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Hello.

I've reached Dr. Monaghan for you, sir.

Hello.

Good morning, Mr. President.

Where are you?

I'm in New York writing a speech, which I'm going to give today at the United Nations and give the Russians a little hell, son of a bitch.

Right.

Good.

Have you got a minute, or is this bad time?

I do, sir.

In fact, I'm writing a speech, and I'm delivering tonight at 7.30, so we're right in the middle of it.

But it's brief, so you can listen.

Fourteen minutes.

Is your retention time that long?

Don't admit it.

The reason I called you, as a matter of fact, I sort of read things from then, but when I was in Florida going over to Walker's,

I read with great interest your piece from the UN, you know, on Herrnstein's piece, you know, that I'd passed on to you.

Let me say first of all, nobody in the staff even knows I read the goddamn article.

Oh, good.

And nobody in this staff is going to know anything about it, because I couldn't agree more with you that the Herrnstein stuff and all the rest...

First, nobody must think we're thinking about it.

And second, if we do find out it's correct, we must never tell anybody.

I'm afraid that's just the case.

That's right.

Now, let me add a few things, and you might just make some mental notes about it or anything you want.

Sorry, I'll give you my own views.

I've reluctantly concluded, based at least on the evidence presently before me, and I don't base it on any scientific evidence, that

that what Herrnstein says, and also what was said earlier by Jensen and so forth, is probably very close to the truth now.

I think that's where you'd have to be as an outsider.

Now, having said that, then you copper that by saying something that the racists would never agree with,

within groups there are geniuses.

There are geniuses within black groups.

There are more within Asian groups.

And, incidentally, it was a rather neat trick to point out that the Asians are number one and the Caucasians are number two.

And the Eskimos.

And the Eskimos are above the whites, which is good.

And also your little deal about the English and the Irish.

Now, that is the best example of the fact

This is knowledge, but it is knowledge that it is better not to know.

At least, good God, it would cause another war.

They haven't enough damn problems in Northern Ireland now.

Exactly.

And basically there are Irish geniuses.

Well, I think you've got a few Irish presidents.

Yeah, that's right.

Well, Burke wasn't bad.

No, this is not bad.

Some of the liberals said.

Now, so let me say that in getting this knowledge, and that's the point that I, and you're welcome to pass this on to Herrnstein as we talk.

In getting this knowledge, I think the reason I have to know it is that as I go for programs, I must know that

that they have basic weaknesses.

Did you read Glazer's piece and commentary recently?

Yes, sir, The Limits of Social Policies.

Yes, indeed, sir.

And, you know, he didn't come out against family assistance, but he just raised a hell of a lot of questions about it.

He said, well, it's already got it in New York and isn't working and so forth and so on.

But you respect Glazer, don't you?

Oh, he's my very dear friend.

Yeah.

Sure.

Well, tell him I read his piece, too.

Oh, certainly.

He feels that what he meant was that family assistance should not be

We should not expect it to change the world.

But what he meant, what was interesting to me was that he said that even in Sweden, the ultimate example, and in Britain, the less ultimate example, that they still have a tremendous emphasis on the work ethic.

In other words, that going on welfare just sort of ain't the thing people ought to do.

Now, that is, of course, the reason why the work requirement thing is so important here.

I mean, everybody says, well, God, you can't, the work requirement's only for the purpose of making these poor, poor colored women, you know, who can't work and with little babies coming every month, or every nine months, I believe.

Anyway, whatever the case is, you can't make them work.

Well, now, that isn't it.

The whole point is that, as you well know, that we just have not got to sort of get into the psychology of

that, well, that welfare is a good way of life.

That is, that's where the working poor comes in, etc., etc.

And the point about family assistance is it gives an alternative to welfare as a way of life.

Exactly.

Well, now, coming on to the other points, on the other side, and here's where I think we have to bear in mind, we've got to realize on family assistance, on anything we do,

the limits of social policy.

If we don't, we're going to raise expectations and then have the dull thud.

That was the problem with Johnson.

Johnson, he took your Howard University speech and he carried out a lot of things, but

I really don't, and I don't think he did it deliberately.

I think Johnson probably convinced himself all this stuff was going to work.

You agree?

