're able to

call him on the phone and discuss problems with him.

And I think that's very important.

We don't expect the Commissioner of Education and President of the United States to agree with us all the time.

Our constituency is a little different perhaps.

We do want to be able to communicate, and we haven't been able to do that.

I don't want to also make extended remarks, except that I have one basic concern in my organization.

I think teachers throughout the United States have a basic concern.

about the underlying philosophy of the administration towards education.

We appreciate your concern for educational research, and we understand that the National Institute of Education now has a pretty good chance of being adopted if you initiated that effort.

In time, it probably will produce things which will improve the effectiveness of our schools.

But in the meantime, we think that we have an obligation to put into effect the best knowledge that we have.

And it's gonna cost us money.

And unless we're able to face up to that, accept that proposition, we're really not gonna get anywhere in education.

There's another thought I'd like to leave with you.

There's no easy answer in education.

We've been educating the, largely, the easy to educate.

And by easy to educate, I mean cheap to educate.

When we go to the other half of the population, the half that even by our standards is not being educated at the present time, it's going to cost more and more for child basis.

not just additional embossment, but on a per-child basis.

Because it's just the way it is that they hire to educate, require more educational service.

There may be ways of doing this more effectively than we're doing now.

I'm in favor of efficiency in education.

Even so, even with using the most efficient methods and latest devices, it's going to cost more and more.

Unless we're willing to grapple with that fact and accept it and try to do something about it, we're going to have the kind of social unrest that I think has characterized our age.

of people continually thrusting against the barriers of society to keep them from realizing their full potential.

Education is their only hope.

And unless we provide the kind of school system which will justify that hope, we can look forward to another age of perhaps even more serious social unrest.

That's the way I see it.

I very much appreciate your patience giving us the chance to express these views.

Thank you.

Good to have an administrator voice, a teacher voice up here, you know, current voice.

Good to have the president of the PTA action.

The CPA chairs the concerns of our professional friends about the need to reorder national priorities and get education higher on the list.

And we are making many efforts to try to help that along and welcome the support of your high office in this effort.

We equally recognize the fact that the point Mr.

Sellers has made about the added cost.

One added note is that as an organization, our components across the land have been watched over the spending of

school monies we're the best accountability people in fact we stimulate citizen watchfulness in the public schools which we will continue to be sure not in a heartening way but actually we consider this one of our responsibilities and also the responsibility to help educate the citizen

that these things do cost money and the citizens are going to help them out.

They'll pay for it and do this kind of education job as we move ahead.

It has been done in places we would like to do it on a national scale.

Let me ask a question.

Your point about the Gallup poll, I think I've stated, with regard to the lack of interest in education, right?

That might be, it might be due to the fact that

people just get a list of things and associations and it's way down the list.

We're getting to a more precise question about the PTA's membership.

How, is it growing, coming down?

Is parenting just big now, small?

Is that a hell of something?

Yes, well, it has been glinting for a number of reasons, whether you feel it or not.

This school district reorder made the same thing, which eliminated it.

Some at the present time, of course, with the problems of reorganizing southern schools, we have a temporary lag.

Our trend last year was, well, frankly, we didn't lose as many members as we budgeted to lose.

We have seen evidences now that many states are now at this point in the membership enrollment, which is just beginning.

way ahead of the year, of last year.

We feel that this is not Pollyanna speaking, that we really are on the upswing and the number of social forces that seems to be making the general public realize that they have a responsibility and we offer them the way.

But this blending membership is still 10 million people.

Well, Hawaii is a powerful organization in a great part.

Part of the reason, perhaps, for this group winning membership is the great competition amongst the groups of the instructors.

When I was going to school, we all know the PTA was perhaps one of the few three or four organizations that people belonged to.

Now they've got so many things to belong to that they don't.

The other point that I think on education, it may have gotten that kind of an answer, and John, you know, we had a domestic council for this too, which came out quite differently.

the way they've done it is because of the money.

Isn't it possibly true that when you ask the question in a way that they think, well, if you're for education, you're gonna raise your property taxes and the rest, you get an easy answer.

If you act, if you say that you want more for education as compared with more for, shall we say,

There are two ways of getting at this business priority.

One is, what are the pressing problems in the nation?

And you've got a certain hierarchy.

Then when you ask, what are the pressing problems for your family?

You've got an entirely different hierarchy.

We ask the question, and it has to counsel for both ways.

When you put it in terms of the nation, everybody, of course, puts themselves in the position of the president and says, well, they're not much Vietnam.

It has to do with China and all the rest.

But if you say, now, what is the pressing problem of your family?

They're not going to think of the federal budget.

They're going to think of the family budget.

They're going to think of the kids.

Isn't that what you got out of this?

And it's kind of a different group of folks.

Education is about, wasn't it Sanford?