Can I just say one thing, sir?

Yeah.

One of the fascinating things is in 1967, he announced a great program of new towns in town to start building cities in town.

Oh, yeah.

and you had to deal with the ends of it.

In 1968, the beginning, he sent a message to Congress in which he said, even now, a new town is rising on the site of Fort Lincoln in the city of Washington, D.C. At that moment, not a single spade of earth had been turned.

He didn't know it.

He thought it was going on.

It still hasn't been, incidentally.

Now, coming to the other point,

A couple of questions.

Has Coleman demonstrated the fact that where you put blacks, or for that matter, underprivileged Chicanos or anybody else, blacks in with whites integrated, that it raises the blacks and does not bring down the whites?

Is that clear?

Yes, up to a point of... Now, the second point I raised then, and I raised this, and this is really hitting at the nerve center.

Is this true when you have an integrated faculty?

Now, let's suppose.

Let's take, for example, where my daughter was teaching.

She broke her foot.

Let's suppose, Pat, that you've got a black, graduated from a good black college in the South, teaching English.

Now, do you believe that she can teach English?

We've got some...

I don't know.

Could I ask to send you a short note on this?

Because we can give you fairly exact answers.

Mosteller and I have a big, enormous book coming out

in a few months, redoing the whole Coleman data.

Coleman had to do his analysis in about five months.

And we've redone it all, and he's done it with us, and we know more now.

I can give you good answers to that.

Let me first of all say that the main thing that matters is the other students that child is with.

I see.

And the teachers matter very little, the classrooms matter not at all.

Oh, I see.

The kids teach the kids.

The kids set standards for each other.

But maybe what you've got to do, though, is if you're going to have incompetent teachers, is to go for more television aides and all that sort of stuff.

Well, maybe I would give the mothers money, frankly.

We have absolutely no evidence that any increase in school expenditure makes much difference.

And I should have to say to you very clearly, because we say this in this new book, that you raise the level of lower class kids a little bit, not a lot, but a little bit, when you put them in with other kids.

But if you put middle class kids in with a majority of lower class kids, you lower the middle class achievement without raising

the upper, the lower class kids.

I see.

What really raised them is the bright kids.

Right.

And the not-so-bright kids have to be in a minority.

Yeah.

If they're a majority, they swamp everything.

That seems to be... Oh, yeah.

That's right.

That's why they... That's why that in the North...

where as you know now those astounding statistics where as a result of what we the agony that 38 integrated in california 38 percent of all black children in the south go to majority white schools 28 percent of all black children in the north go to majority white now that is a hell of an indictment and you did it that's right now coming on a few things that

Also, on with regard to your theories, I've noticed that none of you have used this, and I'm not getting into what Agnew said about black leaders because in this sense he's wrong.

Have in mind one fact.

Did you realize there is not, of the 40 or 45, you're at the United Nations, black countries that are represented there, not one has

a president or a prime minister who is there as a result of a contested election such as we were in Vietnam.

My God.

There aren't any.

I mean, Liberia.

Now, that's ours.

We've got 150 years.

How the hell is that?

No, Talbert is the son-in-law of the other fella.

He's an awful nice fella.

And let's look at Mobutu in the Congo.

Kenyatta.

All of their leaders, Pat.

Now, let's take Haiti.

Haiti's right our neighbor here.

Now, what I'm simply saying now is this.

I'm not saying that blacks cannot govern.

I am saying they have a hell of a time.

Now, that must demonstrate something.

Now, having said that,

Let's look at Latin America.

Latin America's had 150 years of trying at it, and they don't have much going down there either.

Mexico is a one-party government.

Colombia, they trade it off every two years.

Venezuela is tip-de-toe, and the rest are dictatorships except for Allende, which is a communist dictatorship.

Elected, but communist.

Now, let me come back to another point.

Within that scheme, this thought, and I think you might want to do a little piece on this sometime, is my, I think you may have heard me tell of my conversation with Munoz Marine, who incidentally was capable of governing.

Yes.

You know, I think you'd think well of him.

And 58, after Lima and Caracas, I stopped there.

And he and I talked all night, you know, he drinking his scotch and all, and he really lived it up.

And I tried to keep up with him, practically dead.

But he made a very interesting point very late, early in the early morning hours.

He said, look, he says, I shouldn't say this.

He said, but Mr. Vice President, my people have many fine qualities.

I mean, they're courteous, they're good family people in the arts and, you know, philosophy, etc.

But he said, I will have to admit, my people, speaking of Latins generally, have never been very good at government.

Now, let's look at that.

The Italians aren't any good at government.

The Spanish aren't any good at government.

The French have had a hell of a time, and they're half Latin.

And all of Latin America is not any good at government.

They either go to one extreme or the other.

It's either a family, well, three extremes, family oligarchy or a dictatorship, or a dictatorship on the right or one on the left.

Very seldom in the center.

Now, having said all that,

However, as you compare the Latin dictatorships, governments, etc., and their forms of government, they at least do it their way.

It is an orderly way, which works relatively well.

They have been able to run the damn place.

Looking at the black countries, of course, there are only two old ones.

Haiti is an old one.

And Liberia is a very old one.

Ethiopia is a very old one.

But they have a hell of a time running the place.

It's a pretty miserable world.

Now, you look at Asia, and you can say, well, what about out there?

You don't have democracies, of course.

You don't except Japan, where we imposed it, and the Philippines, and it's a hell of a mess.

But on the other hand, Thailand, with its oligarchy,

has the right kind of a government for Thailand.

And we have to say, too, that Iran, with a benevolent Shah...

Pretty well.

With a benevolent Shah, that's the right thing for those folks, I think.

Now, what I'm getting back a long way around is this.

I think something could be... that is eventually going to come out here is this, that... and it's right beneath the surface, this whole black-white deal is going to come out, the fact that...

Asians are capable of governing themselves one way or another.

We and Caucasians have learned it after slaughtering each other in religious wars and other wars for many, many years, including a couple in the last century.

The Latins do it in a miserable way, but they do it.

But the Africans just can't run things.

Now, this is a very, very fundamental point in the international scene.

See my point?

Oh, boy, you sure see it around this place.

Well, yeah, of course you do.

You see them.

You know, I have mixed feelings.

I receive their ambassadors.

They change all the time, and I've had them.

I love them.

They're so kind and so nice.

And they're children.

And they always want something like children.

Oh, God, yes, they want.

What can you do?

I know, but what I meant is it's so childlike, the childlike faith in the child, this and that.

And, of course, a lot of them are crooks, but we have crooks, too.

But anyway, what I'm getting at is I think you've got in the field of business, you've got the field of education and so on and so forth.

There are many other areas, as you've well pointed out, where they can beat the hell out of us.

Now, and they should be proud of those.

Athletics isn't a bad achievement.

I mean, you look at the World Series, for God's sakes, and what would either of these teams done without, what would Pittsburgh be without a hell of a lot of blacks, huh?

And music, the dance.

Now, and these things, are they to be therefore just pissed upon?

Hell no.

They're important.

And also, also,

In certain areas, poetry, etc., they have a free and easy style that adds enormously to our culture.

But on the other hand, when you get to some of the more, shall we say, some of the more profound, rigid disciplines, basically, they have a hell of a time making it.

And Ed Brook, for example, is an exception.

We've got to face it.

In terms of good lawyers...

There are damn few good lawyers among any group, but among terms of good lawyers, even though a lot of them go to law schools, I mean, it is not really their dish of tea.

See?

Mm-hmm.

Now, that's a fact.

Mm-hmm.

We've got Brooke and we've got that fellow, the head of the Equal Opportunities, the thin fellow from Philadelphia, you know.

He's got it.

Now, having said that, you have a hell of a time also with a lot of Mexicans.

I mean, they're coming up.

But on the other hand, they have the stuff.

Your culture-free tests are very interesting to me.

That, as I understand it, is basically an IQ test, which basically...

It doesn't require you to know a damn thing before you take it.

It presumes that you know no language.

Well, that's good.

You see, that you can't speak, I mean, it doesn't require that you...

It's the only... You know, that you don't have to speak English or Spanish or Eskimo.

The only fair kind of a test.

Now, let me tell you what my theory is after all this.

My theory is that the responsibility of a president in my present position, first, is to know these things.