It was third.

It was third in that hierarchy.

And all the economy.

And all the economy was third.

So I'm just going to let the section tell us, and then education.

But very often, I think that the problem is not as difficult as it seems.

that it's very much tied into the finance problem.

The property tax report is a very real one.

You might have very bold shows.

I think that the poll, which was dated June 16th, announced June 16th in the New York Times, asked the question the first way, what in your view are the priorities for the country, right?

And the Vietnam, drugs, economy, and all these kinds of things.

Eight, nine, eight, and 14, and then just what they have them think of it, or what they have them think of it.

Sure.

I'd like to introduce now, Mr. President, Jim Rowland, who is the president of the State School Swords Association.

I might add, almost everybody at this table except me is the president of something.

I guess you get to resign as various presidents.

But Jim Rowland brings to this table the wisdom that you should hear, Mr. President.

Mr. President, I'm pleased to even address the president to say nothing about the purpose for which we come here.

We want to commend you on having given us the opportunity to share that knowledge with you.

And on behalf of the National State Boards of Education, which is not a numbers alphabet, but represents the policy making

boards of education of the states, the various states and territories of the United States, which if we all came together at any one time would not be more than 500 people.

But these are people who have much to say as to what goes on in the various states and so far as programs of education consist.

We would like to commend you on the several matters that are now before the Congress, which I understand that this is to represent a part of the education program, because we believe that they will aid in the long run the development of education programs in the various states.

We think that money should come into the state, ought to come into the state, handled by the organizations that are now there instead of creating new hierarchies to handle a second segment of education.

We suggest that whatever the agency that is downhanding education money, that it's offered to have the fellow money offered to travel through that agency in order to strengthen what is already there.

We would also suggest that, as a court of campuses,

that there is no question that education cannot prosper unless more money is found somewhere.

I believe that education locally is in trouble because the local taxpayer paying directly locally is probably taxed as heavily as he is willing to bear.

And we believe that probably some programs should be designed on a federal level where they have the access to the programs of taxation in a way a little different to what we have on a local level.

Offer somehow to provide a larger amount of money on some basis so that it fits back in to the development of quality programs on a local level.

Now in relation to that, I just want to call your attention to something that's already been alluded to, which has to do with really the programs and disadvantages of things like the milk programs, other lunch programs, and so forth.

We'd encourage that kind of thing because we believe that we're going to develop the personalities of people who otherwise wouldn't get developed unless they get some sort of assistance.

which we see as being possible through funds coming from the federal level to aid the men.

But we do believe that a point of emphasis might very well be to see what can be done for those couple of groups that I've mentioned, and any other such groups, is that we certainly are happy to come and share a few moments of views with you, and folks that may be here, and that you are here, that you get to as well.

that more programs like those several that were not mentioned in the amendment, you know them better than I, that more programs will develop which in the end will stem it down to the speech of your great United States.

Thank you, Jim.

I'm Don Morrison.

I'm the president of the EPA.

Just returned last night from Moscow, which is great.

Yes, I was a little sleepy.

Thank you.

See you next time.

No problem.

Perhaps, Mr. President, I could start out explaining the spirituality on integration as I have experienced it.

The members of our organization over the past six or eight years have spent a substantial amount of their budget

achieving integrated professional organizations in the states where there previously have been black and white organizations.

We're aiming to achieve that in all the two states, and we were forced to disaffiliate some of our members in those two states because they would not support this program.

But I say this because this reflects the teacher's attitude on all matters that relate to an integrated school program.

They're proud of the fact that they're the only national professional organization, to my knowledge, that has achieved this type.

The lawyers, the doctors, even the ministers have not achieved this on a national level, I think.

It's true of a banker, it's true.

I know this side of the city is a black group, so I remember meeting with the black lawyers, meeting with the black newspaper reporters, meeting with the black bankers, meeting with the black doctors.

I remember we had the black doctors, and I've met with every one of these groups.

And so you're exactly right on this point.

I don't think you could gather black group of teachers to come separate from the president.

We've never had a request.

Secondly, I would just like to comment on the tax situation, perhaps in a little different way.

I think it is tragic in this country when we force a person on a fixed income to take out his frustration on taxes against schools.

When a grandfather has to cast a vote against the school budget in order to maintain the home that he's in because of fixed income.

And I think

Many votes against education are really not against education, but against the taxes at the local level that Jim Rohn was talking about.

And it seems to me that one of the big challenges, in other words, the part that the Justice and Investing Council, Mr. Oates, is in charge of the study, is this fundamental.

The problem with education, public education, particularly elementary and primary at the present time,

is that the major source of revenue is the property tax.

The difficulty with the property tax, it is not an indirect tax.

It's like an income tax where they take it out rather painlessly.