Right.

But also, my theory is that I must do everything that I possibly can to deny them.

Yes, sir.

To deny them, because you cannot tell.

Let me say, here was my quarrel with Muskie on the vice president thing, and I didn't quarrel with him.

I refused to comment.

They asked me what I'd said, and I just repeated what I said in 1968 when I was commenting on Brooke.

I said he could be in any position.

My theory is this.

If you were to look cynically at a poll in depth that is absolutely private as to whether or not a black would or would not add to a ticket, you might well find that a black would subtract.

No leader must ever say that.

Because if he says that, he is condemning a great segment of the population.

He shouldn't say that no Jew.

Now, I think you could make a hell of a case that a Jew, not one like Goldwater, who's basically a Gentile, I mean, by religion, but a Jew...

might detract.

There are some anti-Semitic people, but nobody must ever say that.

You must not say that a Catholic would hurt you in Oklahoma.

You must not say that.

The point that I make is, we have to realize that because if we do not, if we do not,

We are going to encourage what is a latent prejudice among all of us.

In other words, it's the unthinkable.

Do you agree with me?

It's unthinkable.

And when somebody says, well, it's honest to get up and say, well, sure, a black shouldn't be on the ticket.

The hell it's honest.

And it can be what we call a self-fulfilling prophecy.

You take, for example, a woman in the Supreme Court.

Now, if you were to poll the people in this country, all the people,

A great majority would be against a woman on the court.

I mean, they don't have that much confidence in women.

However, among women, there's a hell of a feeling that there should be one.

All right.

My point is, no one should ever say that a woman should not be on the Supreme Court.

Correct?

Correct.

So you see what I'm getting at is that we're on exactly the same wavelength.

I'm putting it out all over this place that we have got to proceed on the assumption that

Not that everybody is equal, but that everybody should have an equal opportunity, and that anybody might go to the top.

And God knows he might.

A Brooke could, you know.

Exactly.

See?

Could I say two things quickly?

Right.

First, you know, one of the things that a president can do so well is to reward the achievement where it does occur.

Right.

Here at the United Nations, we have two Americans, both very sick.

About to retire.

They're the only two Americans in the Secretary.

Ralph Bunche?

Ralph Bunche and Paul Hoffman.

Well, I've already had Hoffman down.

Is there any possibility, would you ever give the, I noticed, and I was so... Bunche, Medal of Freedom?

The Medal of Freedom to Broseau.

I bet, I think Bunche has it.

See, he got a Nobel Prize.

Well, you can, there are, there are... Ah, check it out.

You can give him a higher degree of the Medal of Freedom.

uh i'll check it out i'll check it out to see i think and i think houghton has it but i but i'll check with bunch on it some kind of recognition right it'd be very easy very easy and if we don't give him mental freedom we could just get him down and thank him yeah i'm not even sure you can do that he's so too sick but you could probably do it you know you can do it is he in a hospital yes and he sometimes is sort of completely

yeah i know lost consciousness or lost lost awareness well we went out though and gave one to sam goldwyn sure the other thing two other things first i will get you a uh if can you stand a short memorandum of those questions you asked me yeah yeah just get to those for my own information and any other another thing when this un thing is over if if i could have maybe two or three uh well 10 15 minutes with you to talk about the pakistan situation i'm deeply concerned

And I think within the year's time, you might want to have to do something.

It's a tough one.

It's a very tough one.

Be sure you hear, be sure, though, this is just for balance, and I have mixed feelings on it.

Be sure you don't get it just from the Indians.

They're terrific salesmen.

Oh, Jesus, God, no.

Because they are blowing up the damn boats and everything.

Oh, absolutely.

But I'd love to talk to you about it.

Now, let me come before we come to that thing.

First, on the legislative program, the National Institute is in.

Yes, isn't that good?

I mean, what I meant is, I raised that question when we met with the education leaders the other day, and Elliot Richardson says, we got it.

I don't know when it's going to come in, but it's in.

Apparently it got through the House committee a few days after I read it.

To the Office of Child Development, I'd like for you to give it a kick.

I mean, I'd like for you, if you would, to give Elliot a call.

Yes.

And also give Marlon, who's a fine fellow, a call.