Twice a year, that bill comes in.

When they add to that property tax, they think, what is that money going for?

And the school becomes the donor.

So actually, the purchase that wasn't too high, he delighted to pay it.

He likes to have a nice school.

But if it comes down to the point where he can't balance his budget, he's going to blame himself.

I mean, he wouldn't care what it was.

If the property tax were being used as the primary way for hospitals, he would vote against hospitals.

I mean, he would vote against living.

Isn't that what our study shows in New York?

It's going to bring us all the answers.

The problem is, we've also studied this, and the disturbing thing is that at the local level, see what you're talking about now, but with the Congress, when the Congress passed a billion and a half years, or the past four billion and so forth,

Getting the Congress to act is not nearly as difficult as it is to get your local people to vote those property taxes.

And that is why we have to consider, as we look at the needs of education,

whether there is a way to find a source of revenue different from the property tax, right?

I mean, is that what you're looking into?

We're starting to talk into a wide variety of other sources.

You know, it's nice to ask, excuse me, to start on, and while we're on it, there are at least two other seriously defective features of the property tax.

It is the most progressive form of taxation.

Studies show that it bears more heavily, proportionally, on the poor.

As you go down the income scale, a proportionally higher share of the income is devoted to the property tax, etc.

The greatest needs of education are by and large in the communities where the per capita taxation is lowest.

So that in dealing with the problem of those, that half of the children who need the most intensive efforts, they tend to be found in the communities that are also at least capable of meeting those needs.

I'm sure that all of my generation will remember we all heard the most regressive tax, the sales tax, and because it's good, you know, it applies, it has to stretch the income tax.

But the interesting point about the property tax is that it's far more than that.

Not only the reason he mentions that it hits a larger proportion, for example, when they're alleged to go for that tax.

The other thing is you go up an income, you write off your tax, you deduct it.

Now as far as the individual who takes the standard deduction is concerned, it doesn't make any difference.

And the whole tax system, our income tax system, also helps to make us a double play to make the property that's more aggressive than the poor people.

So we're, having made all those points, let me say, I don't want to suggest we've got an answer to us, come on, but we are looking.

Because I think fundamentally, in terms of education,

And I guess Dr. Marlowe would agree.

Every time you come, you say we need more money, right?

In every one of the programs, you may say that there are more money needed.

And the real problem is, where are we going to get it?

And the question is, well, let's get it out of the federal government.

That's one possibility.

But when you come down to this property tax at the local level, unless you get at that fundamental problem, we're not going to get it, in my opinion.

once you get at it, some sort of reform there.

Now let me say that in that it's a package.

As I'm sure you know, that revenue there, looking to the future, will have enormous effect on the system.

Because as the local communities, the states, and so forth, get more sources of money from the federal government and so forth, thereby they can use it any way they want.

And they want to put it in education.

I'll be very brief.

Related to this, I think, is the money of a couple million teachers, which if you figure local, state, and national dues, $150 million a year is spent by teachers

And they're forcing the position of spending a substantial amount on this just trying to maintain the support, the financial support of education at all levels, at the local and the state.

Now these teachers are certainly concerned about getting into the improvement of instruction, but their energy is taken up by being disciplined into this constant battle to maintain the funds, whether that is the local school board or state legislature or the National Congress.

So I would see this extra reward, at least I would be idealistically seeing that if we could firm up the financial foundation for education, the teachers would be able to use their money in a way that would help children greatly more than they do now.

You mean teachers serve by the dues that the teachers spend each year?

It owns $150 million a year.

If you take the local state and national resources and the $150 million that you lose, and you say, of course, a great proportion of that is for the purpose of supporting the school system, it has to go into just supporting the financial support of the school system, the financial support.

Yeah, in other words, fighting the battles for the moms and so forth.

And this is a ridiculous point.

Teachers have to...

$150 million a year.

Now that's outside of what David's organization spends.

I haven't added his money.

David, you know about $150 million.

Now, of course, that goes to, if you have an organization or anything that's going to spend on them, you stop them.

Let's say half of that goes for the purpose of simply getting the organization to support it financially.

That's not very interesting.

Related to finance also, I feel that this nation for a century has been able to sit on what we would call the C2 of business.

I think in the past states have been able to identify their goals and objectives in education, and that pretty substantially was able to meet both the national goals in education,

And I think about this period of time, and when we call for a full one-third partnership with the federal government, we're not only talking about one-third share in access to education, but we think that there should be a full share in the role of goal-setting, decision-making, and education.

Now, I know how psyched the American people are on a federal role in education, but I think there hasn't been a shift there.

I think they have recognized that there are national problems and goals in this country that need attention.

And I think the challenge is to come up with a decision-making role for the federal government

that is compatible with the kind of decisions that must be made at the local and state level.

It's a very dramatic statement for NEA to be making, Mr. President, and it's an important one for all of us here.

It's a very significant, historic kind of benchmark.

In other words, the participation of the existing web of counselors, apparently with approval, is a willingness in the teacher profession and in education

All centralness in terms of priorities to grow out of the administration.

Is that right for translation?

I think it's quite a place to shift because you see the mood forever in our history has been we want no interference from the feds.

interference means control, and control means subordination with the local power and so on.

What Don, I think, is saying, and saying wisely, is that there is a, the tide may be changing a little bit on that to the extent that this country can afford to reinvest a deal at every crossroads all over the land in the kind of central messages and greater efficiency of delivery.

When the goals are clearly spelled out, I think they're going to be acceptable.

But I think it must be a full role with one other department, yes.

I would want to continue.

I don't want to continue with someone else's.

I would like to say that I find this unrelated too.

less fear of the federal government and realizing the problems of defying local solutions and acquiring a core and a vector.

Well, if you wanted to, Mr. President, if you wanted to raise Wade's bloody spear on this issue, you'd talk about control.

If you're talking about improving the quality of education, you talk about standards.

And we also have this fundamental fact that with all the problems that we needless to say don't need to, we shouldn't try to decide that today with all the others that we have, but all the problems we have with regard to anything to do with school systems.

We have to recognize that the monumental progress that has been made in that respect, the fact that it has been very difficult for the South, and there are still some problem areas, but we can just stop and think of the fact that looking at the South today, that 38%, and I think it's between 38% and 40% of all

black children in the south go to majority white schools, whereas only 28% of the black children go to majority white schools.

Something has happened there now that much of the opposition, much of the opposition, just straight-up opposition to the federal role

whereas it was not admitted what really had to do with that promise.

As that problem now, even though many don't agree with what the courts have done and so forth, as that problem now moves towards some acceptance, then it means that if people see

the role of the federal government being in other areas that have to do with, frankly, rather than this, I think that the opposition comes down.

Would you not agree that that's part of the thing?

I do agree, sir.

And the track record in the last two years has been significant in this respect.

Let me turn to, can we finish now?

Yes, I, thank you.

Joe Manch, Mr. President, Dr. Manch is...

President of the Great Cities Research Council, which means that he has the 22 largest cities in terms of their boards of education and their school administration.

Joe.

Mr. President.

It's a great privilege to be here, to participate in this discussion, and I want to, as my brief vision for the great cities, not only for you, but the city of Portland, for this meeting having been set up.

This is a great opportunity, and I don't want to muck it.

As a matter of fact, I find that many of the things I had planned to say have been said, so I'll try to save time by commenting very quickly on those.

matters as they go along, but I want to tell you, Mr. President, one time, what I'm sure you know, that the 22 largest cities of this country are in very serious trouble in terms of many things, finances, the schools, the vision of equal educational opportunities, social unrest, racial and cultural polarization, whatever you want to call it.

As far as financing is concerned, I recall that at our meeting,

Just this last spring in San Francisco, all that we have in general, in many times, most of the education will make sure we want to turn it that way.

But most of the people want to talk about what they're going to do about financing the schools for the next year or two.

And it doesn't matter whether the school system is fiscally independent or it's fiscally independent, whether it's fiscally independent or whether it's fiscally independent or whether it's fiscally independent or whether it's fiscally independent or whether it's fiscally independent or whether it's fiscally independent or

As a matter of fact, it's interesting to look at the model of democracy in New York City, which is not taxable, you see.

I've had a discussion on television the other night with Mayor White of Boston, the mayor of New York City, and others.

We're having problems for that.

We don't have a basis for raising the money that we need, and we need a great deal.

I have, I tell you, Mr. President, Mr. President, I say that with some pride, but I say that for a reason.

I've been there over a period of years and I've seen some changes in the way people feel, their attitudes and so on.

We used to have, for example, very important people who would come to budget hearings before the mayor and the common council.

We've had an out-migration of large and white men last year from the cities.

They're out in the suburbs now.

We've had a new migration of poor, largely black people who haven't had

the background generally to come forward.

It is developing, but we don't have that kind of support, vocal support.

We do get the PTA groups and others, but we've lost a lot of our people who have gone out of the city and we're dealing with the poor, the disadvantaged, the handicapped to a very, very large extent.

Just a few years ago, the percentage of minority group children in our schools was about 25%, that's 41%.

Now, if you remember, there was a statement that you were telling me to quote, an article that you wrote, which I said, that if the present trend continues, and that was several years ago, it will not be possible for us in the large cities to deal with these problems fairly, in terms of people and educational opportunity.