Tell him that I was talking to you and said, what the hell became of the first five years of life?

Okay.

You just tell him and call.

And then, don't worry, that'll stir him up.

All right, sir.

Third, on the secondary school education, we spent half of our time in our meeting with educators on that.

The most profound thing you say in there is that,

The one job we do worst in this country is turning boys into men.

We've got to connect up the world of school with the world of work.

We've got to get through that one line.

We have got to connect up the world of school with the world of work, and high school is where to do it.

Now, we just have one hell of a time here that everybody's going to college and we're running out of our year with PhDs and this and that and the other thing.

And nobody wants to work.

And the kids don't know how to work.

I know.

It's not like you watch your father from the time you're four and then you know.

You know what I mean on this whole business of menial work and so forth.

Bob Allman is talking about his plumber and he says, God, he's Jill Johnson.

He works four days a week.

He makes $30,000 a year.

I mean, he takes off a month in the winter and a month in the summer.

And he has no responsibilities whatever.

What the hell now?

Just to make the goddamn toilet flush, that's not bad.

Huh?

Listen, can I mention that we had this conversation, too, with Elliot, about the World of Work thing?

That's right.

The secondary schools.

The work thing, I know he agreed to it, but the secondary school thing is important for the reason that the educators came down, Pat, and you can imagine the NEA and all the rest, all they talked about was more money.

They didn't talk about reform.

They were for the Institute, but more money, and they didn't talk enough about this whole...

The word vocation I know is a bad word, but they do not.

They don't want that because the bastards don't teach it anymore.

They don't even teach hygiene anymore.

And they go around wondering why 25% of the kids are unemployed.

Now, they have got to start teaching that.

And, you know, Finch, that was one of his major contributions.

He gave that a hell of a kick in the ass.

And we got a few junior colleges.

But would you tell Marlon and the rest that I am very disturbed about the fact that we are going hog wild on education.

And, you know, we're going to put a lot more in it, believe me, because it's a big lobby and the rest.

what in the hell are we doing the institute will help over the long run the right to read thing for example is that's that's just rumbling along with nothing being done and that's terribly important but when we really come down to what are we doing in the high schools with these the great majority of our kids who basically

do not have what it takes, and will never have it, to sit behind desks.

Now, all you do is to destroy those kids, and so they go on dope.

Why should they be miserable when they can do an honest work?

Sure, and they'll love it and be proud of it.

Be proud of it.

I will do that.

Can I just say to you that the New Yorker is running three long, long sections about family assistance.

I think you will be pleased because they are really astounded as they found out what you'd done.

They just didn't believe it.

They said, really?

The other thing is that I will, this Pakistan thing, I'm thinking about it from the terms of the Pakistanis who I think may need your help and advice.

Yeah.

And if I could trouble you, after you come back from China and things like that, perhaps... What?

That may be too late.

Why don't you come down in a month?

All right.

After the U.N. session.

After the session?

No, no, no.

Before?

As the session is ending, sort of?

In December, maybe?

December is a good time.

All right.

December or November, even.

If you've got thoughts, come down in November.

That may be better.

All right.

I'll tell Bob Haldeman...

I'll tell Bob, and also we've got to get Henry in this, because he's very close to the Pakistan ambassador and the Indian ambassador, and we're working like hell on it, and with...

You know, we put in $250 million more, but that isn't going to do any good.

It'll feed them.

Well, it's not as much.

No one else has done anything yet.

It'll feed them, yeah.

Mr. President, you're doing wonderfully.

Are you feeling as good as you sound?

I'm fine.

And we're working on a lot of things, and incidentally...

Some developments next week may be of very great interest up in your shop.

Well, I'll look forward to that.

Yeah.

Okay.

How do you like what you're doing?

Well, I like the U.N., and I'm trying to keep out of George Bush's hair and do the things that he has time for.

And I'm about to make a very nasty speech to the Russians, who gave a pistol over us the other day.

pointing out there are trade union protests in this country against the Nixon administration.

Now, isn't that a goddamn shame?

I am going to say to them that I can see they would be surprised coming from a country where the last trade union protest was in 1917.

Okay.

Don't think about that.

Okay.

Thank you, sir.

All right.