What's fair about two children, one living, one house inside the city line of Butler having $950 spent on his education, and the child living just one house on the other side of the city line of Butler, the wealthy suburb, having $1,200 or $1,200 or in some cases $2,000 spent on his education in some communities, assuming that the dollar will buy in one community what it will buy in the community next door.

It's not fair.

I would never say that money is the total answer.

You can't guarantee this will send you money.

You can't do it without it either.

We're in competition with teachers.

We negotiate with teacher groups what to do and what we didn't make sure is done, and we have a problem.

However, I think the answer has to be in my opinion, in terms of my experience,

a statewide approach that is in the funding of education.

I've made the statement several times over 38 years now that it's becoming a prominence now.

I don't think we can guarantee equal educational opportunity

unless we do it at least on a state basis in terms of fair performance.

I was asked the other day, after a statement was issued by another superintendent, what I thought about the nationalization of education.

And while I was speaking to Mr. President of this group, as well as the Super-Decimal R.C., I said I would prefer not to have nationalization.

I would prefer to have help from agencies of the federal government, which went to funders of the state's equal distribution, regarding the needs of different parts of the country and so on.

I think that the lack of interest in education is a great detail.

I would say, in conclusion, again, that we appreciate this opportunity.

Mr. President, what we need more than anything else is your encouragement.

We look with great favor, certainly I do, and our organization does, on the proposals you have made up to this time.

We hope you can help carry those two events through Congress.

We need someone to set your voice to support us in what we're trying to do with children, for children.

Thank you, Joe.

Ken Brimaster, president of the state, not the state, the Total National School Board Association, representing about 19,000 boards of education in the country.

campus rather than the state school.

That's right.

That's the difference, I'm sure.

The junior board is the whole state board.

Have you said that anybody who

who runs for a school board in Wisconsin in labor of love.

Thank you.

I admire you.

Go ahead.

Mr. President, those are the things that no people do to us.

I'm going to see some real exciting elections when you go through.

Of course, you and Randy have been pretty much of a fool not to come to a group like that.

Somebody has to do it.

It is a labor of love, I'm sure, Mr. President.

First I want to acknowledge the University of Green Bay for the grant consolidation and simplification.

Obviously, this is real great from the national level.

It provides a saving, but even beyond that, it provides a tremendous saving for us at the local educational level.

Speaking of educational, a special resident sharing can.

I will.

I mean, is that what you're thinking?

Yes, sir.

Right, sir.

The large majority of our school board members, of course, are elected just as you are.

And we're charged with the responsibility for public education.

And we're ready to take just as much credit as we want to take in for public education.

And we believe this is a very successful program.

But we also are the people that take all the criticism.

As you said, Mr. President, at the very outset, we are in the arena.

We get the brickbats, and we take them, and we expect that that's what we're paid for.

We're paid in general nothing, but we take these brickbats and try to fend them off.

I would have to also tell you, too, that although

I represent National School Works Association, which would be elementary and secondary education.

We do have a division of community colleges, and we're working hard with them.

I just speak for them, and I will speak before them in Denver this evening.

As you might know exactly who we are, we're 84,000 members.

that we represent 95% of all public school children in the United States.

The fiscal duties of our board members, of course, include the payment of salaries to 2 million teachers and to some 3 million others, administrators, transportation people, maintenance people, and so forth.

So that being the case, we do employ directly some 7% of the workforce of this country.

The annual expenditure, which I'm sure you're familiar with,

I repeat, it is in excess of 42 billions of dollars per year.

Schools are a big business in most communities.

the most important use of funds that I believe you can find.

The decisions of our constituency, of course, definitely affect education, but I would call to your mind that they certainly do affect the economy of the country, and they do affect improvement of our country.

We are concerned about, as school board people, about one particular problem.

We feel that there's not a practice of excluding school board into decision making processes at a national level.

I think that we'll quickly jump over that by asking that as you come up with a commission that will involve school affairs, education in any way, shape, or manner, we'd appreciate giving you people from our side of the fence.

I believe we would have good input.

We would have a way of

giving you the pulse of the public at the local level.

Our school board members, our housewives, businessmen, doctors, lawyers, full cross-section.

We have people in the highest position in business in this country that have a background in school boards.

So we can give you a real cross-section, and I feel that

the federal government should consult with these citizen leaders in education as we go ahead.

I want to applaud you too, Mr. President, for trying to change the method of intergovernmental finance through a general revenue sharing concept.

We're very concerned.

We're dismayed, of course, that the administration's revenue sharing bill at the moment seems to exclude the fiscally independent school districts in the allocation of funds.

When the pressure is so heavy on the realty tax, we do feel that we should have some help in taking that pressure off.

I won't talk more about realty tax because I think we've had enough discussion of it right here.

This is the spot where the local school board member

has to take the abuse because he has to level with the people and draw money out of their pocket.

And as the cost is going up for education, and it has gone up for many reasons, and one of them, of course, is the considerable increase in enrollment

per year, 3%, sometimes 4% per year, but even more important than that, we have a higher holding power, and with this higher holding power, somebody else will grow ahead.

You're holding some of the people that can be educated, but they can't be educated quite as easily and economically as some of those that you're educating.

So we strongly support the philosophy of the California Supreme Court and their recent decision.

We believe the local property tax is no longer an absolute means of supporting the education of the court decision.

In spite of the fact, of course, that the property tax has been our main bulwark with financial support.

We're not ready to throw that away until we have something quite valid.

We see educational professional revenue sharing and general revenue sharing pretty much as a single package.

One to ease the local administrative function and the other to provide the national and needed financial reform.

On the other hand, it's going to be difficult for us to come out strongly in support of revenue sharing unless we can see where it's going to give us help at the local level.

I think possibly I'll close with only just one other thing.

I feel that you're sincerely interested in helping us in an area that we need very great help.

And I feel that a climate for education

improvement is great.

We in education have brought about a considerable amount of reform.

We should spend more money on research.

We should do a better job than we are doing.

But I'm here to challenge the statement that comes up quite often that money is spent poorly at the local level.

No place but at a local level is money questioned yearly at an annual budget time.

And if you relate back to the time that you were more closely connected to the local budget, things aren't very much different except that they're a little bit broader.

Thank you very, very much for

listening to us, we need your help.

And we're here, ready and anxious and willing to give you all the help you can.

Thank you, Captain.

Father Coog is the head of the Catholic Education Association and he brings the voice of the non-public sector quite apart from the social schools alone to this table with the press.

Thank you, Dr. Martin.

I was going to stress that because it's rather important.

I'm trying not to reflect only the Catholic school point of view.

Before I make my brief remarks, I want to thank you sincerely, Mr. President, for the morale factor moved into the private schools already.

I think you're an honorary member of the Knights of Columbus now.

But I would like to say that private schools want to be part of the solution and not part of the problem.

that I hear around the table this morning leads me to believe that maybe the most optimistic thing I see on the horizon is an IE.

There have to be answers to financing education.

For those that may not know it, the private school contribution to education is about $5 billion a year.

We're dying, as Mr. President knows,

I don't think the effort of NIE ought to be to preserve the private school system.

It ought to be to find new and different ways to educate people.

So I see down the horizon something that looks to me like a half school or a shared time school, and I'm sure that the private sector would buy that entirely.

I'm not de-emphasizing the need for money, but I think there are other ways of finding educational programs that we haven't yet hit upon.

I'm particularly happy, Mr. President, with the work that Mr. McElroy is doing, because I think it's extremely important that we look at the overall finances.

I would close with just this little remark that I, too, am most grateful for what Commissioner Marvin has done for Secretary Richardson.

And I can't help but think that Sid Marvin echoes very much your theme.

He has brought us together because I, too, treasure the fact that I can call Mr. Marvin and tell him what our problems are.

Even though the press maybe doesn't always echo it, in 95% of the things, the private sector works for the public sector.

You're great to me.

You're gonna work a long day, that's why you take all those calls.

I tried to say one thing, and Travis made the time, I said that he's the only one who is the president around here.

He was the president of the organizations, including the Congress of Activities.

Mr. President, I invited Ruth Holloway here because I wanted you to know her and see her, but you can see Ruth and me most any time.

These other gentlemen don't come to Washington every day, so I want to ask Ruth to comment.

I know that she'll be available to you and to Mr. Ehrlichman.

at any hour of any day to keep you posted.

I'm ready to read, so we're down to our anchorman, I think, Floyd.

Floyd Christian speaks for the three state school offices, and the reason I suggest that Floyd be last is that the actual superintendents, the state school commissioners, Mr. President, that is the state, the three state school offices, the governor's side, and the principal education in California, for example, will be a superintendent of education.

Most of you are elected.

About to add to that, Mr. President,

And, in a sense, the reason I suggest to Floyd to wrap this up is that under the law and under the Constitution, ultimately, resides the responsibility at the state level from the leaders like Floyd.

That's right.

Mr. President, let me say for all of our colleagues that this is a very important day to us.

I hope it has been profitable to you.

We think it's very important.

I wanted to hit on some special programs that we think are important.

You mentioned revenue sharing.

I think you should know that the chiefs, I speak of the states that have done this, as a result of the secretary's meeting with us in Miami last year, were 100% endorsed the revenue sharing, special revenue sharing program.

We feel that categorical aid has outlived its usefulness.

The guidelines, the red tape, it's really a lot of red tape to get the money.

And we hope that we can assist you

And more important, the California decision opens some doors for tax reform.

Our state has been sued, Florida's been sued.

We've got a suit coming up and there'll be others.

But I think we'll make this capital on tax thing, people have to look at it again.

And this means that it'll open the door for revenue sharing in a way that all these people have mentioned here too.

So it's probably a good thing.

I think the California decision is a shocker in a way because

We all get used to a certain method of finance, but sometimes when you've got some, it's like our, I had to talk to the International Monetary Fund yesterday, and our having to impose a 10% surcharge and letting the dollar float is a concrete event.

But we have a lousy system at the present time.

One that was good 25 years ago when the United States produced 50% of the world's goods.

and one that is inadequate for today, so we had to get stock treatment in order to get a reform.

Now the California institution, while it's something that's going to make life a little bit more uncertain than the rest, it may shock us into looking for different sources of revenue.

That's exactly what we're saying, that it will bring about a state reform and we think the states will have to do something and the federal government will have to do something

There is no question.

There is no equal educational opportunity where you have a tax base of so small in one area and a real high in a suburban area.

And you can see this without talking about it.

So we support this program 100%.

If you get to do anything, 100% is where you ought to do it.

Another thing that we might have talked to people today.

There are a couple of other special programs that I mentioned to the president.

In March of 1970, you made a speech, you asked us for education we can remember, new directions, changes, and improvement.

Now we've accepted this challenge of yours, Secretary, Commissioner,

And reforms are being made in education as a result of the fine leadership that we receive.

They're being made in Florida.

They're being made all over this nation.

I wanted to mention a couple to you, and I hope you'll have your support.

High up on the list of achievers is career education.

Opportunities to work in the field of the world of work for young people that are not college-bound.

Vocational education.

We need some help and guidance and counseling so that these people go into the right programs.

Now, this is right in your backyard, as you said before, and this is one of the high charges in Dr. Holloway's program.

Getting a reform reading program in our states is very important.

I hope your reader books this day.

It's a very wonderful thing.

Then I want to mention one more that's on the hill.

This is your kiddo.

that we support very, very much, and that's the $1.5 billion on the Emergency Assistance Act.

We think this bill is greatly needed in the states.

It seems to be bogged down after it got out of the Senate for many reasons.

I don't know whether it's going to get out.

But let me say this to you, Mr. President.

We've been able to manage the question of busing in our states

with state plans under the Emergency Assistance Act now without having to send in a plan to ask for buses.

I think this bill is so important and it could not be lost.

The chiefs want this bill.

They need this money.

It is a social reform that's needed in American schools.

We hope that we will have your support to get it off of the hill.

I don't think the amendment, I'd like to have it without the amendment, but regardless.

We need the money.

We'd like to have it without it.

I may not get it without it, but even with it, we've got enough flexibility in state and local funds that we can use the money, Mr. President.

And it's important that we have the money.

If you've got the money, you can find other ways.

That's exactly what happened.

That's a very practical problem.

Actually, I know that all of you were

I'm very aware of the differences on the busing and their honest differences and so forth.

But we have to realize that it not only is just a southern problem, but after the Detroit decision, after the Boston, and there, Elliot, I was just hearing about the coast at the end of the day, you now have a situation where I have very serious doubts that you would get the one and a half billion.

without an amendment such as we have.

We may have a very practical matter, and we can talk about the fact that we ought to do this or that idealistically, but do you need the money?

We'll take it, Mr. President.

One way or the other, we need the money, and that's it.

I wanted to make clear to you that it is needed by the school systems in America to do the job.

I won't talk too long, but one of the things that's been mentioned here has been disturbing to me, and I think there is some question about the polls, but in the South, in my state, there has been a loss of confidence in public education.

I believe it's due to many factors, maybe the busing, the drugs, the dress, the taxes, the war, many other things, many of which we do not have control, and you do not have control.

But I would like to see the President speak out, and as you have on many issues, Mark, for the Public Schools of America, that have been the backbone of democracy, that have kept us free.

I know what an enthusiastic fan the President is about football.

I've watched him on TV and the other Arkansas teams.

But, you know, a football team without a good quarterback suffers on Sunday afternoon.

We need you for our quarterback right now.

We need you to speak out for public education.

And I think with your speaking out, many of the bills and many of the other things will come through.

We are very grateful for this opportunity.

Thank you, Mr. President.

Well, I would like to say that, yes, I've been speaking for a long, long time.

the fact that he was the deputy inspector director.

And I can also assure you that your conference and Dr. Martin's also, they're very confident that they have my confidence and also they have my ears.

So whenever they ask, they can say what matters more than something else.

And also I can do something else.

Whenever I can, I doubt it.

So they're very able to act.

I don't have to dot every I across every T. So we have this kind of duty.

I want you to know that we have great confidence in these two people.

Of course, that plan is on the go.

Also, the chairman of the investment council, I have to mention this, he has your, you have his ear, he has mine.

If there's any questions, we all agree on a whole objective.

The real problem I hear, as you well stated, is to find a method for enhancing education that will enable us to sell the people

on the idea of greater support.

And it does get down to that.

You can't ask a retired person in the community to raise his property tax double, triple, and so forth when he's on a fixed income in order to build a better school.

You can, you do.

And he pays it usually, but it's pretty tough.

That's what's happening in many of these places.

All this in mind, the main idea is that Mr. McElroy's offer will be helpful in that field.

Of course, never mind your other suggestions, too.

I'd like to leave you a little memento.

I know you're, you got a bite of dinner.

So, buddy, you're going back to Florida, correct?

We always get these people that are out in Vegas, all of you are, and come to Washington in your home.

These are the presidential couplers.

They don't look very expensive, but you don't have to report them.

It's the presidential seal for the men, and that's because we've never discriminated against women in the Supreme Court.

This is the same thing with a little boat.

And I guess for all of you, I know this is a group that is not partisan, but I always remind you that any of you can wear these because they don't have my name on them.

Thank you very much for your time.

I will be very grateful.

so we can get some legislation.

Well, that means, okay, you're recording the kids because you're gonna get the reading.

Well, it's coming up.

He was optimistic as some people are.

Yes, that was interesting.

I'd like to add a word on my own behalf for the opportunity to hear this group.

I think this is

As you just said, we will be following this up.

The rest of the priority in this situation, and your awareness of that priority, as it applies to the schools and ed.

Correct.

He advises his commission to find a better way.

No question about our being a priority in education.

It's a question of .

It's good for us to hear that, Mr. Presley.

H.G.

Wells probably overstated his outline, as you know, but the enormous influence on, I mean, emphasis on education, indicating that education will solve all the problems in the world.

The United Nations will solve the problems, as I said, many, many years ago, and unfortunately, the problems in the world will never be solved, because that isn't something which is ideal, but it's something

But he did say something that in general we could all agree with, that race and education and disaster, catastrophe, and this becomes particularly true as we look around the world today.

So what is, of course, the kind of education?

How effective is the quality of education?

Just educating parents more and more, less and less than what we're looking at.

Thank you very much.

Thank you.

Thank you all very much.

But I wouldn't want to leave the impression that there's something on fire right now that is likely to break.

But I do want you to say that the negotiating track is still open.

how long remains over, of course.

Now it becomes sharply reduced every month that goes by, because you see as we reduce the number of forces we got there, there isn't a hell of a lot to negotiate about.

Then you finally come down to these people and what you do about it.

Now there's something else that you can do something else and crawl to.

They would well know that.

Now, you know that the other day, for example, when they were building up in the DMZ, and somebody slew about it, and I ordered an airstrike on the southern part of the town.

That's all Chinese.

They've got to know there's just a sin in the table.

If they don't, then they will make us wrong.

That's why I've got to play with them a lot.

And all of us can just continue to support them.

Well, they ought to remember that the question is not between an imperfect election and a perfect one, but between an imperfect one and none.

And that's what's involved.

And also that they do have a House of Representatives apartment we just selected where over a third are opponents of the government.

And 28 out of 31 of the half of the Senate have met with the government.

I mean, that they have a free press.

They raise hell down there all the time, you know.

And then the other point that I'd like to make is this, and I really feel pretty strongly about this.

You know, there are a lot of calls that are, I hope I'm not, I've watched all of you have said this, but a lot of people have been urging to cut off 80 degrees because they don't like their government.

You know what I mean?

I mean, it's because we prefer that they have a democratic government.

And then they, and then somebody's put in something, we should cut off aid to South Vietnam because they do not have a president who was elected in the contested election.

So as I parted on the president for the day and say again, we start down that road of cutting off aid to governments that do not have leaders elected in the contested election.

You know what that means?

We would have to cut off aid to 61 of the 91 countries we get aid to today.

There are only 30 countries, by any stretch of the imagination, that at the present time have leaders elected in a contested election.

Let me tell you my part, folks.

You realize what I mean?

You have to cut off aid, and this will get you home, in every country in Africa.

Not only that, you know, if there's not one leader in black Africa that is there as a result of a contested election, not one, and there won't be, my opinion, for 50 years.

It takes time to develop this.

It's going to take time to be enough.

Now, we wish it were different.

But look how long it took for us.

Washington.

You didn't have opposition the first few times around, did you ever?

Matter of fact, Monroe didn't want that.

You know, in these early times, it's a...

So I don't buy this business about the double standard.

If you want to carry a little bit further, you're going to have to cut off a four-decker Caloosie Allen.

But I've had opposition for once in six years.

Don't spend these dollars.

These are...

Thank you very much.

Uh, sometimes I'll explain it to you.

All right.